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Something Did Change”
(4 votes, average: 5 out of 5)
Loading ...Ever since Flight #316 landed on Hydra Island, I wasn’t convinced that those who landed there were actually in the year of 2008. The reasons were the magazines about ‘Jughead’ from 1954, the Dharma training manuals and maps displayed throughout the office, as if it all had been left neatly in place. I’m pretty sure somebody would have moved the magazines in 54 years! None of these things were present during any of the episodes we viewed during Season 3, during ‘the others’ reign on Hydra Island.
I was convinced it was an earlier time frame, and would have continued to believe it, were it not for one huge glaring detail. The runway! I couldn’t have argued that fact, even if I tried!
We found out in ‘Namaste’ that 2008 was the correct timeline on Hydra Island. I was still left with an unsettling feeling that something wasn’t quite right, and the latter part of the episode continued to confirm these suspicions.
When Sun and Frank landed on the main ‘island’, we see the disarray on the dock. No real mystery here as, Keamy and company left quite a mess when they launched the attack. The former Dharma barracks, at quick glance appear to be in similar condition after the attack, until you really take a closer look.
Previously, in ‘Otherville’ village there weren’t any visible indications of the Dharma Initiative having ever been present, such as group pictures on the wall, or the signs hanging outside on the buildings, or inside of the buildings for that matter, throughout the seasons. After all, why would there be? I rather doubt Ben would want any reminders of Dharma’s presence, considering his feelings about them. I think ‘the others’ would share Ben’s sentiments. Dharma had been wiped out, so why keep any evidence or unnecessary mementos of them around. It was now ‘the others’ new home.
Considering Jack spent time in ‘Otherville’ village, as did ‘the losties’ that remained with John Locke prior to the battle with the ‘freighter folk’, they would have absolutely and unequivocally seen pictures of either themselves hanging on the walls, or of their fellow ‘losties’ and some of the same evidence of Dharma’s existence that was present when Sun and Frank arrived. No question and no doubt about it! The fact that they didn’t discover anything indicates that change did occur.
Something has changed, in the present 2008 where Sun & Frank currently are. If nothing had changed, we would have seen the leftover effects of the battle between ‘the freighter folk’ and ‘the losties’, without any of the Dharma pictures, mementos and signs. It should have resembled ‘Otherville’ village not ‘Dharmaville’. This begs the question, what future 2008 is Sun and Frank in? Because it certainly wasn’t the future they should have been in, if nothing changed.
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About dabiatchishere:
~ Contrary to popular misconception, karma has nothing to do with punishment and reward. It exists as part of our holographic universe’s binary or dualistic operating system only to teach us responsibility for our creations—and all things we experience are our creations. ~
Post count: 42 | Comment count: 3051
@08:48:08
Very well articulated. I have had the same lingering thoughts, but wasn’t sure what it meant. But I know you are right. So I guess the next question is “Did whatever happen, happen?”. Or will things be course corrected.
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@08:52:14
Well, the area right there near the dock where Sun and Frank found Christian is not the barracks. The barracks are a bit removed from where the dock is. At first glance the building Christian takes them to looks like the rec room but it’s actually the welcome center.
Good points and good supporting evidence. I still think it’s an apparition just like Jacobs cabin. I suppose time will tell.
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@08:54:39
hmmm i think whatever happened happened with regards to important events, while details like how a building looks can change. but well see
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@08:56:00
lost4815162342, I think this was the major hint, the writers were giving to the viewers, that if “whatever happened, happened”, why are things appearing so differently.
Those who have flashed back to the past, should have altered NOTHING, if this statement were true.
Or, is ‘course correction’ what saves this outcome we see, or is this what occurred anyway.
Is this the reason why ‘the losties’ are needed in the past? To effect a different outcome from what we just saw.
It is worthy of our attention.
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@08:56:56
highbrow, I won’t attempt to persuade you of anything!
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@08:59:38
ekolocation, are you suggesting that pictures hang themselves on the walls?
For all of you people who subscribe to my most hated line in Lost ever, “Whatever Happened, Happened”, it would behoove you, not to take this line, literally! It’s as flawed as Faraday!
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@09:01:14
That’s probably a good idea. I, in turn, won’t try to persuade you either.
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@09:11:24
I like it Dabs
I too noticed the signs and think it is the outcome of the losties either keeping Ben on dharma’s side or them being the preventer of Ben’s purge. This could be why the barracks are still Dharma and the reason why they’re abandoned is because they simply couldn’t rectify the birth situation and maybe gave it up to be a lost cause….thus leaving the island…..and never being able too find it again.
Good thougts anyway Dabs….you should defo stick with this one and roll with it.
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@09:16:56
Thanks Wesley! I like your thoughts, and they could turn out to be the case.
I guess it is too soon to tell what created this outcome, and what caused it, and/or if this is the change they are trying to effect.
I’ll stick with it, and ‘roll with it’ as you say, until someone can prove otherwise, or the show explains it.
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@09:20:51
I had the exact same thoughts as you Dabs as soon as i saw the Welcome centre and was writing a question if anyone had noticed it.
But as you said how do you argue the runway? The Hydra station (if thats where Caesar was searching through) looked run down and left in a hurry.
Another point being that the runway was still being built in Se3 and it looked pretty much finished when Lapidus was belly flopping his plane down. Could they be in another/new 2008?
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@09:23:22
we’ve seen this before in cases where picture frames would change etc. i do believe subtle things can change, and i also think the Island time is totally disconnected from real world time and has no direct relationship to real world time. what your suggesting is a major change, which is possible, but we need to see more evidence. have jack and the gang in the picture from 77 could be easily explained as what happened happened or something has changed.
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@09:30:09
Whatever happened, happened is in my opinion, incorrect. Even Farraday himself, says the rules don’t apply to Desmond. Ms. Hawking says things can be changed but will be course corrected. It doesn’t make sense in the real world, but in fiction, I guess can be used. I have stated before that I believe this story will end with something huge changing. Or at least something major(in a bad way) that is supposed to happen, will be changed or avoided.
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@09:31:41
In response to highbrow, I certainly cannot prove its not an apparition. Maybe we’ll get some hints next time we see Sun and Frank.
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@09:33:30
Mayhaps, mayhaps… That scene didn’t really end… I think tonight (hopefully tonight) we’ll see it extended out.. Or maybe Sun and Frank will leave and try to come back but it won’t be there.
Or maybe I’m wrong. Stranger things have happened. Not often, but they have.
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@09:40:05
I think we have to remember the island is 3 years down the line too and although I think the future has changed I doubt whether there would still be evidence of keamy kickin around. I think ben has been acutely aware of what would happen if john left and this is why he took his place. He did not expect john to follow however realizes he can help back on the island. Ben knew something would happen to the losties upon returning and hence going back to get them to return means he could go back to the island in 2008 without the losties. Sorry if I m rambling trying to do this on my phone. Did ben mean to set the fdw off it’s axis?
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@09:47:44
bigdaveg, I recall that post! It took seeing the episode twice, and following through on the thoughts I had about the ‘Hydra’ station to convince me, something wasn’t right.
I do think wherever Sun & Frank are, they are in a ‘2008′ that is different. So, the ‘what’ changed that, has to lie in the past!
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@09:50:14
uusername, It is a HUGE change, but isn’t that the entire purpose of ‘the losties’ returning to the past?
In order to subscribe to this theory, one has to throw out the window, Faraday’s statement. It is a clever ruse, to keep viewers away from seeing what is really happening, IMO.
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@09:50:53
highbrow, ‘who loves you baby’? Don’t ever change! lol
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@09:54:52
Maybe we’re both right. Maybe the Losties in the past changed things and that caused Jacob’s Cabin to become the DHARMA Welcome Center instead of Horace’s cabin for the missus.
How’s that for middle ground?
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@09:55:59
GK21, I don’t think 3 years would be long enough to not see the destruction made by Keamy & co. They did blow a few things up!
However, you make excellent points! We keep hearing that Dharma will make a resurgence. Ask AES more on this topic. And, if that is the case, perhaps Ben is attempting to re-write Dharma’s history to some degree.
I am not saying Ben wants or needs Dharma, it could be the exact opposite of that.
The one thing we can say is, whatever needs to happen, Ben is fully aware of what that is!
Good thoughts!
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@09:58:16
highbrow, and maybe ‘the tooth fairy’ is real. lol
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@10:02:48
Question: Who was alive in Sun and Lapidus’ time from 2004-2007?
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@10:03:14
Dabs, i’m right there with you!! My initial and gut feeling is that they are in a alternate timeline in 2008. Not much hard proof of it, but it’s the only answer i’m really satisfied with.
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@10:03:23
On the island I mean.
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@10:05:29
Bailey1227, You made my day, with the simple statement of ‘alternate timeline’! Bingo!
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@10:10:44
cappayne, I am not sure where you are going with your question, but, Sun & Lapidus along with the ‘06′ were not on ‘the island’ between 2004 - 2007.
Technically, the people on ‘the island’ during that time frame are; Sawyer, Juliette, Faraday, Miles, Charlotte, Jin,& Locke, Rose, Bernard, even though they were all ‘flashing’ in different time frames.
Is that what you were looking for?
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@10:12:51
and vincent
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@10:13:12
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@10:15:33
highbrow, i’m interested to hear your thoughts on alternate timelines…
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@10:17:06
Bailey 1227, we all know how quickly the direction in Lost changes, but I feel we were meant to take notice of this for a reason.
We are either being set up for Faraday’s statement to be proven by way of another character’s play, or blown right out of the water!
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@10:17:39
bigdaveg, and Vincent! Shame on me! lol
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@10:21:15
Cannot figure out why everyone hangs on Faradays words..
He tried to save Charolette, failed.
Put Theresa in a coma.
Killed his test subject Eloise.
Said himself, he cannot figure out what the O6 returning would have to do with timetravel.
He is at last view, a shattered man/physicist.
He could have been the one who caused the problem in the long run trying to fix it, in some twisted Lost way.
The only thing he has been correct about is the island timetraveling…and he was still not sure if it was the island or the people moving in time.
I assume that most of his knowledge comes from Mommy.
He couldnt even figure out the numbers alone, Des had to tell him the settings for his device, granted he sent Des to see himself, but still…
Failure at this point as far as I see it…
Dabsi, you know I love this.
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@10:24:22
How can you forget man’s best friend? A dog is for life not just for 3 months on a tropical island with crazy stuff going on.
Have we seen Vincent this season? just wondering which timeline he’ll be in
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@10:26:10
AES, you know Faraday all too well, and we have discussed his many mishaps previously. I think it’s apparent that his thinking is ‘flawed’. He has caused many mistakes! I can see this pattern continue with him.
I’m not saying he hasn’t been useful, anymore than you are, but he doesn’t garner that kind of ‘hero’ worship, IMO!
I suspected you might like this theory. We seem to share a similar view of our favourite show!
But, I love your input, because it is insightful and smart. And, ‘right on the money’!
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@10:26:42
If this alternate timeline exists its going to end up like Sliders if anyone can remember that? which means that Sun and Frank may never find the rest of them
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@10:27:07
My ‘guess’ is all…for some reason I see him as a shephard/locke type spirit/dog…yeah, that sounds rediculus…but thats my word
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@10:27:12
bigdaveg, no Vincent sightings, and I should be tarred and feathered for forgetting mans best friend!
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@10:27:59
bigdaveg, that is why Christian says they have a long journey!
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@10:29:16
AES, I definitely make the same connection with Vincent!
Especially with the picture of a dog in Jacob’s cabin. It was a sheepdog,if recollection serves me!
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@10:29:38
On the money as this theory is…best argument yet on the subject…Damn Dabsi, between this and your Smokey theory, I am seriously impressed…not just the usual great ideas, this could prove groundbreaking in terms of the future of the show….very well done as usual
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@10:31:56
AES kind of like the penguin in fight club haha
Lol dabs im going to print some missing dog flyers and post them around the area “Labrador, last seen 2004, may answer to Vincent or Jacob, seems to have the knack of turning up to find something/someone. If found please return to Ms Hawkings at ‘The Lampost Station’ and she’ll take care of the rest”
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@10:34:47
Thanks AES, you knew how irritated I was over that Hydra Island stuff, and my own logic wouldn’t allow me to defy the runway!
I thought last weeks episode was mainly character driven, but I couldn’t shake this fact. I was certain once Sun & Frank reached the main island, they would magically be in the same time frame, as the remaining ‘losties’. When they weren’t, I felt there was more to the story!
I really feel, the scene was so subtle it was meant to almost slide by us, or be set aside as something else.
Bailey’s comment about ‘alternate timelines’ throws something else into the mix!
More research! And, lets pay close attention to see what other clues there might be to support these thoughts!
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@10:35:05
Oh i hope it doesn’t ive just got my head around the time loop theory and to add extra dimensions into the mix i think my brain will just turn to mush.
BUT on the other hand it would be kind of good to show an even greater depth to the Islands powers
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@10:39:24
bigdaveg, post those Flyers!
I think if the show does take this turn, it may provide some more substantiating evidence to how change is a possibility to effect the outcome!
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@10:41:14
“You remember what it says in the Bible about not forgiving right”
“Well, it’s against it.”
That’s how I feel about alternate timelines. Until I see Doc Brown running out of the jungle I’m not going to believe that they’ll be using that on Lost.
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@10:44:27
lol McFly! You’ll be seeing another side of the jungle before you see Doc Brown coming running out!
To err is human, to forgive is divine!
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@10:44:35
why dont you spas about it McFly…
;]
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@10:45:21
i do agree to a certain extent with you though highbrow…
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@10:47:29
This could be a very clever tool, utilized by the writers to place emphasis on how ‘change’ can effect an outcome.
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@10:48:47
Yes, change can definitely affect outcome. However this is a mute point because change is not possible. At least not change I can believe in.
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@10:50:59
lol highbrow! I love how you completely contradicted yourself in that last statement!
Positively brilliant!
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@10:53:18
I did not. In a general sense, change can happen. Like just now a user brought me a computer that was blue screening and I changed that. Now it boots up normally. If you’re right though I should have been able to go into the past and prevent the blue screen from happening. I cannot.
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@10:56:15
Yes, I see the backwards logic in your thinking! Perfect!
PS: Your computer isn’t the only thing, that isn’t booting up normally! lol
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@10:58:32
If we believe Ms. Hawking in “Flashes before you eyes”, then there is an alternate timeline. Because even if things are course corrected, if they are at all different, then its a different timeline, IMO. I just wonder how the universe is going to course correct those picture frames from “Confirmed Dead”.
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@11:00:38
Highbrow, you cannot do that becuase you cannot timetravel. Otherwise you could.
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@11:00:48
Great thoughts, lost 4815162342! I never gave that any consideration!
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@11:02:37
One other thing which makes more sense to me now, is when Desmond sees Charlie playing on the street in London, during one of his ‘flashes’.
In one sequence, Nadia is not present, and in another she is, and is rescued.
Perhaps, the little signs were there all along!
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@11:03:29
If there were alternate timelines there would be no need for course correction.
I don’t see how my logic is backwards. Everyone knows that things can change, that’s what I was saying in the first place. In the present. But things in the past cannot be changed. I never contradicted myself.
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@11:17:59
I must admit highbrow, you do have so much clarity at times, you begin to make perfect sense to me.
I find that quite frightening! But, I’m sure you know that already!
Love ya madly!
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@11:21:28
It’s good to feel loved.
I have an idea. Let’s all agree to meet in a neutral location for the series finale next year… like maybe Instanbul or something… We’ll all watch it together then spend three or four hours screaming at each other and who was right and who was wrong…
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@11:22:24
I’d rather be set on fire! lol
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@11:23:51
Mmmm, yogurt! I’m wearing a bright red shirt today.
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@11:26:00
You are too twisted Irene! lol
The fact that I enjoy it, doesn’t say much for my state of mind!
Humour is important! But, seriously, stop making me laugh!
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@11:27:58
I’d stop if I thought it wasn’t making you laugh but since you’ve told me that it is I’m not likely to stop any time soon.
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@11:37:47
I ve got a feelin that this could be season 5 a big twist. We all know that there are at least 2 major twists which the writers have up their sleeves. Preempting these may help us to figure out exactly where they are going. I can picture 2 versions of the same timeline running next season. I also think at some point we are going to see under the island. The heiroglphics (sorry no spell check) suggest something from above-the egyptian gods and something from below. I digress a little. Have we any ideas?
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@11:41:59
Where did you hear there would be at least two major twists in season five? I think we’re averaging about three per episode so far…
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@11:43:17
GK21, those are really good thoughts! You could be right about seeing two different timelines running parallel. I like the idea of that!
That would be so exciting in terms, of viewers rooting for a certain time line. The writers would be brilliant to do that, IMO.
I think at some point, we will get a better understanding of what ‘the underworld’ is all about.
I don’t know what we will be shown, nor how they would explain it, but this is the season to do all of the set-ups for the next Season!
Good thoughts!
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@11:44:37
That’s what I get for winding you up, highbrow! Definitely ‘my bad’ to encourage you!
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@11:53:19
I just meant that their is always a standard shock at the end of each season so that would be 5 and 6 plus I heard the was a major shock coming up. The end of every season has always changed the way we think about lost and what we think we know.
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@11:55:13
GK21, they always go for the shock value at the end of the season! The game isn’t over yet, so I am certain they will do something to make us all shake our heads!
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@12:02:33
Alternate timelines? Another time shift back to the days of the statue? I think it would be cool if this years shock was a reveal. Like the losties initiating the purge. Not gonna happen but something different.
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@12:02:50
i’m dissapointed that i didn’t think these thoughts myself!
fantastic was my first impression, and i’m still rather impressed, but the second or third comment by highbrow brought me back down to earth. welcome centre? makes sense.
is it otherville or the welcome centre?
now i’m confused because i want one to be true, but i’m inclined to beleive the other!
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@12:03:49
I had a whole theory thought out along the same lines as this which involved ben dieing as a child in the past or not joining the others because the losties somehow change the past even if they didn’t mean to. If ben didn’t join the others then they would of never have moved into the barracks hence the state they are in all abandond. I also thought that if ben did die as a child maybe the losties themselves helped with the purge instead of ben to try and put the timeline back to how it should be. The big spanner in my theory is that damn runway if ben died as a child then be couldn’t build it as a adult if my whole island future change thing
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@12:06:18
Maybe the reason Ben converted to the others the first time round was because he discovered that they ave an ageless leader, they know the island better then anyone, and they have Jacob. That would be tempting to anyone….however now he may discover that the Dharma have a bunch of time-travelling ‘Losties’ from 30 years in the future who know alot about the next thirty years for a fact…..maybe a reason to be swayed back to the home team? Then again if Ben then changes his mind that then changes them 30 years of the future to be completely different…..which inevitabley would stop the whole thing happening including things to do with Desmond because they wouldn’t be afraid to go outside. Desmond then wouldn’t be pushing the button. 815 wouldn’t have crashed. the losties wouldn’t go back to 77. therefore we’re back where we started with Ben joining the ‘Others’. I think things can be changed but only things that have no effect on them being there to change it. for example whether the losties like it Ben needs to turn to the ‘Other’ side. The purge needs to happen. Desmond needs to be pushing the button and so on. Things they can change are things that don’t effect the grand scheme of things. I think this is why people like Richard who I think knows alot more then he lets on just lets things happen as they happen because he knows he can only guide people to do what they are meant to do. Not sure whether this makes sense but my basic story is thus. Ben still became an other he just didn’t refurb the barracks when he took them over….im not sure now iv confused myself lol. the only other explanation i suppose is the alternate time line. they just jump from one onto another. so in the new timeline this is what happened. could be key to teaching them if you change big things then inevitably you won’t change anything this could be what sun discovers and tells the losties when she eventually finds them. or i suppose the whole point of changing things is so that desmond isn’t pushing the button hes at home with penny….815 passes over the island after hitting a bit of turbulence….ben is in the Dharma alongside widmore who stays with the ‘others’ and they live together in harmony. now that would be a cool ending lol.
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@12:07:51
ranfangazman, I believe you are on the right track! Let your eyes be your guide! I don’t think you are wrong subscribing to this theory.
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@12:09:14
Samson, I would stick along the lines of your theory, and give a little bit further thought to the whole Ben angle.
There may be another way, it could work for you!
Good thoughts!
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@12:09:36
Yes, you were quite wise to heed my words on this issue….
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@12:10:16
GK21, I couldn’t even think what the writers could show us for an ending!
But, as we are so close to the finishing of the show, I bet this year will be amazing! At least I hope so.
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@12:10:26
sorry for rambling on lol…..i tend to get carried away with myself :S
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@12:13:10
Wesley, you seem to make a habit of talking yourself out of things! The first half of your first comment, is awesome! Then, you digress.
I love the notion, that Ben perhaps sees he may have chosen the wrong side!
What a great way, to redeem himself, by making it right!
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@12:13:59
higbrow………lol
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@12:22:24
i’m trapped between 2 of my favourite theorists!!!
who will i choose? aaaahhhhhhhh
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@12:23:10
Yes sorry i tend to use these boards as notebooks for my thoughts but now I think things do change and thats the point. If Ben chooses the right side this time then all the aftermath of his decisions could lead to the plane never crashing and everyone being happy…..well apart from Kate whos going to prison and maybe it will show Ben and Widmore with there arms around each other gazing up at the 815 plane flying off into the distance. The key is Ben has to choose this decision so the things that were factors in Ben swapping to the others have to be changed ie his dad not being a drunken mess….enter jack his dads new work colleague who could make him show his son love and affection. sayid is now bens 1st encounter of an other or what he thinks is one he just has to be a bit nasty and horrible to ben to make him not like him. Im pretty sure just them two things would make Ben want to stay with the Dharma. Any ideas on wether this idea is just crap or wether it actually holds abit of substance?
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@12:23:18
I agee with you, I also had a strange feeling about Sun et al and what time they were actually in but couldn’t articulate it like you have!
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@12:23:28
So are we thinking the reason that ben didn’t flash back is because he is already on the island in 1977 and because sun is affiliated with widmore and Locke affiliated with ben. Or do we just think it’s all fdw related.
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@12:27:01
Just had a thought. Maybe sun has still to turn the fdw and that’s why she didn’t flash. She does this obviously to meet up, she thinks with Jin.
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@12:28:15
Wesley, I like the aspects of Ben and the changes he make on his choosing a different path.
I haven’t placed much thought into it yet, but I will definitely weigh in, once I do.
I do think you are on the right track. I like some of your thoughts, and the reasoning behind it.
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@12:29:34
solamina, now I am glad I posted this! I thought it wouldn’t be received very well. I’m not sure why!
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@12:30:44
ranfangazman, it’s like being caught between a rose and two thorns! lol
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@12:33:39
GK21 It will be very interesting to see exactly what is required to get Sun and Lapidus to where the other ‘losties’ are!
With that in mind, I am wondering if the FDW will not be required. Especially, if it involves a move to an ‘alternate’ timeline.
Maybe that kind of journey is different! The FDW places whoever turns it, in Tunisia, and then causes ‘the island’ to time jump, so I am thinking there has to be some other means!
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@12:34:07
Yeah… and Brett Micheals is there too… creepy…
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@12:36:38
OMG, that’s the one that just pushed me over the edge!
My eyes have tears, and my sides hurt from the laughter!
I’ll be too tired to watch Lost!
Don’t ever change! lol
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@12:40:47
Highbrow, you say the past cannot change but the present can. Well Sawyer is presently in 1977. Thats his present. So why can’t he change it. The present is where ever you are in time. What about Horace in 1977? He is in his present. So can he change? Your logic doesn’t follow. Not to say that Lost isn’t following the rules you describe. They just don’t make sense.
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@12:43:29
Bobby Dall is in the corner with Jack, not saying a word, just giving him an odd “are you crazy?” look… C.C. DeVille is doing a line with Charlie and Liam… Ricky Rocket is playing the drums on Hurley’s stomach… Brett is talking to Kate, hoping she doesn’t notice how his hair is receding and that he’s wearing make-up…
It’s sad that I still know all their names…
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@12:45:04
Highbrow? Did Desmond change the past in “Flashes before your eyes”, or “The Constant”? Because it looks that way.
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@12:46:49
They make perfect sense. Sure, Sawyer can “change” things in his present, even if his present is 1977. He has free will and can do whatever he wants. But whatever we’ve already observed in the “future” (like in 2004) is a consequence of whatever he decided to do. If he tries to change something it will fail or he may even inadvertently cause things to happen the way we already knew they would!
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@12:51:58
From Desmonds point of view, as things are happening, yes, he changed things. But think about it from his point of view looking back later. He did what he did and there were consequences to those actions. Does it really matter anymore what he changed? Not really, because it didn’t happen. Did he change anything when he saved Charlie all those times? Sure seemed like he did at the time, but he really didn’t. At least not from a future stand point.
When Desmond got his first vision of the “future” he took that as a vision of future events. He changed them but not by going back in time. He changed things when he got to that point (when it was his present). Then the future changed. Then he did it again when he had a new vision. From a future point of view looking back we see that Desmond did this, then Desmond did that, then Charlie died. That’s exactly how it happened. Now, the question is could someone go back in time and make things happen differently? No, I don’t think they could.
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@12:53:50
So do you believe the show will end with our heroes trying to prevent some catastrophe but being unable to do so? I mean because if you believe whatever happened, happened; then whatever happens, happens; and whatever will happen, will happen. The future must also already be written.
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@12:55:31
The visions give Desmond information about possible future events. Some of those events he wants to see happen (Penny arriving on the island) and some he doesn’t (Charlie dying). The visions serve as his motivation for doing certain things. After the fact, his motivation doesn’t matter one bit. All that matters is what he did. Those actions are now history. Who cares why he did anything?
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@12:57:03
So if the world is going to end in 2010 if the Dharma are purged, then there is no way of stopping it now?
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@12:59:32
The future does not have to be written. What if the point of the show is that certain people or a certain person has to do some certain thing in 2010? What if that person is one of the Losties and what if their ability to do that is shaped by the experiences and knowledge they gained while living up to 2004 then going back to 1977 and living back up to 2010? The 2010 year is arbitrary…
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@13:01:51
This is confusing. The Losties in 1977 cannot change things because they have already experienced things at a date in the future. They’ve already had a certain influence on the environment that has, to whatever extent, shaped who they’ve become. To change that would be to change themselves.
Once they get past 2005 though, different story.
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@13:03:21
What if some character in the show travels from the future and reports what has happened. Can that be changed? I guess we’ll just have to wait and see on the rest of it. Seeing that Lost is still being written.
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@13:04:19
Now that you’ve confused everyone, including yourself, it might be time to take a little nap, Brett!
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@13:04:27
Yeah, I guess it’s just wait and see…
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@13:07:53
I know, geez… did you see what he did there? He got all serious and stuff and now I’m tired…
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@13:09:52
lol I know and he almost sounded like he knew what he was talking about!
That’s how come I know it’s time to go night, night!
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@13:12:34
Well, I have another hour to work so I’m going to just have to grab a cup of coffee… It was all I could do to muster the strength to defend my position, but I think I held up alright… I just hope I have can stay awake through tonights episode!
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@13:12:43
Not even if your names are Lapidus and Kwon
Just a thought
Skil1a
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@13:13:19
I kind of agree with Highbrow that things cannot be changed. We are just seeing what originally happened. This could be why Jack wasn’t meant to leave because he was also supposed to have been in 1977. Which he is now in….course correction. The only people who weren’t are the people who aren’t. Even though we think the losties are changing things and they may think it too….they are inevitabley sealing their own fate by doing what they did the first time around….for example Sawyer saving Ethans mum so he could be born….Locke running into the Others camp to talk to Ricard…..this all happened originally and so will anything else they choose to do. so yes they have freedom of choice…..but they have already made that choice.
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@13:14:30
I got a headache, thats all.
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@13:15:19
YES! EXACTLY!
I think we’re chosing sides here… I’ll be Locke. Dabs, you can be Jack.
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@13:15:37
Is your nose bleeding?
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@13:15:39
Wesley, maybe you shouldn’t take all of highbrow’s comments so seriously.
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@13:16:22
Good idea highbrow, because I am about ready to kill you! lol
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@13:16:36
No, I’m certain I got all of the names right. Bobby, Ricky, CC and Brett. Look what the cat dragged in!
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@13:17:08
My wife will be home in an hour and wonder why I didn’t get anything done.
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@13:17:16
Hurley’s coming with me so my group will inevitably be cooler.
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@13:17:53
Skil1, you bring up an excellent point. It certainly turned from day to night, rather quickly!
I think you’re onto something! I can’t wait to see if you’re right!
Excellent thought!
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@13:18:46
All I did was convert all my Lost videos to mpeg2 so that my networked directv box can play them from my pc. That’s more important than laundry I think.
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@13:18:49
Maybe they took a break to make out. That’s what I would have done if I were Frank… Plus I’m sure he needed to have a drink too…
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@13:18:51
lost4815162342, highbrow does have that effect on people! He has given me a few headaches! lol
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@13:20:15
highbrow, your group might be cooler, but I’ve got Ben, Sayid, Mikhail, and Eko on my team!
You’ll need more than a drink after we get through torturing you!
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@13:21:17
That’s what I’m here for. The voice of dissent.
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@13:22:10
What? Ben was with Locke and Mikhail and Eko were dead by the time that happened…
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@13:22:28
Drink up then!
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@13:23:19
I have resurrected them all, especially for you!
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@13:23:38
The office coffee is gross… especially this late in the day… I’ll have to grab something on the way home…
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@13:23:45
Either way, congratulations dabiatchishere. For inspiring so much discussion with your post. I’m outta here. See ya on the next theory. Unless I can prevent it from ever happening.
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@13:25:13
as for future events people can choose whatever they want. but then you’ve already decided what you are going to do. i will try 2 explain.
you have a choice to pick the red or blue pill….you choose the red one thus setting that as what happened. if you time travelled to a time after the pill had been chosen you will notice that you still picked the red one no matter what. but then if you return to your time line from the future then you can change things. ie pick the blue one……this is how desmond does what he does because he says his whole life flashed in front of his eyes when the hatch blew up but then it didnt stop it carried on. tis is why desmond can change the things he saw because he is now on his own timeline effecting what happened. you cant travel to a time in the past and change it.
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@13:25:57
Thanks lost4815162342! Have a good one!
highbrow, did you expect it would be good at this late time!
Better make that an Espresso!
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@13:26:45
I need to shave.
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@13:27:45
highbrow, thanks for sharing! I’ll rest happier knowing that!
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@13:28:07
however this is when course correction comes into play.
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@13:28:28
Wesley, you make great points!
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@13:29:33
The only person disagreeing with you was highbrow!
He has his own take on things!
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@13:31:49
I have the correct take on things.
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@13:32:00
Thankyou
im going to go and watch Waterloo Rd now anyway and give my brain a rest….I don’t have Lost to watch 2nyt 
i have to wait until the morning to download. Bummer. And I will not be returning here now until after I have seen the episode….I hate spoilers lol. Lataz.
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@13:33:42
My theory actually went along with Highbrows thoughts. I was just saying you cant change the past. Simple. Laterz.
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@13:34:47
See you later, Wesley!
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@13:35:23
Yeah, you got all the right moves Rico Suave!
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@13:39:51
Gettin’ a little warm in here… maybe I should stop dancing…
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@15:59:23
does that say 142 comments? WOW!
Better get out the bifocals, going to be a long read to catch up!
(guess it will be 143 now)
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@16:07:21
I can’t believe how long this post is! No wonder I am so tired. Between laughing and keeping up with highbrow’s antics, I need a new pair myself. lol
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@16:08:15
Dabs very lucid well thought out theory. I think that we have all come to believe that they are trying maintain or change an outcome??? As far as Sun & Lap being in a different timeline, how about they are in a different place altogether?? The fact that Christian tells them they have a long way to go could mean time as well as distance. Interesting that there is no one else there, not a single person from what we saw?? Any thoughts??
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@16:15:13
Thanks ali! You make some very good observations.
You brought up the one point, I didn’t bring up. I wondered the very same thing. Where are the people? It occurred to me, that whatever has taken place it must be quite serious, for not a single ‘living’ soul to be around!
It stressed the point, that something very bad did happen. I got the feeling, of it being a time and place where all civilization ceased to exist. I don’t know if it was just me, or if other people had the same impression.
I think the wrong outcome occurred, and this may be what they are trying to fix through an alternate outcome/future.
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@16:55:26
Dabs - your last sentence there…love it.
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@18:10:32
I think they were sleeping.
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@18:15:46
Bailey1227, I wish somebody would write a theory on this subject!
highbrow, as in ‘they sleep with the fish’? lol
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@22:06:01
Oh SERIOUSLY!
Dabs, great post. Spurred on great thoughts/ideas, especially after watching EP 10…but now, after reading the comments/banter…
I have no idea what I was going to say.
And I think it was important. But now it’s all twisted…like I felt after the Paulo and Nikki episode…as in, huh???
GREAT THEORY.
I have some thoughts to share. Maybe here, maybe not!
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@22:45:16
Dabs, Im so sorry. I am just to caught up in the episode fro tonight to read all the comments right now.
Promise I view it tomorrow…
probably add another 50 or so myself..lol
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@05:47:49
No, I think Richard read Green Eggs and Ham and they all went to sleep. It was obviously after their bed times. If the streetlights on the dock weren’t all busted up I’m sure they would have been on..
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@14:57:06
kimberly, thanks for your comment, and saw your reply in your post.
AES, no worries!
highbrow, well, somebodies porch light is on and nobody is home! lol
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@08:32:48
Yeah, you “past changers” better get home because if you’re not in when the street lights come on, mom gets pissed and you’re not allowed to watch TV which means you’ll miss Lost and you might just miss the episode where it’s explained exactly why the past cannot be changed.
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@12:25:49
OK I just started reading this page and realized that there are WAY too many responses to read them all (Jeez you guys are talkative) but I also started thinking about this. However, my friend brought up the idea that New Otherton and this area Christian brought Sun to are two separate places. So I did a little research and I don’t know if anyone has posted this but if you check out this picture:
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=126056&fullsize=1
there are no signs or anything regarding the DI. So I have come to the conclusion that they are in fact two separate areas and we haven’t seen this one yet.
I still can’t explain the numbers that are playing over the mayday. Maybe someone turned them back on? There has to be a reason they were playing in the first place? But if that’s true, why did they (Whoever presumably turned them back on) wait until NOW to do so? I don’t know just a thought…
-Benhamine
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@17:54:46
Ok, just now caught up on this.
I cannot believe…I missed a discussion on this subject….that brought highbrow to his knees on it.
Dabs, Wes, and wow, Lost4815162342, great job explaning some of theses points.
Seriously impressed.
Highbrow, is there any chance…you believe at all now…they may cause or have caused change?
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@08:13:01
How exactly was I brought to my knees on this? This was another great discussion but I have not been at all compelled to buy stock in the theory that the past can be changed.
I still believe that whaterver happened, happened. Nothing in the past can be changed.
I still believe that there are no continuous time loops in Lost.
I still believe that there is only one timeline or at least only one timeline of consequence.
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@03:20:08
I definitely agree that the past can be changed. Some great thought processes here. Maybe Farraday has some sort of alterior motive in saying “Whatever happened, happened” in the sense that he doesn’t want these people to change what’s going to happen? I don’t know why. But if he knows that the future cannot be changed, then why does he apprehend a young Charlotte on the island in the 70s and tell her “never return or you’ll die” if he’s so sure it won’t work? Who’s Charlotte’s dad anyway? Widmore? This may have been discussed, but I’m new here and still rummaging through old topics.
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@09:42:05
miss_angelus, so glad you agree! The fact Daniel tries to warn Charlotte is proof that he must also believe this to be true!
I wholeheartedly believe Faraday has ulterior motives for wanting people to believe his, “Whatever Happened, Happened”, diatribe. I’m just not exactly sure what his motives are at present.
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@09:48:19
Dan is going to warn Charlotte because he loves her and he can’t help himself.
I can’t imagine what his ulterior motives might be for lying about changing the past. Seems to me it would be in his best interest to have a better attitude about it since he wants to save Charlotte… unless he just knows that it really is true…
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@09:59:21
Think of it this way, my dear highbrow.
If our ‘losties’ knew they had the ability to make change, that might prove to be very dangerous knowledge in their hands!
Just look at what Sayid just did, by shooting young Ben!
I’d say that Daniel is trying to protect everyone, by keeping this information secret!
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@10:04:34
What did Sayid just do by shooting young Ben? Nothing! If someone had asked Ben in 2004 if he’d ever been shot he would have been all “yeah, dude… I’m pretty hard core!”.
If someone had asked him that and he said “No, never” (and we could somehow for once believe Ben) then we’d know Sayid had changed something. As it is we have not seen evidence of events changing.
So Dan tells everyone they can’t change things so they go about their lives and do exactly what it was they did. If he tells them they might be able to change things then they try and in the process do exactly wait it was they did. That knowledge is only dangerous if change is possible which is a pretty huge assumption at this point since we have no evidence of anything having changed and the only thing we have to dispute Faraday’s statement that things cannot change is the speculation of a Lost Theorist that it was a lie intended to throw us off course.
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@10:18:10
highbrow, Faraday was full of it, and so are you! lol
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@10:19:06
Nuh uh.
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@10:21:21
The times, they are a changing!
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@10:28:21
Are not!
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@10:35:22
Are…
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@10:39:00
Evidence suggests that they are not. Speculation by some is contrary to what we’ve actually seen.
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@13:07:27
The secret of weather or not you can change the past is locked up In one of hurleys waffles!!
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@13:14:14
Skil1, perhaps you and highbrow would like to share some of that kool-aid you’re drinking! lol
I think I’ll pass though! lol
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@13:19:57
muahaha highbrow is right dabs
Even if they thought they could change the past
They wouldn’t change the fact that they would end up back in the past in the first place and therefore they didn’t change anything ;o
‘Twas simply how they acted in the past set up their past selves (or future :@) to go back in time and be faced with the same problem
You Cant change the past because you(present) in the past is the future of you (in the past of your past which is their future and your past)
And that is what hurleys waffles told me
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@13:20:53
You can’t show me evidence that Chang is right and you can’t show me evidence that Faraday is wrong. Who’s drinking kool-aid?
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@13:22:03
Hurleys Waffles are wise… complicated, yet very wise…
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@13:22:32
And blueberry I think…
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@13:24:35
Skil1, then I suspect with yours and highbrow’s innate logic, there is no logical purpose for ANYONE to be present in the past, as it serves no purpose at all.
We may as well be watching another program! I feel like I am when I am talking with him!
Fortunately, I rely on some good old fashioned common sense.
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@13:26:30
higbrow, I think Hurley’s waffles are getting over-toasted, if you know what I mean. lol
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@13:27:43
I don’t see the common sense in your arguments which usually consist of saying I’m not making sense. Please show me evidence to counter what I’ve said.
The only way your version of time travel is at all possible is with multiple timelines. And sure, mutliple timelines certainly are possible. But they would make for one heck of a dumb show.
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@13:30:09
The future can be altered. The what happened happened statement is so vague, I think it’s meant to lead us astray slightly. The show would be pointless if the story was already determined. Something will change the new 2004 losties will all die in the plane crash and that becomes the plane at bottom of the sea which we all think was an elaborate hoax
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@13:34:54
Finally, the voice of reason GK21. You are right about Faraday’s statement being misleading to say the least!
Of course the future can be altered! I just illustrated that, in my new theory.
I like the idea, that perhaps #815 is on the bottom of the ocean.
It certainly, would make for an ‘alternate’ ending and time line, wouldn’t it?
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@13:42:18
you are on my wavelength dabs. Our losties are gonna discover that some of the info they thought was lies was simply about them from another timeline. They prevent the 815 crash and, in essence kill them selves. Morbid but gonna happen.
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@13:44:41
:@ don’t look at me grr
I am but a disciple highbrow is the master
And who said the past had to make sense??
Ask the producers??
They serve no logical purpouse in the past but
That past wouldn’t be logical if they hadn’t been
There
And noo!! Hurleys waffle
Are mango flavour geez
Also with tex Mex dipping sauce :@
Skil1
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@13:46:25
GK21, even though the events of how #815 ended up on the ocean floor, was nicely explained, it left something hanging in the air.
I wondered at the time, if they had actually died in the crash! Then the ‘06′ left ‘the island’ for the outside world, and I could no longer explain it away.
Now that we have seen further developments, I am revisiting many of the old thoughts I had.
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@13:56:17
Surely this is then the miracle of the 06. I think the losties realize at so epoint soon that ben is trying to protect those on the island including the losties. They have to prevent Locke destroying the hatch to stop the plane crashing and stop widmore finding the island, his story has to be explained. Why is he the bad guy? First to leave the island using fdw? Resentment? Time will tell
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@14:04:03
GK21, I think they already to some degree do realize Ben is trying to protect ‘the island’. I don’t think they realize however, that he is also trying to protect them! Yet!
And, we don’t know who or what he is trying to protect them from.
Widmore has been played as the demon and the good guy, more recently. This is the same way the writers have been playing Ben all along.
Just when you think you know if Ben is good or evil, something else happens to make you completely turn around and go off in the other direction.
I am wondering if both men have equal amounts of goodness and evil within them.
Then, I guess it would boil down to whatever ‘God’ they worship, in order to determine who is right vs wrong, and who should win, in the end.
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@15:24:58
dabs, I was just reading through some posts and came across this one. With the comments, such a long read. But I think that you are right on the money. Something did change. The big argument in the comments is what happened happend vs. you can make change. I think that BOTH are correct. How is that possible? Well, what we are seeing now is what happened, always happened, and cannot be changed. But, we will see soon that they figure out how they CAN make change. I think that that will be revealed in “The Variable”. I think that Faraday will lay out what he knows about the island and time travel. In it he will point out that anyone who is in our physical reality, bound by the rules of our time and space cannot make change. BUT, someone who is not bound by those rules CAN. So, who is the variable? JACOB. (who I think will turn out to be Sawyer). They are going to come up with the plan to use the Orchid to take “Jacob” out of our time and space. To “unstick” him in time, so that he can affect change. I hope you get this update via email cause I doubt many people will revisit it after so long.
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@15:35:08
Hi HurleyBird, yes you are e-mailed on all of your theories, no matter how old they are!
Thanks for your comments! I am inclined to agree with what you have to say about present changes and future changes. I also have subscribed to AES idea, that both elements of change exist. I also think you are correct as to who is bound by these rules, and who will not be.
I agree that Jacob is stuck somewhere in time, either by his own doing, or because of an accident, and perhaps at someone elses hand.
I understand why you think Jacob will turn out to be Sawyer, but it isn’t something I have considered. Up until my last theory, I was convinced that Jacob was tied into the ‘ancient’ aspects of ‘the island’. I no longer believe that. I believe he is much more recent, but don’t know who that might be.
I was thinking that Desmond may very well be the ‘variable’.
AES came up with a brilliant deduction that ‘the losties’ and company are divided into two categories, the ‘course manipulators’, and ‘the ‘course correctors’, which I also subscribe to. I added in the ‘variable’ as being Desmond, because he has always been the wild-card!
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@16:09:47
Hurley bird, I like that idea, I do. My only problem with it is my own recent theory. I predict that the people allowed to change, are the people who are in that time period for the first physical time, but returning conciencly through time travel. This could explain why Desmond is able to affect the past in the “constant” and “Flashes before your Eyes”, but the Losties themselves can only manipulate the correct physical beings…I dont know how that really sounds, please read my “Just a Theory” for a better interpraetation. You will see it is far too long, with far too many examples to explain here!
Glad we came back to this…I love the title especially, lol…
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@02:50:50
Hey
something random just occurred to me nd I think it could mean something 
Skil1
The island is in a time bubble right??
Like when sun and frank go back to it the time they are in changes.
Any Stephen hawkings readers here?? He goes on about time membranes created around huge amounts of mass or ENERGY
Anyway I’m thinking that when desmond turned the fail safe key he changed the time of the whole island maybe just a few years in the past which would mean that ben could have built the runway at any time before 316. This could support both the whatever happened guys like me
Nd the changers like dabs without creating a paradox
*worship highbrow and ye shall be rewarded*
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@07:40:31
Skil1, I really like your idea a lot! This scenario would satisfy both sides of the equation!
I have been thinking quite a bit about Desmond turning the fail safe key, and time. Also, if time was ever the same on ‘the island’ as it was on the outside world. We only know about time references as to when people arrived, but we don’t know “WHEN” ‘the island’ was.
So, great thoughts!
Please don’t let highbrow know that you are ‘in worship’ of him. I have a feeling, that his head might blow-up! lol
There you go, highbrow! A little hero-worship for you!
*worship highbrow and ye shall be rewarded*
Skil1
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@08:15:00
I don’t know what to say.
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@08:17:40
Well, as if that head on your little body in that avatar, wasn’t big enough!
You have reached ‘hero’ status around here!
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@08:19:47
How can I be a hero with these tiny shoulders? I mean, my shoulders aren’t small but… relative to the shoulders of some…
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@08:21:45
highbrow, you are obsessed with Kate’s shoulders! You need to get some help with that, or find Kate on ‘the island’, and get it out of your system! lol
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@08:25:00
I can’t help it! They’re freakish!
Oh, and Professor Chaos needs to have that big head to hold his big brain.
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@08:27:59
lol big brain, huh??? Yes, I noticed he is a little ‘top heavy’. lol hmmmm. It’s all above the shoulders, poor thing! lol
Professor Chaos??? Great moniker!
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@08:34:10
He’s a South Park character. Professor Chaos is the alter ego of Leopold “Butters” Stoch. His side kick is General Disarray and he has some minions who are really just hamsters with aluminum foil costumes.
(Report comment)
@08:36:20
Well, Professor Chaos is very cute! And, a good match for his alter-ego!
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@08:51:36
Who is General Disarray?
I dont remember him…
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@06:23:37
Dougie
Age: Presumably 7
Gender: Male
Hair color: Red
Job: Student
First appearance: “Two Guys Naked in a Hot Tub”
Dougie first appeared in “Two Guys Naked in a Hot Tub”. He was introduced as a first grader, but can be presumed to have become a second grader in “4th Grade”. Dougie is a geeky, red-haired boy with freckles. He is very intelligent for his age, likes math, and wants to become a TV announcer when he is older.[41] He is very knowledgeable about The Simpsons.[42]
In “Professor Chaos”, Dougie does not make the first cut when Stan, Kyle, and Cartman try to find a new fourth friend. Dougie spots Butters changing into his new-found supervillain alter ego, Professor Chaos. Deciding that he is an outcast like Butters, Dougie joins him and becomes his sidekick, General Disarray. Their plots to spread destruction and chaos are, however, very unsuccessful. Dougie reappeared as General Disarray in “Simpsons Already Did It”, “Krazy Kripples”, “Go God Go” and “The Coon”.
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