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“You Just Couldn’t Stay Away…”

“…could you?”

So says a young Ellie circa 1954 to Daniel Faraday when they meet in Jughead (S5, episode 3).

Last weekend, over on Dabs “The Variables” post, I mentioned there have been a few things troubling yet significantly revealing about Daniel. I don’t think his purpose was simply to set up the attempt at disarming the bomb and where we are at with Jack, Sayid, Ellie and Richard.

The first thing that threw me off during ‘The Variable’ was Daniel’s interaction with Chang at the Swan. I think the scene with Chang and Daniel in the elevator/at the Swan that we have now seen twice this season included one version of Daniel time traveling. In the “Variable” version, Daniel checks his journal and says “right on time” when Chang arrives.

Then I remembered this interaction with Daniel and Ellie, and to me, it confirms that his research included him visiting different times.

This ‘You couldn’t stay away” line of Ellie’s to Daniel occurs when, from our perspective and for most of the other Losties, the flashes/skipping had JUST begun.

So if he had been time travelling, he should have some pretty good notes in his journal (like Daniel being his constant, for instance) and various other pieces of ‘helpful’ information.

But this is where it gets tricky following Daniel’s ‘knowledge’ – and why I personally was bothered by Jack’s quickness to pick up where Daniel left off. Daniel told Jack, “did my mother tell you it was your destiny to be here? Bad news, it’s not.”

I’m not saying that Daniel is the most reliable source of well-thought out, rational information. (And I am not going to take this post to expand on what I think about Jack.)

I merely bring this up, because even though Daniel is dead, and Ellie knew she was sending him to his death, at her hands, nonetheless…Daniel serves a pretty significant purpose.

What exactly did he ‘study’ or research to know exact timing of Chang showing up or when the Incident would occur, how did he know the cause, the issues? The more I have thought about this, I think there is a connection between Daniel’s reason for him telling Desmond to find his mother when Daniel went to Des in one of the flashes.

Lets just take note of that little interaction and try to think of a reason why at that point Daniel would tell Des to find Ellie.

From what we have seen, Daniel was a complete wreck prior to him leaving on the freighter to find the island. He was an emotional, mental mess. He wanted to know if Ellie approved of him going to the island. She said yes, it would heal him.

What in the course of that span of time happened – between leaving on the freighter, getting on the freighter, pouring over his journal, etc. – that would make him think that Desmond would need to find Eloise in order to help stop the flashing? He learned something about Ellie’s involvement with the island, he obviously knew she was with the Others by the time he shows up in 1977.

Why is this important now? Especially since we now have the Incident to look forward to, and there are plenty of other conversations to have on this site? Because…

We have a group of people in 2007, led by Ilana and Bram, who are on a mission, with someone having given them instruction. I’m placing my bet on Ellie, if I have to at this point. All the talk about a war coming, etc., has included Ellie’s input and grandiose statements. And we know that Ellie’s knowledge is partially garnered by her experiences with her ‘gifted’ son. This is obviously speculation, but it’s dots that I have connected, and I guess we will see soon enough.

A few other missing pieces of Daniel related storyline only add to my thought that Daniel’s true purpose has either yet to be revealed, or in fact, already was, in support of the idea that Ellie could be behind the Ilana/Bram mission.

Was Hawking’s purpose in sending Daniel to the island simply because she knows it is what was supposed to happen? Was it so that he could tell her to bury the very bomb that he would eventually advise (via his journal/Jack) to detonate?

Or was it to release the gas that could prove to be one of the remaining ‘weapons’ of the war that is about to come in 2007?

If it is that, then it implies that Hawking KNOWS that the attempt to undo the plane crash is futile…that what happened, happened as we all now know it. Jack and Sayid will fail at ‘undoing’ the incident, 815, the freighter, etc. There will actually be more loss…

If his mission was to release/disarm the gas, in the preparation of the war that is to come in 2007, then so far, his story is one of the most tragic, as he was a pawn to his own mother.

I must say, I hope we get to see a few more of his ‘research’ interactions before all is said and done.

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kimberly

I really am from Portland.

106 thoughts on ““You Just Couldn’t Stay Away…”

  1. I think that Eloise, after killing Dan and being told by Jack, that Dan was not only a time traveler from the future, but also her son, she actually stole a young Dan from Darma, Horace the math wizz is dans real father and Eloise figured a time travelling wizz kid may come in handy some day or is her destiny to raise him. Dans memorys of charlotte stem from his eary days living with Darma, but like you say his mind is messed up an does not remember how he realy knew charlotte.

  2. Eloise is preggo with dan right now… So he wasn’t stolen…

    I’ve been thinking about That line ” you just couldn’t stay away could you”… And haven’t figured it out…how has she seen him before 54? To know he was there before… We didn’t see them travel and meet them before that….so is there something more involving dan and more time travel…. Or could he be Jacob? Hmmm

  3. Well HenryGale, my speculation is that he traveled at times we haven’t seen yet. Presumably during his ’74-’77 time period, but obviously traveled to different times than that, like again to ’54…

    Yes we haven’t seen it, but I am putting out there that we (the viewers) just haven’t seen it YET. The same way that in “Follow the Leader” we see that Locke directed Richard to help remove the bullet.

    I’m staying away from any Daniel = Jacob thoughts.

  4. Do we see her give bith to Dan? Maybe she’s realy preg with Desmond who could be her real biological son. He has similar powers to her, placing people where they need to be, and later she comments to Penny after Desmond is shot that young Charlie has his fathers hair, also similar to Charles
    hair in his younger days.

  5. Oh Dizzy, I’m so hoping you’re joking on that one!

    That would make Pen and Des brother and sister. We’ve already been there done that with Boone & Shannon, so I think they’ve creeped us out on that idea one too many times.

    I’m not convinced that Ellie was pregnant with Dan at the time of shooting him. I think he was either born already, and being raised off island, or I am a little bugged at the casting making me think that he was born from ’78 on.

  6. What if Penny is also a child stolen from Darma and not a blood relative of Charles or Eloise. Maybe she is the long lost Annie. They lie an steal children. The others I mean. Nothing is what it seems someone said. Just a thought anyway.

  7. Hawking IS preggo with someone, if its not Dan, than its rediculus, there is enough confusion already…and it makes sense that Penny IS Widmores daughter due to the idea that he is exiled due to having an “off island family”….

  8. Yes, if Penny was stolen then that would make it a bit more tolerable. You are right that nothing is at it seems, so again, I just hope that we come to find that Daniel was being raised off island and wasn’t 26 when he got on the freighter. πŸ˜‰

  9. Yes, I would assume that Penny is Widmore’s off-island child, too. It would be too confusing if it’s not the case.

    AES, why do you think Ellie’s preggo?

  10. As for her words, I am tempted to say that Dan was there before and was actually the one who broought the bomb to the island, in his previous journey, with an idea that destroying the island could save Charolette.

    …but, some have made comments previously, that I really dont agree with that her comment was directed toward the US military in general…but that seems hard to grasp due to their true relationship.

    But at the same time, she doesnt make any comments to him later on about him being there before, when she takes him to Jugghead…

  11. I really don’t think he’s jacob.. I was throwing that out there … But I hope it’s not going to be another writer error

  12. If you rewatch the episode (I have only seen it through once so far), Widmore makes a comment to Ellie in regards to her leaving with Jack and Kate, that “…In your condition…”and looks down at her belly….at least I am fairly certain that is what was said…

  13. All he would really need to bring the bomb is some connection to a very rich man off island, or even maybe a team of scientists from a very wealthy and possibly michigan located team….maybe convince them that destroying the island holds the worlds fate, and poof…a freaking hydrogen bomb!

  14. please let me know if that is what was said…I actually tried to rewatch only that scene, (have I said you read my mind sometimes ;]) with the captions on, and my trusty recorder decided not to capture the captions…god love american technology.

  15. Did you happen to slog through all 300+ of Dabs’ ‘Variable’ comments and see the discussion about this originally? (She always hosts a nice discussion.) πŸ˜‰

  16. Lol, I actually though that as well. I had an entire “Where has Dan Gone” theory written, lol, that I am now glad I didnt post, although I was about to call the whole Ann Arbor thing…

    But I had written that I found an oddness that it almost seemed as if “younger Dan” appeared older than “older Dan”…

    With the long hippie hair, and for some reason it seemed almost as if you could see more wrinkles in his face…guess I screwed the pooch on that one, and as I said, am glad I didnt post now.

  17. Oh, the BIG post…I read the theory, and a few comments…but by the time my internet was cooporating, we were past the next episode…I will eventually browse through…
    Theres not much she puts up that doesnt grab attention for nothing but good reasons, but in light of the recent post by highbrow on the new episode…well, you saw I kind of got caught up in that….And my timemachine is a little low on energy to go back through over three hundred comments at this time…lol

    Did I miss anything of great importance or new ideas/thoughts other than the initial theory itself?

  18. I’m new to the site and computers as well, but I have read the last 22 pages of theory section, so I may have read Dabs posts. Sorry I’m dizzy from absorbing so much lost info. I just wanted to throw in some of my own thoughts.

  19. What bothers me more, and you as well I see, is why Dan said…

    “did my mother tell you it was your destiny to be here? Bad news, it

  20. Well, that’s a loaded question in a way, don’t you think!?! lol

    All I could say is that she and a couple of others worked through some of this line of thinking on Daniel’s time travels…it’s probably somewhere in the middle. I, of course, found it helpful. πŸ˜‰

    I know that this ‘Variable’ talk is now old considering new episodes. I just think there’s a correlation to where we’re headed with Hawking and the ‘war’ – and I truly hope she didn’t sacrifice her son to have the upper hand in it. But then again, I don’t have a full thought on what the war is about…so if the ends ‘justify’ the means, yet…

  21. Daniel believes he knows something about Ellie’s purposes.

    He believes that he has to go talk to her in the Others camp before he heads off to detonate the bomb.

    He believes that she manipulated Jack to getting to the island. I think Daniel might have believed that perhaps Jack (& co.) was supposed to be in 2007 to be part of what is coming THEN.

    And finally, his statement lends itself to Daniel knowing something of a 1977 WITHOUT the Losties. (Which is a whole different conversation…but it reminds me an awful lot of Desmond’s ‘thoughts’ and knowledge of Charlie and his death.)

    But the thing that precedes all of that is that Daniel knew when the island first started skipping, that Des should find Ellie.

    That’s another zinger in the mix…

  22. Now, I am well aware of Daniel’s ‘mental’ issues as well as his guilt about Theresa and Charlotte…so I know the guy has a particular veil over his reasoning.

    But still…he says stuff that is pretty important to consider.

    The other thing about that line to Jack is that it could be the very ‘proof’ that the people are the Variables. It could have simply been that Daniel wasn’t counting on Jack coming back to 77, so it disrupted his formula. And this would still work to fit in with him having time traveled and ‘discovered’ things about the past/future that is influencing his decisions.

  23. Well, he knew from the flashback this episode that Ellie knew of the island, what its capabilities were, and that by sending Des there, he would tell her what she already seemed to know…that the Losties had to go back to the island.
    I think his motives were part what we are seeing now, but more to save the woman he loved…Charolette…
    OH, and BTW…I have some huge issues with that whole ordeal. dan was a shell of a man before arriving to the island right…no memory, barely could hold a thought (or piano note)…then he is on the freighter for a short amount of time, arrives on the island and is somehow in love with Charolette?

    I REALLY dont get that part…

  24. I suppose the freighter had close quarters for what, maybe a month or so? His other option was that freaky girl that jumped off the deck. Or Naomi, and she could have whooped him, so he was probably intimidated.

    And if he REALLY had some mental stuff going on before then, he probably fell in love with Charlotte because he fell in love with her in the future. So whatever is going to happen, happened, just more quickly for him. πŸ˜‰

  25. Or he thinks he loves her, because it’s all self-perpetuated. Like he remembers that he loves her, only because he thinks he loved her before, but really…they never had a chance.

  26. AES, you missed the usual conversations, in my post!

    kimberly, Ms. Hawking is pregnant according to Charles. Penny has a different mother! I would think, that with what we know is coming, that perhaps Ms. Hawking left ‘the island’ prior to giving birth. We know Charles leaves not long after that!

    Dan might be a fluff-head, but he kept his journal in meticulous order, as would be expected of anyone from his field, but also because of his fleeting memory.

    He uses his journal to assist Desmond during his flashes.

    As his memory improves via being healed from being on ‘the island’, he likely would have made further notes, on his findings while in Ann Arbour, which may provide further insight.

    Ms. Hawking sends Daniel back to ‘the island’ to play his role, in the ‘larger’ picture, even though she must sacrifice him for a greater purpose.

    That does not imply she knows that things are going to fail, IMO.

    She has already stated she doesn’t know what is going to happen.

    I don’t understand where all of this talk about failure comes into play. While I discussed the possibilities of both failure and success in my post, The Variables, it is not a foregone conclusion of anything happening/not happening at this point.

    But it would appear, that some people have it in their minds, that Jack is incapable of doing anything right.

    I don’t believe this to be true. The ‘losties’ are present on ‘the island’, and the person who ensured that they got there, is none other than Ms. Hawking.

    So, to suggest she just sent people back there to be killed, to partake in a plan that is going to fail, is really reaching, IMO. I would agree that it is possible that she may know that in the long run, #815 crashes anyway. I think she would be prepared to make that sacrifice, and perhaps that is why Daniel told Jack it wasn’t his destiny.

    Somebody is at least hoping for a positive outcome, and feels/needs ‘the losties’ presence is required and might change things.

    I do agree with you, that we don’t have the full story on Daniel or his experiences, however I am certain we will come to know more.

  27. I am soooo glad someone else views Jack as anything but an idiot. I dont understand how he is seen that way, when we saw almost an identical viewpoint from the only person who seems to know what is going on, on the island at this point…Mr. Locke.

  28. Dabs, I still haven’t watched it again but I will to catch anything Charles said about her pregnancy.

    When you say, “I don’t understand all this talk about failures…” What talk of failures are you referencing?

    And if you are saying that I think Jack is incapable of doing anything right, I do tend to have my own personal opinion on him, and as I’ve said elsewhere, I’m truly HOPING for him to have some big heroic moment or series of moments that win me over for him! I hope it’s a big “Aha! It’s all okay now!” (I can give him another season, but for now, he irritates me. Oh well.)

    If you’re saying that I think she sent him back just to be killed, I would reply that I HOPE she didn’t do that. I HOPE it wasn’t simply to release the gas. If she does know that 815 crashes anyway, and we DON’T see more reason for Daniel’s death, it will be a shame!

  29. So good, you two can love Jack together! And it’s okay if I don’t love him. It doesn’t make my thoughts on his actions any less valid. Again, the tension of ‘who to follow?’ is vital to convey to the viewers. No?

  30. My other question comes from the episode where Dan and Charolette stop the gas from activating and killing everyone.
    How did they know about it, and why did they stop it from happening if they had the gasmasks and whatnot to protect themselves.
    Dan obviously had other motives for being there, and someone BIG, gave him crucial info….

  31. Absolutley it is the question Kim…Stay with Jack, return with Kate.

    Follow and help John kill Jacob, or huddle up with the weasel Ben, and his pal Ricky to discuss the situation…

    As I said earlier, I ould follow John off the highest cliff on the island without thinking twice…but Jack, I would make sure he got up before jumping, if you catch my drift.
    Its not that I dont trust him, its just that he hasnt quite proven himself in the same way Locke has, at least yet…or that we know of.

  32. Okay AES, lets see if this makes sense.

    It’s possible that Widmore wanted the gas deactivated, because knows (somehow) that Ben has used it. And Widmore wants to take out every ‘resource’ of Ben’s presumably…

    Could it also be possible that Daniel had information in his journal that would have come from his time travels that he had yet to experience? Or does that not work because the time travels was his future?

  33. My gripe is probably more with how he is written as a character if he is supposes to be one of the main, heroic, leader characters…

    Apparently I have high expectations, but I’m okay with that.

    And yes, I catch your drift on an ‘uneasiness’ of trusting him. That’s exactly why his “I trust her” line to Sayid, less than an hour after Daniel said to him (pretty clearly), “My mother sent you here? She was wrong!” and then Jack saw her shoot him…I don’t know…it’s tough to follow that ‘reasoning’!

    For all my Jacksmack talk though, I can give him the benefit of the doubt and say, well, at least he’s trying!

  34. I’m still thinking that hanging with Hurley, Jin and Miles would offer the most comedic relief during a stressful situation as the 77ers are in…

  35. I would kill to be with Hurley and Miles for just an hour, oh, the comedy of those two…

    But back to Jack for a moment. Jack has faced almost allobsticals in his life head on. Tried valiently, although wrong obviously, to help everyone leave the island.

    He trusts Hawking I think, because she did get him back to the island. I find it funny, that most are dissapointed in Jacks decision making, when in reality, it is Kate that strayed to the others with Ben, with the help of Sawyer and Juliet, who not only lived on the island knowing full well what was going to happen to them, Sawyers HORRIBLE decision to go off to Otherville first, then get Miles to do something about the tape…He is the head of security, come on!
    And then on top of everythingties Phil up and puts him in the closet just waiting to be discovered by the other DI members…I guess thats what happens when you act before you think, lol, nice leadership LaFleur!

  36. What if Dan is right. Jack was not meant to be there and it screwed his calculation. He would have slipped in fixed problem with bomb and left. No being aware he was from future. 815 would not have had to crash so they could go back to fix problem because Dan would have took care of it. Probably wrong.

  37. That makes sense about the gas, but why in the worldwould he all of the sudden jump ship away from Widmore, if he is the reason he had funding to begin his experiments with at all?
    Dan is very much a puzzle to me, and the people that he is related to are pieces that just dont seem to fit quite right…

  38. Oh yes, “Jim” (which I loved how Miles called him that)…

    For as wonderful as Sawyer’s first interaction with Jack was when Jack first arrived…and all that ‘reacting’ talk…

    It’s amazing how jack and Kate’s presence got to him so quickly!

    I think Sawyer is way too cute, and his ‘decision making skills’ have been horrid lately! I really hoped he was going to put Juliet on the sub and jump off and create a ruckus…the way he jumped off the helicopter… but he was ready to bail on his friends! That is where Jack kind-of has Sawyer beat, currently. Although, Jack pretty much told Kate she wasn’t worth it…

    So they’re all flawed. Like everyone else, everywhere. πŸ˜‰

  39. As for Jack, did his father not tell him when he was young he is not meant to be a hero. Jack fails leading on island because its not destiny to lead, its Locks. His destiny is something else.

  40. How did he ‘jump ship’ from Widmore?

    He got stuck in 1974. πŸ™‚

    Those rascally research years…we better see them at some point.

    Because I doubt Daniel would have left the island if he knew that his mother was on the island when he ‘arrived’ in 74.

  41. Dizzy, I tend to think that Christian was pushing Jack to be great, in a cliche, ‘reverse psychology’ type of way. He needed to be pushed, and to draw on earlier/other conversations…it’s much the same way Locke dealt with rejection/obstacles. They have to overcome.

  42. Henry,

    I think if the Incident is what gets the Losties back to 2007, then it’s not a ‘loop’.

    That’s the simple answer, in my mind. There’s so much more to it though. πŸ™‚

  43. To me, it seems like the problem with ‘change’ at this point, is that there is no clear cut-off point that would allow for the change to begin or end.

    I have been trying to formulate a clear thought on this for days, so here’s my attempt.

    If the bomb detonates, and the Incident doesn’t occur, and the button doesn’t need to be pushed, and Des doesn’t fail to push it, and 815 doesn’t crash, and Daniel never comes to the island on the freighter….

    Then Daniel never comes to the island on the freighter to get to the place of knowing to detonate the bomb.

    How would it work to erase time from lets say, May 9, 1977, all the way up to…September 22, 2004… when in December 2004, someone went back to September 1974 that influenced getting to the ‘new’ 1977?

    To me it feels more and more like it isn’t so much ‘changing’ the past anymore that is the big issue to focus on. It would seem that perhaps, it goes back to redemption-type themes…that redemption doesn’t mean ‘undoing’ but accepting the past.

    And since we’re talking about Jack on this theory about Daniel and Hawking…

    Jack seems like the character that could need to figure this out the most. I would say that Locke knows it…he said so to Sawyer when they were ‘skipping’…that Locke needed the pain to become who he was…

    So far Jack has pushed himself through pain, but this whole island experience has taken him to a new level, IMO, so he has a choice to make. He seems to be choosing ‘undo’ the future/past, rather than accept that people died under his ‘leadership’ and so on.

    I don’t know…babbling…

  44. I think Widmore sent him in to help extract Ben Linus, and next thing you know, he is on his own mission. The island healed him, and he stopped being a robot, and started being a human. Thinking for himself, reacting and helping people that he most likely wasnt meant to react to and help.
    He helps farry people to the freighter, and unknowing to him, its rigged to blow.

    I have been saying that about Christian for literally years, that he was actually pushing Jack to greatness, and not trying to stop it from happening.

    And Henry…OHenry, you know my view on your comment…I have written several theories saying the same thing.

  45. I’ll catch up tomorrow tho… the battery is dying and my brain is on overload with Lost talk today, not to mention, ‘off-island’ issues as you recently coined them! πŸ™‚

  46. I dont think its his leadership that bugs him, but his want of undoing is caused by more than his failures. Redemption has been an intrical part of Lost since season one, face your fears, your mistakes, accept, and get past them…and for Jack, Mr. Fixit, he follows the path that his speacial gift allows him to have done his entire life…fix what is broken…but remember, Ben said long ago, that he didnt want Jack to do the surgery unless he WANTED to do it. Jack has to believe that things are possible to be fixed in order to fix them. Looking back on his past, the things that he has worked miracles to fix, are the things that he truly believed that he could repair.
    When someone tells him repeatedly that he cannot, like his father in surgery, or the “Great man…” speach…Jack sort of crumbles. That is his imperfection that Locke so boastfully has carried his entire life, that I think he will one way or another, force Jack to recognize…”Dont tell Me What I Cant Do!”

    Once Jack stops listening to people, and believes in himself, only then can he be the leader he tries sometimes so hard to be.

  47. I posted a theory looking back the orchid orientation gil yesterday about the negative charged exotic matter and etc with that creating a wormhole of sorts… But it never got posted and it was in no way spoilerish so idk? But I know obviuosly the film came after the incident so chang would have some knowlege of it being possible

  48. What if Eloise is realy the evil person who told jack they had to go back, because she wanted Dan to fail on his mission to fix problem that elimated incident and related problems so 815 would not have crashed without her interference. To exact her revenge on others or island that exiled her years ago so she can take throne as evil ruler of her island …ok I’m going to sleep, I’m sooo dizzy…

  49. Give it a day or two Henry, there is more moderation on things here than previously due to many new members and spoilers….I myself have had even a few comments not post yet, but in the long run, its for the good of the site…

    Night Diz, Night Kim!

  50. Actually, goodnight all, its been a long day here on the island…site, I mean site!
    Stupid show, confusing reality…it just made the list.

  51. A few things… the original idea of the post, the comment made to daniel. This may seem a bit out there (but this is lost so how out there can it be right?) What if daniel is not dead, well not completely. Just like there were presumably two Lockes, one watching the other get treatment on his leg… the Daniel that got shot is perhaps a future daniel, he could even be ten years older than when the current daniel disappeared in 1974… something substantial definitely happened between 1974 and 1977 with daniel which is why the scene between him and chang is so important that they opened the season with it and we have now watched it twice. At the very least daniel is not dead to the show, in that we have to see what he went through in those three years to illuminate his revelations about his mother and the bomb and all. But I wouldn’t be surprised if we get a daniel in 1977 that is different than the daniel who is shot in 1977. Without the insights that he has gained over the however many years and time travels he has gone through since 1974. What?

    As for his comment to Jack… again this will be a bit loopish (which is totally my opinion on the end of the show, a la the Dark Tower, which i posted the other day and wish i hadn’t now that i read AES has been doing it for some time, oops, to quote homer, its my first day). Now when daniel says to jack that it was not his destiny to come to the island, i don’t think he means this time around, he means altogether as in Jack was NEVER meant to come to the island. It was not 815’s destiny to crash on the island according to daniel anyway and what they do in 1977 can potentially prevent that erroneous destiny from happening. Therefore in a way both he and his mom are right, daniel saying its not jacks destiny to come to the island (2004) and eloise saying it is jacks destiny to go back to the island (2007-1977) in order to never have gone to the island in the first place…

    i guess she also thinks its his destiny to go because she remembers meeting jack in her past, which will, at the time (2007) be jacks future return to the island… my head hurts. Its all loops! circular logic at its best.

  52. I had rewatched the show before reading all these posts. I did notice that when Charles and Eloise step aside to chat that he put his hand on her stomach. So I’m guessing Eloise is pregnant now and she is going to have to leave the island soon.I know some think that makes Daniel to young in the future but there are prodigies that graduate high school and college earlier than most.

    When Daniel tells Miles that he is just making sure people are doing what they are supposed to do I think he meant everyone not just Chang. If he knew where Chang would be he knows everyone in ’77’s role they have to play. What really bugged me after rewatching the Variables is at the end right before Daniel gets shot he sort of glances behind himself. I may be reading to much into nothing but it was like he was thinking to himself C’mon, do it already. So he put his mother on her path, too. How Faraday came to have all this info on everyone has yet to be revealed.

  53. Just finished reading all these wonderful posts! I love this site! Anyway, AES, you capture the whole Jack thing perfectly. This show began with Jack, and I continue to believe it will end with him. Thank you for putting the time travel issues into perspective–as I wrote on another post, it is just a vehicle to explore the bigger themes that Lost has been dealing with since the beginning. I don’t think that all the time travel questions will be answered–it’s just too confusing and illogical–and in the end it won’t matter.

    The redemption issue is for me the most important theme as regards the characters, and Jack and Locke have been from the beginning the central characters exhibiting this. I believe that the Ray/Christian/Jack/Aaron bloodline is the key to the leadership of the island. And some have postited that Locke has a blood tie to this family as well. I don’t think we are totally sure of who Locke’s father was. Anthony Cooper was a con man and I personally don’t believe he is Locke’s father. So there is a chance that somehow Locke and Jack are related and they are the true leaders of the island from ancient times.

    One other thought I had regarding the “incident.” Everyone is saying that detonating the H-bomb will avoid the incident. How does that solve anything? Really, A HYDROGEN BOMB!!!!???? what if the bomb detonation itself IS the incident?? And then the radiation contamination is what is affecting fertility on the island? Just a thought.

  54. I always thought “You just couldn’t stay away…” was directed at Dan because she thought he was someone from the government. Not anything to do with Dan as a person. :/

  55. subliminal, I had considered that same thing at first…

    Of course, it could still mean that…but I am now drawing some conclusions that aren’t proven, but would seem possible…in my mind at least.

  56. kimberly, there are a lot of great insights and comments on this post, regarding the episode.

    It seemed like people were dissatisfied, because the episode provided few answers.

    However, I saw the positive build-up outlined in the episode in terms of the characters, and the build-up for the finale.

    I have also shared your frustrations regarding Jack, wondering when he was going to ‘gear up’ and get in action mode.

    I felt the same way about Locke, when he was blowing everything up, way back when.

    I think Jack has finally sprung into action, and is attempting to do what he believes will avoid ‘the incident’. However, we do not know what the initial ‘incident’ was, so it’s difficult to say what will/will not happen yet. Or, who is responsible for causing what or will cause.

    At least Jack has Sayid with him, and we know he is competent, so we can only hope for the best.

    Part of what I took away from the episode was, that the ‘focus’ has begun to change. It is being re-directed back to the characters, and their roles in the actual story as opposed to focusing on all of the time issues, etc.

    I believe those answers will come, and start to make sense once we see the next episode. We’ll have a whole 7-8 months to pice it all together.

    AES mentioned Kate’s defection, and little else has been said about it. I always felt that Kate, would need something major for her to get back into ‘kick-mode’. I expect when the finale rolls around, we may see her finding her motivation once again.

    I think if we are looking for something ‘major’ to occur, we need not look very far. Locke is on a mission, and it is clear, he is not the only one.

    Where things might meet and arise into potential conflict might be between Locke and Jack’s individual efforts.

    I think one is dependant upon the other. Anything could go wrong, or not as planned.

    I believe in ‘change’, albeit good or bad, and whatever that brings to the table.

    It is yet to be determined how anything initially happened, and/or who caused it and/or why.

    Events are being orchestrated, from an unseen vantage point, at present.

    We have little to no understanding of those events, and who is ‘pulling the strings’.

    I am prepared to be completely blown away next week, as we will likely get something thrown at us, we just didn’t see coming!

    PS: apologies if I came off a bit harsh earlier.

  57. No problem Dabs, I enjoy the dialogue and know that we all have different perspectives…that’s why I was curious about a few of the things you mentioned. I am a pretty stubborn girl, who likes to be ‘right’ about a lot of stuff…but when it comes to Lost, my mind is pretty open most of the time!

    I think we agree that we are building toward a great tension in the characters from here on out…of course there will still be mysteries to ‘solve’ but the most tension seems like it will be character-driven.

    I guess that’s why I also made the comment about the correlation between ‘change’ vs. whatever happened, happened…

    Because as much “fun” as it has been to debate change vs. no change…I feel like we’re headed towards the redemption aspect being the underlying issue of whether changing the past is possible. Jack is attempting to cope and deal with the past by trying to undo it. So far, in the entire series, everyone else seems to have come to a place of acceptance, and so the need for changing their past was a non-issue. I’ve said it before but Jack and Kate were the ones who made the biggest fuss (Sayid was in there, too) about getting off the island…

    But now even Kate seems to be coming to a different place of knowing what needs to happen, should happen, what’s important versus her own selfish motivations. (At least, I am hoping so for her…)

    Anyway, back to your comment…I like what you pointed about Locke and Jack operating individually with what they think is supposed to happen. This very thing was presented in Season 4, and we know that it set in motion the ‘factions’ in the camp, and thus how they dealt with the freighter people and each other. We have to be headed toward that type of tension again…it makes sense!

  58. lol kimberly, you are a very ‘sharp’ woman, and perhaps I was a bit dismayed that some of the ‘bashing’ of the episode may have impacted you. I saw it as a ‘positive’ episode, and hoped you did too!

    Your keen insights and logic are needed!

    Anyone who has a true desire to understand Lost, needs to have an open and inquisitive mind. Stubbornness is required to get at the truth, and move with the change of direction in the show! You are right on track!

    I am inclined to agree with your statements and your direction.

    In terms, of Jack, Kate and Sayid being the most staunch of the group to get off of ‘the island’, I feel they are likely going to be the characters who fight the hardest, and make the most contributions in the overall story arc.

    For a point of reasoning, regarding Locke and Jack, both were being urged along by Christian Shephard. That is the one thing they have in common, so i have to believe they are being drawn in a similar direction. Protecting ‘the island’.

    Aside of all of the other stuff that has been thrown at us, we need to remember who has been motivating them and towards what end.

    I have to believe that John and Jack are moving towards the same end, playing their own roles in the situation.

    Throw into the mix, all of the remaining characters, and their individual agendas, and you just know that somebody will have to emerge as a competent ‘leader’, by desire or by design.

  59. Is is possible that Ellie IS pregnant with Penny? I mean, we can assume that she leaves the island before the incident, or the baby would (probably) never be born. That would make her an outsider, technically. Maybe Widmore’s off island family was Ellie, Dan, and Penny?

    I’m not really convinced of this myself, but it would explain Dan’s age discrepancy. But if this is the case, then I’m thinking that maybe Ellie and Charles got in a huge fight, and he took PEnny and she took Dan (yes, kind of like the parent trap)

    It’s not too much a stretch….but I still have my doubts about it. Principally because I don’t think that they would ever consider Ellie an “outsider” even if she left, being that she was such a huge part of the island life. But I didn’t think Widmore was Dan’s dad either!

    I’m inclined to think that it’s just a discrepancy though, unfortunatly

  60. Could she have meant….you just couldnt stay away…bc she thought they were miliary and she was sayin the military couldnt stay away?

  61. Whats up with the Dan being Horace son story?

    I think they made pretty crystal clear that Horace son is Ethan.

    Also Desmond and Penny being brothers is way too much of an stretch.

  62. I am probably way off base thinking Dan is not Ellies biological son, realy horaces child, but they seem to make a habit of steeling kids. After 815 crashed they snatched all the kids, Darma days they seemed concerned for the safety of the children. Obviously after they steal them, someone else raises them. A new mother.
    For all we know Ellie could have 3 or 4 kids who haven’t been revealed.

  63. ya but horaces child is named eathan…and weve seen ethan…its its not dan…..im 100% sure dan is eloise’s real son and not horaces

  64. well locked…it’s not that much of a stretch to think that desmond and penny are brother and sister…since we pretty much know for a fact that they’re half-brother and sister. so the leap to full brother and sister isn’t really a very big one.

    I’m not saying it’s true, but it’s plausible

  65. Desmond and penny are half brother and sister? i dont see anywhere where it implies taht…..desmond isnt widmore or hawkings son…why where do yo uget that from?

  66. oh my gosh my bad…I totally meant dan!!! god, as if we didn’t get enough incest with shannon and boone haha.

    I MEANT DAN NOT DES. sorry all….

  67. IF Elle’s preggers, maybe it’s with someone ‘other’ than Dan. He couldn’t have only been 19 when Desmond visited him at Oxford, no matter how young he was when he got his PhD (which he’d have to have to have that level of free lab access). And, no, not Penny either … she’d have been way too young for Des then.

    “Couldn’t stay away”. Hmmmm …

  68. Maybe I wasn’t clear about my opinion on the whose child is who’s deal. Nobody may agree but we all get to have our our opinions right. If I’m proven wrong I’m ok with that its still fun throw ideas out there. I don’t trust Widmore one bit, so him saying he’s Pennys father is not enough proof for me. I do not trust Eloise one bit either, so her saying she’s Dan’s real mother, is not enough proof for me. If it is for you, thats cool. But until I see her give birth to him or a DNA test proves it, I’m not buying it. I do not think Desmond and Penny are related in any way. I’m trying to say that Desmond is the one that is related to Widmore not Penny. The reason I believe Desmond is Widmores and Eloises biological son is because his hair is similar to Widmores and his power to get people where they need to be is similar to Eloise’s power to do the same thing. I threw in Horace being Dan’s biological son because they are both math wizzes. Yes there is proof that Ethan is Horaces son. I agree. But has it been prooven that Horace had only one child? Couldn’t he have had other children with a woman we haven’t seen yet, years before the whole infertility problem? Dan? Sorry if I wasn’t clear enough and upset anybody.

  69. About the Jacob=Daniel thoughts…I’m betting my money on Aaron=Jacob instead, I have a theory on it but I will give it away when I put it more clear on my head. Lost is a rocket science damn it!

  70. I’m sorry, I didn’t read all of the posts but I just wanted to share my opinion on the “you just couldn’t stay away, could you” line. I think it was written to be deceptive and make us think that Dan had been there before but was actually all about the military people. Let’s look at Ellie’s perspective:

    Not long before our Losties show up, maybe days, maybe weeks, a team of Army guys come to setup a nuclear weapon on the island. How they found it, how they got there, who knows. Anyway, Ellie, Charles and the other Lost Boys fight off the Army guys and a few of them escape under a hail-storm of bullets. Then all of a sudden, there’s all these white people wandering through the jungle again, with guns and vaguely military gruffness to them. In her mind, the Army guys have come back, possibly to detonate their weapon. Fast forward 23 years, a rather paranoid Eloise shoots her own son in the back because he’s waving a gun in Richard’s face talking about the bomb. She was so scared of those Army guys coming back that she was trigger happy about the episode a quarter of a century later.

  71. pjdkrunkt, you aren’t the only one who disagrees and thinks she was implying a military reference to him. Earlier in the discussion here, someone (AES I believe) even implied that perhaps Daniel (in his time travels) was able to be part of the military that sent the bomb. That would tie BOTH lines of thinking together.

    I know that it is VERY possible that in 1954, Ellie was inferring American military. The odd thing though is how Daniel was dressed…very un-militaristic. Especially for that period.

    If that’s all she meant, okay, sure.

    But I just happen to think that based on other experiences and clues, such as Daniel’s references to time, watching Chang arrive, talking to Chang, saying “I’m just making sure it happens the way it is supposed to happen” means that he has received some sort of knowledge and ability to know what actually happened, down to the very minute. Him experiencing other time travels than what we’ve seen is very possible at this point…which could then include something in 1954.

  72. Dizzy, I think you are right on picking up the connections between the Others and children. Now that we know that Daniel’s parents were both Others…it is right to give it some thought on what the implications are!

  73. Holy late to the party, Batman! I haven’t read all of the comments… just the first 30 or so… forgive me.

    I don’t think that Ellie is preggers with Dan in 1977. That would have made Dan around 19 when we saw him receive his doctorate. He did mention that he was the youngest but damn, that is young! I think he’s a few years older than that and he had already been born in 1977. I wonder what bun she has in the oven?

  74. You’re always welcome to join whenever Highbrow. I’m with you still on the “Ellie’s prego” thing, but I haven’t had the chance to watch the episode again and see these references to her ‘condition.’ Not to say that I don’t believe that they are there, I just am pulling a little doubting Thomas action…

    If they are asking us to believe that Dan’s born in ’78, I guess we’ll just get to count it as one of the biggest age discrepancies on the show. It’s very possible that they threw that ‘youngest’ to graduate line in to explain themselves, but come on, they know that their viewers have math skills! πŸ˜‰ It won’t be the worst thing ever on the show.

    “Nikki’s dead. ” – Hurley

    “Who the hell is Nikki?” – Sawyer

    Anyway. Another day at work for you means another day to talk Lost, right? πŸ™‚ I’m out for awhile. Mondays are two a days, fun.

    So, come up with some good explanation as to what the impending war is will you?

  75. Yeah, it would be one of the two biggest age discrepency problems… the first being Charlotte. They ended up calling that on a continuity error… they were off by like ten years! I still can’t believe they cast that the way thed did since Charlotte’s character is supposed to be 38-years-old… my God!

    As for the coming war you’re guess is as good as mine… I’ll put some thought into it today and see what kind of ideas I can come up with to share…

  76. I thought that Charlotte was closer to 34, but that’s just a few years that are still off by about ten. But hey, if I can look like that at 34, I’ll be happy.

    Okay, but seriously, I actually have a thought about the age discrepancy thing when it comes to her.

    What if when she and the other DI left the island, they experienced a time shift somewhat like what happened to Ben. He “lost” ten months just by turning the FDW. We have been accounting for this based on the time disparity of the island, right? (Or we could start a whole new set of ideas that perhaps Ben got stuck somewhere in those ten months.)

    Anyway, if Charlotte and her mother leave the island in 77, and lets say that Charlotte was 7 years old at the time, but somehow, in her return, she ends up in 1987…then, she could have aged according to her being 7 in 1987. Then that makes her more like 24 when she gets on the freighter.

    I know, I’m just s-t-r-e-t-c-h-i-n-g to make it work, but it was fun to think about…maybe the casting dept. should pay me for PR.

    About the war…

    I have some thoughts, but I know I will take some serious heat for being far too simple. I truly appreciate the depth that the writers have gone to in order to draw correlations between literature, physics, religion, science, etc. to add depth, substance and clues to the storyline. However, everyone that I watch Lost with doesn’t really care or spend time exploring them for meaning, as if in the exploring will be the answers. This seasons time travel issues have obviously been the main discussion point for theorists, but they can’t explain everything on the show through the storylines. It would be impossible and ultimately, it’s like explaining lyrics to a song. At some point, the song connects to the individual listener based on the listeners circumstances, experiences, etc. If the writer were to tell you EXACTLY where they were coming from when writing it, it would most likely make it less meaningful for the fan.

    So, about the war. I think it will be character driven, not necessarily based on ancient religions, or science vs. faith, or something that takes a LOT to explain to the viewers. There will have to be something simple to it. I have more thoughts, but I have to work for a bit.

  77. Nice try at explaining Charlottes age… however, the writers have admitted that it was a continuity error. Her character was 38 when she was on the island but they let slip that she was born in 1977 I think (that was the mistake). When they introduced the character they used the actresses actualy birthdate.

    As for the war right now I’m going with Coke vs. Pepsi.

  78. Nice. Um how bout neither? (Although, the “I’m good” Pepsi commercial did have me laughing.)

    I thought that they had let that slip about Charlotte’s age…so then, if they have admitted to that mistake, once again are we being asked to believe that Jeremy Davies (born 1969) is playing someone born 1977-78? And then, that one of his loves was a good 10+ years older than him? Again, that’s why they should use my line of thinking and the date allowances when you leave the island. πŸ˜‰

    I do think it’s kind of interesting that the war hasn’t been brought up more around here. Or maybe it has and I’ve missed it. (I’m looking forward to a search or category feature so maybe some of the ‘repeat-ish’ posts can die down a bit…but I’m sure I’ve done it plenty myself.)

  79. Well, your explanation would work for Dan and Charlotte but it would cause problems for Miles. I think Ellie is pregnant with a different kid and I hope it turns out to be Desmond… I can’t wait for that moment when Penny and Desmond realize they have the same father! I’m going to laugh harder than I did when Arzt exploded!

    As for the war I really think it’s going to be a good old fashioned scuffle for control of the island. Everyone will say they want what’s best for the island but who’s really going to know? It’ll be Ilana, Bram and their people vs Locke, Ben, Richard and the Others… the out of nowhere Rose and Bernard will show up with L. Ron Hubbbard (resurrected) and his Scientology Army and they’ll jump into it and before we even know what happened Kate and Juliet will mud wrestle over Sawyer who will probably get sick of all the drama and finally admit his feelings for Jack and they’ll settle in the caves and raise their eight children before finally settling down and passing away quietly each with a light or dark stone clutched in their hand.

  80. Miles has a look that could give or take 5 years either direction. Dan and Charlotte didn’t.

    Okay, and as for your really well thought out scenario…you wouldn’t get sick of Kate and Juliet mud wrestling over you, so that’s the part I have a problem with. Otherwise, dead on!

    And speaking of Jack being pregnant…maybe it’s him pregnant with Dan, and Charles was concerned about him, not Ellie!

    Okay, so seriously, I have thought the same thing: “control of the island” and then it goes back to, “how can someone/group ‘control’ the island? what is the island? by controlling does it mean keeping any other group out/off? or is it control by using its powers and possibilities?” That’s what they have made us think so far…so will it be a huge twist…that was all a pump fake and the island is something different and it has nothing to do with control?

  81. Seriously I think it’s going to come down to the DHARMA Initiative vs. The Others/Hostiles. The DI wants to be on the island to do work that they feel is vital to the survival of man and the Others, for some reason, want the DI off the island.

    There are so many missing pieces to this mystery it’s difficult to come up with something that really makes sense and isn’t built up on tons of speculation. We don’t know the true power structure of the Others. We don’t know the details of the truce. We don’t know the nature or role of Jacob. We don’t know what Richard is up to… Here’s what I think.

    I think that Jacob is in charge of the Others, sort of on top of the whole hierarchy. Beneath him there’s Richard who advises the leaders(s). Before 1977 for example there was Jacob at the top with Charles and Ellie leading and being advised by Richard. At some point around 1960 the DHARMA Initiative manages to come to an agreement on guidelines enabling them to come to the island to study. Richard may not have been entirely happy about that. Along comes Ben Linus who was recruited by Richard. Later Richard and Ben conspire together to overthrow Jacob and they manage to trap him in the cabin. Then they hatch their plan to remove the DHARMA Initiative (the purge).

    Along comes John Locke. John is Jacobs heir (in my opinion, his son). John goes through this and that, basically an entire lifetime of trials in preparation for his role. Now John is on the island and he’s setting out to kill his father to take his place as is the tradition. Richard and Ben are understandably uncomfortable with this.

    Anyway, I just talked myself out of the point I was trying to make. I don’t know who’s fighting who because as I see it the Others under John Locke are on the same side as the DI2K. Maybe together they’ll have to fight off invaders of another group… maybe North Koreans or Somali Pirates or Crips or Bloods…

  82. I’m about half-way through Valis right now and I was thinking of relating his view of the hierachy of the gods to the organizational structure of the Others.

    His view (which changes a lot… so his view at this point about half-way through) is that there is more than one god. There’s the creator deity who is insane and blind. He created our world but his blindness and insanity accounts for the evil and chaos we see all around us. The trend towards order is the intervension of the benevolent god who we know as God working to bring good to the world. At least that’s how I interpretted what he said…

    That relates to the Others kind of… their structure is odd. The odd part is Richard. He kind of leads but he doesn’t? He’s important and near the top but he doesn’t really have any power? Kind of like the creator who isn’t really on top of the totem pole… Richard is insane and blind and effing things up but Jacob is trying to fix it. He can’t quite get completely through but he does have some influence…

  83. Okay, you had me thinking on a couple things, right up to the point of you somehow disagreeing with yourself.

    It would seem that within the factions…lets just say that it is DI vs. Others (natives)…that BOTH groups have abused/misused the island from it’s original state/purposes. Both have distorted what the island exists for…and why and for who…so that’s where John’s ability to ‘commune’ with the island is actually pretty integral.

    Two things about Jacob being John’s father…which, I could buy into. First, is that if Jacob was originally part of a particular group, that would make this interesting. Like it’s been interesting to discover that Widmore was a leader of the Others. It would make sense considering that we tend to note ‘lineage’ both in terms of families as well as ‘groups’. Those groups have their belief systems, for lack of better term, and those belief systems dictate how they treat/use/represent the island. It would be a nice connection because it ties together Locke’s inherent connection to the island from the beginning.

    Okay, here’s the other so very random thing about Jacob being John’s father. In the Bible, John the Baptist’s father was Zechariah. Zechariah was a priest who when told he was to have a son and was supposed to name him John, asked a question of doubt. Because of that doubt, he became a mute. He couldn’t speak the entire time his wife was pregnant and right until the time came for him to decide what to name his son. When he wrote “John” he got his voice back. That would be somewhat humorous (I guess, in a way) if Jacob truly can’t speak, and is John’s father, and it’s related to a punishment of sorts…not simply being ‘trapped.’ It works with the whole Locke/belief theme.

    Okay, switching gears again.

    I think it’s interesting to think about all the references to Jacob, if there is a Locke connection. One that came to mind the other day was remembering a line from Ben…that Jacob would be the one to cure her sister’s cancer if Juliet stayed on the island. I know it’s Ben we’re talking about here, but still…it’s interesting to consider some of those past Jacob references.

  84. I think the interesting thing about Richard is that he has been dragged around a lot by the leaders…at least that is my take on it.

    After watching “Follow the Leader” I realized that Richard is one of the people this term applies too…and what made it really stand out was how we were watching him have to do the same thing in both 1977 and 2007…with Ellie and Jack, and with Locke. You’re right, he doesn’t have a lot of authority. But he represents something when it comes to the island. Which actually made me think that he might be indebted to it, in a way. Like perhaps he isn’t released from his role…and it has something to do with his past. This could especially work if he is dead.

    Interesting thoughts to try and think about the ‘structure’ of the Others.

    Remember the Juliet’s mark experience…and how Isabel was the ‘judge’ but Ben changed her sentencing and said, “the rules don’t apply” even though we had heard their whole rule about not being able to kill own of their own?

    Looks like Locke is about to change the ‘structure’ which will make it even more interesting.
    In

  85. If Elloise isnt pregnant with Dan, why does he look at and motion toward her stomach and say “..not in your condition…”?

    I think that it would make perfect sense, in the very simple logic of why she could believe him.

    The reason he would graduate so young would have nothing to do with continuoty error, as the Charolette slip up, but the fact he is a genius/prodigy, and his gift of intelligence.
    We see him playing Chopin on the piano at a very young age. Fantaisie-Impromptu in C-sharp minor is one of the most difficult pieces of music to memorize and play on the piano, and although I am aware it is done by many, and even people his age, I believe it was a subtle clue to his intelligence and great young mind.

  86. What if the island just represents mankind or the world, so where you’re born, on or off island does not matter. Its about being able to believe. In the unexplainable, whether its smoke monsters, miraculous cures,parting of the red sea, burning bush, feeding hundreds with a loaf of bread and bottle of wine. Each person has to reach that point on thier own, can’t be forced. So we are seeing each players personal journey to get there or not. Some won’t. The coming war will be about good vs evil of biblical proportions. Modern day times, because mankind has drifted so far away from blind belief, and acceptance. There’s too much greed and hate and pollution and radiation and if its not stopped, mankind will destroy itself eventually.

  87. i went back and watched jughead…again…and came to the conclusion that what ellie meant back this line was jsut that they were military coming back …

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