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Post-Season Ideas and answers…(part 1)

Alright, there is a lot of speculation flying now, and I am going to try and address a few of the situations that seem to be hot topics.
These are things that bother me, and although I obviously have no idea for real, there are some subtle hints thrown about, that may be interesting and carry more weight than first heard.

The age old timeloop question…

Is the island in a timeloop, and if so, why dont the losties remember what happened.
Well, for starters, they havent experienced it in 2004 yet, so they would never know what happened, unless the past was changed, and someone went and told them about being there, to which they probably wouldnt believe them anyway.

Regardless, there is a great post by Thorn about the timeloop idea, and comments on its possibilty.
In the theory comments, I state that nobody would know of the timeloop except for Jacob and the man who he speaks to at the beginning regarding the loophole (such a subtle clue, no?) and BlackRock.
There is a good rebuttal regarding if its a loop, how could it end?

A great question, and hopefully my answer will suffice.
Think of it as a 800 meter track race. That would be two laps around a four hundred meter track, or 400 meter loop if you will. With that idea, you think about the way in which the scenario works. Just because you come to the end of the first loop in the race, doesnt mean that it disappears, and another appears. The second (loop)half of the race begins, from the same place the first loop previously ended.
If there are seemingly immortal beings, who if the speculation is true, have seen the end of what we believe to be everything, then they would be the only ones who would know how it ends before it actually does.
I have said a few times in other theories, that the losties will not experience the loop as the island (the island as a character, not sticks and stones), or as Jacob would, if he is actually not a fool, and out of the grasp of time and space.
With that in mind, lets talk about the next thing smashed into this a little.

Change…
I have said before in posts that the only way there could be no change, is if there is a loop, in regards to Ben and John turning the wheel. If Ben turns the wheel in 2004, and sends the island jumping in time, hence John turning the wheel, and placing the isalnd in the 70s at the end of the setting of the FDW, the only way that this would not repeat itself, is if change occurs, and Ben never turns the wheel to begin with.

I admit, there must have been other periods in which the wheel was turned, most obvious being by the polar bears with the DI. But still, I imagine with all the technology, this is not the beginning of the wheel. They probably would have just done the Orchid, rather than use an old ancient wheel. Meaning, that in order for the losties to stop everything from truly happening, they would have to travel back to the timeperiod of when the wheel is first turned, and not only stop it from happening, but destroy the wheel as well…before it has a chance to be used. (100% speculation)

There have been several examples of what I believe to be foreshadowing of loops. Too many to even get into, but if you search any good loop theory, you will find a enough to at least give some sort of foreshadowing of a timeloop.

I think what the problem is, is the camera is still pulling back, and not shown us, the presumptuous theorists, a full view of everything going on.
We have been trying to piece together a timeloop theory, based upon the scenes we have been given us through the first 5 plus seasons. Thinking that what we are seeing is the important part of the show, in terms of looping. When in reality, the words from Jacob regarding the end, and everything before being progress, leads me to believe that we are out of our league, and the REAL loop, may be the loop of time that is humanity or the earth/universe as we know it.

I have many answers and ideas on the possibility of a timeloop, and a very strong belief that change will occur. Any questions will be answered to the best of my ability, and look foreward to hearing and answering all I am able to. I won dwell on these two ideas, I wouldnt do that ;]
For now, on to a few more thoughts…

Jacob is dead…
As even the producers have said, “dead” is not always dead on lost.
Two things come to mind when people assume this.
One being the idea that since the MIB is able to take the form of Locke, that a physical form means nothing to these two particular individuals.
If someone were to kill the Anti-Locke, would that mean the being taking his form is dead?
For all we know, the physical form of either of these two men in the opening scene, could be nothing more than the same idea that the physical form of Locke is actually MIB.

The second spawns from the timeloop idea, and proves a little more thought.
If the two men have seen the future, and knows where something ends, whether the island or humanity/earth/universe; the only way that Jacob could be dead is if something changed, otherwise…he is still alive in some way.

Smokey is the MIB from the opening scene of the finale…
This thought is a very big theory getter, that people seem to truly believe. And I for one admit that the thought crossed my mind until I rewatched the finale, and saw a scene that shook it from my mind.
When Anti-Locke and Ben are discussing the incident that occured in the “temple”, when Alex appeared to him, and threatened destruction if he didnt follow John’s every word, John stops him in a moment of true happiness, and says something to the jist of,

“You mean you have to listen to everything I say?”.

Ben replies “Yes…”

And Anti-Locke goes on to say, “Well then I guess I wont have to convince you after all.”

And we all know what that led to… the killing of Jacob.
But as many have said, and I agree with to a point, is that Jacob wanted to die. Now I wouldnt say he wanted to die, but he was prepared to, and I think that his standing there and accepting what Ben and Anti-Locke did to him, knowing who the man with Ben truly was by his “loophole” comment.
Now I dont think that Jacob wished for Ben to stab him, but he seemed prepared, knowing that a loophole was discovered by MIB, and walking right up to accept his fate.
He may not have known that Ben would stab him, but he knew that he had been had by Anti-Locke, and with all he has been through and seen, I was not surprised by his reaction, although I was surprised by Anti-Locke kicking him in the fire. I thought that because jacob was not dead yet, he would not be able to play a hand in the whole thing for whatever reason, but thats neither here nor there.

Well, a short theory for the moment. Hopefully some feedback and questions will help me expand on the previous major thoughts, why the timeloop is possible, and there is a very good chance of change.
And also help to see why Jacob is probably not dead, and that Smokey is NOT the same being Jacob conversed with at the opening of the finale.

Again, please nit-pick away, its the only way any of us will come to understand one anothers logic. A good theory is nothing compared to the comments and questions it raises.
But please, lets only talk Lost here. I would hate for someone to try to jump on the ‘recent comments’ page, only to find its nothing more than hogwash dealing nothing with the show from a theory I produced…I hate when that happens!!! Not to mention it really is not good for new members who jump on for the first time, and may think that this wonderful site is not the best place for Lost talk.
Happy hunting, and fair warning, I am very sturdy on my beliefs, so to change them, it will take some gooooood convincing facts, or even better ideas as to why they wouldnt work…
But change my mind on something, and i will forever respect you!

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Written by

A.E.S.

Abbot Enheduanna Schwarzschild

21 thoughts on “Post-Season Ideas and answers…(part 1)

  1. Well AES, you certainly don’t have any concerns about me questioning you, as you are aware that I fully subscribe to the loop theory, (having written my own theory), and change, (having written a few theories on the subject).

    As far as I am concerned, this totally encompasses the mystery of Lost.

    As for the loop, anyone wishing to understand further should go to Wikipedia and look up, the temporal causal loop. It explains the concept very nicely.

    We are looking for how the loop began, in addition to how it will end. My understanding is, that it takes an explosion which effects the time-space continuum. From there, the loop continues, until the origin of the loop, can be changed. So, you have to go back to the cause in order to effect the loop. Even if, that means, that the loop is redirected, somehow.

    Therefore, change has to occur!

    You are correct, in terms of ‘the losties’ not having recall, but in some cases, some have demonstrated deja-vu type experiences. I can think of a few instances on Lost when this seemed to occur.

    Mikhail started to say to Locke once, that the John Locke he “knew” was para……and was interrupted.

    I would have to believe that when it comes to Jacob and his Nemesis, that ‘dead’ may be dead, however, if we take into consideration, the mythology of creation, birth, death, and re-birth, that may not necessarily be ‘the end’ for them.

    I also agree with you, that the smoke monster is NOT Jacob’s Nemesis. The smoke monster can be summoned by Ben, and has never harmed an ‘other’, that we are aware of. This is a seperate entity for the reasons you mentioned.

    Once again, I can barely scratch the surface of this theory!

    Well Done!…..as usual!

  2. Very nice, AES! I do, however, have a few simple question: 1) if the entire Lost secret is a timeloop, then why did they just bring this up now, as opposed to in the first four seasons?

    2) Although I do agree that MIB is not one and the same as Smokey, I’ve seen both of them tranform into somebody else. This tells me they may have some sort of connection. (I have ideas spilling out of my head now, so I’ll post my own.) 🙂

    Great post! Definatly gets your mind going!

  3. Awesome stuff A.E.S.

    I, too, believe there is some sort of loop going on and that only Jacob and MIB are aware.

    I don’t think smokie and MIB are one in the same either. MIB may have some powers but he still seems to have alot of human attributes while smokie seems more alien to me. I don’t mean that I think it’s from another world just not human, ramen not varlese or djur.

    I’m not so sure about the change though. I get a little confused when it comes this subject. Sometimes I believe that what we’ve seen so far comes under the whatever happened, happened category and the only changes we will see are coming up in season 6. If there is a loop we are only going to see it one time through with whatever changes occur this time around. Dabs has told me that Lost was partially based on The Stand by Stephen King and at the end of that story it starts all over again, just not in the same way. (trying not to give away to much of that story for the people who haven’t read it and want to) Yet when I read your theory I think some changes must have occured in the past to get everyone to the point in the story where we are now.

    Thank you for your thoughts A.E.S. hopefully this will be the start of a good discussion!

  4. Hello Dancer, good quetions indeed.
    As I said, Ill answer the best I can…

    1)If they told us, it wouldnt be very much of a secret would it…Im kidding…90% at least.
    I think they may have some of those hot theory topics that honestly, they like hearing us do exactly as we are doing with…theorizing them to death.
    With all the small examples of foreshadowing to looping and repetition, I think in a way, its kind of a long mean trick they have been playing.
    Although I do think there is some sort of a loop involving the time period between the wheel getting turned by the 2 “leaders” of the others, it seems from the dialogue between the two men at the beginning, the loop we have been hunting is unimportant compared to the overall loop from the very old Jacob and his ‘friend’.
    They wouldnt come out and tell us the big loop, as I will refer to it now, but the simple idea of the scenario that I believe Jacob lives outside of time to experience the island going back to the 70s (after some jumping) can, without change, only indicate that once it reaches the exact period where Ben turns the wheel in 2004, to have it occur again and again.
    The ‘why’, with the exception of the trick I state above, could only be told by us not knowing who or what Jacob was for almost 5 seasons, and speculating everything in between.
    Heres the thing. I dont necesarily think its the “big secret” of Lost. I feel that will be more directly related to the main characters that we have followed for 5 years. But the loop itself is more of a plot device, to which for the last 2 or three years, we have been confused as to the importance of.
    I have preached of change for quite some time now, and although I believe they may have had a different idea for the loop in general, they went with this as a larger scale plot twist, which in my opinion works perfectly into the show, keeping with the loop premise, and stil not cheating us out of all the symbolism pointing to it throughout the years.

    Now, dont get me wrong, naysayers can say “Why does it have to be a timeloop, couldnt they just go back in time, and be simple time travel?”
    Of course it could.
    But then what would be the point of all the symbolism of looping and change.
    As I said above I dont believe Jacob is DEAD, but I do believe that what happened is different in some way then how it happened.
    I read and commented on a comment last night, saying that Jacob planned everything to happen. I think he did, but although minor things changed, if you consider people dying minor (perspective) the long run of the loop will carry the same consequence of jacobs seeming victory over MIB…unless MIB turns out to be the the victor, in which it would still be change, and a break in the loop.
    Im sorry, Im very long winded on this subject, and if I dont answer your question thorough enough, tell me to stop dancing, and re-ask the question.

    2)The connection between the Smokey and MIB.

    I think that the connection between the two does not necesarily point to a relationship. What it does point to, is the idea that the islands power is attainable through almost anyone. There are more things that would baffle and interest me than transformation on the island.
    Immortality, healing, time travel, things like that also seem shred by different people on the island. And we know by the fact that Ben got cancer, that there is some kind of selection, be it natural, chosen, or self induced, that exists in terms of gifts on the island.
    Lots of talk about Jacob, MIB, Christian, Locke being related in terms of life after death, possession, mobility, judgement, and most importantly direction.
    All of these characters have at some point or another, be it a form of someone else, or themselves given direction to other characters, with forcing them to do anything.
    Most recent, Jacob…off island.
    Christian…Jack/John on island.
    Smokey…if he was actually Walt or Yemi, John and Eko.

    And lastly, and most important in my book, John. Seemingly doing Jacobs work directing the 06 back to the island, but last episode realizing that it was MIB that he was possibly serving.

    With the examples that we have been given of Smokey appearing as others for direction, they were a much different entity in my book in regards to their roles and actions when compared to how Anti-Locke portayed himself.
    I think they have an island connection, but putting myself in a different boat than others hear, dont think they are working together.
    Anti-Locke went to the temple with Ben, but it seemed he stays out of the way of the smoke monster, although I could be wrong, and it could be a ruse to allow us to believe that.
    I think the big question right now has got to be…
    Where was Anti-Locke when he exited the jungle when Ben spoke the words “What comes out of that jungle, even I cant control.”

    Alright, I wanted to give a fair answer before I read your post, and am very happy I was able to “get your mind going” and help you produce a theory of your own.

    If you dont see a quick response from me there, assume I am dwelling on some of your ideas, and stirring the pot in my head, but I promise some feedback today.

  5. Thank you for your feedback Angus, I have some “off island work” to do, but do check back, as I will comment on your thoughts of looping and the stand a little while later.

  6. Well Angus, I must say, that judging by your quote above, “ramen not varlese or djur” you are either a hard core sci-fi fan, or a good researcher…most likely both from some recent posts I have read on the site.
    As for the “alien”, I agree, and appreciate your clarification of what you meant by not from another world…although I must say, I have had some suspicions, and anything is possible on Lost.
    But even though the creators ore sci-fi fans themselves, I too doubt they would go that route…

    I see your are borderline about the change aspects. It IS a touchy subject, and I feel at the moment, as throughout the season, it is a matter of opinion and interpretation.

    I am just one of the people who have seen far too many hints and clues that there is or was change, much like the timeloop thought, and that is why I have a persistant process of pressing my thoughts on the subject.
    I feel that if at least one of them doesnt occur, then there was a lot of wasted time not only including all of those foreshaowing details into the show, but wasted time by many of us debating the topic, whether it comes out right or wrong.
    And I highly doubt that writers and producers of this caliber would leave us hanging out to dry on the issue.

    I can also understand the dilemma they face on either direction they decide to go, due to the fact so many have stated their opinions in great belief and hope on both sides of the track.
    But it seems to me they have a story to tell, and they are going to tell it whether everyone likes it or not, and I whole heartedly encourage them to do so.
    They lost many to religion at the beginning of the show, and many to sci-fi in season 4.

    I think they should really tell the story they have, and pay no regards to the comments and opinions of fans on the subject.
    Over the past 5 years of giving us the story we know, I feel we owe them the ability to go their own direction, without being dissapointed or unhappy with the overall outcome.

    Of course I want what I say to come true, and hold merit, as everyone hopes with their theories, buut honestly, as much as I dont want the ride to end, I want to know what happens, and that is what I will hope for more than anything in season 6.

    Thanks again for the comment Angus, and as you said, I hope this starts some discussion and we can build on the small things first, and work toward the bigger happenings on Lost.

  7. Dancer, no problem at all. As I said in your theory, thank you for your good insight and good faith towards the cause of finding answers.

    I dont normally like to place theories close together, especially on the weekend, but some things you touched on in your theory has inspired me, and I should have another coming soon.

  8. I am a hard core sci fi fan but I do love researching things on the internet, too. I did get the varlese, ramen comment from Orson Scott Cards’ Ender’s Game series.

    Being a big reader of sci fi I’ve learned to suspend disbelief unless it really makes no sense at all. The writers have done a great job at story telling! The thing that scares me is how badly some writers screw things up when time loops and time travel get involved. Stephen King’s Dark Tower series was great until he started with that. But if I think I’ve researched subjects just from being a part of this site I know The Lost writers have done ten times as much! I’ve never gotten into a TV show like I have with Lost.

    I think they will continue to astound all of us. Any way they go is fine with me. Pretty much every theory or thought I’ve had has turned out to be wrong which is much better than being able to guess what’s going to happen next.

  9. Well put.

    I expect to get a few small things here and there, but the big questions…especially character related questions, lol, we have almost no shot.

    And the surprises arent the best, its the fact that they seem to lead people right up to what they believe is correct, until the very last minute sometimes, then the camera pulls out, like a rug underneth of you, and gives you something so good, that nobody could have actually predicted with all the lost knowledge in the world……ahh, I love when that happens…

  10. i think, that if you are supposed to find out the end of a time lop, you have to find the first person that went into the looop, as you say this may be jacob or his friend at the start of the incident.

    but if the time loop was not man made parsay, then there is no telling to its end, as there is no original starting point. jacob is not the ifrst to use it, im guessing. im kinda still looking forward to the original inhabitantsof the island, who built the statue etc, as im guessing jacob didnt!

    i feel if there was a man made intent for a time loop, was it created in the future or in the past, i guess that would be most interesting as it would mean that keeping tabs on certain youths from the past, (sawyer, kate etc) would be easier.

    more later. must have drink. too hot.

    x

  11. losts-columbo, I am interested in knowing if the ‘time-loop’ was not man made, how or what could have started it?

    I also never gave any thought to the ‘time-loop’ being created in a deliberate fashion.

    Any ideas on these two things? I think we have been made to believe that ‘the incident’ or something else has caused the looping effects, or, that it is part of creation.

    I’d just like to know the alternatives.

  12. well, i think the two ways the ‘timeloop/ could be made, is eith a man made, ie deliberate creation gone wrong.

    or if it is a natural thing, like when chang suggested in the shaft, that it may if snared have ways of ‘manipulating time’

    so either it is natural and was waitning to be discovered, or in fact is a man made, or as egyptian and greek mythology concours, it may be something man made by greater ‘beings’ so to speak.

    i know my theory of lost construction work and architecture was a joke, but my serious point was that the island must have had some mass populaton at some point, to create such object (the statue0 and buildings (the temple)

    could something have been built or discovered then? or, as i aid was it a man made phenomena from the future? hence jacobs knowing of sawyer and kate when they were younger, as i dont think he randomly chose these kids. he knew eactly what he wanted, so did he have prior knowledge?

    hmmm…

    x

  13. losts-columbo, this is exactly what I thought you were referring to. I love the answers! I think all are very plausible for different reasons.

    I plan on exploring all of the aspects you have mentioned!

    I will be re-watching the series again from the start to see what else I might glean from it, in terms of what you said.

    I think they are great ideas! Thanks for the input!

    PS: I did get the ‘grand scheme’ of your post, btw!

  14. ahahah! im not surprised you like them, i thought of them! its in the same realms of our john locke conversation, as in i think there is a missing scene to tie al this together..but its nice to talk about it!

    x

  15. Columbo…hmmm…I must say…I had to think about your idea for a while before acceptng the possibility.

    I am thinking that the loop was possibly created by Jacob now, who in turn, did it knowing that even though he may not be able to in fact change the ultimate outcome, but what leads to the ultimate outcome.

    It all goes back to the thought of Desmond saving Charlie long enough for him to “save” everyone, by stopping the functions of the looking glass.

    He and John share a similar quality in their deaths. They didnt die, they were not killed…they sacrificed themselves for others. They both knew going into the situation what the outcome was to be, one told by Desmond, the other by Richard, and still proceeded to comtinue their journey, and end their lives for what they felt was for the good of their friends.

    I am still a strong supporter of change, and I feel that the ultimate outcome doesnt have to be changed to be the only thing that makes a difference.

    If Charlie had died a druggie, or a coward not willing to accept his faith, in a manner that Desmond had saved him from several times, he would not have been loved by the others less, but he wouldnt have been looked at the same as the hero that he is seen as now.

    There is more to life than life and death, and more to stories than the beginning and the end. Its the in between that truly matters, and how you get to your final destination.

    Excellent thought Columbo.
    I honestly have been waiting for good input from you on one of my theories.
    I appreciate your words, and will continue to think things through on your idea of a purposely created loop.

  16. Oh, AES! Do I ever love your thoughts on Charlie’s death, being a sacrifice, as opposed to a meaningless death.

    I am certain you are onto something there! The fact that Charlie sacrificed himself in the same way as Locke, speaks volumes! Perhaps, this constitutes part of ‘the change’ we have been speaking about!

    It also reminds me of the theory by WebCommoner/Ben, and his thoughts on Joseph Campbell’s book!

    I am ‘psyched’ by these new revelations!

    Great discussions in this theory!

  17. well, thank you for your response!

    first of all, just to make sure, im not subscribing to a particular thought here, in the sense that i dont think the time loop is man made, or a controlled natural phenomena; by jacob.

    i may be repeating myself here, but, if it is man made, so it has been created for what intent? If it were jacob, we could say his intent, judging by his conversation on the beach with the guy we do not yet have a name for, for some sort of progress on the island.

    my only quam with that is, what is jacobs specifications, because as i mentione before, why is there a huge statue? he couldnt havebuilt it. so what im saying is,if there was once a mass population on the island, that could have helped build it, they obviously were not good enough to meet jacobs specifications. they were filed under “PROGRESS”. Jacob must have brought them there, or did he?.

    so what im not neccesairly saying its man made, or natural, im not sure yet. ill need to think about it more.

    could desmond have found a way to do their business and save charlie? hm… you say that charlie ended a hero, but was used by desmond, the whole story is so utilitarian its untrue!
    buti like your sentments anyway! i just not a fan of desmond!

    but yes work time.

    x

  18. A.E.S.: I just posted a new thought about Smokey, although I think it contradicts our belief that Smokey is not MIB. I was just curious to hear your take on it. 😉

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