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Alternate Timelines…101

Welcome to Alternate Timelines 101.

The Big topic this preseaon, seems to be alternate timelines, which we will use AT to shorten it a bit, and save my fingers for Baileys questions…

So in a post by BigDave, I was trying to explain the idea of AT to a few people…I think I was confusing people, which I guess is my fault due to what I was actually explaining…we will start from the beginning.

What I am trying to explain is nothing more than how ATs exist in the Lost world based on the Orchid Comic Con video, which I was unable to determine if it is considered canon or not, some of them are, and some are only “semi canon”, and some are non…any help on that is appreciated.

For the sake of not having to defend an explanation, we will say NON canon, therefor this post means no more than the video itself…simply my logic.

You do NOT have to believe that Alt Timelines are effecting ANYTHING, now or ever to understand or believe this…You only have to believe in TIME TRAVEL on Lost…which I assume we are all crammed into that boat by now.

This is what I think happened to the bunnies, and IF there was an AT on Lost, this is how it could be proven.

Experiment1…
-We start with one bunny, at 1pm…
-We send the bunny into the future 1 minute, and return the bunny at the exact moment that it left.
-Our eyes, concience, and mind would percieve that the bunny never left.
—This would NOT prove, in any way that Alt Timelines exist…

Experiment2…
-We start with one bunny, at 1pm…
-We send the bunny into the future one minute, just as the first time.
-By accident, instead of bringing it back when it left, as we did the first time; we send it back in time one minute before te experiment began.
-By doing this, we see the effect of sending the bunny into the future, before it ever really happens, and in turn, Chang NEVER sends the bunny, creating what we all know to be an Alternate timeline.

The two timelines are as followed…

1)The timeline that Chang sent the rabbit, allowing it to be sent back too far…causing there to be two bunnies…the one that was on the table, and the one that appeared on the shelf. (I have NO idea why its on the shelf)

and

2)The timeline that recieved the (on the shelf) bunny BEFORE the experiment began, thus never sending the bunny (on the table) in the first place.

Are you with me…? Of course not…

FAQ: Why doesnt sending the rabbit into the future create havok/an alternate timeline, why isnt it until it gets to the past?

Answer: As many said to me last year when I spoke of such nonsense…you cant change or alter the future, because it hasnt happened yet. You can CHANGE the past (hypothetically), You can CREATE the future.

FAQ(Bailey): “Wouldn’t, as time continued on, the bunny from the past BECOME the bunny of the present??? sort of appearing out of thin air. like i’m assuming most things that have time travelled do. (it soudns like i’m being sarcastic, but i’m honestly not) I’m confused as to why this is considered “botching” the experiment. Wouldn’t it just reset itself sort of?”

Answer: This is partially answerd in the FAQ above…I think…

No, the bunny wouldnt reset itself. They are manipulating the islands time travel properties. Just as the island wheel “flashing” the island, the machine “flashes” the bunny. It goes where the machine programmed it to go. Where the island wheel spins, the island goes… where the machine sets, th bunny goes.
If there was a mistake…its just a bunny. Im guessing that there were about 14 before this one.

In the video, there is never supposed to be two bunnies. One actually does kind of appear out of thin air, which due to the numbering, it seems perfect we are to believe they are the same ones.
One bunny is from the present…its the one that is there when Chang is speaking.
The one that appears out of thin air is the one that is accidentally sent back in time…from the future…that doesnt exist because they no longer send the bunny…Put your hand down Bailey…

FAQ(JJ23):So you can’t say ‘Everything that happened before season 6 can be forgotten, it didn’t happen’ like Faraday says, he’s wrong. The only way that the 2nd reality exists is if the 1st exists, thus the term Parallel timelines instead of ‘2nd timeline that replaces the other’.

So don’t forget to include that in your post A.E.S. … Almost everyone that is somehow serious about alternate timeline does _not_ believe in time resetting. They believe in 2 parallel realities coexisting.

Answer: Thank you for paying attention JJ…

He is correct…especially if one was to say that BOTH timelines STILL exist…

If we are looking at this from JJs perspective, which is correct in my opinion, the first did indeed HAVE to exist to create the second…making them parallell…I assume it was more of a gramatical error by many(myself included), but I could be mistaken.

The only problem with this idea in my classroom is that it is not necessarilly what I am saying.

Yes, JJ you are correct, we do have at that point, if looking at it on a chart, two parallell timelines, but at one point…one has to ask the question I cannot answer…Does that other timeline that sent the bunny to begin with cease to exist…or play out in a place we are not able to see?

Many seem to think that the war spoken of in question…that is for another time.

Please, if you dont believe Alt timelines are occuring on Lost, I understand, and you need not say so.
This post is simply a way of gaining one perspective of explaining how the CC Orchid Vid would be an example of prooving alternate OR PARALLEL timelines on Lost…

I honestly hope this does help people at least wrap their heads aroun the idea of Alternate/Parallell timelines, so at least they know if what they are truly arguing against or for is an actual possibility.

Im more than willing to answer questions on this thought, and more than open to suggestions, corrections, or additions.
I will not be debating on whether or not I think any part of the show is being directly related to any of this on this post. I want people to understand why I have believed for some time that it would play a part.
Stone and SawyerGirl…I hope I helped a little, JJ…thanks for the help in your explanation/my FAQ ;], Dave…stop laughing, Bailey and anyone else…ask away…

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Written by

A.E.S.

Abbot Enheduanna Schwarzschild

76 thoughts on “Alternate Timelines…101

  1. alright.

    1. awesome to see my name and a confused quote of mine in a theory.

    2. I have a tattoo of an Einstein quote which says “The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing”. I’m pumped to see that i live up to that statement.

    3. why: “The one that appears out of thin air is the one that is accidentally sent back in time…from the future…that doesnt exist because they no longer send the bunny…” why does that mean that they no longer send the bunny? are you just assuming that? is it not possible that the bunny reappears in the present…from the future…and then they send it again anyway??

  2. wait….i think i just answered my own question.

    it would just be continuesly resent too far into the past, to then catch up with the future, to be sent too far into the past again. ok ok. i think i got it.

  3. 1…It makes me happy that it makes you happy, lol..

    2…Pretty weird…I have the same quote on a poster, right beside Jack Londons famous “Credo”, and a certain picture I very much like…stop peeking in my blinds…

    3…Yes, it is entirely possible that the Rabbit still gets sent to the future…but that leaves one question that would not make sense for an intelligent scientist such as Chang to make…
    If he realizes then that he has made a mistake…would he not double, triple, quadruple check that everything was set right, which again, would not allow the rabbit to “go too far back in time”, thus not having two rabbits.

    The reaction from Chang and the crew seem to imply that #15 was not meant to go back, and that if they touched, something VERY bad would occur to either the bunny (most likely) or the universe (less likely).

    The other option for me is that Chang is MUCH dumber than I expext him to be, and still sends the bunny incorrectly into the past, setting the bunny in a loop of sort.

    I play this thought with the idea that Chang is not an idiot, which is why I use the scenario of sending the bunny to the FUTURE first. I would think that he is not dumb enough to initially send the bunny to the past, which would immediatly make two bunnies, creating the scenario we see play out in the video…

  4. I was joking we were simoposting…

    You are correct about the looping effect…good call…

    Bailey…I think you get me now!

    I’m just happy someone could,LOL….

    This is very confusing, thanks for the responses

  5. Yay im mentioned too 😀 mwahahaha

    ok so is timeline to kind of like a paradox? Meaning, does Chang have to send the bunny to the future and bring it back to a minute behind in order for him to not send the bunny in the first place? Therefore leaving it to never have happened.. So because of this change, is that the same as saying the timeline has merged?

    If there is a yes to any of my questions theres a good chance something is gonna permanently click in my brain 🙂

    Also ‘put your hand down bailey’ made me giggle!

  6. Yes…yes…and sort of.

    The timelines don’t merge in any way other than a being from timeline 1 crosses over to timeline 2…but technically…yes…with a “but”…

    Sawyersgirl….click?

  7. AES, you’ve missed one option with Chang and the experiment, they meant to send the bunny back to earlier than it was first sent, in order to see what happens when they meet, or to try and figure out how to stop any possible disaster. The upset could just have easily been around the fact that the tape was running. “Stop the tape”. They meant to do the experiment that way, they just stuffed up the timing so it reappeared during filming.

  8. I dont agree to that simply based on the reaction of Chang, although it is very possible.

    I dont think there was ever any intention of there ever being two bunnies.

    I truly think that the experoment(s) were “physical” versions of Dan putting Eloise in his machine at Oxford.

    Tas, I did read your theory on the “cloning” of the rabbits, and I just dont feel that it was at all intentional.

    I unfortunatly dont think we will ever find out the real experiment (but I hope we do), I just thought it was perfect for explaining how the never aired footage is evidence of what we both believe possible… Alternate Timeleines.

  9. Thank you Sawyergirl, I am happy that this is making sense to people…more suprised that happy, but happy non the less, lol…

    It is such a confusing topic, and I feel its necessary to “wrap your head around it” just in case they decide to go this way.

    I really have no other intention here other than to make people understand, no debating, no arguments… A dulled down “How To…”.

  10. A.E.S. – As badly as I want to understand what’s going on with these bunnies, I have no idea what’s going on. It’s NOT your fault. I doubt it can be explained any easier.

    I’m lost in experiment #2 —–

    If you send a bunny one minute into the future, and from there it accidentally gets sent further into the past, how’s it appear out of thin air in the present? We see the EFFECT of it, as there are two bunnies, but does that other bunny just….appear at 12:59?

    It’s tragic. As greatful as I am that you tried helping people like myself out here, I hope to God I never have to comprehend something like this in order to understand LOST when it ends.

    I thought I was capable of complicated thought. Thought I could hang with the test acers of the world. I am now humbled….. At least there’s still video games.

  11. As an alt timeline advocate, this post has completely confused me, it seems to describe a paradox and I can’t see how it explains an alt timeline. I don’t know why the bunny has to be sent to the future to. E sent to the past? And how if Chang doesn’t send the bunny back a paradox is avoided or why the two timelines are together? Just not sure that this was the best example to use as we really don’t know how or why the experiment was about.

  12. Nevermind, I get it, had to read it twice.

    So essentially, Chang sees two bunnies. One appearing out of thin air. He then decides NOT to do the experiment, just to create a parallel reality. The problem is, he NEVER ends up doing the experiment, yet, he still has two bunnies. What the hell man?

  13. Chief, lol, you crack me up…

    As I said, its really confusing…That part is not my fault, THEY did thi to us, lol…

    All the stupid hype and hoopla, I actually HOPE there is not alternate timelines and the say so right off the bat so we can STOP talking about it already…but unfortunatly they didnt. Some think that the bomb went off, and despite the hatch door, the others and Richard knowing what happened, and finding Charlies ring, there is still an alternate timeline present on the island.

    *I am NOT SAYING ‘HERE’ that I believe that, just explaining the video*

    Also an unfortunate event for us crazies who check the nooks and crannies are a million and one videos, games, etcetera that make us spend more time than some would care to admit…theorizing Lost. And if your on this site…and you know other members, some by mere avatars, what they believe, and voice opinions on an almost daily basis as you and I do…put the video games down ace…your in the thick of it with the testers…
    On to your question…since you asked one, your at least curious…

    The bunny appears at 12:59, they sent the rabbit at 1:00 into the future, then returned the rabbit to 12:59, BEFORE (begin alternate timeline) they sent it, hence it appearing out of thin air on the shelf (again, I have no idea why its on the shelf)

    Chief, your one of those guys that gives a damn about what Im saying….or you just really dont care…I respect your decision either way sir…

  14. My vision of timeline convergence is when in the two timelines, at one point in time, everything is perfectly the same. The timelines are divided as long as there are DIFFERENCES in the realities. When you eliminate those differences by killing or regrouping the ‘differential’ people of the 2 timelines in a single place where the 2 timelines can connect (the island), then the paradox between the 2 timelines is resolved. I call differential people whoever participated directly or indirectly in the divergence between the 2 timelines (in the creation of the 2nd timeline) or whoever’s life was affected as a consequence of that division. That would be Juliet and probably whoever has been on the island.

  15. Hi AES, great job on explaining Chang’s video! I recall you providing this explanation last season.

    It was much more confusing back then! lol

    Jj23, you know I’m feeling your explanation in your comment.

    Chiefof16, I so appreciate your honesty, and also know that you care an awful lot about Lost.

  16. Thanks Dabsi, IT WAS MORE CONFUSING…there were less pieces then…

    JJ does have a great interpretation of the show.
    Very well explained and fills in blanks all the time…

  17. @A.E.S

    Oh my comment on timeline convergence was directed at SawyersGirl45 who was asking about what it meant to make timelines converge… I agree pretty much with everything you wrote, except that I do not think it’s a 101, it’s a 102. People that were confused by your rabbit explanation will probably still be confused, however I do like it. Maybe I should just make a drawing.

  18. MY GOD PLEASE DO!!!

    If you can define my explanation with a picture, feel free to post it here or use my thoughts in your own theory…

    I tried a few different ways…but it ends up looking like young Lockes drawing of the smoke monster….(scribble)…

    Im glad you agree, and 102 makes sense.

  19. Not that much a representation of your ideas with the bunny. More a reprsentation of my view of Lost. Use it when you wnat, I don’t have time to write another complete theory!

  20. I think what i’m having trouble with is that to me an alternate time line would run….beside?…the other time. I can’t wrap my head around what it would mean if the 2 timelines played out in the same…place?…clearly my quantum physics thesaurus is in the other room.

    To me it’s “travelling back in time to when you were 10 and having the 10 year old you and the current you in the same room together” and then there is an “alternate time line, where a different you lives, in a different ‘world’ and there is only one of you”…..i don’t see how they would ever overlap/connect. i think thats what gets me.

    I agree with Chiefof16, i thought i got this kind of complex thinking, but i most definitly do not.

    i also agree that they probably wouldn’t throw something this hard to grasp at the general population of LOST watchers.

    god, but if they do….man, i’m gunna look REALLY smart to my friends. hmmm

  21. No, you do get what I am saying!!!

    You get the alternate timelines…you dont get the connecting/overlapping of them, which essentially, does not have to occur to understand my thought.
    there is now a timeline with no #15 bunny, and one with two…thats the only connection…one bunny is from the other/alternate reality

    Im not saying two timelines are playing out in the same place at all, just that two timelines existing, one CAUSING the other.

    A paradox is necessary to cause ANY alternate timelines…
    A paradox is simply something that occurs that doesnt make sense scientifically.
    This is nothing more than a complex grandfather paradox, but without the grandfather.
    Its change, not “Back to the Future” style, but “creating a forked timeline” style.

    Im not telling you to believe that there is one on Lost, just that if the video is correct, than this is one way to prove it.

    And no, I doubt that Lost doesnt get this complicated.
    But many prayed that there would not be time travel. And Im sure there are plenty trying to figure out how dead people are walking around…so Im just trying to be prepared for the possibilities…

    Btw…if your friends start inquiring and you need to look smart, just flash that einstein tattoo and tell them to stop asking so many questions…

  22. An alternate timeline needs to be seperate from the non alternate or else they are events occurring in the same timeline. The bunnies are in re same timeline and an obvious answer was raised by bailey, if chang knew what was going on, and knew that if he didn’t send the bunny back in time then a paradox would occur, doesn’t it make most sense that he separated the bunnies then continued the experiment to avoid a paradox. A conscious decision to create a paradox seems a bit odd, why would you do that when you can easily avoid that situation.

  23. Jj thank you for trying to explain your idea of converging. My only doubt however is that i dont see how they can all be doing the same thing and in the same place to converge. For example, Rose. She has very aggressive cancer and without landing on the island she probably would have died in a short amount of time. So if shes not on the island then surely it couldnt converge? Also how would they all get to the island?
    .. Which from reading above, Bailey is also having trouble with understanding (we are definitely on the same page!)

    Other than that i think i understand

  24. Glad I could help Stone ;]
    Thanks guys and girls.

    This is very confusing, try to not figure out how the timelines can converge using my examples, probably not going to happen, because the post is only meant to be an easy way for determining Alt timelines…

    I could be wrong, but do the time lines HAVE to merge to be alternate, or is that just what we think is going on?

    Either way, my intention is only to show how one timeline can be turned into two without fully changing everything and negating the past.

    Sawyersgirl, I will answer your question in another theory when I post how I think Alt Timelines could play a role…

  25. @SawyersGirl45

    Well then you need someone to kill Rose in the reality where she survived.

    @A.E.S.

    You’re totally right, I often refer to convergence of the 2 timelines but I don’t believe it is necessary to understand the general concept of parallel timelines. The timelines merging together is what I think the war means, but it could also mean other things without destroying the whole alternate timeline concept.

    The problem with keeping 2 timelines is that if you don’t yourself find a way to make the timelines converge, you’ll leave this to the universe, which will find the simplest solution to bring back the 2 timelines together. Problem is the universe has a funny way of course correcting. And we all know what the universe can do. It can send a meteorite in Hurley’s fastfood restaurant, it can kill people like Charlie. What if the simplest solution becomes to kill all humanity in both timelines ? That’s what people don’t want to happen; so they have to make the timelines converge themselves.

  26. Hi everybody! I’ve been reading all your interesting posts about A.T. which were at least trying to give a sort of evidence to its existance, I couldn’t help but thinking about Daniel experiment with Eloise the rat and Desmond assisting.
    Please, bear with me I’ll try to make it as simple and clear as I can…maybe it has nothing to do at all with the bunnies…but here i go.
    Eloise was a rat, Daniel exposed it to the purple light, it travelled to the future, if I remember well its mind did, and after that exposure it was able to go through the maze.
    Daniel was about to train Eloise through the maze an hour later, after the purple light experiment, but actually he never did because Eloise died before he could train her.
    So how could Eloise know about the maze if actually it was never trained?
    So here we could have two realities,one when Eloise learned the maze and another when it died. Sorry if this can sound stupid or nonsense to you…but I had the urge to share these thoughts with you.
    Please tell me what you think about it, can’t wait…i believe strongly in A.T.,it’s the less illogical explanation to every mistery in Lost.

  27. Pennyanddes…..hello again.

    I see your point. I suppose that’s as good evidence as any that alternate timelines exist. I still hate it though. Here’s why:

    Daniel just assumed that he was going to train Eloise. He had ambition to, right? Therefore, he trains her without ever actually doing it.

    Please check this out….

    So essentially, Daniel could have ambition to rob a bank tomorrow, and then go back in time to the present. If he succeeds, he should have thousands of dollars appear in his hands right now. If he doesn’t succeed, he’ll just decide not to rob the bank, and he’ll be fine. If this sounds stupid to you, than so should alternate timelines.

    However, I do like your example, it sheds some light on all of this (at least to me it does, I forgot all about the rat maze)

  28. Penny and JJ, GREAT job understanding and explaining.
    Chief. ..you are describing another option…plain old change..
    Back to the future style LOL…
    It makes sense because we may NOT get to see the convergence, its only in theory right now…

  29. I forgot to incorperate the fact that Daniel, even if he succeeds in robbing the bank and money appears out of thin air, he could still decide not to rob it, creating an alternate timeline (that’s what you guys were getting at all along). That would then mean money would duplicate and it would rip a whole in the universe. The money would displace air molecules like oxygen, with money molecules like carbon (or whatever). It would create violent storms and such would it not?

    No offense to anyone, but I’m done talking about this. Thanks A.E.S., JJ, Penny for expanding my mind, but I’m gonna have to call it quits, as I am losing my mind. I’ll go work on the Hurley bird mystery or something in the meantime.

  30. penny, that is the example I would have liked to use, I just used the bunny video because it is in my opinion the physical version of the rat maze…which I assumed may have been too difficult to switch from “concience” to “physical” for my explanation.

    I thought that may be easier to picture in 3D/physical reality, and explain my thoughts on the actual video and its importance….thanks for your comments, I think you are right on point…

  31. Chief, Im glad I could help out, and I fully understand your being done with this…I hate it too…

    btw…if you figure anything out about the damn bird…let me know please, lol

  32. Tas, Im sorry for the confusion…

    The bunny does not HAVE to be sent to the future, as I said in a comment later in the post.
    I simply suggest that the rabbit is sent to the future first, due to the implications of sending it to the past…which I think is what the panic is about in the video.

    I didnt fully understand this question, could you restate it for me please…

    ” And how if Chang doesn’t send the bunny back a paradox is avoided or why the two timelines are together?”

    As for the rest of the comments, Im pretty sure I say several times that I am simply applying logic to the video and the topic of conversation to explain what is actually more of a reference to your idea of an alternate timeline.

    Im not saying in any way is related to what you believe is an Alt timeline in the show…just to show that they can exist if the video is under the same rules as the show…This, if anything, helps your theories….its proving them to be possible…nothing more…

    I state several times in the theory and comments that I do not want this to turn into a debate page.
    You are right…I dont know whats going on! This is simply entertaining for me…

    I try to help when I can.
    I try to set a good example for newcomers (this not being one).
    I place my theories and sometimes confirm the category and explain the purpose.
    I find myself a generally nice (NOT GOOD)theorist on this site…and I still deal with people who just dont get it…I am polite to you…I get what you and others are saying, I just dont agree.

    I put this in fun, I avoid your theories, not out of avoiding the confrontation, but because I disagree so much sometimes that I have nothing to say at all…

    I apologize to anyone else here, and although I am done DEBATING the topic of how it would converge to one or relates to the show…I am still more than happy to answer questions pertaining to the original purpose of the post…which is simply to prove that Alternate timelines exist…
    Again I apologize to everyone else…

  33. Well AES, I for one have quite enjoyed visiting this post because its helped me get my head around AT due to your example.. so i am all for your rant 🙂
    If we were to debate on how it will happen or how/if it will converge then it would be in the debate section. This was put here to help people like me and Bailey understand the concept and you did a good job at that 🙂

  34. I just don’t get how 2 bunnies in the same place at the same time is an alternate timeline because they are together in the one timeline? I guess it’s taken me a round about way of saying that, but that’s all, from your original post, I don’t get that bit. No debate, just asking for clarification.

  35. I used to teach film theory at a university and part of running a “class” is dealing with questions – they help you focus more clearly on what you’re teaching, too. (I found this out the hard way trying to explain “Lost Highway”) 🙂

    As for my 2 cents (putting this a bit further in danger of becoming a debate, but it’s up to you): I’m including them as they relate to a few interesting things. This scene is something I touched on in my Ajira Alt theory, but never ended up going into on the boards because it was a loose thread.

    I think this scene is indeed a time loop rather than an example of an alt, for 2 reasons – both relating to Back to the Future.

    1. This scene is a reverse example of the Einstein the dog gets sent into the future by 1 minute experiment in BTTF1. Imagine if the Doc had sent him 1min into the past – you’d get this identical scenario. Except here it has happened accidentally.

    2. In BTTF2 Doc is concerned about a paradox if the 2 Jennifers come into contact with each other. (Sound familiar?) The problem being that if the future self freaks out the original self too much and it drops dead, we have a paradox, which would cause the unravelling of the space-time continuum, etc. So, I think the logical thing Chang would do is send the bunny back to the past (IE follow the experiment through).

    So we are left with a loop that is at most course-corrected by Chang, or at least always happened like that as a loop in time. It’s not an alt in the way I decribed things as splintered time (or forked time as I think you put it.

    Now, as a quasi-reason 3; the reason I left this out of my Ajira theory is that what got me started on coming up with that one was the 2 John Lockes and how it could be. My mind kept going back to these bunnies. I was thinking it’s a clue, and this scene combined with Chang mentioning the casimir effect in this video (look it up – too complex to explain here) made me start putting a few things together.

    My problem is I don’t have QUITE enough info from the show to resolve the vague connection in my head. But long story short, if an alternate timeline occurs, it is because the origninal occurred, and both have to co-exist until course-correction kicks in. Locke was always destined to go to the island, but in the new version, he’s followed a “better” course. (Think ~cringe~ the Gwynneth Paltrow movie Sliding Doors). But one of him is dead in this temporarily splintered timeline, so no danger of bunnies/Jennifers-killing-each-other paradoxes.

  36. Hi A.E.S.

    I understand your logic.

    However, I think your timelines 1 and 2 are describing the same scenario.

    “The two timelines are as followed…

    1)The timeline that Chang sent the rabbit, allowing it to be sent back too far…causing there to be two bunnies…the one that was on the table, and the one that appeared on the shelf. (I have NO idea why its on the shelf)

    and

    2)The timeline that recieved the (on the shelf) bunny BEFORE the experiment began, thus never sending the bunny (on the table) in the first place.”

    Both of these seem to be explaining the scenario where the bunny was sent back in time. Correct me if I’m wrong, but shouldn’t one of these timelines be where the bunny is successfully sent to the future and returned to the correct time (no bunny on shelf?).

    Other than that I get what you’re saying, and you’ve chosen a great scene to explain it.

  37. Sawyergirl…I am happy to see this was helpful.
    As for the debatig, I really didnt want to do it here for the simple reason that it was really meant for people to UNDERSTAND my view…not to DEBATE or even discuss it.

    My mind has been set on it for quite some time, and I dont think anthing is going to change it except the show.

    As for the “converging” of the timelines, I really dont have an opinion of that because I dont think its going to happen that way. I think that the bunny direction is the direction it will go…I cant say more than that because I am writing a theory now explaining my opinion.

    And Im still not saying it hasnt already occured…Im just saying that it is still only an option, and I can not express at this exact moment how much I wish we already knew the truth.

    Im very happy you have enjoyed this, and hopefully you come back to another one of my thoughts that turns into madness, lol…

  38. I think a few people are understanding it as that the bunny was “sent into the future, then went to the past”, which it wasn’t. It simply hadn’t been (accidentally) sent to the past _yet_.

    Can’t wait to see your theory on what you think will happen, AES!

  39. i actually understand this, very good.

    i have a theory as how it could be explained via WHH.

    they were experimenting on sending the bunny(bunny1) but because of the new bunny(bunny2) appearing on top of the shelf they Postponed it..

    at a later date they decided to try the experiment again. bunny 1 has now been aged into bunny 2.

    they tried sending bunny2 to the future.
    but the machine malfunctioned. causing bunny2 to move to another time and space. the new time being the time of experimentA, and the new space being the top of the shelf.

  40. Tas…before I go any further, I just want to tell you that one of the reasons it drives me nuts that you disagree so with my line of thought is because I really think we see this much similar than you believe(except for you are all in that they were trying to create clones)…we just dont have the same outcome on the theory side of it.

    Its not an alternate timeline because there are two bunnies in it…

    Let me ask you this…Trinity, Jimbo, or Tas…Where did the bunny on the shelf come from when it appeared, regardless of if was accidental or not…?

  41. A.E.S – I hope you didn’t think I was disagreeing with you in my last comment. I was just suggesting that the two timelines should have been:

    1. Where the bunny was sent back in time and ended up on the shelf much to Changs horror

    2. After this event, Chang doesn’t send the bunny back in time therefore creating a new reality where the bunny didn’t end up on the shelf.

    That’s my perspective of how it will create an alternate reality anyway.

  42. Trinity – I can’t see how that would happen without causing a paradox. Damon is anti-paradox. He hates those suckers. Mentions avoiding them all the time.

    AES – My guess would be, say 1 minute or so in the future – however long it takes for him to shove it in the chamber and hit the button or whatever to send it to the past. IE, he is yet to complete the experiment, which he knows he has to do, or would be in danger of causing a paradox. It’s another circle – like the compass, just more self-contained.

  43. trinity: I cannot answer for A.E.S but, I believe that he did present it correctly… A.E.S is looking at Chang being a smart man and knows that it doesn’t matter now if he does the experiment again or not…

    If Chang doesn’t redo the experiment, he still has two bunnies. And if Chang does redo the experiment by sending one of the bunnies to the past, that bunny will still return, always leaving Chang with two bunnies. Or, what if something goes wrong when he sends the bunny to the past, he could now have three bunnies??? Oh, the irony! 🙂

    So, the only way the experiment can be corrected, is for Chang “himself” to go the past, possibly a few minutes before the experiment ever started to make sure the machine is set properly. Therefore, there will “never” be a second bunny on the shelf.

    But, if you believe in WHH then by Chang going to the past to correct this mistake the mistake will still happen, always leaving Chang with two bunnies… But, if Chang is successful in changing the past, when he returns to his own timeline then the question is; does he still have two bunnies in his timeline therefore creating an alternate timeline, or will the second bunny cease to exist merging itself with the original bunny?

    Hope that didn’t confuse anyone… It makes complete sense in my head 🙂

  44. Yojimbo – as far as I can see if they’re going to go down the alternate timeline route it’s going to be a paradox anyway.

    They’re going to detonate the bomb in 1977 to avoid Flight 815 from crashing, but to ever be in that situation in 1977 they need Flight 815 to crash. Paradox.

    You can’t have it both ways.

  45. No, no, I get that Trinity…sorry, I was commenting late last night…
    My apologies for breaking away for a bit…Ive been discussing almost nothing but this here all week and needed some AES time, lol, this was breaking my brain

    I will comment further on it tonight when I can…

    Thanks again for the back up and understanding…

    Jimbo and Tas, Ill be on later for a response as well to you comments…

  46. That’s not what they said about paradox…they said they weren’t going to EXPLAIN them.

    To say they don’t exist on the show is incorrect.

    Its either they go back and cause the Change…grandfather paradox…
    Or they actually cause whh….predestination paradox

    No real way around that.

  47. My cloning theory isn’r something I’d put money on but it is an interesting effect of the chamber, if you can make it work. Scientists would go crazy over that possibility.

    The bunny came from the future, but the future of the same timeline. I agree with Yojimbo, in that I think Chang would have completed to the experiment as is so to avoid a paradox.

    My only issue with whay you are saying is calling it alternate. For me, an alternate needs to be different and seperate (like JJs diagram). We’d have to see two different versions of the bunny event running seperately from each other. I understand the experiment and agree with your description until we don’t see what happens next. It’s just not what I mean when I talk about an alt timeline and from reading his comments, I think Yojimbo agrees with me. I guess I feel that if people apply what they have taken from this to my thoughts on an alt, it won’t match up because the bunnies are together in 1 timeline, not 2. I think this is why we were disagreeing in previous posts, your interpretation of an alt is different to mine so we aren’t talking about the same thing.

    They did say there weren’t going to be any paradoxes, the idea of a time split into 2 timelines does avoid it.

  48. Elsewhere – If Chang doesn’t follow through with the experiment, he would likely be facing a paradox. Don’t forget – it’s not “redo”ing – it hasn’t happened yet. If he DOES follow through, he ISN’T left with 2 bunnies as he has sent one back to the past to complete the loop.

    Trinity. Yes I can. That’s why I wrote a whole theory around it, and thats what the threads have all been about with people discussing how there’s already an alt re Dharmaville changes, Ajira numbers etc. You were part of those discussions! Don’t you remember?

    AES – NUMEROUS times Damon & Carlton have said they spent all of their S5 writing avoiding paradoxes. I agree with what you’re saying about the nature of the 2 versions of paradox, and that’s why I conceptualised the theory I’m backing in the way that I have. The Desmond-style time skips will be their writing (and quite possibly the actual) loophole. Everyone forgets – WE’VE BEEN SHOWN THIS ALT STUFF BEFORE ON THE SHOW with Desmond. Changes can occur but course correction still takes place. Thus with Chang, the events morph from what “originally” may have happened, but Chang likely still follows through and it’s corrected.

    Tas – I agree with you, just not about the cloning motivation. 😉 But yes, I think this one is self-contained. It’s just a self-correcting causal loop.

  49. Wow Yojimbo – I guess I must’ve forgotten all about those discussions. Maybe it was in an alternate universe?

    I believe in Whatever Happened, Happened, so regardless of my previous discussions on alternate universes, and your whole theory on how it could happen, it still doesn’t stop the fact that alt universe = paradox.

    If the alternate universe STARTS in 1977 when Juliet detonates the bomb, then in this alternate universe Flight 815 doesn’t crash.

    But if Flight 815 doesn’t crash then the events that lead up to Juliet detonating the bomb in 1977 CAN’T happen. Therefore Juliet won’t be there to detonate the bomb that stops Flight 815 from crashing, causing Flight 815 to crash.

    Etc. etc. Paradox.

    You can’t have alternate universes without causing a paradox.

  50. TAS!!! That is it…

    You said…
    “it won’t match up because the bunnies are together in 1 timeline, not 2″

    You are right!!!

    That is it..they are together in ONE timeliine…but one of them is FROM the other timeline!!!

    EVEN if Chang DOES send the bunny to the correct location/time once he realizes, we STILL have the original timeline where he sent it to the wrong place, and the timeline where he sent it to the right place once he realized his mistake…

    The bunny appeared BEFORE the experiment began.

    Im a believer in the butterfly effect, and this would be an example.

    What wouldnt be simply a butterfly effect, would be to apply a human subject and NOT return it leaving 2 of the same people…

    OR return it and fix his mistake, leaving the knowledge of what would happen with the PAST subject, before the experiment even began…thus giving us one subject from the future who has no idea why he is sent to the past and sees himself 5 minutes(or however long ago), and the subject in the past with the knowledge of what is going to happen…

    If Chang realizes his mistake, and doesnt do it once the bunny appears on the shelf, corrects the mistake he is aware he makes in the future, negating it, there is still a timeline where the mistake is made, and one where it is not.

    There are a series of ways to interperet this scenario, mine is one…

    There is still a timeline that Chang sends the bunny wrong…he recieves it in the past before he sends it…and sends it back/to the right place/whatever…he STILL didnt have two bunnies in the original timeline when he made his miscalculation…

    The mistake is corrected AFTER he sends them both again.
    It doesnt matter if he realizes that there was a mistake and sends it correctly or not, because the mistake that was there in the first timeline, was not there in the second due to realizing his mistake!

    Either way, you have a timeline where Chang sends the bunny incorrectly, and one where he either fixes it…IN THE PAST…or doesnt fix it IN THE PAST…
    Which gives us our 2 differnt timelines…

    All it has to be to be an alternate timeline is a timeline that has a difference from the original one.
    Something has to be different.

    I apologize if you two do not understand me, but I cannot continue to debate something here I dont want to.

    This wasnt intended for that purpose.
    It was to help people, which it seems to have for many.

    The bottom line is that the three of us seem to believe that there is going to be an alternate timeline play SOME sort of role on the show.
    It seems that we all believe that the bomb will be a reason of it occuring.

    Due to the amount of scenarios that can be developed off of the bunny idea, I really dont think you two are going to buy into this, which is fine.
    You understand what I am saying…you just dont agree…that is, again, the difference.

    I know Yojimbo, you want to know what my theory is, but I am not going to put out a theory telling my side of the story, pertaining to alt timelines, throw in a bunch of other things, then spend sixty plus comments there talking about the rubbish we are here…which is why I want people to understand me on this, so whether you agree with me or not…I am not talking about this the whole time…

    I am going back to theorizing the show itself.

    Again, I am more than willing to answer questions on this, and help people understand…IF THEY WANT TO…but I cannot help anyone understand that already has there heart set on a different idea, understanding, or theory…which is why we are all here and there is a debate page.

    If there are others that see this as making sense, I must be doing something right.
    ———————-

    I must ask this question before I am done though…

    ” It’s just a self-correcting causal loop.”

    How does this, or anything like it simply “self correct”…?
    Not being a smart ass, curious of how it would do so…

  51. Trinity and Yojimbo…you dont have to agree that there is an alternate timeline or not on Lost to get this…

    This is just an example of what could cause one to exist.

    I used bunnies because we saw them on the show.
    I hope my last example applying a person clears this up.

    Trinity, I could be wrong, but its my understanding that you fully interperet what I am saying here, you just dont agree that it will play out on Lost…?

    Please tell me yes….lie to me…I dont care, lol…

  52. Oh, lol, by the way, whoever said it…Tas maybe, regarding what the producers said about paradoxs on Lost….lol, they also said long ago, that there would be no time travel on Lost…
    I dont know about you…but Im guessing they lie sometimes…
    The whole show is a paradox…thats all I can say on that subject…

  53. I’m not disagreeing just for the sake of it, I can’t see how the scenario that we’ve been shown plays out into 2 timelines. I’ve been asking questions to try and figure out where the 2 timelines are in your example, agreeing with trinity what you have explained is just the one timeline as a different one would have no extra bunny appear. I think (sorry if I am wrong)that you have ‘fictionalised’ what happens next to explain a then IF this happened , then IF that happened, we could be shown 2 timelines? and I think Yojimbo and I have been stuck on the idea that your ‘then ifs’ aren’t what we think happened and are staying a bit closer to just the video footage???

    On what Damon and Carlton have said or not said, any comments I make come from what I remember hearing directly from the podcasts not what someone said they heard. I recently listened to the podcasts again through my rewatch and I found them to be quite honest, I don’t recall them saying there would be no time travel. The one thing I did pick up on and wrote down because it threw me was, after The Constant they said (almost quote) nothing that they do can change anything in the past or future THAT WE’VE SEEN. The flashforwards are not changable as far as time travel goes.

    This IS theorising about the show and I’m sorry that you feel that answering questions which challenge you is ‘rubbish’. It just seems a bit of a cop out that you are happy to disagree (you have every right to, as do we) on other’s ideas but when asked to put your cards on the table and explain your ‘side of the story’ in more detail than just you are an advocat for change somehow, you say no. I just don’t get your motivation, if you don’t want to debate alt timelines why did you post this as your ‘classroom’ on alts? And why can’t we question you? Only people you agree with can ask questions? I thought this was what the site was about, people throwing out ideas, some we agree with, some we don’t, some we want to question and challenge. I don’t disagree with everything you say, we just differ on this topic. Obviously my questions upset you so I won’t comment either way on any of your theories in the future.

  54. I don’t think this is relevant to alt timelines but I’ve been reading old theories just to see what has been discussed before that might have slipped thru our understanding and found this one One Dead Mouse does not A Paradox Make written by Coolbeans. It is relevant to the rat Eloise and may be a way out of certain paradoxes. Not the rabbit one though. Check it out.

  55. AES – I for one am not trying to argue with you. This is a discussion. The whole point of discussing ideas and theories is to exchange ideas critically. Without that we are left with people just trying to bignote themselves or fanfiction masturbation. That’s why I think threads like this are good, and not something to be dropped. Ditto why I’m asking what your theory you like for the next part of the show is. But it’s up to you. But it’s pointless me trying to explain my insight to you any further if I’m not getting turnaround.

    Having said that, the thing with the loop – like the compass – we are SEEING the “reality” where it is a closed loop where this event is concerned. It has already BEEN self-corrected. The first occurrence CAN only be a theoretical one.

    Trinity – just check out my Alt Timeline Started with Ajira theory if you want.

  56. Tas…I dont really know what to say about the “what if” comment, except…”What if there are alternate timelines?”

    Im sorry, I wasnt aware that my “Fun” explanation on a “Theory” site was not meant to have “what ifs” when pertaining to a video that was never aired on the show, which I state in the main post itself, which I believe is connected to me saying that in retrospect…this means nothing at all.

    And also that since there is no actual evidence on the show saying that there is Alternate Timelines at this point, they themselves are nothing more than one big theory that many people agree with…
    Do you know there are still people who are still not sure “if” there are alternate timelines on Lost…some who plain out dont believe the THEORIES they read.

    Although I am flattered that you and a few others, although not agreeing/understanding with what I am saying, continue to ask these questions try to learn what I am attempting…futiley it seems, to present.

    I am not sure what part of my theory this is directed at…

    “The flashforwards are not changable as far as time travel goes.”

    The “No Time Travel” quote was a quote in a magazine from around the first or second season, maybe even third, give me a couple of days, and I will dig it up and post a link…………..just to be sure.

    And no, no, no…answering questions isnt rubbish, answering the same question over and over again….explaining the same thing over and over again…to people who a) dont really want me to be correct, and b) are completely ,STILL SOMEHOW, not understanding what I am saying in regards that this was not at all intended for you…
    This was meant for people who “cannot wrap their heads around” other examples of alt timelines.
    You clearly “cannot wrap your head around” this one, as several have, so it would be best if you probably went to one of the other mentioned examples, as several others have, which are listed throughout the comments section.

    This is NOT a theory, I dont know how else to say it. This is HELPING.
    As some couldnt understand NOT how an Alternate timeline could work on Lost, NOT as to what is going on with the current, or any other situation, but just alternate timelines…its simplicity has been carried further by you then intended by me.

    As for not agreeing with people….
    I DISAGREE WITH EVERYONE AT SOME POINT HERE!!!!

    That doesnt mean I pollute their posts with nonsense and yes…rubbish, even when asked that if they dont get it by now, to walk away and not take away from others.

    See Tas, this is not something that you watch Lost 1000 times or listen to podcasts daily to theorize, uncover, and expose…

    This is something that is to be comprehended…as it has been by several people…some of whom enjoyed and even thanked me for writing it.

    Ive said several tims that everyone wouldnt get it, Asked for help in explaining/presenting it, and even agreed with a few people that presented their side, some coinciding with mine…some not.

    Trinity and I have pleasant interactions everyday here, and we disagree about “What happened happened”, which is/was pretty much the biggest debate of the entire show.

    We respect each other fine, and can understand each other in a way that you and I cannot. I get along with many people who cant answer my questions, or I cant answer theirs. That happens here…it is a THEORY site…and MOST people do not agree on every, if not anything…and that doesnt mean this has to occur.

    You can see my responses to you, everytime you commented I TRIED to get it to you…just wasnt meant to be…

    I think that there are plenty of people on this site that disagree with me who I have probably pissed off… probably more than once, and I answer their questions anytime. I get along with them. Hell, Im actully friends with people here…you believe that…? me…friends with people off the site that I disagree with almost daily on the site!!! NUTS!

    Its not that I cant answer your questions, as I stated, I have done so several times.

    Its just that I dont want to answer your SAME question or the other ones, because I number one… am tired of doing so, two…really dont think that if one of the producers walked out on the TV tomorrow and said “TAS AES IS CORRECT”, that you would believe me. And third…take it how you want it at this point…really dont care if you get it, lol…

    Maybe people got it, maybe they didnt, but if anyone can explain it to Tas to help her more, please do…I wish I could.

    WE have BOTH now said that agree on some things, just not other aspects…
    You obviously ALREADY believe and have your way of describing them, so yes, as mentioned waaaaaay back in the actual post…this FUN DEBATE was never actually meant for people who already get it…ie…you…

    Well, at least in this mess of comments we finally agree on something…you really may just not want to visit my theories, in fun or anywhere else…Very sorry again for the misunderstanding, and Im joking about you not visiting…couldnt imagine a post without you…

  57. Yojimbo, honestly, no explanation necessary, you either dont comment as much as Tas, or lol, just dont care about my thoughts as much…either way…I really did try and answer your questions.

    Ive spoken with you on other posts, mostly disagreeing lol, and I try, and usually do understand what you are talking about.

    We dont agree, and I get that you and Tas agree on nearly everything on the show, using each other as references and help, as I do with other theorists…

    Like this loop thing, I think I am getting it…and I think I do agree with this one.

    Do you think that the people inside of the loop are the cause of the “self correction” or more of a natural occurance?

    I guess that would help clarify my agreement or not…I will be checking out your theory as well…I have trouble remembering through the ridiculous amount I and others have been laying out.

    Also, I am glad you appreciated my intention here even though you and I do not really agree on the scenario.

    I promise, I will put something out with my thoghts about what is happening with all this bfore the season starts…

    For an idea, see brondar1 and …I cant believe Im going to say this…highbrows recent theory on the main page…they are similar in the fashion of the alternate timeline/loop/change I see in the future.

    On highbrow…talk about someone I have had a fair share of disagreements with…pretty much all last season on a similar topic…and have the utmost respect for…
    but when he reads this, if he even comments, lol…another 60+ comments if he still has it in him…

  58. AES – “Do you think that the people inside of the loop are the cause of the “self correction” or more of a natural occurance?”

    One and the same. It’s in this sort of scenario that I think WHH apllies.

  59. @Yojimbo,

    “Elsewhere – If Chang doesn’t follow through with the experiment, he would likely be facing a paradox. Don’t forget – it’s not “redo”ing – it hasn’t happened yet. If he DOES follow through, he ISN’T left with 2 bunnies as he has sent one back to the past to complete the loop.”

    I completely understand what you are saying about paradox. I guess redo was a poor choice of words on my part… But, my point was that in the timeline in which Chang is left with two bunnies, if he does decide to follow through and send one back to the past, the machine is set to return the bunny back to him… So, Chang will always have two bunnies! Unless you are saying that the bunny stays in the past? But, wouldn’t that still be a paradox? Because, there is now a bunny left out there wandering in the past where it was not left to wander in the first place… You can’t correct a mistake in the present that has already been made in the past! Unless, you have the capability of going to the past and try to correct it yourself…

    At this point I’m feeling sorry for these bunnies. lol! And, my head hurts…

    And as far as your loop is concerned, is it a time loop, causality loop, or possibly a mobius loop?

  60. @Elsewhere – No – he isn’t left with 2 bunnies, just one that co-exists with itself for a period of time as a part of the loop.

    To re-reference Back to the Future, it’s like when Marty comes back 10 minutes early at the end of part one, but his second earlier self still leaves.

    The bunny still gets sent back to BECOME the bunny that appears on the shelf, which is presumably the one they “keep”.

    By my definition it would be all 3, but hard to tell as we’re guessing at circumtextual events.

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