Comments on: Jacob’s Game http://www.theoriesonlost.com/2010/01/jacobs-game/ A place to write and read Lost Theories Thu, 17 May 2012 19:43:17 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Joshcgs http://www.theoriesonlost.com/2010/01/jacobs-game/#comment-21697 Joshcgs Wed, 06 Jan 2010 02:31:54 +0000 http://www.theoriesonlost.com/?p=7629#comment-21697 Agreed, In my perfect world everything would be explained realistically, not some bs because i am magical, and we wouldnt have two time lines, just flash to the future and the war begins. I know at some point in the season they will all come together on the island and I (hopefully we) will get to see what we have been waiting for. Agreed,

In my perfect world everything would be explained realistically, not some bs because i am magical, and we wouldnt have two time lines, just flash to the future and the war begins.

I know at some point in the season they will all come together on the island and I (hopefully we) will get to see what we have been waiting for.

]]> By: Tas http://www.theoriesonlost.com/2010/01/jacobs-game/#comment-21696 Tas Wed, 06 Jan 2010 01:57:26 +0000 http://www.theoriesonlost.com/?p=7629#comment-21696 I agree that we are talking around each other. But personal beliefs play a huge part in how each of us 'read' Lost, your comments on the importance of observation shows that, we all bring ourselves to any text we read or view that's what make great fiction great, our personal connection with the story no matter what our back story. That's what makes Lost so interesting, we can have this really interesting discussion coming from different perpsectives which gets you thinking, maybe not change your mind, but it all definately gets you thinking. Don't give up on the sci-fi. Believe the writers will stay true to the intent of Lost as a sci-fi show. They'll deilver without magic ;). It's been a good debate. I agree that we are talking around each other. But personal beliefs play a huge part in how each of us ‘read’ Lost, your comments on the importance of observation shows that, we all bring ourselves to any text we read or view that’s what make great fiction great, our personal connection with the story no matter what our back story. That’s what makes Lost so interesting, we can have this really interesting discussion coming from different perpsectives which gets you thinking, maybe not change your mind, but it all definately gets you thinking.
Don’t give up on the sci-fi. Believe the writers will stay true to the intent of Lost as a sci-fi show. They’ll deilver without magic ;) .
It’s been a good debate.

]]> By: Joshcgs http://www.theoriesonlost.com/2010/01/jacobs-game/#comment-21694 Joshcgs Wed, 06 Jan 2010 01:18:20 +0000 http://www.theoriesonlost.com/?p=7629#comment-21694 I mentioned POV in a different theory/thread and know that it is possible someone appears not to be aging but it is really the result of them traveling through time. I just think it seems as though Richard and Jacob do it quite conveniently. As for Jacob leaving the island - doubtful that he would just turn the wheel it has obvious consequences and I don't see him getting on the sub. You think he has a private boat or plane hidden somewhere in the shadow of the statue? Believe me I don't want to succumb to the idea of a fantasy show, but as I said earlier, thats what it appears to be. You will find a way to negate anything I say and I you. This debate is really going no where we are going to have to let season 6 show us the way. *Sidenote* Let's not get into our own personal religious beleifs, stick with fiction! I mentioned POV in a different theory/thread and know that it is possible someone appears not to be aging but it is really the result of them traveling through time. I just think it seems as though Richard and Jacob do it quite conveniently.

As for Jacob leaving the island – doubtful that he would just turn the wheel it has obvious consequences and I don’t see him getting on the sub.

You think he has a private boat or plane hidden somewhere in the shadow of the statue?

Believe me I don’t want to succumb to the idea of a fantasy show, but as I said earlier, thats what it appears to be.

You will find a way to negate anything I say and I you. This debate is really going no where we are going to have to let season 6 show us the way.

*Sidenote*

Let’s not get into our own personal religious beleifs, stick with fiction!

]]> By: Tas http://www.theoriesonlost.com/2010/01/jacobs-game/#comment-21691 Tas Wed, 06 Jan 2010 01:05:13 +0000 http://www.theoriesonlost.com/?p=7629#comment-21691 Benthan has been quoted as saying "I will be the gaoler. You will see ... that the gaoler will have no salary — will cost nothing to the nation." As the watchmen cannot be seen, they need not be on duty at all times, effectively leaving the watching to the watched. Because the prisoners could never see who was watching or when or where, they felt watched all of the time, thus behaving even if no one was there. I don't think observation is the point, but then that comes down to a massive philosophical issue. I don't 'act' because I think someone is watching. I don't believe in the Christian god, someone who is 'keeping score' as such so I need to do the right thing to get into heaven. I act the way I do because I need to treat people and the world with the same respect I would like to be treated with, not so that I can go to heaven because a higher power is watching. On Jacob's powers: (Locke has also looked the same to Widmore over 50 years - it's all about point of view) 1. Richard, Ben, Locke, Tom the O6, Michael, Walt, Eloise, Des, Widmore have all left the island using a variety of methods - they've used the scientific casimir effect to explain the FDW, so he doesn't need to be special to have left. 2. We don't know that Locke was dead, people have been known to survive unbelievable events. 3. There's been lots of time travel so combined with a understanding of how the FDW works can easily explain the visits to the Lostie kids. 4. Maybe he spoke to the captian of the ship back on the mainland and told him about this wonderful, special island and how to find it. Instructions on how to get to the island seem to have been in the ledger (Widmore bought it then could find the island after years of exile?) 5. We don't know how or what Richard actually is - that whole storyline has been purposefully ambiguous. he may just time travel, he may have been affected by the electromagnetic properties of the island (the island is special). All can be reasonably explained without Jacob needing to be godlike. Again, your ideas may turn out to be correct, I'll be really disappointed if so, not beacuse I want to be right but because I didn't think I was watching a fantasy TV show, and that's what it would have become. Benthan has been quoted as saying “I will be the gaoler. You will see … that the gaoler will have no salary — will cost nothing to the nation.” As the watchmen cannot be seen, they need not be on duty at all times, effectively leaving the watching to the watched. Because the prisoners could never see who was watching or when or where, they felt watched all of the time, thus behaving even if no one was there.
I don’t think observation is the point, but then that comes down to a massive philosophical issue. I don’t ‘act’ because I think someone is watching. I don’t believe in the Christian god, someone who is ‘keeping score’ as such so I need to do the right thing to get into heaven. I act the way I do because I need to treat people and the world with the same respect I would like to be treated with, not so that I can go to heaven because a higher power is watching.
On Jacob’s powers: (Locke has also looked the same to Widmore over 50 years – it’s all about point of view)
1. Richard, Ben, Locke, Tom the O6, Michael, Walt, Eloise, Des, Widmore have all left the island using a variety of methods – they’ve used the scientific casimir effect to explain the FDW, so he doesn’t need to be special to have left.
2. We don’t know that Locke was dead, people have been known to survive unbelievable events.
3. There’s been lots of time travel so combined with a understanding of how the FDW works can easily explain the visits to the Lostie kids.
4. Maybe he spoke to the captian of the ship back on the mainland and told him about this wonderful, special island and how to find it. Instructions on how to get to the island seem to have been in the ledger (Widmore bought it then could find the island after years of exile?)
5. We don’t know how or what Richard actually is – that whole storyline has been purposefully ambiguous. he may just time travel, he may have been affected by the electromagnetic properties of the island (the island is special).

All can be reasonably explained without Jacob needing to be godlike. Again, your ideas may turn out to be correct, I’ll be really disappointed if so, not beacuse I want to be right but because I didn’t think I was watching a fantasy TV show, and that’s what it would have become.

]]> By: Joshcgs http://www.theoriesonlost.com/2010/01/jacobs-game/#comment-21688 Joshcgs Wed, 06 Jan 2010 00:44:52 +0000 http://www.theoriesonlost.com/?p=7629#comment-21688 What the hell is the point of a lack of observation, then you are not learning anything. atleast observe people who don't know they are being observed or can't tell. but the observation itself is the point, like a two way mirror. What the hell is the point of a lack of observation, then you are not learning anything.

atleast observe people who don’t know they are being observed or can’t tell.

but the observation itself is the point, like a two way mirror.

]]> By: Joshcgs http://www.theoriesonlost.com/2010/01/jacobs-game/#comment-21687 Joshcgs Wed, 06 Jan 2010 00:41:39 +0000 http://www.theoriesonlost.com/?p=7629#comment-21687 Seeing Jacob look exactly the same over the course of 200 years and his ability to 1. Leave the island (we are yet to know how) 2. Bring Locke back to life 3. Visit some losties as children 4. Taking responsibility for bringing people (the black rock) to the island. 5. Richard saying "Jacob made me this way" How can you deny him of having some sort of power? As for the Panopticon - not sure where you got your information, but it was used as a prison design system. "The concept of the design is to allow an observer to observe (-opticon) all (pan-) prisoners without the prisoners being able to tell whether they are being watched, thereby conveying what one architect has called the "sentiment of an invisible omniscience." People ARE being watched and they don't know it. Jeremy Bentham! c'mon they could have used any philosophers name. Seeing Jacob look exactly the same over the course of 200 years and his ability to

1. Leave the island (we are yet to know how)

2. Bring Locke back to life

3. Visit some losties as children

4. Taking responsibility for bringing people (the black rock) to the island.

5. Richard saying “Jacob made me this way”

How can you deny him of having some sort of power?

As for the Panopticon – not sure where you got your information, but it was used as a prison design system.

“The concept of the design is to allow an observer to observe (-opticon) all (pan-) prisoners without the prisoners being able to tell whether they are being watched, thereby conveying what one architect has called the “sentiment of an invisible omniscience.”

People ARE being watched and they don’t know it. Jeremy Bentham! c’mon they could have used any philosophers name.

]]> By: Tas http://www.theoriesonlost.com/2010/01/jacobs-game/#comment-21678 Tas Wed, 06 Jan 2010 00:16:17 +0000 http://www.theoriesonlost.com/?p=7629#comment-21678 I think we disagree on some of the big points, rather than the smaller details of your theory. I think that MIB and Jacob are just men and not godlike and that the argument is over how the island should be 'used'. Yes I have read The Illiad and am not going anywhere near the movie - but that isn't a sci-fi story so the underlying understanding of the world in which these two stories are being told is different. In The Illiad gods and their intervention was believed and accepted but it wasn't described as science. I think that the basis for Lost will be scientific in nature, I just can't go with super powers and gods and just believe because I haven't bought into a fantasy story, I bought into a sci-fi show. The panopticon was ultimately about the lack of observation - you can keep people under control with the impression of a watcher and therefore not need anyone there at all - no one is watching! I guess we need to agree to disagree on the big picture stuff, the joy of Lost, who knows ;) I think we disagree on some of the big points, rather than the smaller details of your theory. I think that MIB and Jacob are just men and not godlike and that the argument is over how the island should be ‘used’. Yes I have read The Illiad and am not going anywhere near the movie – but that isn’t a sci-fi story so the underlying understanding of the world in which these two stories are being told is different. In The Illiad gods and their intervention was believed and accepted but it wasn’t described as science. I think that the basis for Lost will be scientific in nature, I just can’t go with super powers and gods and just believe because I haven’t bought into a fantasy story, I bought into a sci-fi show.
The panopticon was ultimately about the lack of observation – you can keep people under control with the impression of a watcher and therefore not need anyone there at all – no one is watching!
I guess we need to agree to disagree on the big picture stuff, the joy of Lost, who knows ;)

]]> By: Joshcgs http://www.theoriesonlost.com/2010/01/jacobs-game/#comment-21660 Joshcgs Tue, 05 Jan 2010 22:04:04 +0000 http://www.theoriesonlost.com/?p=7629#comment-21660 Tas, I do not think they are mindless pawns, just that they are apart of something bigger then themselves. We talk about LOST being a possible game between Jacob & MIB, but what are they trying to prove to one another? I think Jacob wants to show MIB that people can change, they can live together and share the island. That they do not need to fight, destroy and corrupt everything. It seems as though the rules are to allow for free will, everyone is entitled to make their own decisions. The dreams/visions, trips to the cabin, visits from Jacob, all just influences, seeing if they will take the bait. Jack could have said you know what im not hungry anymore you can keep that Apollo bar. What would Jacob do then? Same wayhe gave Hurley & Ben a choice, its freewill, only the guitar case & "what about you" was a little push. ____________________________________________ Have you ever read The Iliad? A war between Troy & The Greeks (war coming on LOST between opposing teams) Achilles & Hector (Locke & Jack) Unlike the movie Troy, in the book the gods play a huge role intervening in the battle. Because some gods favor the Greeks and some the Trojans, they take sides. Some gods are more fair then others, some aid the ones they support. Achilles is only able to defeat Hector because Athena (who was in love with Achilles) brings his spear back to him without Hector noticing allowing Hector to be fooled. I only think this relates by showing all of these characters being watched and influenced by a higher power. ____________________________________________ LOST has repeatedly played into the theme of being watched with knowing it. Jeremy Bentham is famous for the Panopticon http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon Desmond says "we are stuck in a bloody snow globe" Walt's comic shows a city in a bubble, the city is in small scale to the rest of the picture as though it is being watched. There are probably more examples but I am tired. if anyone is wondering why I am so active today on the site, home sick with a cold :( Tas,

I do not think they are mindless pawns, just that they are apart of something bigger then themselves.

We talk about LOST being a possible game between Jacob & MIB, but what are they trying to prove to one another?

I think Jacob wants to show MIB that people can change, they can live together and share the island. That they do not need to fight, destroy and corrupt everything.

It seems as though the rules are to allow for free will, everyone is entitled to make their own decisions. The dreams/visions, trips to the cabin, visits from Jacob, all just influences, seeing if they will take the bait.

Jack could have said you know what im not hungry anymore you can keep that Apollo bar. What would Jacob do then? Same wayhe gave Hurley & Ben a choice, its freewill, only the guitar case & “what about you” was a little push.

____________________________________________

Have you ever read The Iliad?

A war between Troy & The Greeks
(war coming on LOST between opposing teams)

Achilles & Hector
(Locke & Jack)

Unlike the movie Troy, in the book the gods play a huge role intervening in the battle.

Because some gods favor the Greeks and some the Trojans, they take sides. Some gods are more fair then others, some aid the ones they support.

Achilles is only able to defeat Hector because Athena (who was in love with Achilles) brings his spear back to him without Hector noticing allowing Hector to be fooled.

I only think this relates by showing all of these characters being watched and influenced by a higher power.

____________________________________________

LOST has repeatedly played into the theme of being watched with knowing it.

Jeremy Bentham is famous for the Panopticon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon

Desmond says “we are stuck in a bloody snow globe”

Walt’s comic shows a city in a bubble, the city is in small scale to the rest of the picture as though it is being watched.

There are probably more examples but I am tired.

if anyone is wondering why I am so active today on the site, home sick with a cold :(

]]> By: Tas http://www.theoriesonlost.com/2010/01/jacobs-game/#comment-21659 Tas Tue, 05 Jan 2010 21:40:44 +0000 http://www.theoriesonlost.com/?p=7629#comment-21659 Josh, I agree that Locke has been easily manipulated his whole life by many, but to a degree he has been a willing participant because he wanted something out of it. I'm just going to be disappointed if they make it a case of all the characters being mindless pawns. I don't think the Losties have actively entered the game/war as yet but I see them more as random pieces moving themsleves without any understanding of the bigger picture and those who know whats going on are doing their best to work with them. To LilBoy, you can't suddenly make all the characters become self aware and reslove all character arcs like that, so what's the point of knowing about them if their lives on the island were so out of their control. We've been shown into the lives of the Losties in particular to see their personal growth, their different levels and degrees of awareness and acceptance of themsleves as part of the world. I guess to use "The Stand" as an example of what I mean - the main protagonists weren't fully aware of what they were dealing with through most of the story, by understanding Flagg and making the decision to act, and die in some cases they made the difference. They weren't 'played', they made their own decisions and choices all the time - just sometimes without much knowledge of the big picture. I see this as being really similar to the way the writers have set up these characters in Lost. Josh, I agree that Locke has been easily manipulated his whole life by many, but to a degree he has been a willing participant because he wanted something out of it. I’m just going to be disappointed if they make it a case of all the characters being mindless pawns. I don’t think the Losties have actively entered the game/war as yet but I see them more as random pieces moving themsleves without any understanding of the bigger picture and those who know whats going on are doing their best to work with them.
To LilBoy, you can’t suddenly make all the characters become self aware and reslove all character arcs like that, so what’s the point of knowing about them if their lives on the island were so out of their control. We’ve been shown into the lives of the Losties in particular to see their personal growth, their different levels and degrees of awareness and acceptance of themsleves as part of the world. I guess to use “The Stand” as an example of what I mean – the main protagonists weren’t fully aware of what they were dealing with through most of the story, by understanding Flagg and making the decision to act, and die in some cases they made the difference. They weren’t ‘played’, they made their own decisions and choices all the time – just sometimes without much knowledge of the big picture. I see this as being really similar to the way the writers have set up these characters in Lost.

]]> By: SawyersGirl45 http://www.theoriesonlost.com/2010/01/jacobs-game/#comment-21639 SawyersGirl45 Tue, 05 Jan 2010 20:08:15 +0000 http://www.theoriesonlost.com/?p=7629#comment-21639 guy just cant catch a break can he haha! guy just cant catch a break can he haha!

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