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What Happened, Happened… is just AN OPINION!

…stated by a character.
Faraday
The line of dialogue had an episode named after it.

It’s not a fact. I don’t know why people keep stating it as such. It may prove to be so, but events in S6 so far kind of run against it. At best, they make it redundant, because things do happen, but then a bunch of other stuff can also happen alongside it.

OK, so this is more of an argument / short rant than a theory. Bye.

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Yojimbo

30 thoughts on “What Happened, Happened… is just AN OPINION!

  1. it is a fact. the proof is in the fact that we’ve watched events play out caused by what happened in the past and you cannot change the past.

    the off island events we are watching do not prove that WHH is wrong, these events are independant from what is happening on the island. i really don’t believe that the writers will have taken us through 5 series worth of story to then turn round and so “oh by the way, all this has changed”.

  2. The storyline this season is both WHH and alt timelines.

    They’ve handled the situation perfectly.

    The theories before Season 6 started were either WHH or Alt timelines, but neither were a bit of both.

    Most of WHH theoriests (including myself) were adamant that the bomb wouldn’t cause an alt timeline. It would just send Jack and co. back to 2007.

    Most of the Alt timeline theories were about wiping the past 5 seasons worth of storyline and that Ajira was in the alt timeline, and Jack and co. dieing in the bomb blast.

    Both were kinda right and kinda wrong.

    But the writers have handled it brilliantly because even though there is an alt timeline, Whatever Happened did Happen.

    For the bomb to go off in 1977 the plane had to crash in 2004 for the events to lead up to that to happen. If they’d just wiped it then Jack and co. would never have been there in 1977 to set off the bomb.

  3. Obviously what we are seeing in the flash sideways disproves WHH. I invite all of you who don’t know anything about time travel and its consequences to go read up on it. There are at least three different philosophies on the consequences.

    1. Immutable time line theory is the same as WHH. I personally think it is the equivalent of time travel being impossible. It is stupid. But in fiction it is fine.

    2. A parallel universe is spawned from time travel, that avoids paradox.

    3. The same as number 2 except the original universe ceases to exist. I think this is the most plausible.

    Lost is using a modified number 2 I think. They have this thing called course correction, which helps prevent parallel universes from spawning. It may also work to merge parallel universes.

  4. BanLinus, so you’re happy to accept that 5 seasons worth of story is going to basically get erased and rewritten? in other words the writers will have wasted hours of our time.

    the fact that the writers knew from very early on how Lost will end tells me that they won’t erase everything that has happened. Whatever happened happened.

    If everything did get erased and rewritten, there’d be a worse backlash than when that series of Dallas turned out to be all just a dream.

  5. The events in the Alternate Timeline may disprove WHH, but the events on the island as they are now in 2007/08 prove that WHH.

    Without WHH the events in the Alternate Timeline would cease to exsist.

  6. Trinity and I-am-Jacob, did you guys actually read any of the alt timeline theories properly. Mine, which were based off an idea that yojimbo had was exactly what is happening – that we would see two timelines, one where the bomb didn’t go off and the timeline is as we have seen in seasons 1-5 thus avoiding a paradox. The act of setting off the bomb caused a split in time branching off an alt timeline where changes have occurred. Both running next to each other in parallel. This doesn’t negate anything, that’s the point. Yes the writers have covered both WHH and change, but trinity, to say that those if us who were alt timeline theorist only talked about one timeline is way off. Personally that comment really grates on me because I had a number of backward ond forward discussions with you but it seems you never actually ‘read’ the theories. Go back and have a look at a few, they describe the current circumstane pretty closely. Maybe after watching a few episodes you might get what we had been saying.

  7. Right on, Banlinus!

    The thing is, Lost is a construction, and people seem to forget this is science-FICTION. The writers are free to make up any rules that fit the causalities they want. Some writers run with WHH (Terminator), and others go with versions of numbers 2&3 of the above (T2, BTTF, etc.). IamJacob, are you saying just because a timeline is changed, it makes a text unfulfilling? That’s kind of weird logic, isn’t it. For every La Jettee / 12 Monkeys there are a bunch of great movies that ARE fulfilling because they change time. Most of the time, it’s the whole point / payoff of the narrative.

    Anyway, in Lost and the theories of WHH vs. ALTS. What I’m having a go at is people who are the mutual exclusivists – that have taken one line from a fictional show, spoken by a character (who then changed his mind!) as fact within the show. It’s like fundamentalist zealots who latch onto something in a religious text and take it WAY too literally.

    The reality is the writers of Lost are all about turning the tables, and not doing the obvious. As the person who first DID state before LA X that we would have both timelines play out (splintered time) it is kind of irritating that some people who were wrong at guessing what was going to happen are, ironically, still trying to rewrite history for themselves.

  8. Tas, I read your theories. Please don’t patronize me!

    I remember countless times how you were admanant that Sun, Locke etc. were in an ALT universe – different from where Jack and co. were in 1977 and that that universe was a result of the H-Bomb going off.

    Countless times you made points of “little” changes in 2007 Dharmaville to prove they were in an ALT universe. This can surely be disproven now since Sawyer went back to the house he and Juliet shared and found the engagement ring he was going to give to her.

    I don’t recall you saying that Jack and co. would end up back in 2007 from the H-Bomb. Infact I remember you being against this idea.

    The impression I got from you is that the H-Bomb killed Jack and co. and created an ALT universe where Sun and Locke are in now, and that Jack and co. would find a way back to the island in this ALT timeline.

    It’s clear that Sun and Locke etc. aren’t in an ALT timeline and Jack and co. didn’t die in the H-Bomb.

    You were always against Whatever Happened Happened, but now you’re claiming that you weren’t??

  9. Trinity, No I didn’t say that. I said that in 2007 the timelines had merged or begun to merge. That the changes seen in Dharmaville when Frank and Sun visited were evidence that something had changed. I said that the bomb created an alt timeline where events were going to be different from 1977 (which is what is happening now) I said that there would be two timelines, one which we have already seen and a new one (which is what we are seeing). Yes certain details aren’t spot on, if they were I should be being paid to write for Lost. Yes I did say I thought that Jack etc.. would die in 1977 so that when the timelines come together we don’t get two of everyone. I still stand by the intent of that, something is going to have to happen to them to eliminate double ups.
    My big problem with your comment is where you said that most alt timeliners wiped out the timeline that we saw in seasons 1-5. i’m sure that Yojimbo and Ban Linus (two people who copped a bit over their ideas of an alt timeline) would agree that our theories DID NOT say that, that’s why I asked whether you actual read them, not being patronising just annoyed that I spent so much time discussing with people like you, but you have been so focussed on our small details that you genuinely seemed to have missed the whole point of what was being said. I’m sure you can understand how your comment here makes all of our previous discussions a waste of time, being that this comment shows that you completely missed the point of what I said. Not wanting to be all ‘how dare you misunderstand’, it’s just frustrating that I spent so much time trying to explain something where you weren’t on the same page at all. I’m sure you can understand the frustration being felt when even after being shown to be pretty close with our theories, you are still telling us we are wrong.

  10. What I was getting at is that most ALT theories disagreed with WHH.

    I wrote a theory about Whatever Happened, Happened and you disagreed with it.

    I’m not saying you are wrong with your theories. You knew there was going to be an alternate universe / timeline of some sort.

    But your first comment on this theory came off as a little “I was right the whole time and I should get praise for it”. Seriously, read it back and it sounds like you want people to praise you for coming up with an alternate universe / timeline theory.

    You weren’t the only person to come up with this, alot of people had different ideas / views on how an ALT timeline would play out – but alot of these people disagreed with WHH. That’s what I’m trying to get at.

    You weren’t 100% wrong but you weren’t 100% right either.

  11. Hi Trinity, I’ll speak to your viewpoint rather than just your comment back to me.

    What I am attempting to make clear is that MY “alt” theory DIDN’T disagree with WHH. (Neither did Tas’s, I think…(?))

    I know I was right about certain things, and wrong about others. But unlike many, I happily came out admitted to where I was wrong. I didn’t try to rationalise. I’m happy to say the KIND OF big picture idea I was laying out is pretty much correct. The main area I didn’t bet on was Locke/Smokey. But I still think the function will come into play further into this season. We still have one Locke up our sleeve, and my Locke 2.0 that I argued as coming from the other timeline is just arriving late. 🙂

    What I take exception to is when other people step in and either try and rewrite history, ignore viewpoints, or flat out misunderstand them.

    If someone else coined the phrase “splintered time” ahead of me, I’m not aware of it, and would love to see a reference. But I do know of at least two people on this board that disagreed with it, but then plagiarised it when they saw which way the tide was flowing.

    You have so many people throwing totally crazy thoughts that aren’t even theories out there, but then act all high and mighty as thought they are all la-de-da, but for the most part they haven’t been right once in the last few months.

    I specifically wrote that just because WHH doesn’t mean other stuff can’t happen as well, then laid out my Splintered Time idea. Unlike many others, I was very specific both about my thoughts, and their connection to Lost – something so many people can’t manage to do. But in the time I’ve been reading / writing on this site, they were very unique. If for no other reason, than because I didn’t fall into this trap of mutual exclusivity of what did/could happen.

    This is the point of this thread – certain people are so fixated by simplistic ideas of black and white / or WHH/alt in this show, when the show is anything but; OR they go way overboard and try and come up with totally crazy theories that somehow make some people think they’re intelligent when they are completely nonsensical. (My qualifaction to make that call? I lectured in Film at PhD level at a major uni.) In all honesty? We would have failed some of the “grand theories” here, their logic is so bad, not to mention incoherent. Not trying to be mean. It’s just a fact. Please don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to say “You all suck!” – just that complex doesn’t necessarily equal intelligent.

    Gee, this really IS a rant thread, huh? 😉

    Anyway, my point… Finally!

    I’m just trying to address that people have moved from arguing for something that was wrong, to playing stupid semantic games with the whole “alt” thing, and it really comes across as “If we move this stuff around and call it different things, it’ll show we weren’t wrong after all.”

    PS – As an aside, are you actually having a go at Tas for pointing out things that were out of place in the show? I remember saying at the time that either they’re relevant to the plot or the prop/continuity departments screwed up. At least he’s building thoughts on things that were actually presented in the show.

  12. I disagreed with your theory because it didn’t allow for both, all of my discussions pre LA X were about there being two timelines, about both existing. I’ve gotten my back up over your comment mis-repeating what the alt timeline advocats believe. I’m a little sensitive to that as I personally have dealt with a bit of heated discussion over my views and often had people try to explain what I was saying even though they didn’t believe it themselves, thus creating the sorts of misunderstandings we have here. My first comment wasn’t saying ‘hey I’m right’ it was wanting to clear up your statement about what myself and others had theorised which was inaccurate. I was just defending my point of view, because you has mis-used it. Im’ not right on everything, not by a long shot, but my base thoughts on how an alt timeline would play out have been pretty accurate, wouldn’t you like people to respect that if the shoe was on the other foot – I’ve been bagged repeatedly over my thoughts, but they are closer to the show than the people bagging them. I don’t want to keep going with this argument, I think if these theories had come out of certain other theorists brains, there would be mass praise for how wonderful and clever they were – the politics on this site can be a little frustrating. I just wanted to defend my views from BEFORE the season began because you mis-represented me, that’s all.

  13. “If someone else coined the phrase “splintered time” ahead of me, I’m not aware of it, and would love to see a reference.”

    I’m sorry – so because you said what we’re seeing is a “splinetered time” rather than an alternate timeline / universe / reality, that means you called it first?

    The whole point of the Season 5 finale was leading up to possibly change something, so I doubt you were to first to come up with an alternate timeline. To call it “splintered time” then yes, you were probably the only person to call it that, but that doesn’t mean you were the first one with the idea of what we’re seeing now.

    “But I do know of at least two people on this board that disagreed with it, but then plagiarised it when they saw which way the tide was flowing.”

    Plagiarised? So you’re saying your theory has some copyright on it and that if anyone else should dare come up with the same idea that’s plagiarism?

    Does that mean Tas has plagiarised your ideas? You two seem to share the same ideas so who came up with it first? One of you must be plagiarising the others theories!

    What about Darlton? I guess they must’ve plagiarised your ideas too.

    And like I said before in a different thread, what do you want people to do now that we KNOW there is an alternate timeline? Do you still expect them to write theories based on PRE-Season 6?

    Season 6 is about an alternate timeline / universe / reality / “splintered time” (all the same) – so people are going to write theories on why, who, what, when etc. based on this.

    To think that people are plaigerising your ideas sounds like you have a higher opinion of yourself than what we do. We don’t care who wrote what first, all that matters now is the events that are happening in Season 6.

  14. Trinity:
    1. Yes. Yes I did, and the fact that you can’t see the similarities between what I put forward and what’s happened on the show; and the difference between it and what the other people are saying means you just don’t get it.
    2. Look the word up. There’s something of an honour code in academia of citing references, and a pretty straightforward one in commerce. Tas and I, and Banlinus for that matter do toss around ideas, and give credit. But I came up with it first. What’s your point?
    3. I’ll take that as a rhetorical question.
    4. Not at all, I was making a different point. See those funny shaped things above. They’re called words. You may want to read them to derive meaning sometime.
    5. And good for them.
    7. Good thing I don’t consider you, Trinity, my peer.

  15. Jesus Wept.

    Yojimbo, I can see the similarities with what you wrote and what’s happening on the show. My point is, you claim to be the first to come up with this idea and anyone who dare come up with a similar idea after yours is committing plagiarism.

    This is a theory site. There are bound to be similar theories and thoughts from everyone. So if someone came up with the idea that John Locke was Smokey FIRST then everyone who said that afterwards is committing plagiarism?

    There’s no need to be so condescending and talking to me like an 8 year old…

    “See those funny shaped things above. They’re called words.”

    How old are you?

  16. I’m not even going to list the posts that mention an alternate timeline before your first post does. Let’s just say there is enough to know that you weren’t the first to come up with the idea.

  17. Thats a bit harsh. This conversation is getting a bit out of hand. This has always been a heated topic, the begining of the season hasn’t changed that it seems. Maybe all parties should chill out a bit and walk away? No one is going to change their minds or opinions of each other, so let’s just leave this thread alone.

  18. I’m not missing the point. You’re claiming to be the first person to come up with there being an Alt timeline in LOST.

    You weren’t.

    Even in that theory you just posted a link to in your first paragraph you say you’ve been reading other posts regarding alternate timelines.

    “At first, I figured, like many – that 1) We won’t know whether an alt timeline has ben created by a detonation of Jughead until S6”

    I’m not saying you were wrong with your theory. I’m just saying you can’t claim to be the first one to come up with the idea when you weren’t.

  19. …Slow breath out…

    No, I am not claiming that. Yes, there were others, and I considered them to be incorrect. I’m saying I was the first one to define the idea of a sort of splintered time where we get 2 realities co-existing.

    All you are doing is proving my point that you can’t get your head around what I’m saying. In all seriousness, just stop and take in what I’m saying.

    I’m saying I was the first person that I’m aware of to say “this is the sort of reality we’ll likely end up with” – and that reality was WHH meets alt in a splintered way.

  20. Trinity is right. Theories of alternative timelines/universes/realities popped up fairly soon after the season 5 finale, if not earlier.

    I don’t know when people started writing about them on this particular site, though.

    Many theorists were of course inspired by the revelation that season 6 would contain flash sideways, which I guess most of us learnt or understood many months ago.

  21. Ilie,
    Yeah I know, and I’m not arguing that they didn’t. I guess it depends on how specific you want to get about merits of one versus another.

    Look, there’s only so many ways I can say the same thing and I can’t keep repeating it.

  22. 815X doesn’t disprove WHH.

    Course correction could be tiny things that changed. Shannon’s got a boyfriend; they all got on a plane a month later …

    Indeed, even if there are BIG events, this could ALL be a course correction because, say, Dan was forced to do physics instead of music. Now he lays the guilt trip on her, maybe Ellie lets him do music an he never does ANY time-travel stuff so he doesn’t move Jughead and the Others all become mutant monsters, like they’re supposed to be (or maybe it causes a FlashForward, or draws “V” martians and Ana Lucia goes to that planet w/Avatars, and Ben’s the guy in Saw w/Miles a cop there … and that’s what we’re watching w/our Losties! It’s not an ATL, it’s their new reality!)

    We don’t know how far back the course correction goes and how insignificant our Losties are …

  23. “or maybe it causes a FlashForward, or draws “V” martians and Ana Lucia goes to that planet w/Avatars, and Ben’s the guy in Saw w/Miles a cop there … and that’s what we’re watching w/our Losties! It’s not an ATL, it’s their new reality!”

    waycurious, now you’re onto something – alternate movie! 🙂

  24. @ Waycurious. LOL. Yeah, I agree. With the concept, not necessarily blue alien involvement. But I’m thinking there will be some serious course correction going on with the sideways timeline. The best way to put it is that to me, WHH and an alt aren’t mutually exclusive. Some people are MEANT to do certain things to meet their “destiny”, in different ways than they did originally. I cite Charlie as an example. If WHH was as super strict as some people paint it, Desmond couldn’t have changed the context of his death – but doing so created BIG consequences. Maybe in the alt timeline, they’ll attend a Daniel Faraday concert before he’s tragically shot on stage by his Mum. 🙂

    @Ilie – So “V” will be morphed into Lost any day now…?

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