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Peripeteia, the Agon…and a Falling Star…

Im going to give a heads up that this is a long and confusing theory…dont say I didnt warn you…

“Catch a falling star and put it in your pocket,
Never let it fade away!
Catch a falling star and put it in your pocket,
Save it for a rainy day!”

So Jacob is ‘dead’…and now apparently is looking for someone to take his place to protect a place that MIB says doesnt need protecting…the island.

Lets for a minute pretend that the island is just an island. Lets pretend that its a place where time travel doesnt exist. Pretend that its a place that the dead dont roam. Pretend its a place that random living people such as Walt dont just pop up. Pretend it is a place where one cannot look into a mirror to see random locations around the world in different time periods. Pretend its a place where someone cannot take the form of another person, or open lockes with the flick of a wrist. Pretend its a place where people are not healed…
Lets just for a minute…pretend that it is a place where miracles do not happen…

Are you tired of ‘pretending’…or at least hearing me say it? Because I am tired of anyone pretending that it is “just an island”.

Be it science, spirit, or natural, there is something on…or should I say IN the island that separates it from being ‘just an island’. Things happen there that should not…but did anyone take the time to think that the properties of the island allow things to happen there that SHOULD? Maybe its not just about exploitation…maybe its about healing and fixing that which is broken.

If the type of energy existed in the real world that we have seen put on display on the island, then we have to ask ourselves a question…is the energy bad…or are the people who utilize the energy bad? Its being kept a secret, not because of its properties, but because of the way they would be used in the power hungry world.

Here is what I got from the conversation between the two on the beach, and what I feel they meant…I dont think I ever wrote anything saying my specific thoughts on their words…

I know how Kevin Croy, and everyone who contributes to Lostpedia and other sites feel towards people using their content towards uncovering mysteries of the universe such as Lost without saying…so if anyone is curious, I copied and pasted this from Lostpedia…I know it by heart, and although this paragraph caused me to type more than if I just typed the conversation itself…I felt it needed to be said…

(with some comments inserted by me….)

MAN IN BLACK: Morning.
JACOB: Mornin’.
MAN IN BLACK: Mind if I join you?
JACOB: [Shaking his head] Please. Want some fish?

(jacob the hunter/gather…) (People repeatedly tell/incinuate to John he is not supposed to be the hunter,)

MAN IN BLACK: Thank you. I just ate.

(Many believe by “ate” he meant ‘someone’ as the monster…when in fact we see “Flocke eat a mango on the hydra island…meaning he can and does eat real food)

[The Man in Black sits down not far away.]
JACOB: I take it you’re here ’cause of the ship.

(The man in black was seemingly not aware of the ship coming…)

MAN IN BLACK: I am. How did they find the Island?

(At the very least he did not bring them there…)

JACOB: You’ll have to ask ’em when they get here.

(“Some people have to be told what to do, others sit and stare at the ocean for a while”…
I do not think MIB will wait until “they get here”…)

MAN IN BLACK: I don’t have to ask. You brought them here. Still trying to prove me wrong, aren’t you?

(Then why did he ask in the first place? He knows Jacob did it. By saying the word “still”, means to me that Jacob has done this before…he is not infallible, otherwise this would have already been taken care of.)

JACOB: You are wrong.

(Jacob seems to know this even though he has failed at proving it before…)

MAN IN BLACK: Am I? They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.

(By “Am I?”, it implies that he knows Jacob has witnessed the atrocities that follow. They HAVE come. They HAVE fought. They HAVE destroyed. And they HAVE corrupted. And up to THIS point…it HAD always ended the same…The simple fact that they are sitting there talking about it about to happen again, means to me that the end has definitely NOT come yet…)

JACOB: It only ends once. Anything that happens before that is just progress.

(And whether the Losties are a new generation of people, another wave of gamepieces, or my personal favorite, just a bunch of random, but very connected people stuck in the timeloop or CIRCLE of a very stubborn, greedy, manipulated, power-hungry individual trying to “fix” something, as previously stated…the “end” has obviuosly not come or we would not be witnessing such things that could possibly be deemed as progress…because if the end had come…that plane would have never landed at all…but as a very pompous, arrogant young man just said recently on the site…if the plane didnt crash…they wouldnt be running around on the island…now would they?…so I assume it is progress we are witnessing…(The question being…which time line is progress?)

[The Man in Black stares at his compatriot.]
MAN IN BLACK: Do you have any idea how badly I wanna kill you?

(Probably not as much as Benjamin Linus did…)

JACOB: Yes.

(unless him being killed is ultimately what he is referring to as progress, or at least the start of it…)

MAN IN BLACK: One of these days, sooner or later… I’m going to find a loophole, my friend.

(Much later…Benjamin Loophole Linus…)

JACOB: Well, when you do, I’ll be right here.

(Of all the things that one could call MIB at this point, I know one thing you cannot call Jacob…a liar)

MAN IN BLACK: Always nice talking to you, Jacob.
JACOB: Nice talking to you, too.

(It wouldnt be a great ‘Lost’ conversation without a bit of sarcasm…)

This is what I get from everything…First off, by MIB using the word “still”, it really proves that Jacobs methods have not worked before. When he says “Am I”, to Jacobs “You are wrong”, its almost scoff at Jacobs answer to the question of trying to prove him wrong.

I think right here we can see MIB has no fear of learning that he is wrong. Whether he is talking about Man in general, or the losties specifically, he feels that either the human race or certain people are never going to change. Jacob obviously disagrees with his “friend”.

We see Charles Widmores return to the island…we knew there would be a day, but I did not expect a submarine as transportation. Widmores crew sets up pillars, like the fence designed to keep the monster out. He is well aware of the monsters presence and abilities. He allows Sawyer to go back and bring the monster to his doorstep, so he can kill him…lets all remind ourselves that this was Sawyers plan, not Widmores. Upon telling Flocke, he replies with an appreciation of Sawyers loyalty. Does anyone else here think that Charles is NOT that stupid?

With the arrival of Widmore, Jacobs touch seems to mean more and more. I think about another, more simple conversation…the conversation between Charles and Ben in his Loft…and Charles asked Ben if he came to kill him, Ben saying “we both know I cant do that”. Now Jack set up the dynamite for him and Richard to both be killed…and although Richard says he cannot kill himself, Jack was unsuccessful as well. Would he have been successful if he would have shot him? I dont believe so. I think that the same aspect plays into Ben not being able to kill Widmore, Jacob may have very well touched him as well.
We see him accept Sawyers offer of sending “Locke” over to be killed. Meaning at the moment, IF Charles was to choose a side between Jacob and MIB…it would not be MIBs…I get that they throw wrenches in on purpose…Im just saying at the moment…

Now lets go to where we are headed next week…Richard Alpert.
We have seen Richard throughout the history of the island…where the island goes time wise, Richard is/was…
He led Jack and Hurley to Black Rock, and knew where the dynamite was. Everything we have seen so far points to Richard being on Black Rock…Im going to run with that even though Im sure it will somehow be proven wrong next episode.

So from here we should see the ship. I imagine that it will be in the sea already, and am doubtful we will see much more than a minute or two of it before it leaves…maybe just a quick visit by Jacob to Richard, the capitan, Magnus Hanso, or even the scene with Ilana…who knows where she is really from…Richard having already telling of his being touched by Jacob most likely points to him.

So we may see a quick scene of Jacob touching Richard, telling him something along the lines of what he told the others. About him either being needed, how sorry he is, his blessing, or maybe finally a good old fashion scolding for something…but Jacob seems to be more of a kind and heartfelt person at least in his words…Im sure that whatever he says to Richard will make enough sense to the situation, maybe even what he is supposed to do after he arrives on the island.

My initial thoughts were that Richard was a slave…that MIBs words to him were meant in regards to him being a chained up in the ship…but I think it will be different than that. If If Im wrong than its as simple as MIB freeing Richard the same way he claims to be trying to free the people of the island…just seems easy…maybe he is a slave from an ancient egyptian time period, enslaved through time travel and magical properties.
Or maybe the chains were the metaphorical chains of Jacob, and he was no longer held after his death…

I think about Richards leadership role, and his actions as a leader…he carries the torch well.

My theory is that he was the first mate, possibly even disagreeing with the cargo being transported…and maybe the one who wrote the Journal that Widmore purchased (unless it was Charles himself). I think that as the ship was on the brink of heading to the island…the monster may have taken Jacobs advice of asking them himself a little early.

I can see the man in black appearing on the ship…asking that it leave or have everyone be killed, just as it did at the temple…maybe even taking the form of a fallen slave or crew member at some point. I have to wonder if the monster itself maybe tried to make a deal with Richard to release him from his “chains”, with Richard denying his offer… It would be interesting to learn that Widmore and Hawking were on the ship…they carry the right accent for where it left from, and Charles seems to care a lot about it…and judging by his return, possibly not even needing it to find the island…but Im stretching and digressing here…

I think that the captain is going to be stubborn, and the monster is going to run amok as it did in the temple…very possibly being the cause of it ending up in the middle of the island (and maybe even destroying the statue in the process)…Richard Alpert emerging from the wreckage as the only known survivor of the voyage.(unless Widmore and/or hawking were actually on the ship as well…ha…maybe they will be children and Alpert was older than they were physically then…)

With the arrival of Ricardus Alpert, the island has its first candidate as successor to Jacob…and our story officially begins. I question the possibility of Jacob touching Richard off island, but if he did it here it makes more sense. He could possibly save him from some near death injury, with acceptance of doing him a favor…Jacob seems big on favors. (I have to wonder if Richard Alpert is even his name…maybe he just had parents with a sense of humor like Lockes…)

Richard carries some very unique attributes other than just not aging…
Could Richard Alpert be the glue that holds the island timeline together…a constant in an inconstant world? If he is on Black Rock…then he has shown up in EVERY timeperiod that we have visited to date…there is not a single Lostie that would be able to claim that title!
If that doesnt mean constant…I dont know what does…

So Richards role could be extremely important to the end…What happens to Richard?
He was touched long before any of the Losties? Dogen comes from a near date back ground, and I imagine many of the others do too…
So what does that mean for Richard, being protected by Jacobs touch, and being on the island as it was sunk…?

That leaves ‘Poor Richard’, from the 1800s, the only person who we know was touched by Jacob BEFORE the island would sink right? If I am missing someone that we KNOW was touched by Jacob before 1977 speak up, it would put this to rest for me…I know we can assume maybe Widmore, Hawking, who knows who else could POSSIBLY have been touched…

*The last paragraph may be incorrect…and I need some assistance on it…*
We presume that the new time line we see off island this season is a cause of Jugghead being detonated and the island sinking…some of us think that is the cause…

So if the island sank in 1977…and everything is different because of it…then why is James Ford still chasing Anthony Cooper? Locke is paralyzed, but lives a different life. Jack seems very different in the other timeline. Kate had stopped running to help Claire, then began again only to be stopped by “the police”. Hurley is Lucky even though he is rich. Claire (we dont know if she was touched or not) is having some mother-son issues of her own, but you can see her fighting…in both timelines. Sayid also having issues that he tried to fight in both timelines…I feel between the infection and manipulation on island, and the kill or be killed situation he more than likely would have encounter again off island, he is losing his battle…time will tell on Sayid.

This leaves one man…one man who didnt want to look into the mirror anymore. One man that not only continues his quest of leaving the island, not worried about who is left behind. One man…that didnt want to know what ‘could have been’ by journeying ‘through the looking glass’.
Detective James Ford…aka…Sawyer.

James isnt worried about his past or future…only his present…and why? Because he continues to ignore what is truly responsible for his hateful life…the man in the (now broken)mirror…himself.
He accepted the responsibility for Juliets death on island…he told Kate it was his fault, and by the look of him at his pity party…he believed it was his fault too…

So then why still chase cooper? Why tell Miles that he wants to kill him? Why break the mirror, symbolizing Sawyer as being the stubborn individual that we all know he is?

Because James Ford was born in 1968.
Because When James Ford was 8, his mother was swindled out of the family’s life savings by Anthony Cooper…aka…James Ford. And then his father goes crazy, and kills his mother and himself.
Because in the very same year, 1976, James watched his parents get buried…just after being given a pen and being touched by a mysterious man we know as Jacob.

IF THE ISLAND SUNK IN 1977…THEN ALPERT AND SAWYER BOTH CARRY GREAT IMPORTANCE IN THE ISLANDS LINEAGE THROUGH TIME!!!

They would be the only 2 people we know of to be ‘touched’ before the island sank…
Congratulations ladies, Sawyer may join Richard Alpert as a non aging individual on Lost. They both have been touched by Jacob before the island sank (if it did sink in 1977).

With that Rant out of the way, Ill jump back over to Richard and the past…most likely confusing anyone who has continued reading thusfar…I do that sometimes…
;]

I think we will see the wheel of the ship be used as the key mechanism to the frozen donkey wheel. Richard and possibly future ‘others’ may be the ones who ultimately build the original chamber. I believe Jacobs touch may keep the monster from ever killing Richard, and his role of leader, the development of the others as a religious group, keeping jacob as their ‘savior’ was implemented to not only build an army for Jacob, but keep Richard from ever falling to the hands of another that MIB manipulates.

The Others are none other than a group of people who became shipwrecked on the island and had the choice of going the way of Rousseau or Claire…or going to the temple and joining the other others…They are on an island in which they cannot escape, with others who are Lost as well.
These people are manipulated into believing that they are going to be killed by the monster if they leave the temple…which they are. And are left with nothing more than the same credo that MIB/Flocke himself carries…”Kill or be killed…”, and I assume like MIB…they dont want to be killed.

(*BTW…That is my favorite line of the show this season. When MIB says “…And i dont want to be killed…”*)

I would like to point out, that sometimes we assume too much when theorizing. It took me a day or two of thinking about my favorite line and realize the true significance that it carries…MIB openly admitting that he can be killed…
Its not that I didnt think he could be…but admitting ones faults is one of the biggest hangups on the show…responsibility…we have seen people avoid it throughout Lost. “I dont want to be killed…”. Does that at all reach into the monsters past? Maybe not the monster, but the man (in black) himself.

He talks about his crazy mother. He talks about his hangups today. How problems he is trying to work through today could have been avoided had things been ‘different’. He doesnt want to die. He doesnt want to be on the island. He will do ANYTHING to avoid either.

Certain things make me think back to episodes that really dont seem to mean much at first thought. Deuce Ex Machina…or “god from the machine” is the title of an early episode of Lost…it revolves around Locke, off island explaining the story of him being conned by Cooper for his kidney…on island showing he and Boone finding Yemis plane.
The manner in which Locke finds this plane is what really gets me. He has a dream about Boone being dead, talking about his nanny, and actually sees the plane crash at one point…one thing I find funny is Locke sees the plane crash twice, once in this scene…and once in the year it actually crashed when time traveling.
Lockes legs ‘mysteriously’ start to give out…if the plane was going to fall, maybe Jacobs touch saved him from being in the plane?
Boone decided that he would climb up and try and get to the radio…which he does, unfortunately getting only Bernard on the other end…and we all know poor Boones fate from there.
But something happened before this all occurred…Locke told Boone something that as far as we know, he never told anyone else on the island…that he was in a wheel chair before they arrived, and could walk once they crashed…then Boone is taken away…

The title of this episode means “god from the machine” in Latin…the language of the enlightened…

I stated previously that I believed that MIB was a representation of god…and his disgust toward mankind was not in vain, but in the actions that he had seen of them previously…he did kick Adam and Eve out of paradise for eating the forbidden mango…err…apple…

I present again, the idea of MIB playing the role of ‘god’ to Jacobs role of the ‘not god/”Lucifer”…
(…Did no one else really get the connection of “Catch a Falling Star” and Lucifer, the Morning ‘Star’…the ‘Fallen’ Angel’…’LIGHT BEARER’?
With that being said, I dont necessarily mean they are god or lucifer(but who knows), just representations…After all, James just said…God aint got nothing to do with it, I assure you…

From the conversation between the two in the season 5 finale, I believe that MIB has seen what mankind will do…he knows the end before it even occurs, because if two such perfect people such as Adam and Eve couldnt resist temptation over an apple…than how could anyone else resist over “whatever they wanted most in the world”?

Earlier, MIB sets out to find someone who he knows will prove Jacob wrong, using Lockes form as disguise in the manipulation of Benjamin Loophole Linus.

Here is whats funny…who have we not seen or heard touched by Jacob that has killed, not out of self defense, but for their own purpose…for their own reasons to kill…Benjamin Linus…he had two killings…two murders…two STABBINGS that were beyond important. One being the obvious Jacob. The other being Keamy. His killing Keamy was ultimately what blew up the freighter, separated Jin and Sun, separated Claire and Aaron, left Claire alone with MIB, allowed the island to be moved through time…eventually causing the people who left from the frieghter to return(to 1977)…one of them shooting him, possibly turning him into the evil man he has been up until recently…sorry…but I really dont think helping a girl get into the school she chooses makes up for all of these things…but maybe NOT following MIBs instructions does…and I assume, like everyone else who doesnt do what MIB wishes…he will die by his smoke filled hands…
Bens off island action has caused something to happen to his on island self in my opinion.

The way this is working is the off island time line (real/original or not) is THE PAST…2004!!! Therefor, it is affecting the future selves of each individual as they do things differently off island…2007…

And I quote from Alice in Wonderland, and from the story Jack read Aaron of the same title…

“Dear, dear! How queer everything is to-day! And yesterday things went on just as usual. I wonder if I’ve been changed in the night? Let me think: was I the same when I got up this morning?”
The next line, “Ah, that’s the great puzzle!…”
And with slight paraphrasing…the end of the speech, “oh dear, how puzzling it all is! I’ll try if I know all the things I used to know. Let me see: four times five is twelve, and four times six is thirteen, and four times seven is —oh dear! I shall never get to twenty at that rate!…I must have changed…”

Through god, science…or both…they have been changed through the night…and I think the more the glare into the looking glass, the more change will occur with these characters. They will have something to fight for…something to live for, and something to die for…something MIB is not willing to do.

I am going to try and be an optimist in a dark world, somewhat contradicting a few previous theories of mine in the name of looking for an answer…so the “good” theory would be that Jacob has the ability to allow MIB to be right by the losties blowing up the island and allowing the correct time line to play out…which in my opinion is the one Jacob derailed by touching certain individuals and ultimately building the momentum for the crash of 815…but he did this for a reason…

By allowing the plane to crash, along with it ALREADY not crashing, it automatically created 2 time lines…one that we saw/see play out, and the other that played out without the island…and almost without Jacobs touch…

By these two timelines existing, MIB proved his argument by the Losties doing exactly as he said…they came (to the island in 1977), they fought (everyone, even themselves and still continue to do so), they destroyed (Dharmaville, New Otherton, Jugghead), and they corrupted (each other into following blindly behind Jacob or MIB and also in a power hungry frenzie to become the leader of the island or even to simply leave)…But it doesnt always end the same…

By going back in time, blowing up Jugghead, and in my opinion somewhat proving MIB right, they sunk the island in 1977…by going back in time and blowing up the island, it allowed the plane to not crash in the future…therefor…they never even went to the island to blow it up…

I know…but then how are they on the island?

Chicken or the egg…

Did the island sink because the plane crashed?
or…
Did the plane not crash, causing the island to not sink?

We have already said that the plane had to crash…to not crash…so the island had to sink…to not sink…get it?

The off island 2004 timeline is the past that is effecting the character and conscious of the 2007 on island Losties…

So which one is real/not real?
Although I have my opinion, this is a question that will never be answered in my opinion…its relevance will be unnecessary because I feel that although one timeline has contributed to the character from one angle, the new timeline will contribute from another angle as we have seen with Ben Linus. But I do feel that the majority of the characters if not all, will meet their ultimate fate on the island, and their stories will be concluded. As these character fall in one timeline, I say what I feel is a bit presumptuous at this point…they will fall in the other…and their ‘fall’, will be very meaningful in terms of its representation along with the literal scene that we will witness.

With certain connection being made by way of the looking glass, I feel that people are going to start changing from what we knew them as…to what they are truly capable of if they put their petty problems behind them. Its my belief that these two 2004 halves of themselves will meet in 2007 as one being again, with the understanding of exactly what just happened, and the ability to now fight for what does matter…for what is the real cause of this even being possible…
The island…its a place where people go to get fixed…a place where the dead can communicate…a place where miracles do indeed happen…

Blowing up Jugghead and him dying was the progress that Jacob needed to allow the real timeline to play out in order to affect the Losties on island…changing them from the fighting, destroying, and corrupting people that MIB knows so well…This will allow the losties to gain the proper perspective when making their final decisions of what side to take in the war…but if they truly changed, and learned anything from all of this…maybe there wouldnt need to be a war at all…

And again I declare, that like balancing a scale, we will see science lead the way for faith, and change, to somehow prove consistency…

The agon between the representation of the two sides has provided us with information to constantly dig deeper into its true meaning as the story progresses…Peripeteia changes our minds at every corner…and the falling star…well all Im going to say about the falling star is ,if you catch it…put it in your pocket before it touches you giving you the curse of eternal life…or turns into a giant pillar of smoke and kills you…

Thank you very much for your time…

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Written by

A.E.S.

Abbot Enheduanna Schwarzschild

65 thoughts on “Peripeteia, the Agon…and a Falling Star…

  1. wow that is long! some thought i had as i was reading it:
    1.widmore and hawking couldnt have been on the black rock with richard as they do age, if they were on the ship from the 1800s and we saw them in the 50s as 20something year olds but when we see them in 2004-07 they are in their 60s-70s which would be legit aging. also since we see widmore, hawking, and a bunch of others when they time travel back to the 50s and have to barry jughead i am assuming that some of those people were touched by jacob and therefore on the island before 77 and before the incident.
    2. i like where you are going with the sawyer thing, however we dont know whether or not kate, who is also around sawyer’s age and was touched when she was pretty young was touched prior 1977 or after. also wasnt ben visited by someone when he was super young too? what year would that have been in?
    3. i love love love that you see mib as god and jacob as the devil. as i said in one of my posts i done believe jacob is the good guy, i dont know why most people just assume he is good just becasue he wears white. not saying that either mib or jacob are wholly good or evil, or that they are god and the devil.
    4. i also agree with the idea that they character of a person on the island is influenced by their actions in both of the off island timelines, it’s almost like they are two sides of a person, and obviously we have seen this with ben and we can also see it with all the alice in wonderland allusions.
    5. i am a little confused with your catch a falling star connection, can you please explain that more, the song is obviously important it keeps coming back.

  2. Thanks for the comments OWL…

    1. I definitely hear you on Widmore and Hawking. Its something I have been thinking about for a long time, and just kind of wanted to throw it out there…I really believe that Richard was the only known survivor, and I think we will learn that soon.

    2.Kate was born in 1977 as per Lostpedia…making her out of the range. Hurley was older, Sayid was older, Jack was older, Dogen and the Kwons were older…but Sawyer was 8 in 1976, a year prior to “the incident…and I find it very odd that he is the first to break the mirror that carries so much symbolism this season…
    Ben I guess would haave been in 77, but before the incident…possibly put into that category…thing is…I dont know for sure that jacob touched him, only that he was taken to the temple.
    The water is told to be a cause of memory loss of sorts, not jacob. He is actually not very visable on island other than his death and beyond. He stays in the statue, right were he said he would be.
    If I had to make a choice, I would say Ben was not touched by Jacob…I do think Ethan was though, and am curious to see when that occurs.

    3/5…combined… You like the idea of MIB and Jacob representing the devil/Lucifer, “the fallen angel” “The morning Star” “The light bearer”…Nemesis is the man in black…Jacob is the man in white.

    One side light, the other dark. Jacob definitely represents the “light side”…and If you think of the devil/god representations, The light side (Jacob/Man In White) is not the side of god (Man In Black).
    My perception of things is swayed by minor and seemingly insignificant things sometimes…

    4. The two timelines interacting is necessary, and through the looking glass is such a wonderful way to represent the changing of a person.
    Those two halves of people com from timelines that are parallel to each other in my view.
    The 2004 timeline on island that we have seen, and the 2004 off island timeline that we are seeing now are mirroring each other…we just see it happen 5 years apart from a narrative perspective.
    There are things that are obviously different, and things that just have not changed all that much…Like Sawyer.

    Something is going to go down, and he is going to be a very bad person. Im not sure why or how, but I cant help but picture Jack standing in his way this time, as opposed to 1977.
    I think there is going to be a final shake up on ‘sides’ by certain characters.
    I know everyone keeps thinking that there are going to be other influences…but as for the war itself, the idea of TWO sides was implemented way back When Locke was giving Walt the speach about “light” and “dark”…It would slightly cheapen it to add a third party, in my opinion…but they usually find a way to add a certain flavor and twist to not so great ideas…making them great…Im honestly just excited to see how it all plays out…

    I assure you owl…anything youre not sure about that I said…Im not sure about.

    Im making my predictions, which change week by week, even if they arent proved wrong sometimes…just minor revelations that are unveiled can change my whole line of thought…THAT is why I love this show…Constantly keeps me on my toes…

  3. I think the New Kids on the Block lunch box was the first clue that Kate was touched after 1977…..lol

    Dont think Widmore and Hawking were on the Black Rock. It just wouldnt make much sense with how they aged. Alpert was however and im shocked that people still arent convinced of that. What other hints do you need?

    Just because one character is all evil, doesnt mean the other is all good. Flocke is the deciver, the tempter, the silver tongued snake……but Jacob has done his share of manipulation too. And it wasnt all just pushing people in a certain direction.

  4. Great thoughts again AES. As usual I will throw out a bunch of questions to you…

    For a second I thought that you’re saying Sawyer killed his own parents.. I probably misunderstood that…
    But what exactly is the point you make about Sawyer breaking the mirror and the sideways timeline? That he refuses to leave his past behind? What exactly does it have to do with the sideways timeline?

    Regarding Locke’s dream of Boone and the plane: You said before that maybe Locke is the one who is closest to being aware of his other self. The dream of the plane crashing could very well also be some sort of spillover from the other timeline…oh wait…the plane crashed in the same timeline as Locke’s dream, or did it?!

    Furthermore, I love your predictions or interpretations if you will of seemingly minor lines and revelations of characters. Nice stuff!

  5. This theory is one of the most comprehensive ones I’ve read on the site! It was definitely a novel of sorts hehe.

    Great job working through everything, despite of course, the natural uncertainties that arise when talking about Lost… just wanted to mention:

    1. Really enjoy your ability to remove yourself from the thought that dark = evil and light = good. Great pointing out Lucifer reference. I posted on correlations to the story of Paradise Lost (Milton’s adaptation of the story of the fallen angel and original sin), and this can also connect to ideas that whoever is the “fallen angel” in this situation was likely the original right-hand man or original candidate…

    2. If your time analyses adds up with Sawyer being touched prior to 1977/the incident and that being a pivotal piece of info… that would be so nuts. 🙂 Not wholly into this idea though… mostly because I think it’s such a specific reasoning, and a detail that isn’t as big as a twist for audiences (I could be eating my words soon though).

    3. Love this correlation between the “falling star” song. Definitely a consistent symbol of this show, not something to glaze over… I might be reading too far into it, but when you mentioned the lyrics “save it for a rainy day” it immediately triggered memories of a bald-headed Locke inviting the rain to fall on his head in moments of complete trust in the island. 😉

    4. “They all came to the island to get fixed” Indeed. The biggest drive that pointed audiences to the idea that the island was a sort of purgatory or limbo or in-between place til one moves on to the next life from Season 1 was the fact that characters didn’t seem to die until they had reconciled the major debacle of their lives– ceased to be Lost, that is? Once this happened they “died off” or moved on. Although this is more or less a moot point now…

    5. “We have already said that the plane had to crash…to not crash…so the island had to sink…to not sink…get it?” YES. Had to re-read it a bit, but this definitely makes sense in for causal purposes…

    “The off island 2004 timeline is the past that is effecting the character and conscious of the 2007 on island Losties…” I too, believe this, sort of bleeding through. That 1 timeline is not simply a reflection of the other timeline, but somehow they are affecting each other. Kind of how someone suggested that the Whispers could be their own trails left behind as they “flashed” through time… hope that comparison made sense…

    6. For your question (that you responded to yourself) about which is real/not real– I think in relation to the Many Worlds theory (I believe you’ve written about this before) I don’t necessarily think one is more real than the others… though ultimately they will merge in someway. Not necessarily where the timelines meet, but that the actions/consciousness/motivations that guide a person to one choice and to embark on one timeline can/will affect the alternate timeline of this same person, and thus they have multiple similarities to each other…

    7. I’m rooting for you to be on the money that their fates will ultimately be decided on the island. I can’t say I thought it would be any other way, though– I can’t imagine these characters wrapping up their destinies anywhere but the island, which has been such a central character itself.

    All in all, even if your theories fall flat completely (there, there, they won’t!) you opened up a Pandora’s box of things to consider. Nicely done.

  6. Hi AES

    I didn’t read through it all, I got to the part about Richard being the only one touched before 1977 and I had to comment on this.

    Sawyer was touched in 1976. In “The Incident” he told Jack that when he was 8, his dad killed his mum then himself, and said that it happened a year ago. He mentioned that he could’ve hopped on a sub and stopped the whole thing, but he didn’t because what’s done is done.

    This is what annoys me about the latest episode. If we’re led to believe that the bomb was responsible for this “alt universe”, then anything that happened up until the bomb went off would’ve happened in both timelines.

    But, in the latest episode the newspaper clipping said Sawyer was 9 when this happened.

    When Saywer is looking up “Anthony Cooper” he asks them if they were in such-a-place in 1976 which would suggest that it still happened in 1976.

    Sawyer was touched by Jacob at his parents funeral which would’ve happened in 1976 in both timelines, so Sawyer really should’ve had the same life in this “alt universe”. He was still influenced by Jacob and it has really annoyed me that we’re supposed to believe that this universe is a result of not having Jacobs influence.

    I guess it could turn out that there was something else responsible for the cause of this alt universe but then that would make the whole point of the season 5 finale a bit redundant.

    Sorry if anyone else has mentioned this in the comments. I’ll go and read the rest of the post now. Just wanted to get this off my chest 🙂

  7. Ok, Apologies A.E.S – I Just carried on from where I left and read the part about Sawyer being touched by Jacob in both timelines.

    Guess I should finish reading before commenting, eh? 🙂

  8. The Lucifer reference puts me in mind of Neil Gaimans character in the Sandman series that was further elaborated upon by Mike Carey. Lucifer quit his job, running hell, and wanted to go home. Eventually he forced God’s hand.
    Gaiman based his Lucifer character on Milton’s Paradise Lost. But if this is where the writers got their ideas for MIB and Jacob the roles that you assigned would be reversed. Jacob is god and Flocke is Lucifer.

  9. greatforsaken, lol…good point on the lunchbox…didntr even think about it from that angle…
    Im definitely not sure about Widmore and Hawking at all. I just wanted to throw it out there. I figure, with less than 10 episodes left, they might kill a few birds with one stone…
    Like the idea behind Widmore and Hawking, Im about 99.9% sure Alpert WAS on Black Rock, I have just become familiar with the way the producers direct us into believing one thing…then pulling the rug out from under us…so I am just weighing my options, and trying to keep open-minded in case they pull a fast one on us with Ricky.

    As for good and evil…I would truly love to hear what else you have got on Jacob. Im always up for find out more info about the two mystery men.

    Thanks for the comments, nice thoughts on Widmore and Hawking…I concur…just staying on my toes…

  10. Hi stone…Thanks for the comments, and Im always open to your questions!

    Definitely not saying Sawyer killed his parents…well “Sawyer/Cooper” did…but James Ford didnt…

    What I mean with the importance of Sawyer breaking the mirror, is that it is something that nobody else did. Everyone else seems to get something from the sideways time line…so far…(I note Sayid as a possible exception above, but I think that plays into the manipulation of MIb, the infection, and most importantly, his death and ressurection under the influence of MIB and the infection)

    I was digging trying to find out what could make James so different off island, and stumbled across the fact that he is the only one known right now that has been touched by Jacob before the island sank…continuity error…possibly…I would like to think of it as being more important though…
    Even though Richard has said that Jacob did this to him, we never see when the “touch” occurs…makes me wonder if it somehow happened in the islands future, which with time travel involved, it would be Richards past…damn my digression…
    What it means with his sideways timeline is something In not sure of…but Im sure it will have something to do with Sawyer not picking sides.
    This whole thing could possibly lead to a conscious crumble ala Desmond Hume, with Sawyer searching for his constant…maybe it will be as simple to find as flipping his numbers on the wheel around…a hard question to answer fully at this point, but I understand the curiosity…

    Im steering a little clear of Lockes dream, and how close he is to coming “full circle”…I have a few ideas, but wasy too long for an already too long post…I felt the name of the episode and its meaning was very important…and it bothers the hell out of me that as soon as Locke tells someone he was paralyzed pre-island…they die…I found it even more interesting that Locke claimed “it was a sacrifice that the isalnd demanded”…god from the “machine” indeed. The island giveth…and the island taketh away…

    As always stone, thanks for the comment, questions, and kind words…never be shy of asking, Ill answer as honestly as I can, even if it leads to me saying Im not sure, which is the case for where Sawyers breaking of the mirror is headed…

  11. Adayafar…thanks for the comments and kind words…it was a bit of a grueling theory, both to write and to read, and I greatly appreciate anyone that took the time to get to my slow moving points…

    1)I love when people take “Paradise Lost” and use it as an example for discussion here. there are many aspects that seem very close to the direction of the story.
    I had to go against the light being “good”…Society today doesnt fall into the gimmick of death being a new beginning…we are too busy trying to avoid it to do so.

    If you go back to the roots of religion in their “glory days” of meaning something more than saying you go to church/temple/worship…it was really a symbol of doing something good in life, and being rewarded or punished in death…I believe that repeating mistakes are used as punishment in Lost, and realizing, admitting, and correcting mistakes come with a thought of “reward”…

    2)On your reason for not fully buying into the age “time/date” as motive for Sawyers off island mirror smashing…lol, I understand…
    Its something that was hard for me to believe that I missed…making me think that maybe they are going deep into the bag ‘o tricks for trying to one up the theorist who search the nooks and crannies…well…if they were, I got em, if not…continuity error, lol…

    3) THE RAIN!!! I knew I should have said it, lol…I get caught up in “Locke” and sometimes say (even crazier) things that make people think I am favoring him over theorizing him…lol…good catch, knew I should have said it…

    4)All Im going to say is “purgatory”…I assure you, I have an idea that is going to hopefull push some of these thoughts on the two timelines and “purgatory” into a different light…it was just a bit much to add onto this mess…its coming…

    5)So happy to know at leats one person got that, lol…

    6)Oh boy…I have backed myself into a bit of a corner with this…Early on I wrote theories regarding alternate timeline possibilities, even before the alternate timeline scenes arose on Lost…many did actually. Some based on string theory, others on more sci-fi related topics…but with all this going on, I lean towards the thought that BOTH timelines were manipulated in some way…and neither being the exact way it SHOULD have played out…Im going to try and prevent debate with others and stay away from this one…but I do agree with just about everything you say in your #6…great perspective on the situation…

    7)I defend Lost to the death…and honestly, even if they went the “alien” route, I would be less offended than to see this whole thing end anywhere but the island…the beach specifically…

    Ill be honest with your last words…I really hope to close the box, opening it mroe is my biggest fear at this point (other than aliens), but I feel that although most, if not all I say will fall flat, I at least hinted in the right direction…or at the very least oen up new thinking on the site…

    Great comments, questions, and answers afar…I cant express how happy I was to see a big response tackling a variety of different topics from my theory…
    Much of understanding my thoughts purposely come from my comments after…I miss debate and discussion here, and hope that others do too…

    Again, great comments, thanks for your kind words, and I hoped I answered all you questioned about…

  12. Oh, Im on the ball emzi, lol…

    I realized that, but wanted to slightly separate the thoughts in case there is some sort of continuity error at play…

    As you can see, I dont fully believe in the time line as real yet…but am growing more to the idea since we last spoke on it…

    Ill be honest, I havent seen anything here by anyone else saying that about the year Sawyer was touched…GREAT catch on it Emzi…keeping me on my toes, lol…

    Do you have any other tidbits of info like that in your bag of tricks emz?

  13. If this is a branched time line, and if Jughead caused the island to sink, then there is not way the branched time line began at the time of the Jughead detonation.
    Otherwise, Ben and his father would have sunk with the island.

  14. Good thoughts Roland…like afar, you made the Milton connection too, something I wasnt entirely going for, but pretty obvious none the less…

    I really like the candyman example you give…never thought of it. I only saw the forst two, then bailed on the franchise…might have to check them out now…

    Im still a little sketchy on the “lucifer’ thought…but cant help but notice the “fallen star” and “falling star” symbolism and connection…

  15. Pen…Im not saying that if it happened like that that they wouldnt have sunk with the island…

    But why couldnt they have arrived when they did…then left in or before the incident and 1977…?
    That is what it seems to me that happened.

    Ben arrives in 1973…and leaves in or before 1977 and the incident…
    There is nothing saying when Ben and Roger left, just that they did…I have to assume the obvious on this one that it went in the direction I am thinking…

    I am although, more than open to different/other ideas…If Im incorrect,I would rather know now than continue pushing something that has faults…
    Good thoughts…thanks for your comment!

  16. obsessedWlost…you wrote a comment somewhere saying a thought on MIB and Jacob both being Aaron as a result of 2 different timelines…something to that nature…

    Im not sure where you said it, but if you could repeat it here, I would really like to discuss that as well…
    I’d like to see it run as its own theory actually, and have some thoughts for you regarding where I was headed with some of these thoughts…

  17. Holy cow you didnt lie about it being long haha!

    Im gonna write this in order that i read to avoid confusion 🙂

    1.Iv always thought that if Jack lit the dynamite and walked away then Richard would have been blown into smitherines.. but because he stayed, Richard couldnt be killed without Jack killing himself. So im almost sure they can kill eachother, just not themselves.. (of course this is all just a matter of opinion)

    2. i never thought of Ilana being from the BR.. I really like that idea.. We know absolutely nothing about her except she was apparently in some huge accident but bares no scars from it

    3. WOW! Amazing Sawyer point!
    Everybody has had major changes in their ATL life but the only change in sawyers is that he chose to be the cop instead of the con man.. He made the choice, it wasnt made for him.. as opposed to Hurley who is now lucky.. You cant choose to have good luck.. However im not seeing much of a change in Kates life either.. So i think theres something more to that.

    Excellent post (even though my eyes are a bit blurry now!) 😀

  18. AES, that is indeed a pretty good point you make about Sawyer then. I assumed you didn’t say he killed his own parents btw, but it read a bit like you were. 😉

    I’m almost certain that Sawyer is going to play a big part in the ending of Lost.

    Very eager to read your ideas on Purgatory as you commented btw!

  19. 45…

    1)I know, I know…Im trying to somehow relate Ben not being able to kill Widmore, and MIB not being able to Kill Jacob with what happened inside of the ship with Jack and Richard. Im not too sure about it myself at this point.

    2)Ilanas missing story drives me nuts. Her having jacob as a father figure simply means her story possesses Jacobs backstory. I think the idea of Black Rock is a different take, although I always wanted to nail her with some relation to the ever popular Egyptian mystery on Lost.
    Black Rock would be fun too though wouldnt it…

    3)The thought of Sawyers date came when I was making sure that nobody else was touched before the incident happened. I almost just skipped over it, but luckily didnt just assume this time…lol, Emzi would have nailed me anyway…

    I think Kate going back for Claire was a big step. She looked into the mirror, looked into the bag…and decided to make a different choice than I feel she would have before…that is the main reason why I am basing my ideas from the change.

    There is definitely more story to tell though…and Im very interested to see how it goes…

    Thanks for the comments 45, sorry about your eyes, Ill try and shorten the next one for you, lol…

  20. Stone…I figured that about what you thought I was saying…just wanted to clarify in case anyone else took it that way too…

    Sawyers role is going to be something…makes you think back to the little boy with bloody hands…”You cant kill him”…
    Who was he, and who is “him”?

  21. Its interesting you mention Richard coming on the black rock will be correct but also proved wrong.

    Can I develop this??

    Sawyer, Jack etc were seen in 1977. But to a logical human being looking at the Lost series without having seen any previous episodes, they would believe they lived in 1977 (like Bens father, Miles father etc)

    But this is not true. as we all clealry observed, some of the Losties were displaced in time, time travelled from the future into a past (1977 with the Dharma folk) where in their real lives/ first episode time line they were either small kids or not even born!!!!!

    Now in relation to Richard, yes I do believe he came on the black rock. But does that mean he is from the past and lived forever because he was blessed in the fountain etc? Possibly but not necessarily.

    But why keep such an important, pivotal, influential character so under wraps until the last season??

    Why?? Well, only for dramatic purposes and impact in story telling, narrative.

    Just like the Losties, is it not possible Richard travelled from the future to 1800/whenever. Somehow got on board the ship as part of its crew which was then captured by pirates. Later the ship arrived to the island on board that vessel the Black Rock.

    Rather than actually being from that time period, he is from the future.

    I think this will be the twist. Richard did come on the black rock, but in fact he is from the future, just like Jacob.

    or it is simpler, he was merely a person on that ship!

  22. aes – so glad you like my thoughts! i just posted it as a separate theory, although god knows when it will be up, since im still kind of a newby it takes a while for my theories to be posted. so just in case it takes forever, it’s under the “the psychic is not a fraud”

  23. Hehe, I know who the young blond bloody-handed boy is. Can’t resist to check some minor spoilers every now and then lol.

    That aside, I dig what you say about Locke’s dream. I’m on a rewatch at the moment and everytime I watch the important Locke scenes…you just can’t believe the writers didn’t know anything at that time. Like you’ve said before, they’re messing with us, they’ve known a lot all along.

  24. Nacho…I cant tell you how much I like that idea. I had some thoughts like that in regards to jacob early on in the series…still might carry some weight…but never really applied it to Richard in a theory.

    I especially like that he is just not ‘from the future’, but Black Rock too…

    Very nice thoughts…

  25. Stone please dont say or incinuate…Ive fought for years to avoid spoilers, sometimes futilely, but have done well this season…glad it makes you giggle though…

    Sorry, that last line above in comment 25 was meant for you…

    …and, oh yeah…they have had a plan all along…

    Can you imagine how much fun it has probably been for them to sit back and read some of our theories…lol…there has got to be times when they wonder where the hell we get some of our ideas, lol…

  26. No worries AES, I won’t incinuate anything ofcourse. Just had to throw it out after you said that haha.

    And oh yes, I bet they have been and will still be laughing their asses off reading all the stuff people wrote. When you think of that, it’s been an unbelievably amazing show..

  27. Double wide…thats what Ilana said…and yes, one would take that as an older name…I see what you are saying…

    Stone, I agree…I just posted a comment on a theory by Kimberly regarding how a theory that she wrote a year ago regarding some comments that seem to be pointing in the right direction…

    The theory is called “The Unholy Trinity”. The theory itself still holds weight…and the comments that follow, especially towards the end make some sense in regards to water and reflections…its from April of 2009…very interesting to read now, and apply some of the ideas to the current situation.

  28. Nice, I’ve read that one but that’s a pretty long time ago. Will look it up in a mo..always nice to reread theories which seem to be pretty accurate..

  29. Hehe…my mistake Roland, that would be why I didn’t make the connection…
    My eye blushes…

    I’m actually not familiar with either “candy” or “sand” man…is it dream or conscious related at all?

  30. Very interesting Roland…I did a wiki search and learned that he was trying to make a change to the past/himself…

    Im going to have to hit the book store…good stuff…

  31. A.E.S., I”m not sure exactly what you were saying in response to my comment. But the definition of a branched time line is that everything before the branch can only happen ONE way. Therefore, Ben and Roger could not have left earlier if the branch occurs in 1977. Therefore the branch occurs sooner.
    You also get the feeling that in the alt universe little Ben was never shot. Therefore the branching point has to be before 1977. But since Ben did go to the island in the alt, it has to have branched sometime between 1972 and 1977.

  32. I’ve thought of Richard being the first mate of the Black Rock before. It would sort of be the same position he holds on the Island. But I’m still hoping he is older than that. I think maybe he was sent by Jacob to guide the BR to the island and Hanso threw Richard into the brig. Maybe to try some sort of blackmail. Hanso seems like a prototype for Whidmore. I remember Dabs post quite awhile ago talking about Richard possibly being Phoenician as they were a seafaring people.
    Good for Sawyer for not choosing a side. Screw both Jacob and MIB. Fat lot of good it will do him in the long run, though. Sawyer chose but I still think fate has got something in store for him. Maybe by seeing him punch the mirror we just saw him remove himself from being a candidate. He kinda reminds me of Jack in the first season when all he could think of doing was find some way off the island.

  33. Pen…I guess my thoughts come from another thought of mine, that the island is going to time travel again, and things may be changed much further in the past…

    With all the jumping that the island has done, and possibly will do, there could have already been a criss cross in time lines that screwed things up.
    I think we have seen several instances of characters being ‘not themselves’, and I think that the root of it all will go back further than the scene of Black Rock.

    I know this doesnt all make sense. trying to leave my options open to new developments, while fitting in the ones we have already seen around them.

    If the island is sunk in 1977 during the incident…we still have the effect that the Losties had in that time period not existing…they didnt go back to the 70s, therefor Ben never got shot. That would occur before 1977.

    It really goes back to change even before that…John Locke appears in 1954 to Richard Alpert, Dan to his mother…no plane crash in 2004 = no losties in the 50s, 70s, or whereever else…

    There are still effects that are going to change due to this, that will lead back much further than the incident…Ben being a close example timewise…

    The island sinking doesnt just effect what happened after…but what happened on the island before it as well…anyplace/time where the Losties time traveled to would have to feel the effects of their absence.

  34. Roland, I like your idea of Hanso being a prototype for Widmore. of all the things we heard about him, if he doesnt play himself in the show, I think you are right to call on Charles to fill the shoes…

    Sawyer does have that jack like quality…and Jack seems to be playing Johns “man of faith” card well too…

  35. oh god this thread took forever to read (deep breath)!!! i am so happy to see a real discussion thou instead of people just bashing on each other for repeated ideas. some random thoughts i had while reading everyone’s comments:

    1. re: ilana coming on the black rock. in the episode where jacob visits ilana off island they are speaking russian (i remember this cuz i was very excited to actually understand them). russians werent very big on the whole slave trade thing, and it’s been said that the black rock was from portugal (not sure if that’s from the show or theories ive read), so i doubt she was on the ship.

    2. adayafar – loving the paradise lost connection

    3. nacho – loving the idea of richard being from the future and having traveled back in time to the black rock

    4. i really hope sawyer ends up playing a major role in the end (and not only because i think he is smokin hot [takes a moment to mentally replay the cage sex scene]). jack has been such a whiny bitch, it seems like sawyer has taken more of an initiative over the past 6 seasons.

    4.5 not sure if this is at all relevant 15=ford, 51=austin. mirror effect anyone? yes? no? maybe? since we know kate isn’t a candidate, could her purpose be to be a looking glass of sorts for sawyer, she has been very important in influencing his decisions. she has the ability to make him step back, think about what he’s doing, then act

    5. penny – i like the time branch idea, i think you guys should all read monini’s theory about dharma and how they were trying to manipulate something or another in the universe, and kept Fing up, so they had to go back (hence the station with the time machine) and try again, thereby creating an infinite timeloop

    6. AES stop making me read long theories!! i have officially given up having a real life for reading Lost theories all day! i kid i kid…. now off to read the Unholy Trinity

    7. yayy for another super long comment! i am sure i am forgetting things i had to say while reading, maybe i’ll go back and reread everything and add on more questions…. ahhhhh i need help! lostaholics anonymous!!

  36. i knew i was forgetting something!

    Roland – i dont remember who Hanso is, is he from the off season thingys? i havent seen any of those.

    do you guys think that the off season games are at all relevant to the show? cuz they writers said they are not, and they are written by other people. but the writers lie! so i donno what do you think…

  37. obsessed, The Unholy Trinity isn’t that long, but it is nice to read stuff from a year ago that could have also been written today! Btw I do hope that Jack will be (one of) the ultimate hero(es) in the end. His entire change of attitude over the past seasons is just too important to not let him be the ultimate leader/hero imo.

  38. AES: You have created a monstrous thread! I guess every timeline-related theory has this kind of reaction on the forums… hehe. I basically just read your reply to me and the last few comments though.

    obsessed: Interesting pointing out the Russian thing… they keep a lot of Ilana’s background a mystery because she is so closely tied to Jacob, so I kind of presumed that someone like her probably knows a lot of languages. (Crazy speculation on my part, I know.) In any case, though I enjoy the whole Ilana came from a time long before like Richard, you make a good point. As for that Hanso stuff– yes, I think that’s all off-show stuff.

    I personally don’t think that off season games/etc. can play a big enough role in the actual show. It would greatly confuse the average viewer… even big Lost fans stay away from off-show things I would think. It just causes way more craziness! The off-show plots fit in well with the show, but I highly doubt they’d actually start introducing these concepts to a new audience… but hey, you never know.

    stone: I can see what you mean about Jack and def agree. He can get pretty whiny– but I do recognize that the writers made him one of the most drastically dynamic characters in the cast. The writers write dynamic male characters in general, I kind of get annoyed at their underdeveloped female characters. They do a somewhat good job with Sun, but even there it’s a little haphazard.

  39. Magnus Hanso was the owner of the Black Rock. He has been mentioned in the show a little bit. Charles Whidmore bought a journal that came from the Black Rock off of the Hanso estate which may have given him the ability to finally get back to the island. The Hanso Foundation funded the Dharma Initiative. Lostpedia has some good articles about all of this if you feel like reading up on it. Some of the stuff is considered canon by the shows producers so it is relevant.

  40. ADay, aye I agree on the underdeveloped female characters. It seems like they’ve become less and less important, or developed over the run of the show. I don’t really find that a bad thing however.

    On the offshow stuff. I think the Hanso foundation etc. is just background info to feed theorists en debaters 😉

  41. You said Locke only told someone he was paralyzed before the plane crash then he died, who is that you are refering to? And didn’t he tell Walt that way back when they first crashed? Wow I can’t believe I read all of that and all the coments O_o

  42. dpoyc… Locke told Boone that he was, before Yemis plane ‘fell’ from the cliffside, and Boone was killed…and thank you for reading all of the theroies and comments…its a bit to go through, and I appreciate you doing so…

    If you are not familiar with Hanso, hop on Lostpedia and catch up…he is important to the show eveen if he never becomes part of it (which I doubt will occur)

    I really think we will learn see or hear more about him soon…hmmm…we never did find out who the economist off island…we assumed it to be Widmore, but nothing solid…

  43. Roland: I didn’t remember that Magnus had been mentioned on the show before. Must’ve been very fleeting. But yeah, doesn’t seem like a good idea to introduce that entire back story, though I guess if they referenced him before they could still use him (and maybe the DeGroots… totally only read about that on Lostpedia though).

    stone: Aw, I think it sucks! Sun is probably the best developed of all of them, and Juliet even, and it’s a shame they haven’t lived up to their entire potential. Kate wouldn’t be as hated if she was more well-rounded. It’s a relief that they didn’t have a female lead as they originally wanted– though it would be an interesting dynamic, I think if written well. I suppose that’s neither here nor there… 🙂

    AES: I read about Hanso on Lostpedia… gahh. Def adding more crazy theories to my head.

    DPOYC: Your username is nuts. Love Hurley’s fam.

  44. Pen, we dont have to assume, Roger says something to Ben about the island and the DI in the alt timeline…

    Afar…I know…its driving me crazy too!!!

    Roland…thats a fun thought, I really like the idea…but I always placed “magnus” into the category of “great” as Jack has been called…
    something to think about for sure…

  45. The DeGroots, also, means great. I was going to write something about this one time but as they were a first name and last name I couldn’t bring it together. Now you’ve made me wonder who Ray’s father was.

  46. Look at it like this…

    Jack, Magnus, Degroot,..all great men…How much do you want to bet that the man responsible for the sheep/slaves being brought to the island…is a shepherd/Shepard…

  47. ADay, it would indeed be much more dynamic and interesting if some women had more important roles.

    I think the main problem with them is that their attitudes have been very exaggerated. Claire, the whiney responsibility-timebomb…Kate the…well she’s just boring…Sun the faithful wife..even Ana-Lucia, don’t have to tell you that lol. It’s all been exaggerated a bit too much. The new Claire is really a refreshment imo. Kate and Sun though…they seem to (still) be pretty pointless. I liked Juliet also, mainly because her attitude/character wasn’t exaggerated.

    Oh well, we’ll see what role they are going to play the coming weeks and months.

    We’ve gotten pretty offtopic btw lol.

  48. Trying to connect a few off topic dts myself…
    Is there anyone else on the show who has been specifically said to be “great”…or has a name in anyway meaning the same?

  49. AES, one of the things which stands out to me in the ‘beach conversation’ between Jacob and Nemesis is, when Nemesis says to Jacob; “you are wrong”.

    This statement is definitive and very matter of fact, indicating that as far as Nemesis is concerned, Jacob’s statements are fact and not open to interpretation.

    Jacob’s words appear to be of a taunting nature, showing little regard for human life. He also appears to have little concern about what happens in between and is only focused on an ‘end’ result.

    Looking at each of their statements, it appears that Jacob views progress in more ‘scientific’ terms (the emphasis being placed upon progress as being more important than human life), whereas Nemesis is aware of the tremendous waste and loss that these experiments create on a human level.

    Again….two opposing views.

    Re: your comment #30 The Unholy Trinity…I re-read the theory (which is one that I recall) and our comments, many of which still apply. The comments regarding ‘reflection and mirroring’ stood out to me in particular.

  50. Hello Dabsi… I really like the way you refer to them as experiments.

    If one is on the opposite end as Jacob, it makes good sense to call them that, especially considering the thought of the same events replaying…(I picture a rat running a maze…or bunnies put through tests…if we could only figure out a way to differentiate between bunnies…;])

    Ive always said that I believed Jacob was at least “better” than MIB, from a moral standpoint at least.
    It will be interesting to see if MIB was really just a Lostie like the rest of them…falling into Jacobs game.

    Im very interested to see or hear what happened with him and his mother…I question her involvement in his condition, or if he is going through what many have on Lost…perceiving something very differently than how it actually occurred.

    When they showed the mirror in the first episode I thought about it…then it happened again, and I started trying to remember…by the third time, I was already searching through theories…I thought it was one of ours, then remembered how water became involved…remembered the refelection in the link…and was happy to see that we talked about the importance of water and mirrors quite some time ago…

    Thanks so much for the comment…
    I definitely have to give more thought to Jacobs identity and his goals…progress can be many things…
    MIB…regardless of Jacobs role, I still wouldnt call him “good”…

    Glad to see you here Dabsi…

  51. Dabs & AES, after watching Ab Aeterno today, my view of Jacob has changed a bit.
    I always thought that Jacob is the good guy, but I changed my mind a bit.

    During Jacob’s conversation with Richard he says this:

    “That man who sent you to kill me [MIB] believes that everyone is corruptible because it’s in their very nature to sin. I bring people here to prove him wrong.”

    Protestants believe that the human nature is entirely corrupted. Saying that humans are able to do good by themselves, is like denying God himself. From their point of view, MIB would be the good guy, at least regarding his moral standpoint that humans cannot do good by themselves.

    The Enlightenment says that human nature is good and not corrupted. Enlightenment also pointed their view to science, in a time when everything was about religion.
    Dabs is making a very good point by saying Jacob views progress in scientific terms.

    My point with all this is that I’m a bit more sceptical about Jacob being the good guy. It seems more like it that Jacob = science and MIB = faith… After all, what MIB says is that human nature is corrupted. He doesn’t say humans can’t redeem themselves. He just says they can’t do it BY THEMSELVES.
    Besides, as Dabs also said, Jacob seems to show little regard for human life. He uses human lives for his ‘experiment’.

    I do agree with AES though that from a neutral point of view Jacob seems ‘better’ than MIB. Hope this comment was a bit clear…I had some of these ideas but I’m having a hard time to put it on paper sometimes. (Ask AES;))

  52. Oh and another thing, when Richard asks Jacob “If you brought them here, why didn’t you help them?” he responds “Because I wanted them to help themselves. (…) It’s all meaningless if I have to force them to do anything.”
    He even sounds a bit frustrated when saying it.

    In any case, Jacob seems to be anti-God…it’s all meaningless if God has to guide people…

  53. Stone, I believe god gave us freewill to make our own choices. If he did force us into behaving a certain way what would be the point? Of course it all depends on what your belief system is I suppose. As I am much more into spirituality than any paticular religion what Jacob says to Richard seems more in line to what god would say us. MIB tried to trick Richard into killing Jacob while Jacob gave Richard a choice.

  54. Roland, I completely agree.

    What I was trying to say was that until now I thought that Jacob was some sort of representation of God, or the good side.
    After watching the episode I was thinking about it and came to my conclusion that he actually isn’t (totally) on the side of Good/God…catching my drift?

    He seems to be on the free will side and even a bit anti-religion. BEcause he’s saying that helping people do good is meaningless.

    What I find weird though is that half a minute later he asks Richard to help him…how quick can you change your mind?!

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