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My Own Personal Flash Sideways… “Touched By an ‘Angle’…”

Last year after the season finale aired, many sites on the internet experienced interference from people seemingly hijacking/infecting them…this was one.
In the crash of ’09…I lost a theory that I posted in August last year, and with special help (THANK YOU!), I have found a copy that was erased from the past…and all of the comments.

Although I would like to post it in theories, I think its kind of a dick move, and I decided to put it in general…with all the comments included.

So…If you are bored, there are some things that make sense now, and some things that were off…but I think there is some truth and good ideas in the comments. Its interesting if nothing else with some things that are happening now.
The theory is in here, and I will space the comments out below to prevent any more confusion than it already is going to present.

Anyone who commented obviously may have a change of heart by now, but i felt they needed to be there due to many thoughts and ideas that developed there, whether myself or others…purposefully or not.

So…heres my theory from an alternate universe…

Touched By an “Angle”…

Touched by an “Angle”…
Posted by A.E.S. in Theories on 08 20th, 2009 | 30 responses (3 votes, average: 5 out of 5)
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Jacobs touch is the axiom for many theorms here in the lost universe. I however believe that his touch may be slightly less important in the way that it is being perceived.
Dabs wrote a very nice theory on Jacobs touch being related to the lists that are spoken of on the show. It was very informative and character related, while giving her own great personal supposition in regards to the matter.
There were some quiffs regarding a line concerning there being 6 people stated on the show being part of Jacobs list.
I feel that her main point was lost in the commotion of things, so I would like to reiterate in a way, my perspective of her overall thoughts, being simply the people who Jacob touched have work to do that is necessary for him to succeed in his long contention against what we all know as his Nemesis. I believe that Jacobs list does not HAVE to be a piece of paper with writing on it, but a list that is known to him and only a select few.
I believe that many of the lists spoken of on Lost were not only lists NOT pertaining to Jacob himself, but even the only time I recollect his name being attached/spoken by Picket in regards to “Shepard not being on Jacobs list” is incorrect due specifically to the source saying it.
Picket in no way knows Jacobs list. He knows the list(s) Ben has given him assuming they are truly from Jacob.
Richard in my eyes DOES speak to Jacob, and is capable of relaying Jacobs messages, but from that point it is left to the Ben/the leader to relay to the others.

The following is my list of viewpoints of the scenes involving Jacob and the Losties off island, with of course, my own personal feelings toward the situations.

-Kate’s lunchbox that jacob assisted her and Tom in stealing is the very same that she uses to bury their time capsul in. Upon helping them, he kind of bonks her nose with his finger in a playful fashion. This Lunchbox later became the box that held what Edward Mars refered to as the only thing Kate really cares about. It is what Kate and Tom are digging up at the time he is killed, and how Kate aquires her very personal airplane that has yet to be fully explained.
I think without this occuring, Kate may have very well had a different life, and never got on the plane at all.

-The Pen that Sawyer is given, is the very same that he uses to write the letter to the real Sawyer…Anthony Cooper. As Jacob hands young James the Pen, he grazes his finger, for a very subtle touch. Hence writing the letter, and eventually getting him on 815.

-Nadia’s death is what ultimatly causes Sayid to kill in the name of Ben, and attampt to kill Ben himself. The island/Jacob, and what is the main reason he returns to the island. As the car hits Nadia, Jacob touches Sayids shoulder for the slightest, yet obvious moment.

-Jacob giving Jack his candybar is the moment when Jack and Jacob actually speak, and Jacob, almost knowing of the surgical push that Jack recieved from his father in the operating room, informs him “I guess it needed a little push…”, in reply to Jack informing him of it being stuck. Most likely regarding what Christian had just said to Jack during the surgery…and leading to a possible guilt that Jack holds onto later down the road, with the result being him going to Austrailia, and ending up on the island. Does no one else find it odd, that Jack tells Kate this story in their very first encounter. Then, later on instructs her to recite it back to him when she and Sawyer are safe from the others grasp. Is it not strange, that this story has to do with the most traumatic surgical experiance of Jacks life, and is told to HIM by Kate at the exact moment in which he is performing an extremely difficult procedure on Ben to which Jack feels such dire need to succeed to, in his mind, get them off the island?

-Hurley’s guitar case is left in the cab by Jacob, after a brief conversation regarding Hurley’s return to the island. I feel the signifigance of the case is to remind Hurley of his friend Charlie’s bravery on the island. And as Hurley stated long ago, that Charlie didnt die in vain. His friend was brave, and now it is Hurleys time to be brave as well. If you pay close attention to the scene in which Jack rescues Hurley from “drowning”, (”put your feet down Hurley”), the guitar case is actually what is keeping Hugo afloat in the middle of the spa of the waterfall.

-Ilana’s injuries, however they came about (I assume we will learn more in the final season) seem to possibly be healed by Jacob, and his word alone, in a dark hour are what pushes her to go (return?) to the island.

-Sun and Jin are approached by jacob on their wedding day. Jacob explains that they should not take their “special” love for granted. Leading me to truly wonder what Sun is thinking in the airport when considering leaving Jin, and what Jin is truly thinking when he decides to leave for America for good with his wife. Upon his congratulations and advice, Jacob touches both of their shoulders.
It is questioned why Sun is not transported/flashed to the 70s with the other losties. It is in my opinion due to two seperate, and possibly related things.
One, Christian tells her she has a long journey ahead of her. To me meaning that she has work to do in her current timeperiod that is essential to Jacobs plan.
That, coupled with the idea that Mrs Hawking stated that ALL of the Losties must return to the island via 316, and several including JiYeon, Aaron, Walt, and most importantly Desmond. I believe that Bens line to her in pleading to …”tell Desmond Hume Im sorry” will have great signifigance in the final season.

-John Locke…John is approached by Jacob after taking a fall from a window, in which he was pushed from by his real father.
Jacob touches John, seemingly reviving a possible dead man, telling him that everything is going to be alright, and expressing his sorrow for what has happened to him, much like Ben Linus apologized for how miserable he made his life, right before he turned the frozen donkey wheel in the season 4 finale, “Theres No Place Like Home”.

The truth is, with the exception of this touching scene, I in some way believe that Jacobs touch is more of a metaphor to throw us off of the true things that occured…which is simply a minor event in the world that leads to a major event in the life of an individual. By these events occuring precisely the way that they do, they act as a catalyst for the rest of the “touched” peoples lives. Everything from that point on leads to an event moving them closer and closer together.
They meet each others friends, con artists, relatives, fathers, partners. They are in the same place at the same time, in parts of the world that coincidence couldnt alone justify.
By the time they arrive on the island, they have less degrees of seperation than Kevin Bacon.

They are meant to be together…they are meant to have a shared fate…a destiny together.
Its clear Jacobs touch is meaningful in a way more than just metaphorically. But I stand behind my belief that it is meant to be a distraction to a certain degree. But the power of his touch is real, and I mean in no way to take away from his “gift”.

I say gift for a reason. What do these people share. What do they have in common. They have work to do. They have as stated previously, a destiny to fullfill. Why couldnt Jack jump off the bridge? Why didnt Sayid die the many times he was shot or severly injured? Why does Kate never get hurt in all the car accidents, and shootouts she is in? Why didnt Hurley die or get hurt like the people on the dock that broke when it collapsed after he walked on it? Why doesnt James ever get caught, or killed? He seems to have been injured in many ways and no matter what, has always pulled through. WHY WONT JOHN DIE???
Could he have played a role in Michael not being able to kill himself ( you can go now Michael, Hmmm?).
To any of the survivors whom survived a plane crash on an island in the middle of nowhere in the South Pacific? LOL…Ill save that for another theory.

Jacobs visit is more important than his touch to all but Locke in my opinion. I feel that he pushed them through the mud as they walked the soggy path of destiny. And without his visits…this all may have never occured….
Think about this one…Ill come back to it later in comments…

If Jacob knows the future, either by way of scientific time travel, or some spiritual time/space travel, the way we have seen Christian Shepard appear on and off island in random places in a very sparatic and peculiur fashion.

It leads me to truly question why he would go about making the efforts to make such a small scale of events occur.
It obviously is a butterfly type of effect, and by doing and saying certain things to all of these individuals, it makes you truly wonder what his motives are?

He manipulated things outside of the realm of real time….Locke and Sayid’s encounter show the true timing of Jacob, and how precise he is when he decides to be.

It makes it hard for me to believe that he is tricked into being killed…that he didnt see it coming.

But at the same time, the losties may be the ones in the 70’s that caused that, one way or another.

By activating Juggheads guts inside of the swan station, it may have truly caused that break in time that was necessary for MIB to gain an advantage, regardless of the intentions.
Who knows at this point what it actually prevented from occuring, or caused to occur that could have swung things into the good will of MIB, but it very well could be the loophole that some have speculated.

I cant imagine that he was able to gain an advantage over Jacob without “The Incident” occuring.
“They are coming” hopefully means “they” as in “his” people, whether the Losties, or just Ilana and company with the real John Locke.

This again brings me to Anti-Locke’s words to Richard…

“…and then we are going to have to deal with the other Ajira passengers that brought me here”

“What do you mean ‘deal’ with them?”

“You know what I mean…”

It gives me that feeling that Jacob is not the only one that knows the future.

Anti-Locke is well aware of the time that they are in, and proves so through the scene of him sending Richard to speak with the real Locke, and inform him that he must die.

Well, I hope what was “given” to these characters by Jacob put more thought out there as to his intentions, and how important and life changing his helpful yet “manipulative” actions truly were. Look past the physicality of it all, and look at the signifigant implications that hide behind the touch. You will see that his presence in the scene is more important than the lucid material contact.

Of course I in no way doubt that the scene in 316 at the church, where Ben tells Jack about Thomas the Apostle, could be a subtle foreshadowing moment noting Thomas’ claim to fame was not his bravery, but his doubt regarding the Resurrection of Christ. Jack asks if Thomas was ever convinced. Ben explains that Thomas needed to TOUCH Christ’s wounds to be convinced and then says, “We’re all convinced sooner or later, Jack.” .

Maybe in the long run thats what Jacob is doing, convincing the Losties he touches to continue their journey to the island, long before the flight and crash occurs. He plants the seed of faith well before it is truly necessary in some, while waiting until the later but appropriate moment for others.

Although the basis for Jacobs desire for these characters is shown in his touch. From my perspective… from my “angle”, Jacobs utilization of such sentimental instances reflects the importance that these people play not just on the island or in Jacobs plot…but if all that is said and thought is true, the fate of the world lies literally in Jacobs hands.

Thats the theory…now here are the comments broken up into 4 sections…make the choice now whether you wish to strain your eyes…

Share with fellow Losties

Written by

A.E.S.

Abbot Enheduanna Schwarzschild

7 thoughts on “My Own Personal Flash Sideways… “Touched By an ‘Angle’…”

  1. imisscharlie Says:
    AES, once again, a superb bit of analytical writing!! (Are you a professional writer or storyteller? You certainly are compelling.)

    I really enjoyed your take on the entirety of the plot and the interrelationships of the characters. I truly believe that the original Losties (Jack, John, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley, Sayid, Sun, Jin, and Claire) were from the beginning tied together. It indeed was their destiny to survive the crash on the Island and then stay in order to fulfill their roles in a larger plan, Jacob’s plan. I really hope that this is fully explained and realized in Season 6!

    Great catch on Kate’s lunchbox!! I never noticed that, but it makes perfect sense that we see it play a major role in Kate’s life and relationship with Tom.

    The idea of the “touch” being both literal and figurative, and your play on words (angel/angle) was brilliant. Loved your closing statements!

    Just a couple of comments/questions:

    1. I keep coming back to the idea that Anthony Cooper isn’t John’s real father. He is first and foremost a con man, and I truly believe that he conned John’s mother to help him get the kidney. I’ve speculated before that you don’t necessarily need to be related to someone to receive their kidney—you just need to be a match. Who his real father is, I don’t know, but that could be another theory.

    2. While I love your take on Kate’s lunchbox, I don’t think there’s anything more on the toy airplane. I think that she sees the airplane both as a remembrance of her beloved Tom, as well as a symbol of the excruciating guilt she lives with since she is responsible for his death.

    3. Could you elaborate on the scene where Jack saves Hurley from drowning? Do you mean after the Ajira crash in the lagoon? I don’t remember Jack saying “put your feet down, Hurley.” But great thought on the guitar case being a symbol of Charlie, and thus a life-boat for Hurley!

    4. Sun and Jin! It seems obvious now that Jacob affected both of their life-changing decisions back in Korea. Jin plans his escape to America so that he can save his marriage, which is being ruined by Sun’s father and his “business.” Sun, while originally planning to leave Jin, decides also to save the marriage and boards 815 with Jin. They have heeded Jacob’s advice to never take their love for granted, and are giving it a second chance. Their love has blossomed on the Island, and has borne fruit (Ji Yeon). Out of all the Losties, they are truly redeemed. I just hope they will reunite in Season 6.

    5. I agree with you on Jacob not being tricked into being killed. He was too calm, and knew what was coming. It was almost as if it didn’t mean anything to him. Indeed, if he is a god, or god-like figure, the physical act of dying either wouldn’t be possible, or would be meaningless. We’ve seen eternal life and resurrection themes all through Lost, so this would fit in quite nicely. It was meant to happen in the larger scheme of things to fulfill the overall destiny/plan.

    Thanks again for a great read!

    (Report comment)
    August 21st, 2009 dabiatchishere Says:
    AES, this is superbly written and conceived! You did an amazing job of presenting to us the touch from Jacob and the meaning behind it.

    I think every single detail you have covered in your theory, is ’spot on’, in every sense of the word!

    You have brought insight and understanding into the meaning of Jacob’s touch, both symbolically and figuratively by illustrating how it effected each individual character and their interactions with the other characters.

    You have made sense out of all the previous interactions they made with one another, that previously was put down to coincidence. The truth of the matter is, that they were always connected.

    Like an artist, you have painted us a beautiful portrait of the events!

    I commend you for the high level of detail and thought you placed into your theory!

    Bravo!

    (Report comment)
    August 21st, 2009 dabiatchishere Says:
    AES, if there is one compelling piece of evidence to suggest that Jacob was well aware of his Nemesis’ plan, were his final words to him in the statue. “They’re coming”.

    Whatever the relationship which exists between the two, it is clear, that they share some similar powers.

    I believe that Jacob was prepared to sacrifice himself. Recall when John Locke turned the FDW and he told Christian that Richard had told him he had to die. Christian responded to John by saying, “that’s why they call it sacrifice, John”.

    Whether this is symbollic, or meant more in a literal sense, the implication is there. It also speaks to the phrase of ‘what lies in the shadow of the statue”. “He, who shall save us all”.

    Perhaps, Jacob knew he had to sacrifice himself for a greater cause. I would be willing to guess that this is something he would not be opposed to doing. Especially, considering that either Jacob himself will rise again, or ‘his essence’ will rise again in another to save them all.

    I believe that all of the previous events that have occurred were all part of Jacob’s plan, including some of the unpleasant things that have happened. As he and his Nemesis were both planning their calculated moves, Jacob had to accommodate for this.

    What I am implying is, that some of the unfortunate circumstances may have been necessary to the overall outcome of events.

    We are not privy to ‘the big picture’, but I have to believe there is one. It may not be what we have seen, thus far. I believe these were necessary events that will have more meaning once we are shown that picture.

    The culmination of these occurrences will have great significance in the end. We have heard Ms. Hawking and Charles Widmore make statements to the effect of what is occurring on ‘the island’ and the importance of that war, is dependent upon ’saving the world’.

    As for ‘the losties’ and the touch they received from Jacob. I liken it to ’sleepers’. They were called into action at an earlier period in time in their lives, to become activated at a later date, for a much larger purpose!

    I’m sure I will have more thoughts on this later!

    (Report comment)
    August 21st, 2009 Achalli Says:
    So much to absorb. I’ve printed this out so I can take time to fully comprehend this. I’ll get back to you on it.

    (Report comment)
    August 21st, 2009 kimberly Says:
    AES, you have written a lot of stuff, but this is one of the better ‘tying it all together’ pieces out there.

    What really stood out to me was this:

    “The truth is, with the exception of this touching scene, I in some way believe that Jacobs touch is more of a metaphor to throw us off of the true things that occured…which is simply a minor event in the world that leads to a major event in the life of an individual. By these events occuring precisely the way that they do, they act as a catalyst for the rest of the “touched” peoples lives. Everything from that point on leads to an event moving them closer and closer together.

    They meet each others friends, con artists, relatives, fathers, partners. They are in the same place at the same time, in parts of the world that coincidence couldnt alone justify. By the time they arrive on the island, they have less degrees of seperation than Kevin Bacon.

    They are meant to be together…they are meant to have a shared fate…a destiny together. Its clear Jacobs touch is meaningful in a way more than just metaphorically.”

    Considering that the role of destiny has been debated (and such an obvious theme no matter what the context of the storyline) you have made one of the clearest arguments for it. Not only that, but for all the other issues that could arise in the upcoming season you have brought the role of destiny back to the forefront. I like it.

    Nice post on a lot of levels, but that especially is refreshing to this between-season lull where it’s a good time to think about the big picture for the characters.

    (Report comment)
    August 21st, 2009 Achalli Says:
    P.S. Great play on words in the title.

  2. (Report comment)
    August 21st, 2009 A.E.S. Says:
    Thank you all very much for the comments.

    I truly appreciate them coming from many of the people who I most respect on the site…even the ones who came out of hibernation.
    ;]

    Imisscharlie… The rest of this is specifically for your questions and comments, and is VERY long. It does continue a large array of my beliefs, and through your response, is a continuation of my theory…so I encourage all who liked the above to read further…

    1) I do believe that Cooper is the real paternal father of John Locke. But I have to believe John, for better (as I believe) or worse, is more than just your average Joe.
    So many people get on this kick where they have to believe that John is not special…that he created his own destiny through time travel and is just a normal weak man being used.
    To a certain point, I agree with the statement.
    He did create his own destiny, and by doing so, caused some sort of paradox that seems to have pinballed into many other paradoxs…I may be a bit presumptuous in saying that, time will tell.
    Regardless, when Richard visits him, and discovers he is not “special”, he notices the drawing of the smoke monster and a man.

    My point being, that with our recent discovery in season 5 that John did physically exist somewhere in the past before his birth, throw in Desmonds time travel dejavu/dream/memory, a little concience travel, the idea that at some point MIB took over Johns form on a time traveling island, and you have a whole mess of things that could lead to us discovering (if we do) how young John could know in any way how or why to draw that particular picture…no, I do NOT think John imagined the monster and it came to life.
    But with the anagram of Canton Rainier/ reincarnation, I amagine it will in some way through time travel, or a religious (non specific) way show us this is why he is actually special.
    And the father of John as a child is meaingless in my eyes. John created his destiny after his childhood, and I think that due to both science and faith, John “knows” things that he really shouldnt know, specifically the island.
    Cooper was a vessel for John to arrive into this world, and a training block for him in his quest to do whatever the hell he is doing.
    Cooper also served as the perfect test for Ben and the others, although I believe that Ben was trying to either trick John, or truly had no idea what he was talking about.
    Funny thing though, John doesnt do it…he gets SAWYER to do it…much like MIB got Ben to kill Jacob.
    He not only proved his compassion, but his likeness to an attribute that seemingly protects some characters on the show, such as Widmore from Ben, and Jacob from MIB.
    I think Cooper is the father, and he was necessary to prep, test, and prove John Locke to…someone.

    Whew…good thinking questions. My apologies for the length, I sometimes dont know how to stop.

    2) I agree with your thought on the plane…almost.
    I am disapointed with the fact that it is just gone. I like when they link things, and present paradoxal situations with small random things on the show. I guess I just alway imagined we would see something along the lines of the Compass that Richard gave John…or did John give it to Richard ;]

    3)Exactly the scene after the Ajira crash.
    People are facinated with the idea of Jack running through the jungle just like the pilot episode.
    But I think its Jacks actions that impressed me after he arrived. If you watch the scene again. You will see him look down to Hurley screaming “HELP”, as he clings to the floating guitar case at the bottom of the falls.
    Jack jumps in and helps him to the shallow water where Hurley continues to flail until Jack tells him to “Put his feet down”. I normally like to dissect simple meaningless things driving people crazy with arbitrary thought…I will spare them the pain, we are doing well so far…so lets call it a funny scene.
    To conclude his pilotesque performance, he swims over and revives an unconcience kate. His heroics kick in during crisis, and he proved his selflessness yet again by acting without thought, and more importantly being capable of saving the ones he chooses.

    4)Jin and Sun…wow, talk about a rough marriage. Many couples seperate, but not by hostage situations, 30 years of time…or better yet, death.
    They did. And they have made it this far. OBVIOUSLY Sun has a long journey ahead of her, and I truly believe that it will end well. Ok, as well as anything ends on Lost.
    I actually like Des and Pennys story better. It was the “Constant”. What can I say, Im a sucker for a romantic thriller.
    But I have always thought their story will end badly, I dont know why…

    5)This subject is still sketchy for me.
    I agree fully that Jacob knew what was going to happen, counting on it.
    I think it did mean something…I know you didnt mean it as it didnt really mean anything. But in my eyes it seemed as if he knew the scenario was going to present itself, but not fully what Ben was going to do, hence him giving Ben a choice.
    But that doesnt mean he wasnt prepared for it to occur.
    This entire theory is in regards to the purpose of the Losties to Jacob.
    This scenario is what Jacob has truly brought them for.
    We found out why they were or were not allowed on the lists , and we all question
    what the lists actual purpose was itself…this is it. Everything they have done has caused the present scenario of Jacobs death to occur. When its all said and done, I think they will all fully repent for what they have done in their past, and allow themselves to become major players in the final saga of the story…the last chapter.
    We see the order of things, in the season 5 finale, we saw the earliest scene in the timeline yet, and how amazing it would be if they showed us why the beginning of the show happened at all in the end. The show in a way almost is playing backwards, while jumping in a Memento like fashion to throw us all off of the scent.
    If you like a compelling story, and rewatch the show, you will notice that many of the flashbacks IN A THOUGHT REGARDING OVERALL TIMEFRAME, not individual episode sequences.

    Season one consists much of the Losties recent past events.
    Season two offers a deeper look in regards to their past, the tail sections past, and an intro to the others, the heart of the islands history.
    Season three is when they decided the end date, and length of the show. They delved into the others past, Ben and Julie specifically. It touched on many, but this is also important island history occuring.
    Season four gives us flashforwards, but more importantly takes us back to the 50s for John Lockes childhood in Cabin Fever.
    Season five takes us allllll the way back to two years before Lockes birth.
    But the most important scene was the opening to the finale, in which we saw Jacob and MIB.
    The question is…is this the past. Is this the beginning?

    And if this is true, is it possible that the rumors are true…and it will “end where it all began”?

    (Report comment)
    August 21st, 2009 A.E.S. Says:
    Dabsi, as usual thank you for the compliments.

    I believe the words “Your coming” and a seemingly mutual understanding for the phrase do indeed show their relationship not just in power, but knowledge.
    Sacrifice plays a large part, whether self motivated or without consent.
    But I believe you are correct in both John and Jacobs willingness to die for the cause.

    There is definetly a big picture, and we are seeing it, just not the whole thing. Randomized to no particular fashion, much as the numbers seem to be.
    I feel it will not be until the end when every Lostie has shown their colors that we will find the picture as a whole.

    Thank you again for the kind words, they are very much appreciated.
    ;]

    (Report comment)
    August 21st, 2009 A.E.S. Says:
    Well, well, well…look what we have here…

    I thought I saw that gravatar as I was scrolling down the page, and thought no, shes too good for us. I thought you moved away without saying goodbye ;]

    Hello Kimberly I am delighted to see YOU here again!
    Thank you for the kind words.

    Yes, yes, yes… destiny…it calls sometimes you know.

    You are dead oon to see what I am trying to do.
    I know I left out many characters.
    But these are the ones who have been focused on since the beginning. They have been literally hand selected by Jacob to play a part in what is leading to be a very important event for the island and possibly mankind.

    There are so many good theories floating around right now, and I apologize if I miss some big ones from people recently, I do read many and dont have time to comment in a timely fashion, and would rather not do a half assed approach. But I do vote on many more than I comment on. Great stuff here as of late.
    But I really wanted something that could not only bring together what we are seeing now in the show with the past/beginning. Or even more character connections, Lostpedia is great for that alone.
    I wnated something that would tie the relationships of the characters to the history in the storyline, much as the show has given us the previous season.

    Jacob and MIBs dispute coincides with all that Lost is going to end up representing, and there needed to be a way to better understand what we are really seeing take place with Jacob and the losties and their relationship to the islands/worlds past present and future.

    Kim, I am glad to see YOU here, and hope you will join us for more conversation.

    I have been waiting for an opportunity to connect the dots, and now that we are heading into the homestretch, I plan on doing exactly that to the best of my abilities.

    (Report comment)
    August 21st, 2009 A.E.S. Says:
    Achalli, thanks for the props.

    My favorite part of theorizing is making the titles.
    I have to try and pay some homage to the effort they put towards the episode titles on the show.

    I patiently await your insight, Im sure we will be on the same page as usual.

  3. (Report comment)
    August 22nd, 2009 Achalli Says:
    AES, it looks like I’m going to end up playing devel’s advocate here. As I was reading through this post a thought occured to me relating to my recent post. If I’m understanding your theory correctly Jacob shows up in the Losties’ lives in order to give them a nudge in the right direction and ensure that their destiny lies with the Island. Now the consensus seems to be that Jacob believes that humans can change their violent, animalistic tendecies; while Nemesis believes that humans will always resort to their animalistic behaviors. Or as I put it in my post Nemesis believes that humans will always follow their biological programming and react to situations according to that programming while Jacob believes that humans can override and switch off the program.

    So my question is this, if Jacob appears in the Losties life at just the right time in order to ensure that they fulfill their destiny by going to the Island and completeing their work, isn’t he in a way just proving Nemesis point after all. In a sense, particulary with Kate and Sawyer, Jacob just modified their programming to reinforce that part of the human program concerned with seeking justice for harm done to ones ‘pack’ (this is what drives Sawyer and Kate, which eventually leads them to the Island). If Jacob needs to utilize their programs to ensure they end up on the Island then he just ends up confirming Nemesis view after all.

    To further illustrate what I’m driving at I refer you to page 730 of the Illuminatus Trilogy. It’s the part of the story where Hagbard Celine is explaining to George about what has transpired. Hagbard was saying of the Illuminaty that “…I was trying to show them that it’s possible to get involved in this world without being corrupted by the crimes of this world. And I failed.”

    (Report comment)
    August 22nd, 2009 Roland Says:
    I’m not sure Jacob has to help Ilana in any way. As you say the writers were pretty obvious in not showing Jacob touching her when he visits Ilana in the hospital. I’ve assumed, perhaps wrongly, that she doesn’t need help in healing as Jacob was the one there asking for help. I can’t wait to find out more about her. We have two guys with some sort of god like powers. I think we have been introduced a women who has those same powers.
    I understand what people are saying in regards to Jacobs’ lists. Ben does mention them when he and Flocke vist him. But Jacob doesn’t confirm or deny that they came from him. I have to agree with Highbrow especially since he took the time to go thru 4 seasons of transcripts to see when lists were mentioned.

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    August 22nd, 2009 A.E.S. Says:
    I cannot say I agree with Ilana having Godlike Powers. I think if she did, we would not have seen her layed out in a hospital bed.

    I believe it is Jacob who needs Ilanas help, which is why he asks her if she will help him.
    I speak lightly of the lists here, and focus more on the meaning behind the reasons the characters are visited by Jacob, who I assume has a list at least in his mind of the people he needs to visit.

    Highbrows research is valid on another post at this point with no precise evidence to support the claim, with the exception of some people who claim to have heard this on the show, including the theorist of the post in which it is posted.
    I feel that without Dabs adding the statement of 6 people being on the list, more focus would have been put on the moral of her theory, and it would have been better interpreted for the great theory and idea that it did truly present…which in turn inspired this theory.

    I feel Jacob and MIB are the only true carriers of godlike powers, and Ilana may have something to the lines of Richards aging ability at best.
    I agree that she is most likely a more historical figure on the show, but she will not carry enough importance to go as far as Alpert or any of the losties in regards to signifigance value.

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    August 22nd, 2009 A.E.S. Says:
    Achalli, up to this poin, you are correct to say that the losties have done what was necessary for MIB to arrive on the island.

    I believe that they have and will fail up until the final moments of the shows life.

    They strive to perform the duties necessary to achieve what they feel is truly right.
    They make mistakes, and due to some situations and the islands capabilities, they continually have another chance.

    I find it hard to believe that Jacob made his visits for nothing. I believe the purpose of these people being there and is truly necessary in Jacobs plan.

    MIB is the Hagbard of Lost.
    Always decieving. Playing parlor tricks and using magic for deception.
    He is the epitomy of manipulation…A trait tht the bad guys at their moments on Lost ALWAYS possess.

    So I guess that answers a question you have wondered from me.
    ;]

    On the programming thought, Jacob didnt modify it really, he just gave them a chance.
    Gave them all a chance to repent, but the opportunity to walk two very different paths HAD to present itself.

    As risebysin noted in his theory, that Jacob gave everyone a choice to do the things they did, he forced no hand.

    Whoever “they” are is signifigant, and “they” will play a major role in the final season, although I believe “they” are Ilana and company.
    I believe their role is possibly limited to what we have seen, and will play more into the background story of Jacob and Nemesis.

    With that, I predict seeing the end of their stories rather early in the season, leaving us with the Losties, bith alive and dead, and Jacob and MIB, and of course the others.

    We should see many questions anwered, and with all that there is to know, I would imagine that this is going to explain at least the cabin, being that Ilana and Brahm knew precisly where to find it, knew the ash rings purpose, and burnt it to the ground.

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    August 22nd, 2009 A.E.S. Says:
    You know what Achalli, the title of this theory was originally called “Jacob the manipulator”, and obviously was headed in a completely different direction.

    But when you watch the scenes again, especially with Ben, you see the goal he is trying to accomplish is getting the Losties to make the BEST choice in regards to not only his and the islands interest, but the best moral decision as well.

    Im glad you brought up the question of his comparison to MIB, because it is easy to confuse proposed choice from hidden deception and manipulation.

    (Report comment)
    August 22nd, 2009 Roland Says:
    Obviously the six that were touched are very important to Jacob. I guess the mention of lists throws things off kilter as we want evidence of such. It does distract from the real message you and Dabs are trying to convey.
    I don’t believe Richard is working with Flocke and I do think he has been in communication with Jacob. Whether he was a willing go between or something else entirely is yet to be seen.
    On another subject that you bring up I’ve thought that the rift in time or loophole or whatever is was caused by either Desmond not pushing the button which in turn caused 815 to crash. Or when Locke deliberately did not push the button and the whole Swan station implodes.
    In a round about way both The Incident and Desmond not pushing the button could play into Jacob and MIB’s hand. Jacob needs these certain people to be on the island although they are the same ones that cause things to go awry in the first place. I’m not sure if I stated that clearly but it makes a weird sort of sense in my head.

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    August 22nd, 2009 Sinster Says:
    Beautiful, and wonderful insight

    I think that was a wonderful point you made about Jack’s first conversation with Kate, I’ve thought of that myself.

    I believe in the end, Jack will be the leader of the others. He has always just needed a little ‘push’.

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    August 22nd, 2009 Sinster Says:
    I also completely agree with you about Sun. She ended up where she is possibly b/c the scenario of the flight 815 was no recreated. They should NOT have been sitting in first class, and Walt and Aaron should have been on the plane.

    I disagree completely about Ji Yeon, and Desmond. Neither one of them were on flight 815 so they were not part of the recreation, and did not need to be on the plane.

    (Report comment)
    August 22nd, 2009 A.E.S. Says:
    Roland, the obviousness of importance that the people visited by Jacob are signifigant is portrayed in the scenes alone.
    What Im doing is simply dissecting the scene to gain more insight and show another perspective into the visit itself, objects given, and words conveyed by Jacob.
    These other things carry equal if not greater importance than the touch, and are truly why he affected those individuals lives.
    IMAGINE if they could see him now…how would they feel to meet the man that was there at those particular moments in their lives…on the island…how would THEY feel.

    How would YOU feel if the man who bought the lunchbox that eventually leading to the death of your childhood love turned out to be the leader of the magical timetraveling island you have been stuck on, released from, and then voluntarily returned to, only to aid in two of the most signifigant things in island history?

    I understand the deal with the lists, I was just able to see around that, to the true idea conveyed.
    Which again is why I truly stayed away from that to extend these ideas in a seperate way. Although as I said earlier, her theory did lead to this writing.

    Im glad you dont buy Richard being Team Nemesis, I am truly against that idea.

    As for Desmond, I think he is responsible for the technical part of bringing the losties to the island, via not pushing the button…but I think his role is much larger than that now, and will extend past that particular thought…although I did consider it.
    I think the way the episode played out showed us a breakdown of what needed to happen for MIB to gain an advantage, how it happened, and if it truly did work.

    The scene in the beginning has them introduce the idea of the “loophole”, and why it was presented, so MIB could kill Jacob.
    Then we go on to see back and forth, exactly what it is that is able to make that scene spoken of occur, and Jacob was indeed, “right here”.
    We see the losties, then Flocke and company, back and forth. The losties in the 70s, Flocke and company in 07…the Losties throw the inside to a hydrogen bomb into the energy pocket of a highly unstable device…
    We see Richard, Ben, Flocke, and Sun march up to Jacobs house and go inside.
    We see Juiet activate the device, which is immediatly followed by a white flash and the end of the show…
    But in 2007, Flocke and Ben march into Jacobs cabin, Ben stabbing him, and Flocke pushing him into the fire.
    I think this is an example of the show presenting a mini story in one episode, from start to finish.

    MIB wants to kill Jacob…
    He needs to find a loophole…
    He makes Richard tell Locke to bring everyone back, and for him to die…
    The losties detonate the device, causing the incident, and creating some sort of time disturbance/anomily on the island…
    Once this is done, Des is later, as said earlier is brought there to ensure the button didnt get pressed so 815 crashes and Losties arrive to “cause things to go awry in the first place”, which is the predestination paradox you speak of.

    I wrote a theory on this…”Just a Theory…” check it out for more examples of this occuring in Lost.

    This all leads to Jacob dying…but Jacob still went off island and touched these individuals…he still did what was necessary to ensure aid them in their decisions to make certain events occur, and coming dangerously close to actually encountering each other along the way.

    Their connections run deeper than any more examples than I could give, and I truly feel that they will do the right thing in the end, whatever that may be.

    Sorry I got a little off track, I do that sometimes.
    Thank you very much for the insight and questions, the more I explain my views, the more I can learn and understand.

    (Report comment)
    August 22nd, 2009 A.E.S. Says:
    Thanks for the compliments Sin, I like the idea of Jack being the leader, after all, his tattos claim that he is a “great man”.

    Lol, I missed the “first class part”, and Walt and Aaron Definetly should have been on that plane.
    JiYeon, I can agree with you there, I think I even say “possibly” in a previous theory of mine regarding her…
    But Desmond I feel if necessary…Yes, yes, nicely done on the correction that he should not have been on the plane, my mistake indeed.
    He will return, and play some role in the islands final chapter.
    I have considered the possibility of meeting him again in the 70s, and him dying.
    Considering his “memory” of Faraday telling him to meet his mother, the consequences could present an interesting subplot to the show…I know, thats why its not a theory, lol…

    I actually think Widmore and Desmond will join forces and return to the isalnd accompanied with the children for whatever reasons…yes, I understand the question of why in the world would that ever occur, but stranger “coincidences” have happened on Lost in the past.

    (Report comment)
    August 23rd, 2009 Tas Says:
    Cool theory AES, can I throw a bit of a twist in the idea – mostly from a few things you mentioned. You added that you were basing this idea on the thought that for some reason Jacob had seen into the future. I propose that rather than Jacob choosing these people and leading them down the paths to be on the particular flight, he knew they would be on that flight, and knew they would crash and wanted to see who of the passengers could be recruited to fight his side of the war. What if the touch was kind of like a protective symbol. OR, which I like a bit more – you talked about Ben’s conversation with Jack around Thomas’ needing to touch Jesus – what if Jacob needed to touch Kate etc… to see that they would be the person he would need. the action of Jacob touching was more important than being touched. Just an idea.

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    August 23rd, 2009 A.E.S. Says:
    Tas you devil, a wonderful idea.

    I cringe at the thought of digging TOO deep on what things mean, only because I am often scrutinized for it here.

    I still continue to do so, bu at a slightly less in depth level than I really care to sometimes…I hate holding back.

    But I do love the suggestions you proposed.

    We see the same way about things such as protection and the Thomas story, and I love the extra steps you took in your dissection of my thoughts.

    Not just the words, items, and touch, but meaning of the touch itself, brilliant insight on that one.

    I like the idea of it being Jacobs way of learning about the losties, along the lines of Smokey scan in a way ;]

    Great thought on Jacobs judgement, it will be something I will truly have to consider.

    Excellent commenting…

    (Report comment)
    August 23rd, 2009 Sinster Says:
    I agree that Desmond will be back! I love him too! I can’t wait 2 see what his part in the story will play out 2 be.

    (Report comment)
    August 23rd, 2009 pennyanddes Says:
    As long as Desmond comes back without leaving Penny and their child: that would be too sad! Their love story is my favourite and it just can’t end up!

    (Report comment)
    August 23rd, 2009 A.E.S. Says:
    My favorite as well pannyanddes, I hope for the best, but have my concerns as well…

  4. (Report comment)
    August 24th, 2009 dabiatchishere Says:
    AES, I have a few more insights to add after reviewing the comments thus far.

    We have all heard the popular phrase “He/She was touched by the hand of God”. We know that in the literal sense, this is not true. It is ’symbolic’ in nature. This may have been a device that the writers selected to illustrate a connection between ‘the losties’ and Jacob.

    Jacob’s touch did not alter the ‘choices’ good/bad in ‘the losties’ lives. But, one could say that Jacob’s touch did eventually lead every single one of them, to be on board of #815 that fateful day, so they were able to fulfill their roles in a much bigger picture.

    The ‘touch’ is very significant in the symbolic sense. We are not privy to the full extent of its meaning at present.

    AES, your point regarding Jacob allowing choice reminds me of the words Ben carefully selected when trying to convince Jack to perform his surgery.

    Ben tells Jack, “I need you to do this surgery”. He then revises that statement to say, “No, Jack I need for you to want to do this surgery”.

    This indicates that Ben was well aware this needed to be Jack’s choice. As conflicted as Ben was because this was his own life at stake, I believe he was still following the protocol of ‘the others’ and Jacob’s beliefs regarding choice.

    Many would disagree with that statement, because Ben eventually kills Jacob, however Ben was aware that it was HIS choice, and decided to act upon it, in FULL awareness. In a desperate moment, he lost full control.

    This is reminiscent of the whole debate over Free Choice, and who influences it. Clearly, in this case, Nemesis’ ability to influence Ben’s choice won out!

    (Report comment)
    August 24th, 2009 Achalli Says:
    AES, sorry I’ve been away for a couple of days. I guess the difference for the two of us right now is who we are viewing as the Hagbard of Lost. I believe that you are correct in viewing Nemesis as Hagbard based on the tactics that they both use. So if I’m interpereting you comment correctly Nemesis is basicaly using the Celine system on the Losties.

    However I believe if you compare Hagbard’s actual views and work for the Illuminati (or I should be saying A A) he is more in line with Jacob’s philosophy, and if that is the case then Jacob will just prove Nemesis’ point as he lets the Losties use their programing.

    (Report comment)
    August 24th, 2009 A.E.S. Says:
    Dabsi, I have not thought of that scene with Jack in surgery in that context…good thinking on that one…

    I have in past theories stated that I believe that the reason Ben wanted Jack to “want to do the surgery” is due to the “gifts” that so many of the losties seem to have.

    I always thought Jacks “gift” would be to fix things. Like Hurley sees the dead, and Miles talks to them.
    I still feel this is going to play out somehow, but I think your insight is reasoning to believe that is the reason why Ben wanted him to want to do it…this can be quite confusing at times, lol…

    That leads me back to a thought of yours earlier in your comment regarding “the touch of god”.
    I have to respect the actual physical touch for the simple reason that Jacob touched John, and he seemingly came back to life, awoke, or was revived in some way.

    But as my theory tells, I think that the touch is not the full reason for the visit, its more subtle, and its use is something different than getting the Losties “where they are supposed to be”.

    Its very obvious that this is still on the path of fate vs free will, and yes, Ben did lose control of his own thoughts and will in this battle, good call!

    (Report comment)
    August 24th, 2009 A.E.S. Says:
    Achalli, (you know I still copy and paste your name? I always screw it up…),

    Celine system is a go…what you see, lol, is definetly not what is necessarily the truth….

    Truth is, I really dont see anyone who IS just like Celine, but almost anyone who plays for team nemesis would go that route…in a way…

    Celine says words…some true, some not. You are to assume what he is saying is true, all the while in the back of your head, you know that almost everything is false…or is it?

    Its a trait that is more worn by Ben, but its Nemesis’s abilities that lead me to he being a Celine Character.

    The whole show really follows Celines thinking…make them see one thing, when its really something else…

    I questioned Celine before and after reading the book, hell, thats supposedly not even his real name if you follow all the author gives in other books, something I know you do.

    I dont like labeling anyone is anyone, in the situations of one story to another, but its the backbone of the story that I long after…

    Its a good thought you present (as before) of following Jacobs philosophy would in turn, put a notch on the board for Nemesis…but I think there are still pieces of the puzzle that will make it more clear that that idea is inaccuarte in the long run…but up to this point, I can see why it makes sense to you.

    (Report comment)
    August 25th, 2009 Achalli Says:
    AES, basically we agree in concept, it’s just the details we’re quibbling about. You know what would really be interesting is if Hagbard and Ben met. We’d get dizzy watching to see who could out manipulate the other. I would have to put my money on Hagbard with that one.

    I know what you mean about the character traits, I agree with you about the show being similar to Hagbard’s thinking, hell even the way the show jumps around is similar to the book. As for the Celine system would you say that Jack & Co. trying to explode jugghead would be analogus (not sure if I spelled that right) to the scene with Harry Coin, Celine, and the gun?

  5. Dear AES,
    I hope you find these LAST few episodes to your liking. While, all I can say is that the casual viewer I am sure will find the finale EPIC, I am not so sure that hardcore fans can/will accept what they see, so I hope forums like these stay up for at least a while because there will definitely a lot to debate about and I look forward to personally debating a few with you. Until then, stay sharp.

  6. Hello Doll…
    Sharp as a dagger…and I love a good debate…
    If you get a chance, take a look at my “Jacob is Bad” post and let me know your thoughts either, good or bad…

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