Yep – still thinking about it

Wow, look at the hustle and bustle of activity here. Hello there Bob. It appears as though you are the only consistent poster here, I come back and check every so often to see if there is anything new.

1) I have begun re-watching season 6 this week.
2) I was/am one of those people who was disappointed in the finale, and the lack of answers provided (to the questions that most interested me.)
3) I believe I liked the time travel aspect and the island mysteries the most.

So as I am watching the episodes I still can’t shake one specific idea or topic about these characters or this show.

Reincarnation. It also bothers me that there probably will never be an answer or resolution to this either but…

So I have had the idea that the characters have always been intertwined and that there was something more there, I believe I may have even created threads in the past about it, or posted to those threads.

One thing that has stuck with me, well everything has, I have watched the damned series like 5x, was that book Jacob was carrying upon touching Locke, something like ‘Everything that Rises must Converge.’ I always imagined this as something, a spirit, aura, person floating upwards towards a conical peak where everyone converges. I never thought out if it was a spiral towards the top, or timelines or whatever, that part wasn’t important. It was more like, all of these reincarnations of people are now meeting near the top, the island, to protect it, destroy it, leave it.

And we have the Rainier-Canton van clue…

Anyways, I think the characters we know are simply reincarnations, or different versions. Perhaps this is how the numbers come into play, another time and discussion maybe. But to be brief and to the point here is what I think:

I think if you look at the characteristics of the people, what they stand for, you can see similarities between them. I also think there are slight physical similarities too but that is not what I base this on, but it helps.

Sayid and Desmond – both have long lost loves that they are almost constantly striving to re-connect with.

Kate, Ilana, and perhaps Juliet – strong independent women, self sufficient.

Walt and Michael (together) and Ben and Roger (together)- both boys were shot by people, both fathers struggled to protect/raise their children.

Claire and Rousseau – babies taken away from each, left alone on the island.

Sawyer and Lapidus – outspoken, strong willed, kind of sarcastic.

I think the list and comparisons could go on and on, Dogen and Jack for example. So there it is, the first theory in a while, let me know what you think. Bob T. Maybe list examples of similarities between characters that you see.

Christian? Richard?

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10 Replies to “Yep – still thinking about it”

  1. Okay. Little editing.

    Take Ben/Roger away from Walt/Michael, that one now seems wrong.

    Add Jin to Desmond/Sayid – also all three are always desperately trying to reunite with their soulmates.

    I’d also like to include Alex Rousseau to the Ilana/Kate pair.

    If you watch the S6 episode Dr. Linus, maybe everyone else caught it, you can see Ben’s parallel choices between the two timelines. One he is forced to choose between destroying Alex’s future (Yale letter,) and chooses to “save” her. In the other timeline, seemingly simultaneously, he is forced to choose bewteen killing Ilana but again saves her. The only time he lost his daughter was on the island when he chose it over Alex and allowed Keamy to kill her.

    Effing Lost man, I tell you.

  2. Can’t believe I forgot this one.

    Jack and Richard – both are desperate to find a purpose.

    Here is what I’d like you to do. Grab some refreshments, queue up the Dr. Linus episode and watch with the above ideas fresh in your mind. The similarities seem undeniable to me. For example when Jack and Richard are on the Black Rock. Both disappointed in Jacob, both have been following blindly, neither can die.

    Oooh, maybe Dogen and Christian?

  3. Hey Apostle! So glad you checked in..Been a long time.. I still miss the days of theorizing on this site.. after reading your post, i was so inspired to read up that book Jacob was reading. Here’s the link in Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everything_That_Rises_Must_Converge

    how interesting! None of the short stories really touch on reincarnation..I’m thinking maybe the mention of that book is more about the title, which is a quote from this philosopher http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Teilhard_de_Chardin

    I think the theme of reincarnation was touched on in Season 5 to open the doors of possibilities to where the writers could take the ending. I suppose reincarnation does fit with the whole idea behind the “light”, and it being the source of life. In the end, the Losties would enter and rejoin back into that “light” that they and every person came from. So theoretically, if the light is then placed back into newborn when they become alive, it could include a piece that was in Jack or Kate or Sayid etc..

    As I write this, I feel like throwing up, because to me, this is not at all what Lost was ever supposed to be about. I was hoping (just as many other people were) that somehow Losties being alive in another timeline but having memories of the original timeline is kind of its own type of reincarnation…

    so to comment on your examples, not actually reincarnations, but the similarities are poetic in a way. Your first example of Desmond and Sayid..If you think about it, Desmond is the only true romance-without-tragedy story in Lost. It was tragic at first I suppose, but then Penny chases him down, they get married and have a baby Charlie, and then at the end on the Island I can only suppose Hurley helps Desmond reunite with Penny again..In then in the After life, Des meets Penny again which helps him remember and realize it’s his role to bring everyone back together..

    Sayid on the Other hand, totally tragic.. He was supposed to be with Nadia his true love.. But he’s only aloud to be with her for a year until she dies.. and then in after life he still feels like he doesn’t deserve her.. So that’s where Shannon fits in; she’s like this needy helpless young girl which allows Sayid to step up and feel like a good person again..

    Ok enough comments for now..I’ll probably be chiming back in later… Thanks again for submitting and saying hey! I miss this site!!!

  4. ahh are you kidding me?! I just did like a 2 page comment and it’s not posting because I put a couple links to Wikipedia in there argghhh! so anyways, Hey Apostle! welcome back! thanks for posting.. I’m too tired now to repost anything…

  5. Hey guys,

    I agre with Bobt, I like the idea of reincarnation that was mentioned, but I think it’s a little bit of a stretch. From a storytelling perspective, there are a finite number of character themes that can exist (although they can be dressed very differently), and maybe that is why it is easy to draw parallels between many of the characters in this show. But I don’t think that they are the same souls at various points in their metaphysical lives.

    It’s really hard to not come to the conclusion that the payoff was a cop-out, because unfortunately, I think it was. I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on what the show is about, imagining that the finale never happened.

  6. allaboutalpert –

    I don’t know if I’d given much thought to what the show was about other than what I have written in all of my previous posts.

    I guess I went with a very basic, much discussed theory. The two men, Jacob and MIB, were currently the ones tasked with playing the game, protecting the island. The game has been going on forever, and they have chosen other players say based upon characteristics, the numbers, etc. I was hoping for a time loop, and that dozens of others were trapped in this sequence, just slightly off. I thought that Jacob was hoping for a different outcome this time, at the end of thousands of years, and that MIB knew it would only end the same way again.

    The D.I. was a paranormal group trying to unlock the mysteries of the time travel, the invisibleness of the island, etc.

    And now, I am fearful too much time has passed since the finale, since the culmination of the show and if I have lost perspective of what was significant to me. Is the show more about each human having their own scale, of good and evil? Is MIB banking on everyone having a sliver of evilness? Or does Jacob believe that there is goodness in every man? Is Jacob trying to find his replacement, one that will overlook and neglect everything for the island in order to keep the evil from escaping?

    I still don’t necessarily get the whole flash sideways thing, so they are dead the enitre time? Who is that flash sideways for, one individual to get home (Jack) or for all the Losties to reunite and move one?

    I am confused now and don’t know if what I wrote is coherent.

    And Bob –

    Holy cow thanks for the link. I so don’t understand most of it. Can you help me out and tell me what info you were able to glean from that link in regards to that book title? Or did I miss it?

  7. hey apostle+allaboutalpert! sorry it took so long to ring back in.. This site is so different now without the ongoing discussions, I feel like I have the luxury of ringing back in anytime, but hey..just like you said in the title of your theory apostle, i am STILL THINKING ABOUT IT. Lost made such an impression on me it just doesn’t go away..and I always drift back to this site..

    so about the link to “everything that rises”, reading it right now.. wow, I think I might have missed it too.. I mean, I don’t want to try to explain something I don’t understand. The “everything rises” is in reference to chardin’s “omega point”, if you can understand that, you’ll understand everything..which admittedly I’m just taking it in now..don’t comprehend much of it, it’s a bunch of philosphical jargon. But what I think is cool and related to Lost is that the Omega point relates to each one of Oconnor’s short stories, just as the science behind Lost, especially time travel and destiny, relates to the each character’s individual biographies which could have just as easily been a short story in Oconnor’s book if you ask me..
    Just read the summary of each short story and ask yourself if person centric to the story would have been an ideal survivor of Oceanic 815 with flashbacks of their own.

    And concerning the question of what Lost was “all about”. I actually love your answer apostle..especially this:
    “Is MIB banking on everyone having a sliver of evilness? Or does Jacob believe that there is goodness in every man?”
    As I ponder those two questions, I see the similarities in both. Perhaps, they actually BELIEVE the same thing, but choose to see it in different ways. In other words, both know mankind is frail and corrupt; but MIB sees the end before it even starts, whereas Jacob sees the progress before it ends. They both believe it will end, that isn’t their disagreement.
    MIB-“come, kill, corrupt; all ends the same”
    Jacob-“only ends once, everything is progress”

    It’s also important to try to dissect what their Mother believed. I believed she believed more like MIB, that man is corrupt and can’t be trusted with the light that is beneath the Island. But, like Jacob, she believed the light to be very important and that it is the source of human life, so it must be protected. MIB did NOT believe this; he didn’t care. He only saw it as a MEANS to an END, which his end was to get the heck off the island..

    So the fundamental question is, if the lightsource is so very sacred, is it so sacred that it needs to be kept out of the very thing it was created for i.e. mankind. Mother believed that to be so, and she went through great lengths to assure man couldn’t get to it. And also, she went through great lengths to isolate Jacob and MIB from other people to “keep” them from being tainted by human corruption. This is also what the others believed too..kidnapping kids and raising them uncorrupted.

    But what is so ironic is, Mother loved the one son more that was corrupted himself. She admired him and saw his specialness. But through that whole story of across the sea, she realized that it was Jacob who was meant to protect the light because he valued human life and valued the sacredness of the light.

    Through Jacob’s ultimate “plan”, he wanted to go against his Mother’s philosophy of isolating a person from being corrupted, and protecting the light from mankind. Jacob was betting on, that even though man is corrupt; they can still be entrusted to protect the Island (no of the candidates were raised in isolation, they were all broken.)

    So in conclusion; if something is considered sacred, it has no value unless it can be shown to people; even though people have the power to destroy it and make it lose its “sacredness”. Mankind must be entrusted with what is sacred, so they understand the meaning of why something is sacred..

    And that is what I believe Lost to be about..

  8. Hello bobt,

    Glad you wrote again. I must say, I don’t know if I have read another post that seemed to clarify as much for me as yours did. I don’t know a more simple way to say it other than I get what you wrote and I agree with it. I see what you mean by both Jacob and MIB believing in the same thing just seeing it differently.

    And another thing you wrote that I never picked up on during the show or discussions here was how Jacob was using candidates with potential flaws. I know he used that word in describing why he chose them during that campfire scene, but now I get it. You are right, he was raised to be innocent, unbiased by any outside influences (Jacob,) but now he is using his own candidates. Kind of like when Hugo and Ben are talking, taking care of the injured Desmond outside the light source, Ben says to Hugo “that’s how Jacob ran things, maybe there’s a different way to do it.” Jacob changed how his mother did it by not having pure candidates and now Hugo will do it his way. Like Frank Sinatra.

    The omega point is indeed interesting. I like it.

    So what were some of your favorite themes/other things/questions you had about the show? I really, really liked the time travel and wanted an answer badly. Faraday, the numbers, Desmond. So many. Geronimo Jackson, that little toy plane Kate had to rob a bank for.

    And to those who were concerned, I think I comprehend the flash sideways now.

    Random note about the impact of Lost: every story idea I have, eventually gets tossed out as I feel like I am ripping off Lost.

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