Is anyone else here going to be at Lost Live: The Final Celebration on Thursday?
Is anyone else here going to be at Lost Live: The Final Celebration on Thursday?
Wasn’t Desmond wearing a wedding ring back in LA X?
I am 99.9% sure that he was. “Happily Ever After” emphasized Des’ singleness in all of the leading up to ‘remembering’ Penny. Desmond from tonight’s episode was very ringless. There is no way it’s a continuity error.
So the Desmond that is on Flight 815 in “LA X” is…
The Devil betrayed me and stole my body, my humanity… explained MIB to a bewildered Richard Alpert about “the Devil” (that we know as Jacob).
We know that MIB is now appearing/using the identity and bodily form of John Locke, even though there is a dead body of John Locke buried on the island.
We know that MIB also takes the form of Smokey. We have seen Smokey make appearances as other people such as Alex and Yemi.
We know that the reason Ilana dragged around the coffin containing Locke’s dead body at first was because she wanted people to see who they were up against given that FLocke/MIB can no longer take on any other appearance. (It seems like we should get back to the meaning(s) of this statement before the show’s end. It feels kind of like a “rule” of sorts.)
I just can’t shake the idea that MIB was something like the first candidate, and he made some sort of deal with Jacob (maybe not necessarily the Jacob that we know) similar to the deal between Jacob and Richard. If that is the case, it would seem possible that somewhere along the line Jacob has done to MIB what MIB has done to John Locke.
If this was easy to figure out or explain, I don’t think I would bring it up, as usually only the writers can make anything make sense…usually. Since I can’t understand it and readily acknowledge that there are a couple of significant pieces missing (how/why/then what is Jacob?), it makes it that much more intriguing as an actual theory.
I’m sure we could look past this line as another manipulation, given that MIB’s instruction to Richard on how to kill the Devil were exactly the same as Dogen’s instructions to Sayid. Yet I think the writers added this line about how there is a “stolen body and humanity” situation in the middle of these other familiar statements (to us viewers) to be purposeful.
Ultimately we know that MIB has been the one using different forms and appearing as various people, but the fact that MIB revealed that his body was stolen and points it back to Jacob seems pretty important.
(Wish I could have posted this sooner after Ab Aeterno…oh well. It still seems relevant in the long run somehow.)
The bottle-wine-cork metaphor was just one of the great parts of Ab Aeterno. I loved the scene of the bottle being smashed open, a loophole of sorts, to get the wine out.
If the cork is the island, the wine is “evil” and it is contained in the bottle so it doesn’t spread. If the island is the cork that keeps it from spreading, then what does the bottle represent?
In my previous post on Water/Ash=Life/Death, a few of us contemplated the purpose of the water encircling the island. I’m not suggesting that water is the bottle.
My thought is that people are the bottle, and more importantly, the people that have been brought to the island.
If what Flocke (and in the past, MIB/Smokey) has done up until this point is ultimately destroy/kill people, he is in a way, destroying the bottle. Especially on his quest for a loophole.
At this point with the candidates, it gets tricky because he can’t kill them…but he can “break” them. If you look at the way that he manipulates people, cutting right to their weaknesses, and then exploiting it/them to do what he wants, it is a way of ‘breaking’ their will. Sayid and Claire are not functioning on their own accord at this point, and it is obvious he is strategically maneuvering with all of his conversations with Kate, Sawyer, Ben… and we’ll probably see soon enough a second try with Richard.
Back to the bottle…if people (and especially candidates) are represented by the bottle, it fits with how Dogen explained that everyone has good and evil in them. Even the subjectivity of “what is good and evil?” (as played out perfectly in Richard’s backstory) fits with this, too. A bottle contains the contents but is not defined by or ‘at one with’ its contents. I also think it ties together people’s connection to the island, as the bottle and cork would not be complete without each other. A cork without a bottle is pretty useless, as is a bottle without a cork.
Anyway, I have yet to re-watch Ab Aeterno, and it really is most deserving of a second/third viewing before going much further on the implications of the other parts of Jacob/MIB/Richard conversations. This one just made sense the first time around.
“Have you ever had an enemy? Someone that you needed to hate? Very powerful, isn’t it? Claire was devastated without Aaron. She needed something to… something to keep her going. So, I gave her something to hate. And then… when you told her the truth… all those feelings, all that anger that she’d been holding on to for so long… it had to go somewhere.”
This was Flocke’s “explanation” to Kate about why Claire attacked her. Keep in mind he found her in a moment of distress, sitting alone in the trees…in other words, “At some point in your life, James (Kate), probably when you were young and miserable and vulnerable. He came to you, he manipulated you, pulled your strings like you were a puppet. And as a result, choices you thought were made, were never really choices at all. He was pushing you, James (Kate). Pushing you.. “ Sorry, couldn’t resist quoting him again.
Anyway, this conversation with Kate seemed as if Flocke wasn’t simply explaining Claire’s behavior. It was more like he was explaining Kate’s past behavior to Kate, as in her motivation for killing Wayne. And as we know, her running ultimately is what got her to the island.
I’m not proposing much here other than the idea that for as much as we have known to be Jacob’s ‘off-island’ influence and interactions with the candidates prior to their island time, I also think that we have one more reason to believe that MIB participated in shaping their ‘destinies’ as well. I don’t yet think it’s as black and white as the Sideways timeline is MIB-controlled and the 815-crash timeline is Jacob-controlled. I don’t think that the ‘candidates’ are limited to being Jacob’s candidates, either…I think Flocke might have said that as half-truth. After all, Flocke contradicted himself in explanations about the island needing a protector (or not) to Sawyer and Ben. To Sawyer, a candidate without a line through his name, the island is just an island that doesn’t need anything. To Ben, he said the island still needs a protector.
Flocke’s ‘power’ (or manipulation or influence, whatever you want to call it) is obviously bigger than simply an ‘infection’ that turns you into an apathetic killing-machine like Sayid. It is interesting how his offers of hope (Sayid’s lost love restored, Claire reunited with Aaron), safety/protection (the Others), power (Ben), freedom (Sawyer) are juxtaposed with the methods of bringing those things about: with fear, hate and death.
Sorry, rambling there…back to Kate. I found it interesting that we didn’t see Kate take Flocke’s hand after this little talk. Perhaps we are supposed to think that at this point she is like Ben from the week before…there is still an opportunity for her to choose which ‘side’ she will fall on. He is working on the recruiting, but there isn’t evidence of a commitment yet.
So Flocke was persistent with Kate. He followed up by telling her about his own mommy-issues. Yes, I think this was for us to see that we will soon be getting MIB’s backstory, and ultimately that it is correlated to Jacob’s, too.
LOCKE: I know what you’re feeling, Kate. I know what you’re going through.
KATE: And how do you know that?
LOCKE: Because… my mother was crazy. Long time ago, before I… looked like this… I had a mother, just like everyone. She was a very disturbed woman. And, as a result of that, I had some growing pains. Problems that I’m still trying to work my way through. Problems that could have been avoided had things been different.
KATE: Why are you telling me this?
LOCKE: Because now Aaron has a crazy mother too.
Here’s what I take from that:
1) We’re going to learn a bit of MIB’s family history and why he has some of the “problems” he’s still “working his way through.” (I love that totally ambiguous admission that he’s working through it in all his current scheming and interactions.)
2a) The half-sibling relationship with Christian-Jack-Claire (+Aaron) could be the foreshadowing of the relationship between MIB and Jacob.
2b) Remember discussions last year about how Kate and Jack’s little pre-316 overnighter could have produced a little Jack2 in Kate? Hmmm….interesting to think of what could become of Jack’s offspring and Claire’s offspring. Maybe it will go there, and maybe not.
3) I ultimately think MIB wants Kate to think that Aaron could become like him (“Evil Incarnate”/Smoke Monster) with ‘growing pains’ to work through (partially by taking over the appearance of a dead man). Will this deter Kate from trying to save Claire? (If Claire is somehow partially dead, is that even possible?) Or will Kate see this to be reason enough to leave Claire if the chance presents itself? Or will the person that Kate ultimately sacrifices herself for be Claire because somehow that will work to redeem/break the cycle in motion with crazy parents and messed up children? (Back in my “Kate’s Destiny” theory, I proposed that Kate might have to sacrifice herself to save Sawyer and/or Jack.)
The Sideways timeline is taking us back to Kate for a reason, because we already saw her influence Claire and Aaron staying together in that timeline early on this season (mirroring her goal on island). Now it goes to the bigger picture and whether or not her “running away” issues will be resolved…I never thought I would compare Kate with Ben, but it looks as if the Sideways choices she will face are going to be much like what happened in/with Dr. Linus. If Ben Linus can refuse Flocke’s offers (the first one so far!) then what will Kate do?
At this point in the show, I think some of the revelations we seek will be found in the imagery and use of objects and symbols more than straight out verbal answers. I think we’ll have plenty of those, but in my continued appreciation for the writers/producers attention to details that go beyond the verbal clues, here is what I have been thinking about. No straight out theories, just general observations…
I was reading a newspaper the other day and an article about Ash Wednesday caught me eye. Not because I grew up Catholic, but because of the word “Ash” and how that is a modern mystery in my Lost-obsessed mind. Have we talked about this here yet?
From my recollection of the importance and use of ash in the Catholic church, ash was used as a symbolic marking on the foreheads of believers who celebrate Lent, the season preceding Easter Sunday. Believers would wear the ash as a symbol of their guilt, sins and ultimately, their repentance. I can get back to the Lent/Easter thing later, but I keep coming back to the purpose (and source) of ash. In another post of mine I talked about how I think that the vial that Richard showed young Locke (“Cabin Fever”) is ash and I am pondering how/why ash keeps a Smoke Monster away, especially considering that Ash and Smoke are both by-products of fire. So far we have seen ash serve as protection. How do protection and repentance connect? Both of those things represent LIFE. If you follow the meaning of repentance in the Catholic church’s use of ash, repentance is connected with life, i.e., you repent from your sins and you gain renewed life. “The wages of sin are death…”-type of life. The protection from Smokey with the ash has obviously been that your physical life is preserved (albeit momentarily for many at this point.)
There are many other images or meanings behind ash – “ashes to ashes, dust to dust” prayer at funerals, the cremation process, even ash trees. Just throwing that stuff into the mix for consideration because ultimately, my mind keeps going to images of life and death. My thought is that ash is something that has dual meanings – sometimes life, sometimes death.
After “What Kate Does” I made a few comments here and there that the water was bugging me. Yes, the healing fountain thing was murky, but we kept seeing plenty of other images of water. (Examples: filling up canteens, Sawyer threw the engagement ring into the water, Jack’s reflection in the water.) I was intrigued. My first thought was that Sayid’s ‘infection’ came via the water that was meant to give life. I didn’t have any logical clue as to how a Smoke Monster creation can also travel via the water, but all the intentional images of water seemed important. Still, to see how the life-giving/life-saving water has now changed to something else is obviously something we’ve noticed.
After thinking more about the ash and realizing it is an image of duality, we now have also seen water as an image of duality. Sometimes life giving, sometimes life taking. (Charlie. Sayid. Dogen…)
The connection of water and death/life that I am realizing to be most important at this point is the actual water that makes the island an island. I am convinced that we will eventually learn about what the island is. But first, we have to recognize that the water has been what has kept EVERYONE trapped for the duration of this show. For Jack, the ocean that kept him isolated on that island for Seasons 1-4 was like a kind of hell for him. To go really obvious here, didn’t Flocke/”Evil Incarnate” tell Sawyer he was trapped and just wanted “to get the hell off this island” and never look back. (Funny how much that sound like Jack.)
Anyway, my point is this…
We have seen ash used as a ring of protection around the cabin. A ring of ash was apparently surrounding the Temple keeping Locke out. But the ultimate “ring” we have seen keeping people “trapped” is the water surrounding the island. Not to forget that the fact that it is an island, a land mass surrounded by water, has made it inaccessible (or protected) for Widmore or others hoping to find it. We can’t miss the fact that the water surrounding it is what contributes to its powers in one way or another.
So the duality of these images of ash and water and their connections to life and death reminds me of one of the main themes of duality on the show. Chief has a great post worth reading on “what defines good/evil?” Seriously, there is good stuff there. Read it. That post had me thinking again on how we really can’t define who represents what exactly.
Perhaps the battle isn’t necessarily between “Good” and “Evil” at this point. Perhaps the struggle is between “Life” and “Death”… Jacob represents life and MIB death. Neither is good, neither is bad. Both are necessary. It fits into the theme of reincarnation, it fits with themes of redemption. From a quick recollection of actions/behaviors, it fits with Jacob’s attributed “healings” and Smokey’s killing rampages. It fits what Sayid has become (always has been) and it fits the conversation on the beach from MIB, “Do you have any idea how badly I wanna kill you?” line. I know it could seem overly simple. I’m not proposing it to be an ultimate answer of any kind. But it does put a new spin on the unanswerable “good” vs. “bad” dilemma.
The best thing it fits in with though is the possibility of “resurrection” entering the picture. (Keeping in mind that the belief in Christ’s resurrection power is directly tied into the ashes used on Ash Wednesday.) For some of us who think that we haven’t seen the end of the old and very dead John Locke, it could be one of the ultimate final acts in this struggle.
“The Lighthouse” was rich, and it felt like they were telling us we should all go stand in front of a mirror (or water) and stare for awhile to process everything we saw. The word “reflection” instantly takes on multiple meanings after this episode.
We’ve referenced how events in the two timelines we have been witnessing this season have mirrored each other in many ways…some events have happened just like we’ve seen before (the missing coffin, the lost knives, Jack CPR’ing Charlie, etc.) and some events are obviously quite different, yet familiar. In each episode so far a character has stared into a mirror in the Sideways timeline and now we have an entire episode strung together with scenes of Jack physically looking at his reflection somehow and ultimately culminating with him thrashing the mirrors of the lighthouse.
— WHAT JACK DOES —
Watching this episode was like watching “What Kate Does” in some ways. Yes, all you “What Kate Does” haters can go ahead and disagree…oh well, whatever. 🙂
Once again, what one Lostie is searching for (trying to do) in one timeline occurs in the other. Lets just quickly remember that “broken” Jack is on island with alcoholic tendencies, an ‘I can fix everything’ mentality (even though it is slowly eroding) and a past/present haunted by his “You don’t have what it takes” father and their messed up relationship. (Oh yeah, and his mirror bashing was good old reactive Jack at his “best.”) Sideways Jack foregoes the drink offer from his mom, says “I don’t know mom, there’s nothing we can do but wait for the information” (SERIOUSLY, is this a Jack Shephard line???) and ultimately spends the whole Sideways episode reconciling and moving forward in his own parent-son relationship, letting go of how his dad screwed him up and making the best of it (even undoing it in a way) with his own son.
Just like Kate found Claire and urged her to keep Aaron in “WKD”, Sideways Jack has redeemed himself in some of the most profound ways he has needed to but hasn’t in lost-island Jack. And yes, the image of his childhood home in the lighthouse mirror showed us/him how this guy is still so hung up on the brokenness that started there. Again, I think to fully process where they are leading us with Jack and his role involves more reflecting for all of us. But it’s still interesting to repeatedly see these central characters coming to resolve the issues that have been plaguing their past but it’s part of Sideways timeline/universe/thing instead. Which brings up…
— INTERTWINED BUT PARALLEL TIMELINES —
SO about those “mirrored” timelines. I know some people (including myself) have referenced the overlap that is now looking more and more like a “bleeding through” or deja vu type of remembering (or in Jack’s case “forgetting”) between the two timelines. How this all could work is interesting to talk about but I’m not necessarily going to go there here. (AES has some good posts/comments about how there are certain overlaps such as Christian’s missing coffin/body that is integral to the connection between the storylines. Read those.)
There was something that bugged me about “The Substitute” that only got more intriguing after watching “The Lighthouse” but I could be totally and completely missing something everyone else is seeing. (Too many unintentional puns in this show!)
It actually all began last season in “The Incident” when Sun, Frank and Christian meet up in the Dharma processing office. At that point, we knew that things were ‘off’ on the island, because it felt like it they were in Dharmaville and not “New Otherton.” Perhaps it’s just a simple, “the Others never used THAT particular room” or something and they were cool with leaving out Dharma stuff and this picture of the new recruits of Kate, Jack and Hurley. But seriously, no…that just doesn’t make sense to me.
So it would seem like thatDharmaville was from a time/place where the Purge never happened.
Now to “The Substitute” scene where Sawyer goes back to his place with Juliet and gets the engagement ring. Was there any indication given that his house had been occupied by the Others and 30+ years of new residents in there had passed? Perhaps he was too grieved or drunk to care…or maybe not. Maybe it was his place, and just like in the scene with Sun & Frank, it was still Dharmaville. If so, and the purge never happened, this fits in the Sideways timeline since we see “Mr. Linus” teaching at the school Locke is substitute teaching at…but how does this fit in the island’s timeline?
One last scene to consider. It’s back to the dang coffin. We saw Jack go to the caves and see his father’s smashed coffin. (He’s got serious issues with smashing things when he can’t find the person he thinks will give him answers/peace/clarity, no?) Anyway, since we saw the caves, Shannon’s inhaler, Adam & Eve, we see the island as it was in the 815-crashes timeline.
It appears as if the effects or events in the Sideways timeline are somehow actually bleeding into the island timeline where the “present” Losties are in the non-crash timeline, rather than only vice versa.
— “HE WAS PRETENDING TO BE DEAD” —
We’ve been told “Dead is Dead” yet two lines were thrown out as bait to reconsider the process and place of death on the island:
– Claire’s line about Aldo “pretending” to be dead was slightly funny and slightly disturbing coming out of her mouth.
– Hurley’s line to Jack about Jacob: “He’s kind of dead.”
No answers there obviously, but sure seems like reminders for us to define things loosely.
— PANOPTICON —
Someone referenced the Lighthouse and its mirrors being like a panopticon. Do a quick wiki search and see that the panopticon was a “type of prison building designed by…Jeremy Bentham.” At first glance it just seems like another nice Lost type of reference thing to do. But then it made me think that perhaps Jack destroying it was very much a part of what Jacob hoped he would do.
Ready for the s-t-r-e-t-c-h of an idea? Maybe that lighthouse, mirrors and such were not Jacob’s but in fact related to MIB, so the destruction of it serves an important purpose. At first it seemed to make sense that Jacob would have a (somehow) secret lighthouse, a typical object helpful for directing or bringing people to the island. That seems like Jacob, since he brings people there and MIB seems to want the opposite. But a panopticon is like a prison, and the whole imprisonment thing seems to be correlated to MIB… and, after all, MIB’s altar-altar ego recently was “Jeremy Bentham.”
So yes, maybe it was just for Jack to see a bit more into himself, his purpose, the Shephard family importance and his connection to the island. But maybe not.
I’ve never researched something for this stinkin’ show as much as I did for this ridiculously long post. My sincere apologies on the length, but I just couldn’t cut out the transcripts.
In my opinion, Kate is one of the biggest remaining mysteries on the show. There HAS to be a connection between “What Kate Does” and why it preceded “The Substitute.” There is no way the writers would unintentionally order the episodes and clues within them, no matter what we viewers felt like after watching them. Kate’s name and number not appearing on the wall was an essential “missing” piece of “The Substitute” clues. A few logical options as to why:
1) Smocke/Nemesis didn’t show Sawyer as to manipulate Sawyer’s emotional response to the questions. Lets see… it would seem that “At some point in your life, James, probably when you were young and miserable and vulnerable. He came to you, he manipulated you, pulled your strings like you were a puppet. And as a result, choices you thought were made, were never really choices at all. He was pushing you, James. Pushing you…” So, perhaps “he” (Nemesis) simply thought he could keep Sawyer from thinking about Kate at that point and get Sawyer to follow him.
2) Kate’s never been a candidate despite the fact that we saw an interaction with her and Jacob when she was going to steal the lunch box that would eventually become her time capsule.
3) Kate has a different role in the sides and therefore is factored into a different part of Jacob’s equation. Kate is a variable in a totally new and significant way.
I’m going with option #3. (The manipulation by Smocke in #1 is evident no matter what.)
So the quick answer is that Kate is the variable and she will have some ultimate power to lead and nurture the actions of the remaining Losties (or “Candidates” now) and prove to be a reconciling force between the sides that are shaping up. Sawyer vs. Jack and possibly Jin vs. Sun at the very least. (After all, Claire is now the last one we see with Jin and she is ‘claimed’ for the other side, according to Dogen.) So if you want to be done reading now, go ahead and move on.
However, to me this quick answer doesn’t do justice to the mystery that she has been for five seasons. I went to the transcripts of all the Kate-centric shows for refreshers, and pulled a few scenes out that really struck me as important.
(From “What Kate Did”)
In the backseat of the cop car Mars says,
MARSHAL: It’s a long drive back to the arraignment, you comfy? [He laughs.] Why now?
MARSHAL: Nice, corn fed farm girl like yourself — no history of violence, straight A’s, no record, couple of speeding tickets… I just got to wonder, why’d you kill him now? [Kate doesn’t respond.] Oh, right, yeah, don’t tell me. You wouldn’t want to incriminate yourself, not after you were so smart planning it. That jury back in Iowa sure ain’t going to get hung up on pre-meditation. And a gas leak, come on, it’s — it’s amateur hour from top to bottom.
KATE: Sounds like you’ve got it all figured out.
MARSHAL: I do have you all figured out.
KATE: You don’t know anything about me.
MARSHAL: White trash mom divorces dad, starts up with some guy who’s a drinker. Then he knocks her around a little bit, she marries him, because, you know, that’s what happens. And then this drunk, this Wayne, he moves into your house, and you get to lay there every night and listen to him doing your mom right there in your daddy’s old bedroom. And even that wouldn’t be so bad if he didn’t beat her up all the time. But she loves him. She defends him. If that don’t make a person want to kill somebody I don’t know what does. But the question is now, why now? Why after all these years did you just decide to blow poor Wayne up? He come knocking on your door late at night?
KATE: He never touched me.
[Suddenly there’s a black horse in the road and the car crashes into a pole. The Marshal is knocked out and Kate grabs the keys to the cuffs. He tries to stop her but she kicks him out of the car and starts driving off. She sees the horse standing there looking at her, and then drives off.]
She says, You don’t know a thing about me.
Which reminded me that she has a back-story that we haven’t seen yet. (Which also reminded me of Richard. Hmmm.)
Kate said that her dead love, Tom Brennan knows why she runs and we never really saw it.
YOUNG TOM BRENNAN: You always want to run away, Katie.
YOUNG KATE: Yeah, and you know why.
So apparently Kate had no criminal history prior to blowing up Wayne’s house and at a young age she already had an inclination to run away.
Which made me consider what would make a young child want to run?
Hold that thought while I explain where I come from next. On my last post about what we learned from What Kate Does, I made mention of some soul-type connection between the Sideways timeline characters. Which reminded me of the “Reincarnation” anagram that we saw last season on Ben’s “Canton-Rainier” van. I’m not familiar with how it works, beliefs, the history and therefore implicit clues that could be in this anagram, but I know that “Flash Forwards/aka Hoffs Drawler” was somewhat helpful in our understanding of storytelling devices of seasons past. My point: perhaps I should consider that reincarnation could have a little value to some overall understanding of what is going on.
So I did some limited reading (more like skimming) about reincarnation on good old Wikipedia (as I said, I know very little) and something caught my attention.
Apparently studies have been done on children who had claimed that they had memories of people who were dead as proof that these children were reincarnations of someone else. (Children have been just a bit important on this show…no?)
Which then made me think that perhaps Kate, as a child, had a vision of someone she once was, in another life. And as a kid, that would spook you and perhaps be the very thing that you share with your childhood best friend-turned-sweetheart. Perhaps it was a vision of her as a criminal or someone who had done something awful or was in an awful situation. Would that vision be enough to create this fear and innate need to run that would shape her life?
It has been evident that she is always running away from something, from being caught, and this has been a huge arc to her storyline. It has seemed like she is running away from herself, and maybe that’s exactly what we have seen and will see play out in more ways than one. She has been afraid of who she will become, or to put it another way, she has been afraid of a different version of herself. The poetic part of this season is that we are seeing “a different version of herself” in the non-crash Sideways timeline, but she still has evidence of being a “runner” in that timeline. So we are still missing a crucial part of the story, but maybe some of this explains why she is such a critical variable to Jacob’s equation.
Now take note of this interaction with Sawyer from “What Kate Did”:
KATE: (To Sawyer, who has started channeling the ghost of dead Wayne) “You asked me why I — why I did it. It wasn’t because you drove my father away, or the way you looked at me, or because you beat her. It’s because I hated that you were a part of me — that I would never be good. That I would never have anything good. And every time that I look at Sawyer — every time I feel something for him — I see you, Wayne. It makes me sick.”
(Does this not sound eerily familiar to Dogen’s explanation about Sayid’s infection, and how there is a darkness growing in him…?)
Is it possible that when she confesses to Sawyer that she did it because she didn’t want his (Wayne’s) darkness in her and she would never be good, it’s because a part of her has always been running from who she saw herself to be in a past life? So killing Wayne was a way of making that darkness happen (self-fulfilling prophecy) and it also was a way of her trying to distance herself from what she was afraid she would become. And even more, it is the essence of the “free-will co-existing with destiny tension” theme. She finally does something that actually forces her to run rather than accept what she had become. In one timeline (815 crashes) when she is caught, the black horse appears on the road causing the accident with Mars, which makes it possible for her to escape again. Then she ends up on the island, where she is given ‘tabula rasa’ and confesses why she killed Wayne and she encounters the black horse again. Yet she continues to run. So either she really is “born to run” or we’re missing something. Yet no matter what…we are seeing that Destiny course corrects.
Which brings me to another thought that I can’t shake about Kate and “Destiny”.
We have been giving two memorable lines about Destiny in past seasons.
(From “The Variable”)
ELOISE: Daniel… do you know what destiny means?
ELOISE: Destiny means that, if one has a special gift, then it must be nurtured.
ELOISE: Your gift, Daniel, is your mind–a mind that is meant for science, mathematics. And it’s my… job to keep you on your path.
BEN (from “Cabin Fever”)
BEN: Those things had to happen to me. That was my destiny. But you’ll understand soon enough that there are consequences to being chosen… because, destiny, John, is a fickle bitch.
Which brings us back to Kate. She’s been a bit fickle, no?
Destiny, The Fickle Bitch = Kate
We have seen the back and forth of Kate before. Kate chooses the beach over the caves with Jack. Kate left Jack once while Jack sacrificed himself and stayed with the Others. (“I Do”) Kate stays with Sawyer at “New Otherton” nearly making babies. (“Eggtown”) Then, she went with Jack to leave the island, while Sawyer sacrificed himself to get her off the island by jumping out of the helicopter. Then of course, Kate and Jack post-island didn’t work out because of Jack’s jealousy issues tied back to Kate’s relationship with Sawyer.
A subtly recurring theme that exists within their triangle has to do with sacrifice. We have seen Jack and Sawyer seemingly sacrifice themselves for Kate to survive. By the looks of their relationships currently, the ‘love triangle’ is dissolved. At this point, Kate is free in a certain sense, and it would appear based on her behavior/conversations in “What Kate Does” that she knows that she is free from either of them. Free in one way, yet still indebted to them.
Both men have sacrificed to save her. Both men are now primed to follow opposing sides. Now she is the ultimate variable. She believed her purpose for returning to the island is to find Claire and ensure that Claire raises Aaron, something that we can say has happened as portrayed in the Sideways timeline. After all of this, I don’t think she is ‘resolved’ yet.
I wouldn’t be surprised that instead of Kate CHOOSING Jack or Sawyer, she in fact will have to sacrifice herself for one of them. Beyond Jack and Sawyer, and looking at the remaining Losties on the list, Kate has influence (therefore power) over all of them. She is probably the most trusted non-leader Leader among Sayid, Hurley, and Sun & Jin, which gives her the unique role and ‘special gift’ of being able to nurture them along their paths, similar to how Eloise saw herself.
It will ultimately depend on who she believes and trusts the most, which includes herself (and at risk of sounding simple and/or dramatic) and any version of herself she takes into account. It will truly come down to her choice as the variable, and it will be her ultimate, destined act of redemption.
(From “The Variable”)
DANIEL: I had been spending so much time focused on the constants, I forgot about the variables. Do you know what the variables in these equations are, Jack? Us. We’re the variables. People. We think. We reason. We make choices. We have free will. We can change our destiny.”
I know plenty of people hated last week’s episode. I’m okay being in the minority (which is why I post this in the debate section) but I think that there were at least a few things learned from “What Kate Does” that are worth noting.
The more I think about this episode the more I like it.
1. ASH — SMOKE(Y) — FIRE — Part of the test we saw performed on Sayid involved blowing ash over him. Ash is once again seen as significant as it relates to Smokey. The irony and hopefully staring-us-in-the-face clue is that ash and smoke (the visible form of “the Monster”) are both correlated to fire. Fire is the very place that Jacob ultimately died, beneath the Greek symbols for “The fire pit burns brightly to ash.” Bram carried ash with him and instantly knew to use it as protection when facing Smokey. The Others got out their stash of ash to use as protection against “him” coming. Fire, ash and Smokey = all related, all worth paying attention to. They could have used plenty of other symbols or items that would ward off a Smoke Monster, like water (oh hey dirty fountain water) or trees (which seems to have been important in the past) but we keep seeing the use of ash.
2. HOW IS SAYID HEALED: MIB? JACOB? JACK? — It’s not yet possible to identify exactly how Sayid came back to life, even if he is considered alive-but-infected. On Chief’s post, I threw into the mix the possibility that Jack healed him. Jack is now actually being the most honest and humbled he has been in awhile, if not his entire life. It would be fitting that Doc the healer for the past 5 seasons is finally owning his limitations and inability to control things at the very time that he now can actually heal as he has been destined to heal and lead. (I throw “lead” in there because that little sit-down with Dogen and the talk on leadership was not ‘filler.’) This possibility also fits with the past seasons leading us to believe that Jack is special and his role as leader/healer and “Shepard” bloodline is significant.
3. CLAIRE — Claire is infected and Danielle-esque. There is plenty of conversation on this elsewhere on the site, but it still counts as something we learned.
4. “THE DARKNESS IN HIM” — This isn’t just about Sayid. Sawyer is headed down a dark path of isolation and hopelessness. This is one more significant addition to the storyline of “sides” and whose side he will end up on, as well as the overarching trust issues that we are finally getting to. The Losties divided has never worked out well, and at some point he will have to make series (and character) resolving decisions based on who he trusts and what he does because of it.
5. MORE SYMBOLISM — Obvious use of images (and one previous episode’s statement) that symbolizes being bound to each other: an engagement ring, handcuffs, and from LA X, the line “nice to see you out of those chains.” In Kate removing her handcuffs, is she finally free? (See #6 below.) If anything, to me these were symbols to pay attention to as the theme of trust and sides in point #4. Should we count on Sun & Jin’s wedding ring making an on-screen appearance soon to remind us of these ties and eventual divisions between the Losties? Most likely. And thinking more on that…the fact that Jacob appeared to Sun & Jin at their wedding, where they gave each other their rings and his blessing to them was about their love (unity), it’s quite fitting that Crazy Claire finds Jin of all people. But hey, maybe that was just filler. Just kidding.
6. WHAT KATE DOES — Finally, to Kate and what she DOES. The episode is called what Kate DOES, present tense. She did in one timeline what she is trying to do in the other. (Seems pretty significant to me.) In Sideways timeline (no 815-crash) she accomplishes the very goal that motivated her to go back to the island in the 815-crashes timeline: find Claire in order to reunite Claire with Aaron, as Kate believes that Claire should be raising her son. In the no-crash timeline, she finds Claire (on the street) and in the hospital she offers Claire the advice, “You should keep him.” Which is like another way of saying, “you and your son belong together.” (She could have added, “TRUST ME, I KNOW” if we are to think that the characters have some soul-type connection to their “other” timeline self.) The belonging together type of statement sounds a lot like Kate believes a bit in destiny.
The fact that Kate DID what she is trying to do elsewhere is so critical to our understanding of how the writers are leading us through these two timelines. If we miss these types of overlaps, I tend to think we are missing the bigger picture. All of the past seasons use of Flashbacks and Flashforwards were vital components of how we understood what was happening with the characters, why they were making the choices they were, and they also provided major clues to some of the very things us viewers have been debating and trying to figure out. Whether it is about changing the past, destiny, course correction, or resolving who represents “good” based on the choices that they make — this “new” timeline has to be paid attention to for how these major themes get resolved.
Obviously, everyone who hated this episode can hate it. To me there was plenty to chew on, and ultimately I believe character-centered answers are going to trump obvious ‘island-mystery’ answers whether us viewers like it or not. I think plenty about the island will be answered soon enough, but not at the expense of showing us how significant certain tensions, divisions and resolutions are for the main characters first.
What do you think we will see in the first 30 seconds of “LAX”?
The past two season openers have been fantastic in how they have stepped away from the expected/familiar characters and shown the “other” perspective (with Juliet the day of the crash) and Chang with his skipping record, baby Miles and the DI.
What and/or who do you think we might see in the first 30 seconds tomorrow?
My first/strongest inclination is towards Richard Alpert and a day in his life that we have not yet seen.
I’ve looked through quite a few of the new postings, not all, and used the lovely “Richard” search feature, and have yet to see anyone bring this up yet.
Since we have a long time to unpack and dissect this past season and some of the new revelations or elements of what we are dealing with, I have one seemingly simple question.
Let me give the context first:
(This scene takes place about 11 minutes into the episode, “The Incident, Part 1”)
Locke =”You’ve been staring for the last 10 minutes, Richard, is there something you would like to ask me?”
Richard = “Ben told me that he strangled you.”
Locke =”That is my recollection, yes.”
Richard =”He said he was sure you were dead. He saw your coffin loaded onto that plane that you came back on. How are you alive?”
Locke =”Well, you’ve been on this island much longer than I have Richard, if anyone should have an explanation, I would think it would be you.”
Richard =”Yeah, I have been here a long time, John, and I’ve seen things on this island that I can barely describe, but I’ve never seen someone come back to life.”
Locke =”And I’ve never seen anyone who doesn’t age. It doesn’t mean it can’t happen.”
Richard =”I’m this way because of Jacob and if I had to guess, he’s the reason you’re not in that coffin anymore.”
This scene is pretty interesting to dissect, at this point, without knowing if the “not”-Locke character is actually “in the dark” about some island mysteries or is “playing” Richard, but regardless…Richard gives some pretty significant information, and he does so with a revealing tone, IMO.
When Richard delivers the line, “I’m this way because of Jacob…” did anyone else get the impression that Richard’s ‘state’ of being is not necessarily a positive thing?
If we are to assume that Richard has been ‘granted a gift’ of immortality, or anything like it that would account for not aging, I would put forth the idea that based on how he is talking to “Locke” at that point, that Richard’s ‘state’ could be something other than a ‘blessing’ or something positive to him.
Did anyone else hear his tone and think that he’s not exactly thrilled with whatever “this way” is?
So says a young Ellie circa 1954 to Daniel Faraday when they meet in Jughead (S5, episode 3).
Last weekend, over on Dabs “The Variables” post, I mentioned there have been a few things troubling yet significantly revealing about Daniel. I don’t think his purpose was simply to set up the attempt at disarming the bomb and where we are at with Jack, Sayid, Ellie and Richard.
The first thing that threw me off during ‘The Variable’ was Daniel’s interaction with Chang at the Swan. I think the scene with Chang and Daniel in the elevator/at the Swan that we have now seen twice this season included one version of Daniel time traveling. In the “Variable” version, Daniel checks his journal and says “right on time” when Chang arrives.
Then I remembered this interaction with Daniel and Ellie, and to me, it confirms that his research included him visiting different times.
This ‘You couldn’t stay away” line of Ellie’s to Daniel occurs when, from our perspective and for most of the other Losties, the flashes/skipping had JUST begun.
So if he had been time travelling, he should have some pretty good notes in his journal (like Daniel being his constant, for instance) and various other pieces of ‘helpful’ information.
But this is where it gets tricky following Daniel’s ‘knowledge’ – and why I personally was bothered by Jack’s quickness to pick up where Daniel left off. Daniel told Jack, “did my mother tell you it was your destiny to be here? Bad news, it’s not.”
I’m not saying that Daniel is the most reliable source of well-thought out, rational information. (And I am not going to take this post to expand on what I think about Jack.)
I merely bring this up, because even though Daniel is dead, and Ellie knew she was sending him to his death, at her hands, nonetheless…Daniel serves a pretty significant purpose.
What exactly did he ‘study’ or research to know exact timing of Chang showing up or when the Incident would occur, how did he know the cause, the issues? The more I have thought about this, I think there is a connection between Daniel’s reason for him telling Desmond to find his mother when Daniel went to Des in one of the flashes.
Lets just take note of that little interaction and try to think of a reason why at that point Daniel would tell Des to find Ellie.
From what we have seen, Daniel was a complete wreck prior to him leaving on the freighter to find the island. He was an emotional, mental mess. He wanted to know if Ellie approved of him going to the island. She said yes, it would heal him.
What in the course of that span of time happened – between leaving on the freighter, getting on the freighter, pouring over his journal, etc. – that would make him think that Desmond would need to find Eloise in order to help stop the flashing? He learned something about Ellie’s involvement with the island, he obviously knew she was with the Others by the time he shows up in 1977.
Why is this important now? Especially since we now have the Incident to look forward to, and there are plenty of other conversations to have on this site? Because…
We have a group of people in 2007, led by Ilana and Bram, who are on a mission, with someone having given them instruction. I’m placing my bet on Ellie, if I have to at this point. All the talk about a war coming, etc., has included Ellie’s input and grandiose statements. And we know that Ellie’s knowledge is partially garnered by her experiences with her ‘gifted’ son. This is obviously speculation, but it’s dots that I have connected, and I guess we will see soon enough.
A few other missing pieces of Daniel related storyline only add to my thought that Daniel’s true purpose has either yet to be revealed, or in fact, already was, in support of the idea that Ellie could be behind the Ilana/Bram mission.
Was Hawking’s purpose in sending Daniel to the island simply because she knows it is what was supposed to happen? Was it so that he could tell her to bury the very bomb that he would eventually advise (via his journal/Jack) to detonate?
Or was it to release the gas that could prove to be one of the remaining ‘weapons’ of the war that is about to come in 2007?
If it is that, then it implies that Hawking KNOWS that the attempt to undo the plane crash is futile…that what happened, happened as we all now know it. Jack and Sayid will fail at ‘undoing’ the incident, 815, the freighter, etc. There will actually be more loss…
If his mission was to release/disarm the gas, in the preparation of the war that is to come in 2007, then so far, his story is one of the most tragic, as he was a pawn to his own mother.
I must say, I hope we get to see a few more of his ‘research’ interactions before all is said and done.
Daniel’s death in 1977 got me thinking. I believe Daniel was born to Ellie prior to 1977, and he could have actually been raised early on, off-island (America perhaps) by someone else before Ellie leaves the island. I do not really buy that he was born from 1978 on, which would make him 26 when he got on the freighter in 2004. So that’s where I’m coming from on this…
So, lets say Daniel was born in 1975. From one perspective on ‘time’, if he had a gravestone, it could read 1975-1977. Right? Which would imply to the average person that he was 2 when he died. But we know that he wasn’t. If he was born in 1975, he was 29 when he boarded the freighter. Then he lived another three years from 1974-77, so his body, at time of death, was that of a 32 year old man.
As I thought about this, from a humorous standpoint, I recalled the CT scan that Richard showed Juliet from the S3 episode “Not in Portland” – Juliet says the scan of the uterus looks like a barren woman’s who is in her 70s. Yet Richard tells her it is that of a woman’s who was 26.
Countless theories are out there about fertility issues, role of children, if the Others can have children (and of all children to actually have, ugh, Ethan)…
Perhaps this is one more little nugget to consider and add into the mix of thoughts on the island mysteries.
And finally, since we haven’t talked about them in awhile and it relates to this ‘age’ thing…
If the Others are ‘indigenous’ to the island, and ultimately they live and stay on the island at all times, the implications are either they have ‘progressed’ normally when the island started flashing…so therefore, they have all now made it into 2007, where Ben, Sun, Locke all are. OR, what if just some of them flashed? Someone like Cindy, perhaps. We also know one particular Other who has ‘moved’ along the timeline at various points, good old Juliet. It gets me wondering again about what happens to the Others when the island has ‘skipped’ through time.
For fun, lets say that Juliet was 35 when the island started flashing. She now has spent three years in 1977, which makes her ‘body’ that of a 38 year old. And lets say that the island has some ‘flash’ that realigns the two timelines for the Losties…so some of the “Pasties” get to 2007. But lets say that Juliet doesn’t…and she keeps on aging, right up until 2004, again. She’ll have lived another 30 years, making her body that of a 68 year old woman, but she’d technically be 35 if you just counted it from birth year. The weird thing is that this seems opposite of what we’ve seen with Richard, making it even more interesting to think about.
Lets think about this for a moment. We know that Daniel’s hope was to influence the future enough to prevent the crash of 815. Jack is toying with this idea of ‘changing the future’ and here’s some of the scenarios that seem likely to cross his mind…
Please add your scenarios because this is truly going to be a fun thing to ponder, debate, and weigh out…for us and especially for the 1977 Losties.
So, besides some of the obvious, like Kate going to prison…
Claire – Lives – has Aaron, gives him to couple in LA
Charlie – Lives
Boone – Lives
Shannon – (Ugh) Lives
Locke – Um, alive…still…but paralyzed
Cindy – doesn’t become an Other?
the kids – stay with their mom
Ana Lucia – Lives
Libby – Lives
Michael – Lives, even though he did already live past 815 once before…
And then you have non-815 people (aka “The scenarios to cause confusion”):
Desmond – Hmmmm…stuck on island? Doesn’t reunite with Penny? Therefore, no little Charlie…
Ji-Yeon – who can’t exist because she was conceived on island…
I know that I am missing people, which is why you should add to these scenarios, but I think these are the what Jack could use as motivation, appealing to the idea that 815 lands in LA in 2004 could be for the greater good…
The “how” of course, is a completely different theory…and it starts in my mind with a little something foreshadowed with the Smoke Monster capable of erasing one’s memory…
I would encourage you to check theories and read Dabs’ post “Ilana’s working for…” to get a background as to where this thought comes from. The comments have completely veered off-topic at this point 🙂 … so just scroll through the first half of them and see that the comment discussion with AES, Dabs and Josh is what inspired this line of thinking. AES also has some posts on the Desmond-Widmore connection which includes “Our Mutual Friend…’Oedipus‘” and an older one, “A Penny for your thoughts.” Those are worth reading to consider some of the different scenarios with the Widmore family tie-in to the island.
Here’s what I propose:
Penny is not dead. Desmond was shot by Ben and Penny’s life was threatened by Ben in front of little Charlie. Desmond has motivation for revenge – motivation to get rid of Benjamin Linus and any continued threat he poses to the safety of those he loves. Widmore, although we saw him as a cold on-island leader, has reason too, to want to protect Penny and seek revenge on Ben. His motivation to go after Ben began long before Ben went after Penny – this newest attack will not surprise him. But it will provide the necessary ingredients for a Desmond & Widmore alliance.
This alliance could come about under two possible scenarios…
… Desmond finds Widmore and gives him a lickin’ for the mess he (Widmore) has gotten Des and Penny into. Widmore (with Benipulation-type skills) adds fuel to Des’ fire for wanting to remove the threat of Ben and says something along the lines of “I know how we can ensure that Benjamin Linus never goes after your son or wife again. Help me to find him.” Desmond’s ears are perked, no?
… Widmore finds Desmond, “Thank goodness you’re all alive!” Des gives him a lashing…etc. from scenario listed above.
Either way, Widmore can play to Desmond and offer ‘protection’ if Desmond helps him get rid of Ben. Add to it anything else that Widmore would know of Ben’s plans and the people (Des’ friends) that are now on island, in various times…
How does Widmore know that Desmond can help him? Widmore knows by now that Desmond was on island. Is that enough?
Nope. The remaining key ingredients into this mixture of the Desmond-Widmore alliance comes from:
Daniel Faraday and Eloise Hawking.
Here are the connections:
– Faraday worked for Widmore already.
– Faraday knows of and has ‘used’ Desmond’s special abilities in time ‘past.’ Faraday can communicate with Desmond in ways that could affirm and motivate Des even more now that Desmond would be considering going back to the island.
– Hawking knows that Desmond has a connection and purpose with the island. Hawking and Widmore were on-island before, and no matter where their relationship stands now, are willing to use people to get to that island.
So whether or not Widmore has any people on island now to represent his ’cause’ – it doesn’t necessarily matter. Widmore has Daniel, Hawking and Desmond. And Desmond is the variable that Ben might not necessarily have accounted for in his grand scheme.
Wanna throw one more possible scenario in there? (This is really just for fun…)
If, as AES proposed, little Charlie Widmore-Hume is actually old Charles Widmore, and Penny, Des and little Charlie all go to the island…and somehow arrive lets say, in 1927…then perhaps it’s Des and Penny’s skeletons in the cave. 😉 There, that’s for you AES.
There have been some significant discussions on the roles and connections between Smokey and some of the main characters: Locke, Richard, Ben. For the sake of keeping this short, please just read those to better understand where I am coming from.
Here’s my thought.
I think Richard and Smokey have more of a connection than a simple alliance. Dabs (and others) talk/research/know things about Egyptian history that I do not. It’s worth investigating, but I am going to add another spin to the connection.
In the Christian beliefs, the Holy Trinity is God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit. They are all the same, yet all different in form/beings. However, their purposes are one and the same – to direct people back to God, to reveal God, to worship God.
In explaining the Holy Trinity, the most common metaphor used is water. Water can take various forms, and even within those forms have different or unique purposes: water can be ice, water can be liquid, water can be vapor. But it is all H20, all three are all still water. Form has changed, but not properties or ultimate purpose.
In the discussion on “Alex…maybe Richard…maybe”, we have been talking about WHO does Smokey appear as? In ‘Dead is Dead’ we see Alex speak to Ben on behalf of either Jacob, the island, or both; and then possibly using the manifestation of Smokey. This is where it gets debatable, but I lean towards it being Smokey manifested as Alex. Just as Smokey manifested as Walt and Yemi in past seasons.
So the question is, does Smokey manifest itself as Richard? And even more significant, are Richard and Smokey the same?
Perhaps to look at these characters as part of a kind of ‘Unholy Trinity’ could be another way to explain how it is possible. Smokey is separate, but the same as Richard. Richard is separate in form, but the same as Smokey.
I find this could explain how when Richard walks into Dharmaville and says, “Your sonic fence might keep some things out, but not us…” still holds true that they can be separate beings, but ultimately the same. Just like heat ultimately melts ice, it only melts it to become water. So heat has some affect on water in the ice form the way the sonic fence might limit Smokey in certain cases, but not Richard.
I also think this is why Richard has an ‘ageless’ appearance, he has a more spiritual connection that goes beyond simple human properties.
The biggest thing that got me thinking about this though is the almost synonymous references from Ben and Richard when talking about the island and Jacob. In ‘Dead is Dead’, we see Richard tell younger Charles that Jacob wanted Ben saved, which is why Ben was taken to the temple. Ultimately, how does Richard KNOW this? And again these speaking on each other’s behalf was when ‘Alex’ (Smokey) is telling Ben that the island has chosen Locke…
Over and over, the island is given a ‘will’ by the characters. So who is the third member of this unholy trinity?
And perhaps is Christian like the Biblical angel, Gabriel – the messenger?
I am sure that someone will do a much better job (ahem, Dabs) making a really well written story out of the story we saw in Whatever Happened, Happened. I spent much of the show engrossed/laughing/unnerved by all the talk of past/future/present, etc.
The undercurrent though wasn’t so much about Ben to me. It was the very well timed flashbacks for us to learn about what happened to Kate and Aaron. Roger (who yes, I think is crushing on Kate) made the profound “a boy needs his mother” statement right smack in the middle of the tension of what is going to happen to Ben and who is going to save him…
— Hurley: if Ben dies, we never get back here in the first place…
— Miles: we KNOW he lives so we don’t have to freak out…
— Jack: I’ve already saved him, I’m not going to again….
— Juliet: He’s dying and I know some people who can help him…
— Kate: Forget about Ben, I just left “my” kid with his actual grandmother because I think his mother is alive and I’m going to go get her…therefore, I am highly emotional and Ben’s just a kid who had a rotten childhood…so he’s worth saving, he’s worth taking to Richard…he’s worth “losing his innocence and becoming one of us.”
NOW HOLD ON.
We’ve lost track of Aaron and the Aaron ‘prophecies’ and the Aaron connections to the island and the freakish Claire “don’t you dare bring him back” visit. (Which followed Claire leaving Aaron in the jungle in the middle of the night.)
Something is not right here. The correlations between Aaron/Ben mother issues are paramount to what we saw tonight. Kate CHOOSING FOR BEN to be saved by Richard, was pretty short-sighted despite her actual foresight of what he becomes. (I’m not saying she shouldn’t have…) She doesn’t know what Richard meant by his (hello, alarming?!?) method of helping him. She was only on the island for 100 days, and in that time, pretty well stayed distracted and consumed with hiding her past.
She CHOSE how Ben would be taken care of just like she CHOSE to not only ‘take’ Aaron originally, but then to just give him to Carole! Sure, say that it’s Aaron’s grandmother. BUT, this is Christian’s mistress, this is someone Kate really has NO clue about. Kate’s inability to see past herself has created quite the set of past/current/future circumstances. For Ben? Absolutely. Now, too, for Aaron?
What is Aaron set up for?
Hopefully not the same trip down to the smokey temple…where his innocence will be altered and his memory erased and he is permanently “one of them.” But unfortunately, I’m just not convinced that he’s safe and sound having cookies and milk at grandma’s house.
Geez. Kate, you were right when you said you didn’t really have maternal instincts.
Highbrow, will you PLEASE change your avatar to Miles’ face? Because now, that’s who you are in my head. He was talking and I SWORE it was YOU. Now, either the character that plays Miles is ruined forever…or you are…because you are one and the same.
I guess now you can just hope that Miles doesn’t die this season, right?
I can’t believe I am opening this can…but there have been some things bugging me about all this discussion about alternate/multiple timelines, timeloops, and changing the past. I haven’t been decidedly against alternate timelines, and I also have thought the ‘changing the past’ angle from a storyline perspective could be really fascinating. (Not anything scientific, just fascinating.) I’ve been nearly swayed to think “whatever happened, happened” was a worthy explanation, and therefore anything we are seeing in the technical past accounts for how everything came to be that we have already seen.
BUT. I’m not sold. Here’s your chance to factor in a few of my questions and sell me on the idea.
There are so many good posts with GREAT comments that people are adding to the mix all over the place…explaining the Theory of Compossibility especially, and all the back and forth discussion and solid reasons as to why the past can’t be changed.
Here are a few lingering issues to consider…
First read Dabsi’s “Something Did Change” and plow through the billion comments to consider where I am coming from and why I’m not throwing in the towel on NOT changing the past.
And once again, AES posted another great scenario prompting me to think… (A Penny for Your Thoughts) where Ben kills Penny, motivating Desmond AND Widmore to return to the island.
This reminded me of two things, Desmond and the concept of “resurrection” via Lost.
We can all agree that Desmond is special. We can all agree that Desmond has had the unique (so far) ability to subconsciously time travel a period of years/locations; to ‘receive a new memory’ of an experience that happened in one person’s present (Daniel) but technically Desmond’s past; and to have visions of future circumstances.
None of this has been a waste. To me, the plain old, non-scientific viewer, it would appear that Desmond has experienced multiple timelines; that Desmond can interact with multiple timelines and that Desmond’s visions could be the ‘options’ for the timelines of the future. In one option, Claire boards a helicopter with Aaron. That option didn’t play itself out, it was Sun/Kate onboard with Aaron.
I can hear the arguments now: If I am thinking of what to eat for dinner, I could have chicken or I could have spaghetti. I can picture what both look like, but at some point, the REALITY will be whatever choice I make. So I go with the chicken. Right?
But that’s kind of boring for a television show. Why, wouldn’t it be enticing to think that maybe if I knew that the chicken had been undercooked and upon eating it I would suffer from a nasty case of food poisoning, I would have chosen spaghetti instead…???
Highbrow…I can hear you now. Stick with me.
Okay. So hold that thought, and now track with me on the death and resurrection thing…
I’ve written these words before on this site, but it’s time to say them again: the island is special. So as AES pointed out in his theory, Des would be ever so motivated to get back to the bloody island if he knew that the island had the ability to heal/resurrect his dear Penny.
I have to ask this is in the most dumbed-down way, because once again, I am playing the average viewer part…I’m just not as smart as some of you…
Isn’t it a ‘separate’ timeline in a way if a person who was dead actually comes back to life? I mean, their timeline ended. Christian Shepard died…his timeline existed (example here:) from 1944-2004. He DIED. But, Christian is appearing alive again in 2004. And in 2007, to both Jack and now Sun/Frank. And in whatever the heck year that was that he told Locke to move the wheel. He’s on a DIFFERENT timeline, no? I mean, for all we REALLY know, when Locke found the well, the well that Charlotte directed him to, which to me indicates that it was in a timeperiod that she would have known…then that is Christian existing in a year that he already existed in elsewhere.
So then this brings me to co-existence within a timeline. Again, this feels like another “why not?” kind of clue….John and the temporal-flashing-Losties were existing on the island during a time period that they were actually there physically. Since we are talking about timelines and not paradoxes, how does this not point to the possibility of multiple timelines if we are arranging time (and timelines) around people/objects.
This is where the little I know of David Hume’s theories and a few others make sense to me…that time is not an object itself, it is a point of reference centrally perceived and created by a conscious person. Or something like that. (It’s late.)
So, jump back to Desmond. We know the island isn’t done with him. Which would indicate that knowledge of what events/circumstances to come are ACTUALLY in the realm of being known (by Hawking at the very least). Which means that even though she was attempting to orchestrate getting the O6 back to the island – in a rather desperate, ‘something is coming’ sort of way – it would seem that she actually knows what COULD be coming. If Desmond does what he is ‘supposed’ to do, in whatever year it is that he does it, does she have knowledge of the past, or does she know one of the ‘options’ for the future?
I’m sure I sound like I’m all over the place, but really the dots are there to connect in one way or another. Have at it.
So the big moment was Sayid shooting Ben?
There’s something not quite right with these last couple of “big moments” for me after watching the shows. Is the main question after “He’s Our You”, will Ben live?
Unfortunately, we see that Sayid shoots Ben in the chest. So, Sayid, the BRILLIANT hit man that he was/is, failed to kill him. (Even though numerous times throughout the epi we’re being told that’s what he does best…) Kind of like we saw Sawyer shoot the marshall in the chest rather than the head, so therefore it didn’t kill him…and following this foreshadowed event…Ben will still be alive, and yes, we’ll probably see Juliet help the little guy out. And for those of us who have debated changing the future by changing the past…this argument is like a Chinese game of ping pong. Wonderful fodder…I think it could keep going even after Lost has aired it’s last episode. Did Ben not die because he lives past 1977, as we’ve seen him alive in 2007? Or did Ben not die because it “wasn’t supposed to happen?” Or does Ben die and Highbrow buys me a beer?
Because seriously, this is what we could debate for the next week, at least.
There are some things that seem “settled”… I am under the assumption that little Ben sent the flaming van into the house in order to free up Sayid. We can pretty much agree (right, Highbrow – we agree?) that Ilana was hired by Ben to get Sayid onto 316. And somehow Kate’s reason of doing who-knows-what to Aaron was to come back for Sawyer?…See this is where I start to get a little uneasy.
There are a few more things left open that could be the very things that need more attention than little Ben getting shot.
Amy is concerned about having a Hostile in the village because “the children” could be in danger. So the Others…they have their abducting children thing going in 1977. (Hello…AES????)
Sayid lies to Jin about how he got out. (The relationships between the Losties are unraveling right before our eyes…)
During the old truth serum interrogation, Sayid gives quite a bit of information to Horace and Radzinsky. How can we ignore the implications of that and how that is going to affect what’s coming next? (Which seriously, just has to be The Incident.)
One other thing now. Something else that has been bugging me since last week, and dear Dabsi reminded me in her great Something Did Change post…
In “Namaste” we see Frank and Sun go into the “Building” with Christian. (I’m just calling it that for now since we could even argue about that.)
But if we argue about that, then we fail to discuss the implications of what happened right before Christian appeared to Sun in whatever time (or timeline! 😉 ) he is in…the whispers and what appeared to be Smokey. That wasn’t just to add tension for Sun and Frank, there’s more to it and that’s the of kind stuff I want to hear about on here…