What a tangled web we weave’..Episode7

We learn Ben and the ’06’ have been on the ‘outside world’ for 3 years. In those 3 years, Ben obviously was unable to find a way to get back to ‘the island’. This would indicate, he does not have a close relationship with Ms. Hawking. In fact, they may be at odds, if the truth be known.

Ben also would have little success in getting the ’06’ to agree to return, especially with him. The reason Ben hasn’t found a way to return to ‘the island’, is because the one person who could help him, Eloise Hawking, couldn’t be found. That is, until John Locke/Jeremy Bentham tells him!

Ben was very sincere, albeit his motives may have been anything but, for preventing Locke/Bentham from taking his own life. Ben needed him alive! Once Locke/Bentham tells Ben that Ms. Hawking is in Los Angeles, and could easily be found, Ben kills him!

Ben needs to get back to ‘the island’. If Locke/Bentham is alive, Ben loses that leaverage in convincing Ms. Hawking to allow him to return. With Locke/Bentham dead, he can basically tell Ms. Hawking any lie to convince her, why he must return with the ’06’.

Remember, Ben is very adept and skilled. He always has a plan! Nobody does the ‘Kansas City Shuffle’ better than him! (definition of the Kansas City shuffle: when everyone goes to the right, you go to the left).

Ben quickly jumps into action, and visits Ms. Hawking, to set up the details, while employing methods to ensure the ’06’ can’t refuse to return to ‘the island’ with him. He then shows up at the Funeral Home, where he meets Jack and convinces him why they must return and makes sure Locke/Bentham is put on ice, until they’re ready to leave.

I wonder how Ben took the news from Ms. Hawking when she tells him, Locke/Bentham must also return, as a proxy. He was likely unmoved by this minor detail. Ben knows he can still take care of Locke, back on ‘the island’.

When Walt meets up with Locke/Bentham, Walt tells him about his dream. That he sees Locke/Bentham back on ‘the island’, dressed in a suit, surrounded by people who want to kill him.

Jack, Kate and Hurley are elsewhere on ‘the island’, and Frank Lapidus and Sun have fled the beach for parts unknown. We don’t know where Sayid is, at the moment. He appears to be MIA.

Locke finds himself surrounded by strangers and perhaps enemies, including Ben. He is now in a very vulnerable situation. It’s safe to assume that Illana was contracted by Ben to get Sayid on board #316. Illana may or not be a legitimate law enforcement official. This leaves the mysterious Cesar. Is Cesar, Ben’s plant on the plane, or Charles Widmore’s.

Both Charles Widmore and Benjamin Linus are claiming to be ‘the good guys’. One of them has to be telling the truth, and one of them has to be lying. The one thing which is crystal clear, is both men want and need ‘the losties’ on ‘the island’ to fight whatever battle that is coming. Either way, it is reminiscent of that age old saying: ‘it’s a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive’.

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51 thoughts on “What a tangled web we weave’..Episode7

  1. highbrow, while in essence this may be true, one man has to telling the truth more than the other. That’s what logic dictates!

    It would take away from the entire premise of the show, if one side isn’t representing some ‘ultimate’ good, and the other doesn’t represent the opposite of that!

    Given everything we know and have seen about Lost, this pattern is present throughout the show.

  2. To what degree though. Someone’s truth could be a truth to suit them. That is to say it may be truth because it suits their need. I just think that Ben and Widmore both have their own agenda and some of their “truths” are anything but.

  3. I think Locke is the ‘ultimate good’ and evil, self-serving forces are constantly trying to manipulate him. It doesn’t necessarily have to be Good vs. Evil. It could be Good vs. this evil and that evil. The two evil forces don’t really have to be aligned to both be evil. They could be evil in their own evil kind of way.


  4. Agreed Losthead! Each have their own personal agenda they are fulfilling.

    That does not change what I’ve presented, as I didn’t say who I feel is lying more or lying less. Thus, the title of “What a tangled web we weave”.

    I think it would too soon to ascertain that on the little information we have on Widmore.

    This was not the focus of my post, to determine WHO is lying and/or for what reasons.

    We will see, in the end which man’s lies represent an end truth which serves on the side of good and whose lies represent something less altruistic.

  5. Great thoughts, highbrow! We do get a sense that both Widmore and Ben are somewhat selfish, and have their own agendas.

    I guess one of these men, although both corrupt, may fall on the side of some greater ‘good’.

    Locke, is the only one, at this point we can say does actually represent ‘good’. His motives have been determined to be selfless.

    Love the analogy of evil vs evil vs good.

  6. LostHead, I was hoping to avoid having to go into further speculation, but I do have to agree with you in some regard.

    Christian Sheppard tells Locke, that listening to Ben has gotten him nowhere.

    If, anyone sits on the side of goodness, aside of Locke, in my mind at present, it appears to be Christian. I think we could then apply the same logic to Jacob. Locke is acting in accordance to ‘the island’s wishes.

    This seems to be supported and reinforced by Christian.

    We know both Widmore and Ben are manipulating Locke, for whatever reason.

    Right now, I think I would have to say, if anyone represents ‘the good side’, it is Locke and Christian Sheppard.

    After last nights episode, I am reassessing the good vs evil of both Widmore and Ben.

  7. Right. Locke vs. Ben. Locke vs. Widmore. Ben vs. Widmore. Good vs. Evil. Good vs. Evil. Evil vs. Evil.

    In the end I think Locke will find himself on the island with a bunch of bikini models and Ben and Widmore will serve him drinks on the beach.

  8. I think ‘team islands’ motives, vary upon who their leader is. It may not be necessarily anybody vs anybody. They seem to have the same idea, under Richards beliefs. He knows what they are there for, regardless of anyone elses agenda.
    He speaks of Ben being off task in one episode in an earlier season.
    We saw Richard also show aggression towards Widmore, in the short scene we saw the two together in. When he tells him to stand down, it doesnt seem like its the first time he has had to repeat an order to him.
    Assuming Richard Alpert is a ‘good guy’, it would seem that he is not necessarily ‘looking’ or ‘worried’ about Ben or Charles, while they are off island. He made the conceince effort to go off island to find Locke, why not those two?
    If they were so important, and destined to be the leaders, wouldnt Richard have made some effort to bring them back. He can obviously leave, we have seen it in prior seasons. He doesnt make half the effort to help Ben understand the agenda, as he does Locke. Regardless of WHY Locke seems more important than the other 2 supposed leaders of the island, it only seems to matter right now, that he is more important.
    Bottom line, I think the destiny of the leader of the island should represent more than power or money or bragging rights, as it seems Ben and Widmore are looking for. What should matter, is the fact that the man who was killed by Benjamin Linus has suffered two lifetimes worth of pain, and if religious symbolism plays its role into Lost half as much as science fiction has, we will see John do something miraculous by the end, probably filling the shoes of leader of the island, and his destiny.
    They want us to feel for Locke now, they want us all on the same boat. The people who believed from the beginning in John, and those who jumped on after seeing his torment as Jeremy Bentham…Lets just hope they dont “Kansas City Shuffle” us in the wrong direction.

  9. btw..Ben actually said “no” when asked if he had seen John since he left the island. I thought it was word manipulation, he just flat out lies to Jack..twice. (the other time when Jack asks “i thought you said he didnt come see you”.
    Ben may have meant it in a different way, but Im pretty sure he just says “NO”

  10. Something I want to add, that puts the actual “evil” and “good” titles to the side. Whidmore is much more informed than Ben is. He has cameras positioned to the ‘end of the island’, he was once the leader of the Others (assumng he is telling the truth), he knows EXACTLY where Hawking is around the same time that Ben had no idea what COUNTRY she was in.

    Is he this informed because of experience, or because he is constantly looking for clues to the island? Does his knowledge make him evil? Or does it make him good, seeing as he answers every question Locke asks him while waiting for Abbadon?

  11. I like Team Island! I don’t think that its speculation to think that Ben and Widmore are evil. IMO if you listen to Ben and Widmore, all they talk about is I/me this helps me or I am good etc.. John is always talking about the greater good the island as though it is something greater. So to me their selfishness shows that they are only worried about themselves, and the power of being the leader. I only see bad intentions with those two. Like I said IMO.

  12. AES, Part of the reason why I entitled this post, as I did, is because as you say, we are not in a position to call it one way or the other right now.

    We can only discuss what we have seen, which is deception on both sides.

    For instance, Matthew Abbadon works for Widmore. Abaddon tells Locke to go on the ‘walkabout’ which places him on #815, in the first place.

    If, Widmore is the more evil of the two, why place Locke on the plane?

    I guess, what I am trying to say, is that we have now been exposed to ‘the illusions’, both men are playing.

    If anything, as you say, it definitely places John Locke, as a ‘saviour’ of sorts, doesn’t it?

  13. cappayne, I think both Widmore and Ben are equally well informed!

    They possess the resources, in addition to the right people to carry out their every need.

  14. AES I have thought about that as well. I still am on the fence regarding Widmore. I feel like he could be good. It just seems like he is more concerned with himself more so than anything else. Thats what makes me hesitate to think he has good intentions when it comes to the island.

  15. Dab, great point if Widmore has bad intentions, and knows that flight 815 will make it to the island. Then he knows that by boarding the plane he could essentially be back on the island himself. I think that having said that says a good deal about his intentions. He may not return to the island because he knows he can do better for the island by protecting it.

  16. LostHead, I think that is why we have to approach the whole good vs evil situation with caution.

    We need to sort through all of the repercussions of what we are being shown.

    Right now, we have a ‘tangled web’ of deceit, we need to sort out!

  17. LostHead, Reading and writing theories are important, but it is the discussion that comes from them, which gives us all an opportunity to learn as much as we can from them.

    This site and the members give great perspective.

  18. dabiatchishere, may I ask why you belive Ilana and Cesar are working for either Widmore or Ben?

    I don’t think Cesar knows who Ben is. And Ben probably had something to do with Sayid’s arrest, but I don’t think Ilana was in on it, she was just doing her job – securing a fugitive/criminal. I think of both Cesar and Ilana as the protagonists of this plane-crash/815-all-over-again situation. I reckon someone we haven’t seen yet, who was among the others in the back of the plane (I think you call it “coach”, right? :]) was possibly working for Widmore.

  19. I know that my previous comment had nothing to do with the main thoughts of your theory, but I don’t think I have much to say about good vs. evil, Ben vs. Widmore, that hasn’t been said so far, so I’m just picking at the smaller things.

  20. oompaloompa, great question about Illana and Cesar.

    The last we saw of Sayid, he wanted no part of Ben, and his plan to return to ‘the island’.

    Ben could have either arranged to have Sayid arrested for some past deed, (done at Ben’s bidding) or have had Illana placed in a position to escort Sayid back.

    Ben has many people working for him on the outside world.

    I don’t take Cesar being on the plane as just a coincidence.

    I believe he was placed on that flight. I guess the argument, of who placed him there is up for grabs. Both Ben and Widmore had all of the ’06’ being closely watched.

    As both men are preparing for battle, I would think, it logically could serve either of their purpose to have someone on that plane, to cause ‘interference’ for the other side, at a convenient place in time.

  21. I think Ben placed Caesar as when Caesar says to Locke “You know this man?” maybe he asks because he ALSO knows Ben, being that he was recruited by him, possibly making Caesar want to kill Locke, as orders by Ben, as Walt said that in his dream people wanted to kill him.

  22. All: many things and/or people can be construed as “good or evil”. It may be a relative term in the scheme of Lost? My opinion is we have not seen everyone as of yet? The temple and its significance? Who is there? The other island(s)? There is an awful lot of positioning going on. People such as Widmore, Ben, Julliet, Eloise and Faraday have a lot more knowledge than they are letting on!! They are waiting for something or someone?? Even Locke now looks like the cat that swallowed the canary. He is very at peace even though Walt told him about people wanting to hurt him?

  23. Remember Ben told Locke right before he strangled him to death that he had a man watching Sayid and that is how he found him. Who is this man could it be Ceasar? I mean would ya agree he is already gathering information and weapons and keeping secrets from others. Just like our darling Ben who is getting his beauty sleep at the moment.

    Off the subject did anyone notice that Sayid telss John/Bentham that he was with his wife for NINE months before she died. Just the amount of time to have a baby. It just seemed odd that he was with her for nine months and not six months or a year.

  24. Heres why I do NOT think Widmore or Ben are supposed “good” guys. And I mean aside from the obvious discussion about Ben, and Bens comments about Widmore.
    Their daughters. Both daughters live in some sort of fear of their fathers. Both fathers say its for their daughters protection, or best interests. Both were once leaders, seemingly annoyed Richard, at least a little. They both rely to much on their power and wealth, their desire for control over not just the island, but people.
    John seemed to catch a case of powertripping, around the time of the island being stormed by the freighter people. Something snapped him out of it, whether Ben moving the island, realizing the death and well being of the Losties on island or on the freighter, or something this season. He doesnt have that NEED for control, that the other two posess.
    I know I speak in good terms about Ben sometimes, but damn, he is convincing, when hes not being such a snake.

  25. ali, thanks for your comment. Great observation about Locke. For a man who was killed he is certainly very relaxed and at peace!

    I think Locke sees the ‘bigger picture’.

  26. Another character having a baby? Someday our losties are going to re-populate the world. It could be something of significance, but I don’t see it yet.

  27. One more thing. Did anyone catch the bit about Jack being spoken of as a pillhead and drunk, and Ben stepped up and actually defended Jack saying ” give the guy a break, he’s been through a lot, they all have”, even speaking in defense of the other O6 members?
    Sometimes…I dont know why…he just makes no sense at all. Am I crazy, or is this scene one of the stranger personalities weve seen Ben show?

  28. OT, great pickup on the Sayid/Nadia time frame.

    I wonder if this might come to fruition.

    As for Cesar, he is working for one of the men. Count on that one! He is far to at ease, with all that is going on around him.

  29. I have a question about something that’s bothering me. If Widmore knew Locke was off the island and Ben knew it too, then why did they all say the name Jeremy Bentham because they were being watched? Watched by who? Sayid could say to Hurley ‘I’m breaking you out of here’ but he couldn’t say the name John Locke?

    I’m a bit confused, sorry if this is obvious and I’m missing it.

  30. AES, I agree with your analogy of Ben and Widmore. They both demonstrate they are complete ‘control freaks’.

    I think all of the nonsense Ben fed Locke about his ‘leadership’ went to John’s head, temporarily.

    I guess it would be hard to blame him!

    Also, Ben DOES show mercy to Jack, and the ’06’.

    I believe Ben’s issues are largely with John. As he views John a threat to his leadership.

  31. Could be wrong, But John may have had to use a alias because he was supposedly dead when 815 went down.

    A.E.S. your not crazy, But Ben is driving me there.

  32. OT, that’s exactly why he uses the alias!

    lol Ben is driving us all a little crazy! The guy should pick a team! Good guy or bad guy! What’s it going to be? lol

    He so totally, messes with my mind! But, I love it! lol

  33. Dab: Please keep in mind that both Widmore and Ben feel that they have the best solution to the crisis? Widmore did say that there is a war coming. With whom or between who is the question? Locke is waiting for something? His peace at this time could be just reveling in life?

  34. ali, I would have to believe that is true about Locke. Seeing how he reacted to eating that mango, was telling.

    I am unsure if Ben & Widmore actually believe they have the right solution. It may be much more self-serving than that.

    I do believe each man has convinced himself of that, though!

    With that said, it would be hard to say at this juncture who is telling the truth, without knowing what the war is about.

    If, that war is for power and control of ‘the island’, neither may be right! Who knows. But, we should keep an open mind.

    Another revealing post by AES, does offer an alternative to what the struggle may be about.

    I would encourage people to read it, as I think this may come into play.

  35. i’m also not so sure ben or widmore are clear good or evil. who knows, maybe jacob is manipulating them all? we also don’t know if the natives with richard actually are the good people either. we just have to assume as much for now.

  36. im inclined to believe widmore is a bad guy, just because of how he seemed to be when Locke met him as a young man. He had that evil vibe about him and Richard seemed to have a strained relationship, the writers obviously made him have this attitude.

    Now this could be just that hes passionate and even if he WAS evil he could be a good guy now but i dont think so. This doesnt mean Ben is a good guy. Remember Widmore was banished and we dont really know why.

    What i think is happening is Ben and Widmore are both evil and are trying to rule the island, Locke is their key (key- Locke dont know if there’s something there lol) to ruling the island. Locke appears to be the chosen one and if he sides with either Widmore or Ben it means that they will at least be a big part of the island as well.

    Ben has known this for a while (the jacob cabin incident) and has tested Locke on many occasions, shooting him etc and possibly hoping he didnt succeed, which he did.

  37. whatistime, your points are valid! The only person we do know that is good, is Locke. I believe both men need him, and are using him to further their own cause.

    Ben and Widmore have demonstrated their ruthlessness. No doubt, one of their agendas is the lesser of two evils. But, which one?

    Great analysis!

  38. Thanks Dabs good original post btw definately got me thinking..

    To be honest i think that Ben and Widmore are probably as bad as each other, theyre both a negative effect on the island and not supposed to be in charge that is they fight so hard to keep control of it. Whereas with John the island seems to want him.

    I dont think he needs either of them theyre just both trying to get on the winning team

  39. Thanks, whatistime!

    I think you bring up the most valid point of all, IMO.

    If, Jacob wanted Ben or Widmore, he wouldn’t have replaced them, in favour of John Locke!

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