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Questions for the non-alt’ers out there

I’ve got some questions for the non-alt timeline people, but first I wanted to lay out what evidence I was using to say that an alt timeline is viable.
1. Dan said things are changeable (he has been set up as the time travel expert for a reason)
2. There are two Locke’s (whatever you believe about that, there are two Locke physical bodies) they showed that splitting timelines can make two of something — Chang and his bunnies
3. Things are different on the island since Ajira crashed — Dharmaville is different.
4. The numbers are heard over Ajira’s radio in 2007. — they shouldn’t be playing.
5. The title of episode 1 LAX
6. They haven’t flashed sideways yet, it’s the only way to ‘flash’ differently
7. Eloise Hawking suddenly doesn’t know what happens next, also seems to indicate something is different with the timeline.

So for the non-alt timeline people, I really want to know the answer to some questions that I can answer with an alt timeline from your perspective, based on evidence from the show — everything that happens in season 6 will have already been foreshadowed in some way by now.
1. How are there 2 Locke’s / Locke bodies?
– if he is smokie, how does he stay physical for so long, why is he eating, how does he have a John flashback and how is he on Hydra island with Ben while appearing in DV with Sun and Frank?
– If Locke is MIB shapeshifting (for want of a better word) how does the Jack/Locke storyline get resolved? Why set up this huge competition, angst between them to leave it unresolved?
– If Locke is dead, why did they set him up as a major character only to kill him off in the most undignified, humiliating way?
2. How do the losties get the info they need about the war to be able to actively participate?
3. How do the writers spend 6 episodes resolving the need to get Jack etc… into 2007? (that’s the narrative pattern that they follow)
4. Why have things on the island changed?

I really want answers to this as I myself can’t answer them all without an alt timeline of some sort, I’m really hoping those of you who are adamant there won’t be one can shed some light on why you are thinking like this.
Thanks

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Tas

27 thoughts on “Questions for the non-alt’ers out there

  1. Hi Tas,

    In response to your statements.

    1. Dan also said Whatever Happened, Happened.

    2. Smokey takes control of bodies or at least manifests as bodies.

    3. How is Dharmaville different? It hasn’t been inhabited for 3 years. Could you please explain how it’s different?

    4. Someone could have started the transimission between 2004-2007.

    5. LAX? What does this prove? Episode titles aren’t always what they seem.

    6. Flash sideways? Is that something that is definate? If so, that is kindof spoilerish.

    7. Eloise doesn’t know what happens next because she only knew what was going to happen up until the point she sent the O6 back. She’d shot Daniel in 1977 and met with the O6 in 1977. After that point the only reference she had for what happens next is Daniels book. As Daniel died in 1977 there were no entries for after that point. That’s why she doesn’t know what happens next.

  2. Hey Tas! I’m with you. I wasn’t at dharmaville but even watching through the tv I could tell there was something different about it when sun and frank were there. And not just decay either. From the writers point of view I think sun and frank were among other things being used as a narrative device to show evidence of this flux you speak of.

  3. when are Sun and Frank in DV with smokie?

    Locke and Ben arrive later, and then Ben goes down to the water hole.

    When did we see smokie before this, i just re-watched this episode and did not see anything like that. We see Christian – it has never been said that Christian is smokie.

  4. Hello again. I was going to answer the questions in the post but didn’t have time to earlier, but now I do.

    “1. How are there 2 Locke’s / Locke bodies?”
    I believe either Smokey has taken the form of Locke, or that Flocke is a time-travelling Locke. Given that he died before he had the chance to do anymore time-travelling I’m going to go with him being Smokey.

    Just because we see him eat something doesn’t mean he cannot be Smokey. If smokey has the ability to turn himself into people, I’m sure he can master up the illusion that he’s eating something?

    I’m not sure what you mean about Smokey having a John flash back? Are you saying that if he is Smokey, he was Smokey when Ben killed him? *confused*

    “2. How do the losties get the info they need about the war to be able to actively participate?”

    Do they need info? Surely if they return to the present they will be made aware of the war then. Also, if there is an alt, how would they get their info about a war then?

    “3. How do the writers spend 6 episodes resolving the need to get Jack etc… into 2007? (that’s the narrative pattern that they follow)”

    How do you know that there’ll be 6 episodes explaining how Jack and co. get to 2007? From my POV, the flash of white light and Jacob’s “they’re coming” means that Jack and co. will be back in 2007 in the first episode.

    “4. Why have things on the island changed?”

    Apart from your statement that DV has changed (which I don’t see) what else has changed? When Locke was taking The Others on their lets-find-jacob-mission they stopped at the 815ers old camp, and apart from it being abandonned, it looked the same. Sun even found Charlie’s ring in Aaron’s crib. If they were in an alt. timeline, why would the camp and Charlie’s ring/Aaron’s crib be there?

  5. 1. Yes, Dan said things are changeable. But Eloise also seems to be an expert on these things, and when she was talking to Widmore outside the hospital, she said, “Don’t you talk to me about sacrifice! I just put my son on a boat to send him to that island even though I knew…” This would imply that she knew that she would shoot and kill Dan, and thus she knew that he and Jack and co. would come looking for her and Jughead. So it would seem that either Dan was wrong about things being able to change, or the bomb was not a “big enough stone” to change time.

    2. I believe that Nemesis was locked up in the cabin for a long period of time (until Hurley broke the ring of ash) and that HE is the one taking on Locke’s appearance, not Smokey. And we know he has the ability to eat since he said “I just ate” when we first met him. We have not previously been shown him taking on anyone’s form, and so we don’t know how it works. Smokey is different, they are not one and the same… As for Locke being dead, the writers have been saying since season 1 that “dead” is a relative term on the island. If I am correct and the island has special qualities regarding the relationship between the living and the dead, then it is all together possible that a dead Locke can still play a part.
    Plus, we haven’t been in the temple yet, if the dead can appear/affect things during times of distress for the living OUTSIDE of the temple, perhaps IN the temple they have even more power. After all it is the most special place on the island. So in short, yes Locke is dead, but his part is not over.

    3. There are plenty of ways to get the info. And frankly I don’t see how flash-sideways will give them the info you are talking about either. If they only see their own, alt lives, then how will they know anything more than what they already know? As for an explanation from my perspective though… I don’t believe that Claire is dead, same goes for Michael. I think somehow Christian has both of them being kept safe, and the three of them will give the remaining Losties all the info they need, perhaps Cindy and the kids will be involved too, as the writers have promised that they will make a return.

    4. That isn’t the previous plot structure exactly. In previous seasons the “first act” of the season is showing change… it is too big of an assumption to say that that change that will be shown is Jack and co. getting to ’07. You can’t possibly know what the customary, “first act” change will be. Maybe the change is simply them finding Claire, Michael, the temple, and getting the info that they need, as you say.

    5. The title of LA X (remember, there is a space, don’t know what it means, but it means something), in my opinion the narrative tool is going to be group flashbacks of a sort. I think we will see the connections between all of the people in the show throughout the last season… that being said, wouldn’t it be just as likely that LA X could imply something like this, (Jacob is waiting at LAX for 815 to land. When it doesn’t land he smiles, knowing that the ’77 Losties did their job and detonated Jughead, causing the incident. We also see the families and friends of the Losties waiting for them and getting angry/worried when the plane doesn’t show.) I’m not saying that IS what the title implies or what we’ll see, but it is a possible explanation for the title without using an alt.

    6. Like I said, they have done flashback and flashforwards for singular people, but they have not done group flashbacks or flashforwards (except in the series finales of seasons 1 and 5). Also, we have not seen how these events effect their family, friends, and outside world in general. Maybe we will be seeing those effects. What does Claire’s mom do with Aaron and the information that Claire is alive? What do Hurley’s parents do with the truth he told them, especially when his plane crashes again? Do they tell everyone the truth that he told them? Do they get on a plane to try to find him? Do we find out more about Sawyer’s daughter? A lot of these things could be shown either through an alt timeline or some other form of narrative, they don’t necessarily imply either…

    7. Like Trinity said, Eloise doesn’t know the future. She could have known about Ajira 316, but that is as far as her information would go. 2008 is her present time, she can’t possibly know the future.

    8. There are only two changes that alt timeline people continuously refer to. The numbers being heard on 316, and the changes in Dharma-ville (which do exist, but the changes are minimal, don’t believe me? Watch an episode with Dharma-ville in ’04, then watch “Namaste” and instead of counting how many things are different, count how many things are the same) The changes in Dharma-ville consist of one sign hanging above the entrance to the rec room, a missing glass of oj by the Risk board, and a few boarded up windows… that’s it.
    I can’t explain these minimal changes, and I can’t explain the numbers (but seeing as we don’t know what the numbers mean, the reasons for them playing could be infinite, and they should not be used to point to any one theory as rock hard proof). However, I have confidence in the idea that the writers will be able to explain away these small and minimal changes… After all, the amount of things that are the same far outweigh he amount of things that are different.
    Keep in mind, in season two, we couldn’t explain why there was a random wire on the beach, we couldn’t explain why the button needed to be pushed, and we couldn’t explain why there was a Dharma van in the middle of the jungle, we couldn’t explain why the others seemed so obsessed with children or pregnant women for a long time. There have been so many things like these changes in Dharma-ville and the numbers playing that we have not been able to explain, that the fact is they could point to anything, and to put them forward as solid proof of one theory is a huge assumption to make.

  6. It’s blowing my mind that people can’t see that Dharmaville is OBVIOUSLY different than what it should be in the “main” timeline in 2007.

    If you follow the linear time of the main timeline:

    1977: the incident
    1977-1980: the swan is rebuilt with new protocol, orientation film is copyrighted.
    1980-1991: DHARMA is living in Dharmaville doing their thing.
    1992: The purge, the hostiles take over Dharmaville.
    2004: The hostiles, the others, Ben’s group (whatever you want to call them), are still living in Dharmaville.

    2004-2007: We don’t know what happens on the island because the LOSTies travel back in time and aren’t present in 04-07 except for a couple of quick visits via the flashes.

    What we do know is that Dharma did not come back to the island between 2004-2007, take back “Dharmaville” from “The Others”, have a new recruitment day, hang back up the 70’s recruit photos, re-set up Hurley’s risk game, slap Dharma logos on the doors, ect., only to abandon it again in a state of disrepair.

    What happened is that Frank and Sun landed in the ALT 2007 -OR- they landed in a 2007 where the timelines have already merged.

  7. Hi All, this may be too long so I’ll break it into smaller comments.
    The trinity, on WHH, Dan then went away and spent 3 years studying, cane back with you know what, I was wrong, we can change. Coming after WHH, with the extra knowledge narratively trumps WHH.

    Smokie hasn’t sustained a manifestation for any period of time.

    Changes in DV (watch Namaste), in 2007 there are DI logos on many of the doors, the windows are boarded up (in 2004 they just left), the reception room is set up as it was in 1977 when DI were there with the signs and furniture – no indication of others living there in the meantime, risk board in Ben’s house – they chose to show it in a medium close up for quite a long time, why because it is different to the board from 2004. In 2004 they left 1 glass of OJ, 2 mugs, 1 plate around the table. In 2007 there is 1 mug and 2 plates. Subtle but is the way they plant clues all through the show.

    Why would someone start up a transmission that hadn’t been playing for over 16 years, why not do it before 2004?

    Flash sideways isn’t a spoiler, they’ve flashed back and forwards, that only leaves sideways.

    Eloise has had a special ability to in someway know what’s going to happen, not because of Dan’s diary. At the hospitial she is obviously shaken and anxious that for once she doesn’t know what’s coming next – something has changes, is blocking her ability.

    ‘The life and death of Jeremy Bentham’ was a flashback episode from John’s perspective after he was alive on the beach after the Ajira crash. So how does smokie or MIB have this flashback.

    On the war, they need to know what they are going to be fighting over don’t they? or what’s the point?

    From a narrative structure perspective, all of the other seasons spend around 5-7 episodes resloving the last act of the previous season, so it makes sense that the same structure is followed. My big issue with no alt timeline is what do you do in thoses episodes, so many people say the bomb flash gets them bcak to 2007, but that’s just 1 episode if that, others have resloved the whole thing into did it reset or not, Jacob or MIB wins, that finished the season in 1 episode.

  8. To Josh, you can hear smokie chains etc… as Sun and Frank come up the dock and you can see it in the doorway when they walk into the reception room with Christian.

  9. To LBB, Jack and Dan always went to the camp, they always tried to detonate Jughead. The concept of WHH is that when people make the same choices in the same situations, nothing changes – as Dan says, people need to DO differently. Jack was always going to try to reset things, that’s what he does ‘I can fix this!’ He didn’t detonate the bomb. If it went off, Juliet did it and they showed her having a brain snap over Sawyer and Kate. She DID differently to what she would have done another time, that’s the change. Before, they tried but the bomb didn’t go off, so they poured a whole heap of concrete down the hole to protect the bomb sitting at the bottom.

    I’d thought I’d explained how I thought they get the info about the war in my other post, but I hadn’t (must have just thought it to myself). They don’t trust the people who can give them the info at the moment – Widmore, Eloise, Richard, Ben, even Jacob they’ve heard bad things about. They aren’t going to listen to these people because there is too much history. In an alt timeline, these people who have extra, special knowledge would be able to approach the losties without any of that baggage and have a serious talk without the history getting in the way. 7 characters, 7 flashbacks from the new timeline showing what’s different for them, how they find out about the island, war, their incentive for going back. It’s very doable and understandable. On an incentive for going back, reuniting Jin and Sun for one, bringing together the timelines for Claire, Rose, Bernard who are still on the island in the original timeline. That’s all right up Jack’s ally ‘I can fix this!’

    The first act of each season does not stand alone, they all (except for 1) reslove the situation set up in the final act of the previous season. So the final act of season 5 has left us with people in different times, different locations, a war brewing (but not in full swing yet) and the question of did they change anything hanging? So it makes sense that the begining of season 6 deals with bringing people together, addressing the changes, starting the war. All which fits neatly within how I see an alt timeline playing out. The ideas you mention don’t really address what needs to be resloved.

    316 was another episode with group flashbacks, they have done it, it’s not different, that’s not going to blow us out of the water and season 6 if nothing else will do that. I’m expecting 17 hours of OMG!

  10. Hi Tas, thanks for responding to me personally.

    With regards to Daniel. He may have come back to the island with the idea he can change things, but that doesn’t mean he was right. He was adamant that Whatever Happened Happened and then changed his mind. Who’s to know which situation is correct?

    Smokey: who knows how long Smokey can sustain a body for? Just because we’ve only seen it inhabit Yemi for a short time doesn’t mean that’s all it’s capable of.

    Dharmaville – I haven’t spent too much time looking at how many mugs are on the table etc. but I doubt these little things mean anything. They could just be prop errors. Not everyone who watches Lost will take notice of these small changes so I doubt they mean anything.

    There is stil 3 years from 2004-2007 that we haven’t seen. For all we know someone else took to living in Dharmaville while the Losties had vacated it. Whether it be The Others, or someone else we’re unaware of.

    The transmission: I’m not sure why someone would restart it after 2004 but that doesn’t mean someone didn’t. Perhaps when Rousseau took Jack and co. to the tower and turned off her transmission it reset it back to the numbers?

    Flash Sideways: Why does that only leave Flash Sideways? Why not have a Flash Nowhere? Just because the writers have said they’re doing a different way of telling the story this season doesn’t just leave Flash Sideways.

    Eloise only knew what was going to happen because of what was written in Daniels book. She was anxious because once she’d sent the O6 back to the island she didn’t know what happens after that point.

    I don’t think she thinks anything has changed, because if she thought anything could change why would she have sent Daniel back to the island knowing full well that she’d kill him? Wouldn’t she delibaretly NOT send him back?

    Johns Flashback: Just because the flashback was in the episode where John was Flocke/Smokey/whoever, doesn’t mean that he wasn’t himself in the flash back. We saw him leave the island, be recruited by Widmore, try to talk to the O6 and subsequently die.

    The war: Not neccessarily. As Rose said in the S5 finale “there’s always something with you people”. If Jack and co. go back to 2007 and come accross Sun, surely she will fill them in on what’s happening and decide to bring Flocke down. If not Sun, then someone else.

    I’m not against the alt timeline but I just think the reasons given aren’t enough to prove that it will happen.

    Also, before Season 5 at Comic Con they showed a video of Pierre Chang recording a video to presumably send to the future. This never came to fruition.

    I think it’s the same with this seasons Comic Con videos. Just because they show what appears to be an alternate universe doesn’t neccessarily make it so. Why would they give away the story of Season 6 so soon after Season 5 finished?

    I also think that because Jacob said “they’re coming” just as the bomb went off, means that Jack and co. will be flashing back / forward to 2007 to their present day.

  11. @ Trinity – “Episode titles aren’t always what they seem.” That’s right. Like Whatever Happened Happened, and Dead is Dead. ANd they’re titles based on characters’s lines. CHaracters can be wrong.

  12. Ok, I was going to respond to the conversation points but, MY GOD! this just goes on and on! 🙂

    As you guys know I’m pro-(splintered/Desmond flashes)alt, and nothing here changes my view. I just can’t get into a massive conversation now – especially when we’ll start to get answers in… LESS THAN A MONTH! 🙂

  13. I don’t know what to say trinity, you are just going to come up with ‘but what if…’ scenarios for any evidence I give, but I did want to mention a few things.
    Eloise has been set up as someone who knows what’s going to happen, in the Des flashback episode she knows the dude with the red sneakers is going to die, I can’t imaging why Dan would have that in his diary, and his diary isn’t a chronological list of events, it’s his ideas and worings as a physicist. It’s not a dear diary daily journal.

    The tradgey of Eloise is that she knew all along that she kills he son, to try to make that different, she pushes him to become the best physicist he can so that he CAN change it, she knew he may not but that was the point of that episode, to show how she tried to change things with hindsight. She also knows that he’s important to the island and the war so that he needs to be there for the greater good.

    The flashbacks have been set up as people’s rememberings, that’s the structure of them, we see what the character remembers at certain times. They aren’t going to change the rules at this point so to me that is one of the biggest clues that Locke is Locke.

    What is Sun going to tell them, she doesn’t know what is going on. We, and the losties haven’t seen anything which lets us in on the specifics of the war, what they are fighting about or even who is on what side, so Sun can’t tell anyone about it, cos she doesn’t know.

    And I haven’t based any of my evidence from anything outside of the show, nothing else is canon. The comicon stuff may be a hint or a distraction or both, but my belief in an alt timeline as a vaible storytelling option isn’t based on that stuff at all. There’s enough in the show already.

  14. OK, to clear up some points…

    1. What changed Dan’s mind from WHH to “we can change this”? If we don’t know what changed his mind or what he was doing for those three years, then how do we know that Jacob or someone else didn’t show up as a scientist in Ann Arbor, and give Dan the idea that he could change things? Also, if Dan truly believes that he can change things, then why does he squat down in front of a young Charlotte and say, “I tried not to have to tell you this…”

    2. Sorry, I have seen absolutely no evidence that Eloise has an ability. She knew what was going to happen because she had essentially lived through most of it already…

    3. John’s flashback doesn’t mean anything in this respect. Flashbacks and Flashforwards are for the benefit of the audience, not the characters, they don’t actually watch their own flashbacks.

    4.Jack DOES trust Ben, Richard, Eloise, probably not Widmore, but who does trust him? And I wasn’t saying that Jack and co. would get the information they need from them anyway. I’m saying that they will get their info from people like Claire, Christian, and maybe Michael.

    5. I just skimmed through 316 and it was not a group flashback, it focused on Jack, and the entire episode was a flashback, not just small sections. So it was more like “Meet Kevin Johnson”.

    6. There are plenty of things left over from the end of season 5 that need to be resolved without the use of an alt timeline. For instance, Sayid is dying from a bullet wound, Jack can’t save him. What could they do to save Sayid’s life? What did they do when young Ben was shot and Juliet couldn’t save him? Take him to the temple. Also, What to Flocke and Ben do when they come out of the statue and see a confused and angry mob led by Richard and Ilana? If Jack wants to fix things, there is a whole 747 full of confused, injured, and scared people on Hydra island just waiting for him. Jin and Sun still need to get together, Sawyer still needs to deal with the loss of Juliet, they still need to figure out what time they are in, Jack still needs to find out that Locke is apparently “alive” and dead at the same time, and they need to realize and accept that they haven’t changed anything… I’d say that those things give the writers plenty of material from season 5 to resolve in the first act of season 6.

    Now, you didn’t respond to a few of my answers to your original questions, so I’m hoping that means that I at least showed you a semi-plausible, anti-alt explanation for your questions? Let me know if you have any more questions, and I will try to explain my viewpoint better…

    Yojimbo: 24 DAYS!! Can’t wait!

  15. How had Eloise lived through the dude with red sneakers dying before; how has she lived through any of it before?
    Damon and Carlton have said in a podcast that dead characters can’t have flashbacks. So ifLocke is dead and Flocke is not Locke then there couldn’t be a flashback based on Damon and Carltons rules, they’d know I’d think.
    All of the plot points can also be answered through an alf timeline.
    Dans point is that you can, but is difficult to do differently, we alltend to have a default choice.
    Nothing that any of you have said provides any evidence from the show that discounts or disproved anything I’ve brought up, there’s lots of what if… But maybe… But no actual evidence showing otherwise. I wanted something from the show that goes against what I’m thinking, but if you can’t come up with anything that says an alt timeline isn’t viable, my theory still holds up. May not be, but at the moment no one has come up with anything that it sticks on.

  16. as far as the scene with desmond watching the guy with red shoes die… it didn’t seem to me that that entire flashback-like occurrence was actually happening. Desmond had already been there, taken that picture with penny, looked at the ring, and not bought it, that had already happened in his life. this event was something in his head i think, reliving his decision that lead him to the island, and realizing that whatever happened, happened and that he couldn’t change the past. then he woke up naked in the jungle. and she has lived through the rest because she’s old… She first met Jack and co. in 1977, where Dan walked in to her camp, demanding to see her and to be taken to the bomb. She shoots him. Jack and kate are brought out of the bushes by widmore, they tell her that they need the bomb, and she tells them to tell her EVERYTHING. then it cuts to a different scene, the next time we see them, she tells richard and some guy named eric to come with them, they are going to get the bomb. we can pretty safely assume at this point that jack told her about 815, and 316, and that blowing up the bomb could reset it all, and if it works, she won’t have killed her son. The next time she meets Jack and co. is in 2008. she tells them that they need to get on ajira 316 if they want to get back to the island. she sends them on their way, and from that point on, she doesn’t know what happens next… in other words, she has lived through it all before.

    as for locke’s flashback, the entire episode was a “flashback”, it was pure back-story just like “meet kevin johnson” and “316”. as for their rule on dead people not having flashbacks, it makes sense that that would be a rule, but the fact is that they had to show the story of jeremy bentham somehow, and i’m willing to bet that they allowed themselves to bend that rule a bit in this case… plus we don’t know the exact nature of Flocke, i don’t think he is Locke from an alt, but he does seem to have all of Locke’s memories… then again memories are not an ethereal thing, they consist of learned bio-electrical patterns inside the human brain, therefore they are a part of our bodies, quite literally. and if nemesis or something else took on the exact shape and form of Locke’s body, they would have his memories too…

    well yeah, Yojimbo and i already had this conversation, no one can disprove the alt timeline theory, but nothing from the show proves it either… also, you can’t disprove my theory, and i can’t prove it… that’s why they are theories… i though you were just looking for a non-alt explanation of these certain things. I gave you some, those are my explanations, they are still theory, but so are your explanations. I thought, based on your original post that you just wanted to understand the non-alt theories better (not that my theory is the ONLY non-alt one)… sorry if i misunderstood…

  17. Our interpretation of the Des flashback episode are completely different and I disagree on them bending rules, they made them and I think they’ll stick to them.

    I wanted evidence from the show, for eg, if Flocke is smokie, then we’d of been shown smokie ‘being’ another person for an extended period of time, so when? If some other group of people have come to the island an inhabitted DV and put up the old DI signs, what other group is that? If there are two areas to DV, when did they say, let’s go hang out at the reception area down by the dock? These are just some of the explanations that some of you have used, but there’s no evidence to back it up and the writers on Lost foreshadow that stuff, so those answers would have hard evidence. That’s what I wanted to know if you had. Citing things, events, conversations from the show not just what if explanations. That’s just me, for me to reconsider that’s what I need. You guys haven’t come up with soild evidence against an alt, so I stand by my thoughts just as you are all good to stand by yours, I posted this to find out if you had anything more concrete (cos there is concrete evidence for a change that you’ve said you can’t explain away). I do understand where you all are coming from, just don’t agree with how you got there, that’s all. I’ve enjoyed this post, if anything it’s helped to clarify my own ideas as you haven’t been able to give me something to go ‘crap that shoots a hole in my thoughts’. I like to question 😉

  18. glad i could help… still i need to clarify, nemesis (in my opinion) is not smokey, and Flocke is not smokey, smokey is a separate entity from either jacob or nemesis. and flocke is nemesis, who was trapped in the cabin, not smokey. since we’ve never seen nemesis do ANYthing before now, then it is all together possible (again, in my opinion) that HE is the one acting as Flocke. Again, NOT smokey.

    and you know what, i think i’ll take you up on your challenge and see if i can at least give you some questions that you can’t answer… that is if you don’t mind continuing this discussion… anyway, it’s going to take me a bit. so, i’ll post my questions in a bit.

  19. My comments about Smokie weren’t so much directed at you, but it is being used as a flocks argument.
    I love a challenge so fire away.
    AES , but why and how is Des different, his consciousness jumping happened after the hatch explosion, Jughead exploding seems like it could have a similar effect so is it unreasonable to suggest the the losties nearby have a similar consciousness side effect. Dan’s mouse and girlfriend also seemed to mind skip, so the experience isn’t just limited to Des and they set up similar circumstances- electromagnetic radiation goi g crazy, detonate a hydrogen bomb as a solution

  20. Ok, here are a few questions for you…

    1) How do you explain the healing properties of the island, as well as Ben’s tumor and Jack’s appendicitis?

    2) Why did Sawyer hear “It’ll come back around” in the whispers on the island?

    3) Why can Hurley see the dead (even off island) yet no one else can?

    4) Why does Locke 2.0 seem to know everything about the island, and the timing that everything happens, and also have all of the memories of Locke 1.0? If it’s because the timelines have merged, why hasn’t it happened to anyone else, i.e. Sun or Frank?

    5) How did Dan know exactly when everything would happen?

    6) What happens to the characters that were still important, but not on 815, i.e. Miles, Charlotte, Juliet, Dan, Frank, Ben, and Desmond?

    7) How do you explain Ben’s mother appearing outside his bedroom window when he is a kid? We know that Smokey can’t get through the fence, and we know that she died in the ’60’s.

    8)How do you explain Sawyer’s (and Eko’s) “possession” after he is shot and unconscious in the hatch (after the polar bear for Eko)?

    9) If in the merged timeline, the Losties don’t go back in time, what happens to Charlotte’s body in ancient times, and what do the others do with Jughead without Dan to tell them to bury it?

  21. LBB, I’m going to start with the island IS special, I’m not denying that. There is a large thematic connection to the idea of belief and faith, I’m not denying that either. My big picture point is that neither of these thing exclude and alt timeline. The blend of science and fiction has been dome really well on Lost and I don’t think there needs to be a complete science explanation for everything, there will be mysteries – but there will be a sciency feel. Some of your questions I’m not sure what they have to do with the viability or provability of an alt timeline and I’m not sure how my answers could affect your thoughts on the matter, I don’t have really clear answers for all but here we go.

    1) – the healing properties, a science answer – electromagnetic radiation causes cancer (Ben) and is also used to heal cancer. It seems to me that they will use the EM properties of the island to explain this. On Locke, we don’t know in what way he is paralysed to discount the energy as a reason.
    2) whispers, I don’t know, one of the mysteries. I’m expecting a really out there reason for them
    3)Hurley seeing dead people – people do, people see and talk to ghosts all the time in the real world. Miles speaks to them in a different way, some people have an ability to see through the veils of life and death easier than others
    4) Locke’s merged consciousness/memories. They have shown us consciousness, mind jumps in a variety of circumstances, we know from Miles that people’s consciousnesses stay with them after they are dead (how he ‘speaks’ to them). Locke has been exposed to high levels of EM radation, which seems to be a major stimulus for a mind jump. So is it not feasible that when his bodies from both timelines are together (on the beach) there is a mind meld as such, would explain his disorientation as well.
    5) Dan knowing things – Dan knows how time travel works, he went back to a scientific research unit for 3 years in the 1970s, I feel that it’s reasonable to say that he used part of his time to consciousness travel through time (like the mouse)to different times to know what was going to happen to try to stop it all to save Charlotte. He could jump into his future to get important info.
    6) I’m not really sure what you mean by this one, Dan and Charlotte are dead, Juilet I feel is or very much nearly dead. The others will be part of the same alt timeline as the losties, it will affect everyone, those exposed to high levels of EM raditiaon will have consciouness skips (they’ve all been on the island, exposed for a while)
    7) Not sure, but the fence has different levels of on, it may also be off so it is still possible that Ben’s mum is smokie, or it’s just his mind needing a mother desperately, our minds are amazing things.
    8) similar answer to this one, these possessions take place after being in the hatch – near the EM radiation, energy and brains I’m not going to touch.
    9) The losties did go back in time, both timelimes happened. Imagine time is a line drawn horizontally, at 1977 it splits into 2, draw one as an arc above and 1 as an arc below, in 2007 they rejoin. If you have a river flowing to the sea, then someone comes half way along it’s length and diverts the river to a new path for a while, then lets it find it’s way back to it’s original path, the river flowed along both riverbeds, the physical evidence of both riverbeds is still there. That’s why there can be a different DV and the losties beach camp on the island at the same time.

    Hope these make sense for you.

  22. yeah they do, thanks for answering… it occurred to me after i posted these, that our two theories aren’t actually exclusive. there is no reason that they couldn’t both happen. so i guess i can’t really give any rock solid proof for not believing in the alt timeline. so what it comes down to for me is that in the past, the producers have dropped subtle hints and supposedly even gone on message boards and posted theories all to lead the audience astray. then they take the show a direction that no one predicted and no one could have seen coming… i think that’s one of the reasons we all love it so much, because it is so unpredictable…
    still, i can’t see any real reason that your theory isn’t correct, i just don’t think they’ll go that way with it. So again, we’re at a stand still…
    great debate, i had fun, and i’m sure i’ll talk to you some more before the premier…

  23. I think that the arguement for an alternate timeline is right on. The reason why is the answer to the question: how has Dharmaville changed? The answer is simple, you have to look past all of the decay and damage.

    There is a picture on the wall that inclues Jack, Kate, and Hurley (among others). Does it not seem feasable that the people in the Dharma Initiative in the intitial timeline would have recognized them? Namely Ben, but I am sure that everyone else would have been looking through old photos and realized that some of the survivors of 815 were also members of the DI in the 70’s.

    So to conclude, when Sun and the pilot flashback, the timeline has changed because now some of the 815’ers were in pictures of the Dharma Intiative. (and I don’t even want to hear a whisper from ANYONE saying that DI/ the others are keeping it a secret) There is no way that Ben got shot by Sayid and then he doesn’t even blink or skip a beat when he sees him again in the future. 🙂

  24. they WOULD have recognized them from the photo in the dharma building. and they WOULD want to take them hostage on hydra island to study them. and they WOULD know a lot more than the losties, about time travel, etc. for reasons like this.

    have we been watching the same ben linus? manipulative, doesn’t give out information or flinch to give away anything unless he really HAS to? And you think he can’t hold in suprise (even though i don’t think he was surpised, i think he knew about 815 before it landed and who was on board).

    richard knew john locke time travelled, and talked to sawyer and jack in the past who both said they knew locke, and then they land on the same plane as locke to come to the island…and you think the others would be surprised!?

  25. But the people who took the losties to Hydra Island were others, not DI. the only one who could remember is Ben, but they dealt with that by having Richard explain that after taking him to the temple he wouldn’t be the same, would lose his innocence and NOT remember. They have then covered for any eventuallity by taking away Ben’s memory of the events. That then leaves the only person left on the island who mayknow what’s going on to be Richard and he is a riddle, wrapped in an enigma, wrapped in a riddle at the moment – his alliances, intentions, motivations are pretty much up for grabs at the moment. I’m not sure that the not remembering can be used by either side at this point.

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