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Dead is Dead ‘Connections’

While re-watching the episode “Dead is Dead” I noted some connections. Please forgive me in advance for the length, as I included dialogue from the Transcripts to illustrate the point.

When Ben and ‘Fake Locke’ arrive on the dock and proceed to Ben’s former home in ‘Otherville’, so Ben can summon the ‘smoke monster’ and be judged for Alex’ death; as they approach, you see the sign at the Processing Centre dangling and the Children’s Playground and Swings. When Ben enters his former house, he encounters Sun and then Lapidus.

The following conversation transpires: LAPIDUS: What are you doing here? BEN: This used to be my house. I saw a light turned on. What are the two of you doing in here? [Lapidus hands Ben the DHARMA Initiative new recruit group photo from the Processing Center.] SUN: That was taken in 1977. BEN: Are you trying to tell me that your friends were in the DHARMA Initiative? SUN: You don’t know about this? BEN: Of course not. Where did you get this? Who gave this to you? LAPIDUS: We met some crazy old man outside. SUN: He said his name was Christian. He told us to come in here and wait. BEN: Wait for what? SUN: He said if I ever wanted to see my husband again, I had to wait here for John Locke. LAPIDUS: But considering he’s dead, we ain’t holding our breath. BEN: Well, you might want to look outside. [Sun looks out the window and sees John Locke, who waves] We are left to believe that something awfully strange or distinctly different is happening in this scene.

When ‘Fake Locke’ initially finds Ben on Hydra Island, Ben couldn’t have been more shocked and simarily disappointed at the same time to see him alive (relative term). The sheer delight on ‘Fake Locke’s’ face when Ben tells him he came back to ‘the island’ to be judged by the ‘smoke monster’ is reminiscent of a ‘cheshire cat’.

LOCKE: I’ve decided to help you, Ben. BEN: Help me do what? LOCKE: Do what you say you are on your way to do. Be judged. BEN: That’s not something you want to see, John. LOCKE: If everything you’ve done has been in the best interests of the Island… then I’m sure the Monster will understand. Hmm…the best interest of ‘the island’. Has ‘Fake Locke’ just given away his beliefs about Fate vs. Free Will?

The following exchange between Ben and Sun was ‘telling’ and perhaps the writers were also having a good laugh, while providing us with a major clue: [Crackling] BEN: You may want to go inside. SUN: Why? BEN: Because what’s about to come out of that jungle is something I can’t control. [Footsteps approach] and our ‘Fake Locke’ walks right out of the jungle.

LOCKE: Last time we didn’t have to wait this long. BEN: It’s not a train, John. It doesn’t run on a schedule. LOCKE: Well, if it’s not gonna come to us, then… I suppose we’ll have to go to it. BEN: It doesn’t work that way. I only know how to summon it. I don’t know where it actually is. LOCKE: I do. ‘Fake Locke’ then tells Ben that he knows where to find the ‘smoke monster’

What we have witnessed is, a ‘Fake Locke’ who appears to be manipulating a situation with both Ben & Sun. ‘Fake Locke’ has convinced Sun to stay with him, as he says, that he is the only one who can help her find Jin. (You will also recall Christian Shephard telling her the same thing). Hmm….what side is Christian Shephard on?

They proceed to the ‘Temple’ and Ben receives his ‘judgement’ for the death of Alex, and he is instructed to implicity follow Locke’s orders. Sun, Ben & ‘Fake Locke’ then proceed to The Statue when this conversation occurs: LOCKE: You don’t like this, do you? BEN: What? LOCKE: Having to ask questions that you don’t know the answers to, blindly following someone in the hopes that they’ll lead you to whatever it is you’re looking for. BEN: No, John, I don’t like it at all.

What stands out in their exchange is, that the John Locke we all knew and liked was a ‘Man of Faith’, and a man of ‘faith’ follows blindly. Ben, on the other hand has demonstrated himself to be a man who ‘chooses’ his own ‘destiny’. They appear to be in a reversal of roles now.

During one of the earlier ‘flashbacks’ a young Charles Widmore makes a point of telling a young Ben Linus that it was ‘the island’ that saved his life. Some time later when Ben is sent to kill Rousseau; doesn’t and returns to the camp with baby Alex in tow, Charles Widmore is furious. Ben cannot fathom Widmore’s logic and reasoning for wanting an insane woman, and a harmless baby killed and further questions if these are Jacob’s wishes and receives no response.

We eventually get a glimpse of why Charles Widmore appeared to be so callous about that when Ben comes to say farewell before boarding the submarine. This is the last part of their exchange: WIDMORE: And what makes you think you deserve to take what’s mine? BEN: Because I won’t be selfish. Because I’ll sacrifice anything to protect this Island. WIDMORE: You wouldn’t sacrifice Alex. BEN: You’re the one who wanted her dead, Charles, not the Island. WIDMORE: I hope you’re right, Benjamin, because if you aren’t, and it is the Island that wants her dead, she’ll be dead. And one day, you’ll be standing where I’m standing now. You’ll be the one being banished, and then you’ll finally realize that you cannot fight the inevitable. I’ll be seeing you, boy.

Widmore’s statements give some indication of his beliefs which are, that everything is already predetermined when stating that it is what ‘the island’ wants and that ‘choices’ have consequences. To further illustrate where Ben stands, we only need to consider his actions when he goes against Widmore’s orders and saves the life of Rousseau and baby Alex. He demonstrated his own ‘free will’. He does so again, when an almost ‘mirrored’ scenario occurs when he attempts to kill Penelope Widmore. When he sees a young Charlie, and chooses to abandon any further attempt to kill her.

This is Benjamin Linus and he stands on the side of ‘free will’, while Charles Widmore’s words and actions speak about a man who believes that some other power is in control and calling the shots. This is where we learn that Ben, who albeit who has made some poor choices, does not follow blindly, while Charles appears to do exactly the opposite.

I can’t help but be reminded of Jacob’s last words to Ben, before he kills him. Jacob tells Ben that he has a ‘choice’. We know what choice Ben made and wonder if he will be redeemed or punished for this deed. We also know where Jacob, Nemesis, ‘Fake Locke’, Widmore and perhaps even Christain Shephard stand on these issues. However, nothing is really known about Richard, where he stands and who he truly serves. He remains an enigma. We also know little about where ‘the losties’ will eventually end up when it comes to Fate vs. Free Will, with the exception of Jack. Jack used to be a ‘man of science’ but by the end of the S5 finale, he is now speaking as a ‘man of faith’.

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dabiatchishere

~ Contrary to popular misconception, karma has nothing to do with punishment and reward. It exists as part of our holographic universe’s binary or dualistic operating system only to teach us responsibility for our creations—and all things we experience are our creations. ~

75 thoughts on “Dead is Dead ‘Connections’

  1. Thanks, daddyx. I think what I have attempted to outline is, that it wasn’t clear what exactly was at the point of Ben & Widmore’s apparent differences.

    I believe this episode highlighted that Ben’s actions have been something that can be attributed to ‘free will’, while Charles Widmore’s actions seem to be that he is more in tune with ‘the island’ or something else decides by way of ‘fate’.

    Also, that in this episode specifically is, the first time we really get a true glimpse at their opposition and that something has definitely changed. Especially, with Ben and Charles Widmore. I don’t feel I had a clear sense of this previously. Perhaps, others did.

    I feel in terms of the story and the characters, we are going to be discussing the issues of ‘fate vs. free will’ on a whole and which characters represent either side the debate.

    Thanks for your input.

  2. TawaretsAnkh, I think you have interpreted the meaning that I was trying to emphasize in regards to reincarnation and ‘consciousness’.

    I am also happy that you took the same meaning from the interactions as I did, as I think these are key.

    I like what you have to say about Ben’s ‘choice’ and whether this whose best interest it was in. I think many of us are going to see in S6, that while ‘choice’ is one you can make or not, that ‘choice’ does have consequences attached to them.

    The other point will be if, everything is ‘fated’, what importance do ‘choices’ have on any impact on the outcome.

    I am looking forward to figuring out these aspects.

    Thanks for your comment.

  3. Another good point TawretsAnkh. I think many people do get confused when it comes to terms such as ‘good’ and ‘evil’. I don’t see these elements to be so clear cut as people make them out to be.

    I agree with you, that this ‘war’ has every earmark of coming down to determining which part is attributed to Fate and which part is attributed to Free Will and the implications of such.

    I have some thoughts on the other characters based on their actions, but expect this will change in the final season.

    You’re right about Locke. It’s just another side of him. I think the ‘role reversal’ I mentioned in my post, places him and Ben at the centre of this perfectly.

    I didn’t care for Ben’s reversal either. It can all change again, and I expect that it will.

    Thanks again for your input.

  4. Thanks, ilieintheshadowofthestatue. The rules have been something which has eluded me to a large degree.

    I felt that it may have something to do with the sci-fi aspects combined with something else.

  5. TawaretsAnkh, I love what you have to say about the rules of reincarnation. I think this is a very original idea, and one which should be explored further.

    Nice thoughts on that aspect!

  6. TawaretsAnkh, I like how you made the connections with the leaders of ‘the others’. I had not made the connection to reincarnation, though.

    It sounds plausible to me.

    I know you meant Widmore instead of Richard in the Penthouse.

    Just as John’s missing kidney protected him from death, I wonder if we can apply the same meaning as to why Jack was conveniently interrupted during his attempt to throw himself off of the bridge, and why Michael’s gun wouldn’t shoot when he tried to take his life.

  7. I knew it was just a slip, TawretsAnkh. I am inclined to believe what you have to say about Michael, Jack and Christian, because maybe we are seeing who is affected by whose rules. This would indicate all people who are fall under Jacob’s rule, and those who fall under Nemesis’.

    That is a good thought. Thanks on that one.

  8. TawaretsAnkh, we have seen that Nemesis is unable to directly kill Jacob himself. We’ve also seen Ben unable to kill Widmore. Their discussion stated it was against ‘the rules’.

  9. TawaretsAnkh, I agree that it seemed like Christian (MIB?) somehow released Michael on the freigher when he said “you can go now”. I’m not sure I understand how he got out there, though.

  10. TawaretsAnkh, now you’re talking! I think this remains to be seen and where part of the mystery surrounding ‘the rules’ may be better understood.

  11. Now I’m confused. What is really the loop hole? Someone could have fooled Ben (who is not dead) into killing Jacob at any time, right?

  12. Ok, then I wonder why Christian/Flocke dragged Sun along to the statue with the promise that she might get reunited with Jin. Is it in order to have her nearby when the slaughter starts?

  13. TawaretsAnkh, I have devoted some thought to that. I think that I have drawn some conclusions in that regard.

    I’m just waiting to see if they play out. I’d love to hear some thoughts from you on that subject, though.

  14. ilieintheshadowofthestatue, it is unknown exactly why Sun was being held back from meeting up with Jin and the other ‘losties’.

    I suspect we will learn that reason, sometime in the very near future.

  15. TawaretsAnkh, I am wondering if the bodies that Nemesis uses have to be ‘dead’. Sun isn’t, so I am wondering if this might be somebody else.

  16. Dabs, I was more wondering why Christian/Flocke dragged her along to the statue rather then why she didn’t flash to 1977. But I guess these events may have the same reason behind them.

  17. ilieintheshadowofthestatue, we know that Sun didn’t flash off of the plane because of the exact circumstances of Flight #815 being different.

    However, Frank Lapidus returns to Hydra Island after failing to convince Sun to go with him. Christian and Fake Locke had already played the ‘manipulation’ card.

    TawaretsAnkh, I didn’t want to be the one to say ‘sacrifice’. LOL

  18. While I am not completely in agreement, it does make sense to me, TawaretsAnkh. There does have to be a reason, and that could very well be it. I like it.

    I had also wondered if this could have been a ploy of some type to keep her and Jim apart deliberately, because Jin would fight to the death to take himself and Sun off of ‘the island’ and get back to their child on the outside world.

  19. TawaretsAnkh, this is the second time today that I think your thoughts make sense in the sense that they match what we have seen but I don’t find them very compelling story-wise.

  20. Great comment, btw! It really helps me to see your perspective on Sun and the reason why you feel she is currently in 2007. It is quite rational.

    Thanks for sharing that with me.

  21. ilieintheshadowofthestatue, I guess logic never is all that exciting.

    I do feel in terms of how any of these scenarios might play out, there will be much more story and mystery around it, to make it appealing to everyone.

  22. What a great surprise to find a new theory/post by you Dabs! 🙂 I really appreciated all that dialogue you quoted about Flocke knowing where the Smoke Monster is and him coming out of the Jungle when Ben was expecting Smokie…by just reading it, that’s some of the most clear indication that FLOCKE is Smokey/MIB both. I don’t know how I missed it while watching originally.

  23. ilieintheshadowofthestatue, the only nagging feeling that I have regarding Sun is, that such an emphasis was placed upon their marriage by Jacob.

    I cannot help but think that there has to be ‘meaning’ to their union.

  24. Thanks jedtiffin! Glad you enjoyed. I knew it was a long read, but really wanted people to be able to make those connections. I just wasn’t certain how well I articulated it.

    I also missed the original time around and I watched it twice.

    Thanks for your input.

  25. I have nothing against logic. If it were possible I would like a 100% scientific explanation to everything on Lost. People jumping in time based on whether they have strong enough bonds to people in their own time doesn’t seem very reasonable to me. I guess I don’t have to tell you that I was quite annoyed with the introduction of the Constant concept. Since TawaretsAnkh’s explanations match what we have seen, they may very well be “true”, but I hope not.

  26. TawaretsAnkh, regardless of the emphasis, I know that scenario was unique and it is still unique that they were seperated for whatever motives.

    I know that this will be made more clear to us in the very near future, but if you want to spill, right now….lol

  27. ilieintheshadowofthestatue, i know what you mean when it comes to certain aspects. I have a huge one that has annoyed me for quite some time.

    It’s the same kind of feeling that you get when you hear fingernails across the chalkboard. Not good! lol

    PS: logic can be very boring, I agree. It’s one of those necessary evils.

  28. Dabs, just to be clear. I have no problem with logic. TawaretsAnkh is being very logical given what we know from Lost. But if TawaretsAnkh is right, then Lost is not logical to me, only absurd.

  29. Good lord Dabs, I saw the coment count jump from 29 to 52 in a span of 15 minutes! Nice job. While reading this the word ‘no’ came to my mind. And what I mean by this is that in the examples from the show you sited Ben essentially says ‘no’; usually to Widmore. He said ‘no’ to Widmore about killing baby Alex and he said ‘no’ to Widmore’s authority by banishing him from the Island. The ability to say ‘no’ is the only freewill that humans have IMO.

  30. Right, look what happened when Ben started saying yes in the final episode of season 5. Things are not looking so good for Ben now…

  31. What Ben said yes to was not so much the killing of Jacob but his anger towards Jacob. At that time Ben did not say ‘no’ to his emotions. A person who can also say ‘no’ to their biological ureges and responses is truly free.

  32. It’s an interesting thought that Ben’s involvement in the killing of Jacob was perhaps not that important.

    If Flocke was actually able to kill Jacob on his own, then Jacob’s words to Ben – that he had a choice – were actually only meant to help Ben stay out of it, i.e. Jacob was not trying to save himself.

    I guess it is still a completely open question why Jacob did not seem to try to defend himself in any way. It’s beginning to seem to me that perhaps we can forget about Ben altogether when trying to understand what happened in the statue, if he was indeed mainly a scapegoat for Flocke.

    After Jacob didn’t seem overly interested in Ben and his decision. Jacob was only friendly enough to try to make Ben understand that he had a chance to stay out of it all.

  33. Achalli, thanks for your comment and reminder about the power of the word ‘no’ when it comes to ‘choice’.

    This is essentially what I am referring to when I say there are consequences for the choices being made.

    I completely believe that we, as viewers may walk away with a different perspective regarding ‘choice’ when Lost comes to an end.

    I am counting on Lost to at least make me more aware in terms of these issues.

    Thanks for your thoughts on this, Achalli.

  34. What a great point, ilieintheshadowofthestatue!

    I am glad you make mention of the reason as to why Jacob just allowed his death to take place, when he obviously forsaw that it would happen.

    One thing we can determine from this is, that he DID anticipate it, and it is part of his overall plan. I know that death isn’t an exact ideal, but in terms of who these two are, I feel that it plays some importance in the overall picture.

    We know Jacob pre-empted Nemesis and that Nemesis only found out too late that Jacob had done that, when he whispered his final words to him. “They’re coming”.

    I feel this may be the reason why, or plays some importance that will help to destroy Nemesis’ plan.

    i can’t wait to find out.

  35. Dabs and Ilieintheshadowofthestatue, Jacob’s sacrafice could be viewed in a similar way to that of Obi Wan Kanobi in Star Wars. He could be removing himself from play in order to give others a better chance and more power to defeat Nemesis.

  36. That is quite true Achalli, and we all want to know what impact those overall ‘choices’ make, if any in the long run.

    I’m certain before Lost concludes, there will be many conversations on this subject.

  37. I’m almost feeling sorry for Nemesis. He only got to feel like a winner for a few seconds. 😉

    PS. You can call me Ilie. After all, that’s what I do best! 😉

  38. hahaha lol ilie. I did realize the implications of shortening your name, so I am glad you gave me permission to use it, as I didn’t wish to offend.

  39. Tardy to the party…

    Wow…A lot of things going on in that episode…

    I really like your thoughts on Widmore…I love a good Chuck theory…

    I have had a lot of trouble placing him into the equation. I love your thoughts of him believing in destiny. Lost throws so many clues at us…when he spoke to Locke and told him about returning to the island, and being on the right side…I think he is aware of the way things are headed.
    I truly was having trouble determining what side he stood on for that particular subject, which helps define who his character really is.

    You also touched on Christian…Dabs, I have racked my brain, and had trouble connecting him with one side.
    I would love none other than to hear any other thoughts on his character, or whatever is controlling/posessing/mirroring it on the island…

    Great thoughts here. I have to stay away from Dharmaville, lol.

    One thing that throws EVERYTHING out of theequation is Fake Lockes reaction to hearing that Ben has to adhere to his words…he honestly and truly seems generally suprised to me…I know that he could very well be playing suprised…he is playing Locke…but its just his reaction…

    “Wait a minute, you mean you have to do anything I say?”
    “Yes”
    “Guess it wont beso difficult after all…”
    “What”
    “Convincing you to kill Jacob”

    Sorry if not exact, going off of memory. If I am wrong about what they say please let me know.
    But it just thew me when I saw it, and I have watched it again, and still cant help but notice.

    …but everything makes sense if they are on the same side…MIB…Man in Black…Black smoke monster…black vs white…
    …but that one supid scene just kills me…

    Great theory again Dabsi…I am interested for more on these subjects. These are not things that the average bear notices, but their subtle yet indistinguishable hints seem so obvious after your dissection…

    Yeah…I want more…nicely done.

  40. Excellent post….

    Has anyone mentioned that Ben’s free-will attitude through the years might be what kept the island (fate-driven) from healing his tumor when the island healed everyone else, like John’s leg?

    (Sorry, didn’t feel like reading EVERY comment.)

  41. …..and yeah A.E.S., I know that scene really well. It’s as if Flocke was oblivious to everything.

    I heard Terry O’Quinn didn’t know he was playing Flocke during the filming though, so it might just be a mystery because of good acting (if that makes sense)

  42. Chief…I thought that it was the other way around…OQuinn was supposed to know everything this season…the man in charge…the leader to follow…

    That is why its so strange to me…

  43. I think Chief is right.

    I watched a video interview with Terry O’Quinn and Michael Emerson recently and O’Quinn said that he was told to play John Locke but with an attitude, a confidence.

    He didn’t know he wasn’t John Locke until they filmed him coming out of the box.

  44. A.E.S….I wish I could tell you where I heard that (or saw that). It might have been on an interview around the July/August timeframe.

    Since I can’t concretely pinpoint it, I can’t say I’m right and you’re wrong. Which sucks, cause I’m dying to say that to someone.

  45. Hi Chiefof16, I don’t think anyone has made mention of Ben’s tumour, why he got it in the first place, and also why ‘the island’ didn’t magically heal him.

    The only thoughts that I have on this is, if ‘the island’ is in support of everything being pre-determined, I’m thinking this could be the very reason why Ben may have got it in the first place. He was out of ‘sync’ with the wishes of ‘the island’ or something along those lines.

    I also agree with you on Terry O’Quinn not knowing in advance that he was playing Nemesis. It could answer his reactions.

    Thanks for your input.

  46. Hi AES, ‘tardy to the party’ is okay by me! You also raise some other interesting points.

    In terms of Charles, I noted the conversation and exchange he has with Ms. Hawking in another episode. It’s the one where they are outside of the Hospital where Desmond is recovering from Ben’s gunshot.

    Ms. Hawking states that she sent Daniel back to ‘the island’ fully knowing what the consequences that awaited him. I take that to possibly mean, that she is also a believer in Fate.

    In saying that, we could also choose to believe that she is looking for a way for Daniel to promote the necessary ‘change’ that will set things in motion. Right now, I think her position is a difficult one to call. I’d love to know your thoughts on her!

    Regarding Christian Shephard and his beliefs. I have no idea on which side he stands. I only know that I am personally reluctant to place him on either side of Fate or Free Will at this time. I think the answer to that mystery might surprise us.

    Thanks for your insights and comments AES.

  47. Dabs, Great post and conversation…

    Cheifof16, “Has anyone mentioned that Ben’s free-will attitude through the years might be what kept the island (fate-driven) from healing his tumor when the island healed everyone else, like John’s leg?”
    Excellent comment and I couldn’t agree with you more…

    So, for argument sake lets say the island is deterministic/fate driven. From what I’ve read on timetravel and how it weighs heavily in determinism and free will, it would be possible to go back in time and move along your same fate driven path, and change that path by using the power of free will. Free will is the only thing that has the power to “override” previous “choice points” along that path where choice/free will was not an option at the time of the apparent choice. Meaning, if you were manipulated into making a choice that you would not have made otherwise, it would allow for change and create a new path… But the kicker is, you can not change the beginning or the end of the path. The path will always begin and end the same… Seems eerily similar to Jacob’s and Nemesis’s conversation… So, technically Jacob would be correct in saying everything before the end is progress. Free will is the progress…

    Now say, you were to go back again, and try to change one of these choice points that was of your own free will, well… it won’t let you. So, in this case whatever happened will always happen.

    So, Ben gets a tumor on his spine and a spinal surgeon falls from the sky… Even though Ben seemed to manipulate the situation that led to Jack operating on him and saving his life… Was Jack really manipulated or was it of Jack’s choice/free will that saved Ben? I think the most significant statement made at that time was Ben telling Jack, “I want you to want to save me.” The choice had to be of Jack’s own free will. So, if ever there was a chance of this event being overridden, what ever happened will always happen… Ben’s life would be saved.

    Now if the island really wanted Ben dead, there will be another choice point in time that would allow for the possibility of this happening. Enter Sayid… But, Kate’s free will intervened.

    Dab’s again great post… Sorry for the long-winded comment but you and everyone else got the wheels turning in my head… And, when that happens, LOOK OUT!

  48. Elsewhere, absolutely brilliant comment and insights! Your thoughts pertaining to Free Will vs. Fate are precisely in line with my own thoughts and views on the subject.

    I thought I might be all alone in terms of how I view it, and now I see that I am not. yes……

    I can’t wait until we get into Season 6, where the discussions will lead us into this area. And, I especially look forward to discussing this subject with you!

    Thanks again for your insights, thoughts and comment. It totally ‘rocks’!

  49. I feared that you and others would not understand the point that I was making… Dabs, I’m so glad you got it! And, thank you for the compliments. This has been my thought now for a while, but I never really could put it out there in words until reading this post… So, thank you and to everyone else for the inspiration… I will definitely be looking forward to discussing this with you as the last season unfolds.

    Oh, and Chiefof16… Sorry for the typo in your name. I really do know how to spell Chief. lol!

  50. Elsewhere,

    I didn’t even notice. If the problem persists though, you can just call me Will, LOL.

    I just read your earlier comment. That’s pretty deep. Looks like you’ve considered this for quite some time. Ben’s line “I want you to want to do it.” Has a controlling tone as well as a free-will belief to it. Jack was manipulated into doing the surgery by some force other than Ben I believe. Ben has a future purpose right? Bringing people, or maybe Locke, back to the island. He’s not like Charlie, Charlie was needing to die because the “universe” needed it to happen. Ben was going to get saved regardless because the “universe” had more for Ben to accomplish.

    That’s my view for now anyway. This show can make you contradict yourself on an hourly basis.

  51. Will, 😉 With the case of Charlie; Desmond’s free will intervened and prevented Charlie from dying on numerous occasions. Desmond was not manipulated into saving Charlie on any of these occasions… Taking what we’ve learned from Desmond’s flashbacks with Mrs. Hawking, Desmond believed that Charlie was fated to die… But, Desmond’s use of free will is what saved Charlie… There was No manipuation involved in Desmond’s choice…Therefor if these events were to be repeated, they will not change. Desmond will always save Charlie…

    So, even though Charlie was supposed to die, before ever going down in the Looking Glass… He did not, until a task was completed. And, as we saw it, it was Charlie who made the choice to die… I believe after that task was completed there was no more reason for Charlie to die… He died because he believed he was supposed to because of Desmond… So, keeping with my thoughts, Charlie’s death in the Looking Glass can be considered a manipulation by Desmond… A choice to die that Charlie would not have made otherwise.

    And we all know that if Charlie were to leave the Looking Glass alive, it would have caused a completely different outcome, especially for Claire and Aaron…

    So, Desmond will always save Charlie because Desmond executed free will… But, because Charlie was manipulated into dying in the Looking Glass his death has the power to be changed!

    TaweretsAnkh, Yes, Jack used Ben as a bargaining chip… But, he did end up saving his life… Kate and Sawyer were already in the clear and it was only then that Jack made the choice to save him… He was not manipulated into saving him or killing him as Juliet wanted him to do… The choice to save Ben was of Jack’s own free will…

    I’m having a problem keeping these comments short…

  52. Whoa Elsewhere, I never thought that much about Charlie’s/Desmond’s situation. Your comments are long, but I’m learning too much from them to care about the length. So worry not.

  53. Elsewhere, I am happy that people are making those same connections and you are welcome to give explanation any time.

    I also enjoyed your perspective and reasoning on Charlie and Desmond too. Right on the money! Both Desmond and Charlie effectively figured out what they needed to, in order to make the proper choice for themselves. How those choices will play out in the big picture, I am uncertain of.

    I almost feel as that ‘the writers’ are going to show viewers the positive/negative side of ‘choice’.

    Thanks again all.

    Chiefof16, we learn by way of the discussions generated in a post, so I am glad you’re getting into the comments.

  54. TawaretsAnkh, I see your point. I think Desmond’s importance should not be overlooked in the sense that he epitomized ‘free choice’.

    In Desmond’s flash, Ms. Hawking convinces Desmond not to buy the ring. She tells Desmond that pushing the button is the only important thing that Desmond will ever do. Basically, Ms. Hawking is stating that this is Desmond’s ‘fate’ or ‘destiny’ in life.

    However, what was unique about Desmond is, that he found a way to ‘change’ or ‘delay’ fate/destiny in the case of Charlie. Desmond knows that he cannot prevent the inevitable death of Charlie, but by exercising his own ‘free will’ and making choices surrounding how and when Charlie’s death would be best served, he proceeds with his plan with TLG. The ‘choice’ that Desmond makes has immediate benefit.

    Having said that, we do have to consider all aspects of what may be predetermined, and what the consequences are to the choices that he made, in terms of the ‘big’ picture in the end to know whose best interest this really served.

    It will be interesting to see how this will be portrayed by the writers. They have done a fairly good job ‘messing’ with our minds over these issues and have a full season to keep us thinking about it.

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