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Two timelines are incongruent

This has been bugging me a bit with the new timeline. It is 2004, in the days just after 815 lands in LA. If we assume that the timelines split in 1977 with the bomb blast and that they have been running alongside each other since, how can the ‘bleeding’ the memories of the people in the new timeline be of events further in the future. For example, Charlie wasn’t in love with Claire on the flight, that didn’t happen until later, so how does he ‘remember’ it on the plane? Des didn’t see Charlie die until much later, but the memories come to him only a few days after 815 lands. The same thing with Hurley and Libby. So my question is has anyone else noticed this and what do you think is going on, are the timelines misaligned, is this how the new 815ers can ‘come back’ to the island and be in 2007 while they are in 2004 and why aren’t they running parallel to each other????

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Tas

25 thoughts on “Two timelines are incongruent

  1. Seriously though… That is a very good point.

    Perhaps 2004 is the moment of first contact for many of the Losties with the main source of electromagnetic energy (energies?)- the island.

    It does not explain Desmond’s presence on the flight or Widmore’s and Eloise’s survival or Ben’s… When were they evacuated? Or Chang’s presence in LA.

    In fact any person whom we see on the island in 1977 at the time the bomb went off except the six candidates and other time travellers (Miles and Kate) should not be there.

    Young Ben and Roger, Widmore, Eloise and Chang, Most of the Dharma community except those who were evacuated…

    Most especially Richard who was last seen taking a pregnant Eloise away just before the shootout.

  2. Yes, it is apparent that the flashsideways is not a branched time line where the branch occurs at the time of the incident.
    The bleeding effect is a magical thing anyway, so the fact that the times don’t match up aren’t a big deal.
    You get the feeling that one of the reveals in the last 250 minutes will be that the flashsideways is in fact something different.

  3. Tas, I get what you are saying. Lately I tend to think what we are seeing is a Lost-version of reincarnation, so that’s why it works.

    There is a very significant line we have yet to hear resolved, and it was Richard’s statement to Sun from “Follow The Leader” last season:

    “I remember meeting all these people…I remember watching them all die.” (Referring to Jin, Jack, Hurley, Kate, & Sawyer.)

    So the same Richard that is now hanging out with Jack and Hurley apparently watched them die in ’77. And it hasn’t been addressed at all…but I think it could be part of the final equation somehow. (I’m not placing bets or anything though.)

    We are missing something really significant still in the Island and Sideways timeline, but I think that the Sideways utilizes a type of reincarnation that only the writers can really explain well.

    You are right that Claire and Charlie haven’t fallen in love yet if you were to put the dates next to each other. But that Sideways timeline exists because of what already happened on the island – or in another life – for Charlie, Daniel, and Libby. So the bleeding thru is making sense to me because they are dead.

    I am very very curious as to how this will work out with Jack, Sawyer, Kate, Sun & Jin… but I think that some of them might die and therefore that could trigger the reconnection or unity between their “two lives” and memories of the island.

    I don’t know if that makes much sense, but it seems like an option to me.

  4. I had an argument I posted that postulated the timelines are actually separate iterations of time… To clarify, we all kind of thought the bomb exploding meant a fork in time which is depicted as a straight line..resulting in a Y shape.. In reality, the FSW has it’s own past prior to 1977..for instance, this would explain why Jack had his appendix removed in the FSW as a child, but not in the childhood preceding the island’s current timeline. I think the iterations are more like two separate lines parallel to each other that don’t intersect…(at least, not in the Y way we were all expecting)…

    So in response to your post, I think that the FSW is the “second” iteration of time..meaning that everyone experienced the island/others/bomb as the “first” line..and then they are (now in the FSW) living the second line… They can remember things six months ahead from the other timeline (i.e. your Charlie example) because the ENTIRE timeline already happened..so really they are remembering their (relative) past.. Hope that made sense..lol..

  5. Interesting thoughts everyone, thanks. Still trying to pull it all together in a way that works or me. I don’t like the iteration idea, just because I want it to be a complete story and not the possibility that after we finish watching it could go aound again. On the new timeline’s past before 1977, Jack’s appendix could have been done after that, the times are close but it seems as though it was different before 77, don’t know why cos it shouldn’t be.
    Andre7, I think we’ll find out that the bomb didn’t casue the island sinking so those people being off island would be ok. Just my thoughts. And I’m afraid that the answer may just be because. 😉

  6. ar420316: The idea is sort of like that, but not exactly. I thought string theory sort of states there is a universe for every possibility or combination of possibilities, etc.. these universes should be parallel though..as in 2007 occurs at the same time across all the universes. (at least this is my idiotic understanding, i’m hardly a metaphysicist) In Lost’s case, I think that one entire universe timeline happened BEFORE, and now the OTHER possibility universe is happening afterwards (the FSW)…because one already happened..the Losties are able to remember any memory from any point on the other timeline.. But yes, I guess the concept is multiverse-ish?

    Tas: Could you explain what you said: “On the new timeline’s past before 1977, Jack’s appendix could have been done after that, the times are close but it seems as though it was different before 77, don’t know why cos it shouldn’t be.” I didn’t quite catch your meaning..

  7. Because we don’t know Jack’s date of birth, but if he is mid 30s, and he had his appendix out when he was 7 or 8. If that happened in 77 or 78, that would make Jack around 35 in 2004. So it is reasonable that the appendix operation happened after 1977. Things that aren’t quite adding up for me are Ben and his Dad, their relationship was pretty much screwed before the losties ever got to the 70s, Sayid shot him before the bomb went off, and split the timelines. So if the timelines split at that point, don’t they share the same timeline from before that point? But if that was so, Ben still got shot by Sayid, was still taken and healed at the temple and still hated his Dad, who hated him. So it doesn’t seem to be just a split timeline, the new timeline even if it was created from the bomb, seems to maybe have a different past from even before 1977. I’m stuggling to get my head around that, and am not explaining myself properly cos I can’t quite get it straight yet. They are showing us stuff that has us question the obvious way the timelines should have split and it must be for a reason, they could have all this ‘remembering’ happen 6 months after 815 lands and there wouldn’t be an issue with the non parallelness, so why doesn’t it match up?

  8. Hi Tas, I am comprehending what we are currently seeing by comparing it to what I think is a smilarish storyline that occurred in another show that I hold dear to my heart (Buffy the Vampire Slayer, *waits for people to roll their eyes*).

    In a season of Buffy, we see that some monks had fabricated memories in the minds of Buffy and everyone associated with her in order to think that she had lived a life with a younger sister (the monks had transformed a magical key that they were protecting into a human form, specifically as Buffy’s sister, as they knew it would have the ultimate protection in her care).

    Buffy and her family/friends felt, lived, breathed, and loved her little sister as if they had known her for 16 years. In fact, it had only been a few days.

    Buffy did a magic revealing spell for something else that was going on in Buffyworld – and inadvertently found out that her sister “did not actually exist” while looking at family photos and seeing her sister fading in and out (“Back to the Future” styles).

    So to compare my long Buffy rant to Lost, I think what we are seeing is:

    2004
    815 crashed

    1977
    Bomb detonated by 815ers

    2007
    815ers still stuck on island
    815ers in alternate, ‘fabricated’ timeline

    I feel more confident using the term ‘fabricated’ now – after seeing Faraday’s journal in Happily Ever After and seeing the reference to “Imaginary time”.

    So essentially, the reason why Jack had an appendix scar – is because he had his appendix removed in 2004 in the original timeline. His mother telling him it happened as a child – if i’m using my Buffy analogy – is a fabricated memory of his mother’s believing it really did happen when he was a child. But really, it happened 3 years prior.

    I think in this alt timeline, the physical scars remain the same, only the memories are fabricated and that’s why they’re slowly starting to awaken eg. Desmond, Charlie, Hurley etc.

    So when it comes down to it, this is essentially what Monini said ie. different iterations of time, and the Losties already remembering stuff because the original timeline has already happened.

    I think the catch here is, that just because the memories are fabricated – doesn’t mean that that aren’t real. Because for those that have not woken yet, eg. Sawyer, Sayid etc, this new life IS real, and I suspect will become the one and ONLY timeline if Team Jacob do not win their war, as stated if they don’t win “people will cease to exist” (in the original timeline).

    Sorry everyone to ramble on about Buffy. Tas, I hope this helps! 🙂

  9. My big concern with the imaginary timeline is that Damon and Carlton said that the two timelines are equal, neither is more real or valid than the other and that wouldn’t make sense if one was just fabricated. Mikhails eye seems to be another example of the two timelines physically blending, yet not in a parallel way. I really hope the end answer has this sorted and explainable cos it’s got me muddled and I have been a two timeliner for quite a while 😉

  10. Ok you can look at it this way, the bomb creates a new parallel timeline, but that timeline, although formed due to the hydrogen bomb, has its own history prior and up to the bomb, in which the bomb never goes off. A little confusing, but let me try to explain…

    In the parallel timeline, the alternate whatever, the losties never crash. They never get on the island, and most importantly, never time travel. Not only do the losties not travel back to the 70’s, but they also never travel back to the 50’s, and a few other unknown time periods. The lack of them being in the past causes the changes that we see in the alternate timeline (as well as causing the island to sink, i had a theory that explained that the bomb prevented the island from sinking, not caused it to sink).

    However, this does not explain your idea of the timeline bleedings being off. I don’t think theyll adress it, but it can be explained by faraday that with the parallel timelines, the bleeding doesn’t have to occur perpendicular to the timelines, only where the attraction between the two is strongest (where love is).

  11. My theory is that the changes to the flashsideways are created not only for the incident, but also by Jacob going back in time and making Losties get to the island. So, I think that FSW are in fact the past before Jacob brought them to the island and MIB managed to escape.

    After that iteration we have in-island iteration where losties will prevent MIB from escaping and someone will be Jacob’s replacement as protector of the island.

    So, the vision from the their island lives in FSW are in fact flashforwards like those Desmond had of Charlie’s death.

    Does it make any sense?

  12. eko-I like your idea that the bleeding over does not have to happen at what we would consider congruent points in time. Also you make a good point our original 815 travelers have made other time interferences not just the bomb going off. Something up for debate, we on the forum refer to the FSW as a continuum or a branching of the original. It is possible that every flash sideways is its own parallel timeline. Yes, we do know they intersect and we see characters that interact but since we see everything from a different characters perspective we can’t assume the norm that everything is linear in a FSW either. Perhaps what we have seen from the flashsideways is a more of a helix style mix of viewpoints all flowing and influencing each other?

  13. I have mentioned this before and will offer it up again: Does anyone really know what year the island is in right now? We are assuming it is 2007, since that is when the plane crashed, but maybe the island had moved to 2004 again after the bomb exploded, which would allow for the bleeding of the timelines…

  14. Ekolocation, I do think they will give the new timeline a complete history , I think. The bleeding through has to be important though, especially with Desmond acting the way he is. He is now actively doing stuff in both timelines with a very clear purpose inmind (in his head anyway). So ithink that means he will bring the timelines or people together so when each of them are will be important, no use bring Locke back into 2004 island cos the actions going on in 2007. Does time move differently in each timeline?

  15. ekolocation: I believe in the same ideas you have about the plane never crashing, therefore the losties never time traveled back which has created a Butterfly effect that accounts for many of the differences we have seen in the FSW. (i.e., Ben and his Dad – Ben would have not been shot; Mikhail’s eye, Jack’s appendix – I still like the theory that it happened to a 7/8 yr. old Jack in 1977 about the time of “the incident”)

    I don’t think there is actually a bleeding of timelines. I believe the Crash Timeline occurred first and the FSW comes afterward. That is why Hugo, Libby, Charlie, Desmond (anyone else) have memories of the Crash Timeline. It is also how we will get explanations to things like the cut on Jack’s neck on the non-crash 815 flight.

    It does seem so far, that only the “good guys” are the ones to recall these memories. I think that may be because their work is not done yet. As we see with Desmond – who, as Tas pointed out, is absolutely working with a purpose and Big Picture knowledge.

  16. The reason they are ‘incongruent’ is because they ARE not sideways, i.e., they are not running simultaneously.

    The ‘sideways’ is a flash-forward. It’s the future. It happens ‘after’ the on-island events. The on-island events are what lead to the island sinking and a mass-reincarnation. Think Jughead times a billion…instead of Kate ending up in a tree 30 years in the future, she ends up on 915 with handcuffs on.

    This is why people in the ‘alt’ can ‘remember’…because it’s memory that has been unearthed.

    Ask yourself, with all of the near-death experiences in the island timeline, how come nobody becomes aware of the ALT? How come a kiss doesnt wake people up on the island and make them suddenly aware of this other reality? Because it’s the future and it hasn’t happened yet, and the only person on the island who has the ability to time-travel is Desmond, hence why he’s the only enlightened Islander who is at peace with whatever his island fate turns out to be.

  17. its a possibility sin, or it could also be that like charlie said, the alt is not real. therefore they “remember” their real lives while in their real lives, they don’t remember the imaginary one. because its imaginary.

  18. Desmonds actions are showing that the timelines aren’t one after the other, he is doing stuff which is going to impact the original timeline so it can’t justbe something that happens after. They are Going to intertwine. On them being imaginary, why? Why spend most of season 6 in an maginary world? I don’t think that what Charlie said exactly. These writers are better than ‘and it was all a dream’. There is a explicit, important reason why the timelines aren’t parallel, I can’t figure why or what but imaginary or the happy ever after future doesn’t seem worth the time spenton it.

  19. I dont know if this observation will help or not but what struck me as strange was when in the last episode, Libby says that she was watching tv and Hurley was doing one of his commercial, her memories came flooding back and she suddenly remembered, now Hurley is supposedly like the modern day Colonel Sanders, he is literally the face of Mr. Cluck’s, so presumably she had seen Hurley’s commericals many times but it was only AFTER the flight that it had an affect on her much like when Charlie says that he choked on his drugs at that exact moment of turbulence ( I think it had more to do with the fact that it was like what he was doing originally that really triggered his memory, not the near death experience, also same with Des and Penny, it was the stadium and the familiarity of when she came looking for him when he was getting ready to go back to the island, it is reversal of roles, I guess to go along with the mirror reference (side note Desmond got to look at his reflection twice whereas Hurley didnt (I thought that maybe it was significant because Hurley lied about Jacob saying he wanted them to go talk to Locke but then again maybe because the jig was up about the FSW they decided to forego that for the rest of the season) but I think that the moment of turbulence is what triggered the bleed through events that is now leading to ‘the awakening’ of this fabricated life. Hope that helps and/or makes sense.

  20. Tas, referring back to your #12 comment, I do not believe that the alt timeline is imaginary at all. What I mean by fabricated, is that it was literally “created” (in the building sense of the term “fabricated”) when the bomb was detonated, but also that in order for this to happen – the memories of the losties in the alt timeline were fabricated (in the falsifying sense of the term).

    So I do believe that the alt timeline is just as real as the original one. But I don’t believe that the Losties lived a full regular life from birth to current time in the alt timeline. I don’t think that they have or are imagining anything that is occurring to them in the alt timeline.

    I am trying to think of an analogy to explain my thoughts but not having much luck! The closest thing I can think of, is say for example – a set of parents adopt a child at the age of 3. Say at the age of 10 – they still have not told the child that they are adopted. Children generally don’t have memories from being a toddler but I learned something once along the lines of that people do “remember” things from their childhood if the event they are remembering was them in a situation where their heart rate accelerated a little (as young as 2yo or so). So if we take my made up example – these parents tell their adopted child that they went to Hawaii when the child was 2. This didn’t actually happen, but the 10yo does not know any better, but the idea of this is implanted in their mind which could invoke a falsified/fabricated memory.

    Another example that I can think of from real life is reports of therapists implanting false memories of abuse into the minds of vulnerable patients. This is the kind of fabrication that I am referring to, and probably not successfully explaining very well lol.

    So to summarise, my theory is that the memories of the Losties in the alt timeline pre “LA X” are fabricated, but are very real to them. From “LA X” onwards in the alt timeline, what is happening to them IS real, as this is from the point that the bomb exploded on the island. Therefore, both timelines are real and valid as you point out that Damon and Carlton confirmed this once.

    I am still confused about Mikhail’s eye though, although I haven’t read through the rest of the comments on this post so maybe somebody else has a theory around this and I’ll read up.

    It makes sense in my head hehe but I’m not doing very well explaining my theory and knowing the writers, it will probably be something completely different in the end anyway! I hope I have not confused you or anyone else even more 🙂

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