The Truth and the “Future” – more LaFleur follow-up
At first I thought this could be two separate posts. But the more I think about it, I wouldn’t be surprised if there is a connection between the two.
Point 1: The first episode of Season 5 was called “The Lie” and we all can remember Hurley’s tearful account to his mom of everything bad that has happened since the 2004 crash and ‘rescue’ – his reason was “It was because we lied, Mom!” We all could scoff and laugh and say, “Well Hurley, I think it goes beyond that, there are people like Ben and Widmore, and they seem to be causing some bad things…” right?
Wow…I am commenting on my own post. It’s only because I thought of one other thing.
I tend to dwell on the whole altering the future in the past scenarios, and think those are key to understanding what we’ve seen as well as what is to come.
We saw Locke tell Richard, “In two years, I’m born in Tustin…” and this was an “AHA” moment for us to understand WHY Richard was at Locke’s birth.
We saw Locke meet Charles Widmore in 1954 and then again in 2007…another “AHA” moment as we saw how this might seem from Widmore’s perspective.
SO.
The master manipulator Ben is now in 1977 with Dharma, Richard, all the Losties, etc. What exactly is Ben (equipped with knowing of events such as the Purge, 815 crash, Alex’s death, 316, etc.) going to do in 1977 that will be his attempts at manipulating the future.
How does this affect Jacob, Richard, Dharma, etc? How will this time placement affect Ben’s leadership of the Others?
Get my drift?
Ben in 1977 ? ? ?
What I concluded was that (older) Ben was in 2007 equipped with all that knowledge.
Sawyer and co. Are in 1977.
Young Ben is in 1977.
Juliet is equipped with all the knowledge of how dangerous and duplicitous Ben is. Juliet knows something about Dharma and the others. Juliet is now in a position to try to change the future.
What does Daniel say: ‘It doesn’t make a difference. Now what happens happens?’
Your first point Kimberly was really good. I think you hit it right on when you say that truth serves Sawyer and locke better in these last episodes.
The only flaw I see is that Sawyer does lie about being LaFleur and yet this seems to serve him pretty well for three years. We will have to see if the lie will betray him in two weeks when he has to bring in Jack, Hurley and Kate and fess up to Horace.
Andre,
I am pretty sure that the Ben who got on flight 316 isn’t dead. (Last week, didn’t we see Ben in a sling trekking through the jungle?)
So, I would then assume that Ben who has aged and lived to 2007 is on the island in 1977.
You do bring up the possible paradox issue that young Ben is also there in 1977. If he is, then at some point Juliet and Sawyer will have already encountered him. (It’s not that big of a compound, after all.)
I am not sure that young Ben is there yet. So what will happen when he does get there?
And for Daniel, he’s a mess and he is trying to figure out what happens now that he’s having to live through his theories and ideas as a scientist.
You are right about Juliet’s role.
I meant to say in last week’s PREVIEW that we saw Ben trekking through the jungle…
What happens now does not change the future up until 2007 (when Locke and the O6 return). Anything after 2007 is still undetermined. That’s what I think Daniel means.
This brings me to the idea that at some point, before the Purge, our Losties will find their way back to the present (sometime after 2007). This allows all the events from the Purge all the way to 2007 to take place without interference from our Losties.
Eggotised, explain how anything that happens with the Losties in 1977 is not going to change or affect the future. If they don’t change it, won’t they in a way keep reaching the point of the crash and then having to get back to the island?
Yes, older Ben is definitely not in 1977. Last time we saw him he was sleeping in an abandoned DHARMA station. In 1977 the stations were not abandoned.
I don’t think they can change the future. They’re not in a different timeline, just further back in time. Whatever they do in 1977 has already had its influence on 2004 and 2007. The island in 2004 as they experienced it the first time was the way it would be WITH the influence of the 1977 Losties.
The incident will happen. The purge will happen. The crash will happen. All of it will happen. We won’t see 2004 again and find it different than it was the last time we saw it.
Okay, so this discussion about flight 316 somehow ending up in two different timelines is something I have had a problem with.
No one can justify it as making sense? Simply because the Dharma station is abandoned at that particular moment isn’t reason enough for me to buy in. Doesn’t mean it’s not possible. But, I asked this in the “Question” section a couple of weeks ago, and no one can seem to support that the timeflashes ever split times before. Why would that be the case with 316?
I don’t think older Ben is DEFINITELY not in 1977. I just haven’t heard enough evidence to sway me.
very agreed highbrow. we see alpert at locke’s birth before we see locke going back in time to tell him, which gives us a clue that it had already happened, was supposed to happen and would happen no matter what. nothing is being changed in the past. the past had people from the future all along. we are just seeing how they got there.
evidence kimberly, is that wouldnt horace(in fact everyone on the island) be aware of a plane crashing?? how would sawyer secretly go out as the head of security to deal with people in the jungle when there was a huge plane crashing on hydra island. that doesnt make any sense.
the O5 time flashed back, thus the dissapearing that cesar was talking about. locke doesnt flash because hes dead, and as we saw with charlotte, dead bodies dont flash. as for ben, maybe he doesnt flash because he turned the wheel (also would explain locke). the 05 lived on the island a time and thus flashed (maybe the island exposed them to radiation, fitting in with dan’s theory of time travel)
Think about all the time flashes we saw on the island that Sawyer and crew were going through. They met other people while they were flashing and still only their group jumped from one time to another. Even Charlotte stopped flashing after she died.
According to what John said it was the return of those who left to the island that would stop the time jumps. The last flash, the one that transported Sawyer and the others to 1974, is the same flash the took the other former Losties off the plane from 2007 and to the island in 1977.
The other people on the plane just stayed in 2007. There aren’t other timelines. There’s just one timeline. We just have people at different points on the same timeline.
Okay. I am following along with some ideas, but not with the Highbrow’s idea that the last flash was the same flash from John turning the wheel.
Hawking explained that there would be a window where 316 was flying. John was dead on 316, so how could he also be the one turning the wheel that created the flash that caused the Losties on 316 to go to 1977? And how would one flash cause two different existences in time? Where you are saying that Sawyer and crew landed in 1974 but the very same flash put the Losties in “THREE YEARS LATER” 1977?
Tell me please that those are two separate incidents. The 316 window had to be a different incident, right?
I get that Charlotte was dead, so therefore, her timeline ran out and she didn’t move. Also because they moved back to a time where she actually was. (I won’t ever write anything/anyone off simply because they are “dead” on this show.)
If there are two islands, and Locke, Ben, Cesar and others are on the smaller island in 2007…and the larger island is in 1977…and Sun and Frank (possibly) are taking a boat to the island in 1977…
There’s some explaining to do, obviously.
Are they the whispers? (As people have proposed the whispers to be people unstuck from the timeline…)
And how does that account for Desmond’s special abilities to adjust and affect circumstances outside of “THE” timeline and whatever work he has left to do.
I like good discussion, thanks.
Ok, maybe they’re different flashes but at least each flash is the same kind of thing. I think they would have happened at the same time. But I didn’t say it was the same flash as Locke turning the wheel. It’s the same flash that brought Sawyer and crew to 1974. The one that Miles said felt different… Their last flash.
Both islands are in the same time. When Locke is looking out at the other island he’s seeing the main island in 2007, just like the island he’s standing on is in 2007.
Sun and Sayid both flashed and are in 1977, I’m sure of it. I think they’ll all be reunited in the next episode.
It’s all incredibly confusing.
If anyone can change future events it is Desmond. The rules don’t apply to him. Im not sure I believe everything coming out of Faradays mouth. He might be talking about his own events. He seems a little self serving along the lines of Ben. And I know Chang said there are rules. But hey the episode was the lie. And whats the point of time travel if you cant change anything. Just for fun. I remember when people were saying time travel was debunked.
kimberly, please look at my recent post, The Statue and the Smoke and see if any of that ties into your feelings on the theme of truth/lies.
I am not nearly up to date as all of you and new to site. Doesnt Faraday say right before they are going to kill the 2 guys attacking the lady, it doesnt matter what we do here, it doesnt change anything. I think sawyer asks him if they should interfere. So if thats the case and he is telling the truth then you cant effect the future no matter what you do in the time you are in.
I’m definitely a supporter of the two separate times theory, and here’s a couple of points that I think support it.
1. Cesar mentions Hurley flashing.
2. The 316ers are in what appear to be an abandoned Hydra station.
3. Runway built on Hydra island helped make for a safe landing.
4. The on island flash were Sawyer and Co. get shot at in the boat. They find the Ajira water bottle and boat just after they find the Oceanic camp pillaged.
I think a possible clue for the way the 2 groups reunite lies in the Dharma bear that Charlotte finds at the exit. I think a polar bear is going to be pushing a donkey wheel in Dharma time very soon which could flash the island and unite the 2 groups to the same time.
Walkabout, those are some pretty good thoughts. The Dharma bear idea is great.
We also know Faraday is working with Dharma in the 70’s and that he has the knowledge of space/time theory and seems to understand the capabilities of the Island. I’m almost 100% sure he will be vital in getting the time lines merged or getting them back in real time. I’ve been think since the end of season 4 that the they are responsible for the first “INCIDENT”.
Walkabout – I like the proposition that the Polar Bears could turn the FDW in 1977 to cause the realigning. Great idea!
Username – I too think Daniel will play a critical part in getting the timelines adjusted. (He’s just got to pull himself together somewhat…)
So if there are two groups existing on the island(s)in two different points in time – HOW will it be accounted for since the island isn’t flashing/experiencing temporal shifts?
That seemed to be the key (when the Losties who were unstuck in time) for the “co-existence” of two time periods being represented during one time. For example, that is why Locke could be on the island when Locke was over at the hatch originally…or Sawyer to witness Claire’s birth even though he was also on the island elsewhere…because the unstuck ISLAND was causing that particular group to be dislodged.
But there are no temporal shifts, so are we supposed to be watching simply two different periods in time?
So, if Ben, Locke, Cesar make it over to the big island then the barracks will be abandoned and blown up (thanks to the freighter crew)??
And will Richard and the Others be the inhabitants? Because that would be interesting…Richard in 1974 and Richard in 2007…
Thoughts people? You are presenting some good points, so keep at it…
And one more thought to finish my line of thinking/questions…
So we (the viewers) will then just flash between watching Sawyer with Dharma (now add Jack, Kate, Hurley and thanks to the preview…Sayid) and we will be watching 1974…
And then we will see Ben in the jungle traipsing around with 316ers and we will be watching 2007…
And if the groups cross paths as they are both at the Orchid or something?
Whispers?
Visions?
Alive dead people?
Sorry. It’s late. I can be done now.
kimberly, I like the aspects of ‘the losties’ choosing the truth over manipulation this time around.
There seems to be some margin of truth, even in the lies Sawyer/LaFleur tells. I believe this will serve part of their purpose in the long run. The lies he tells, are to protect themselves, not to advance their cause.
I um uncertain if they will prevent ‘the purge’. I rather doubt they will. I am certain, the knowledge of that will help them with their final mission.
Re: Polar Bear turning the wheel.
Ben seems pretty sure that by turning the wheel he will not be killed, but merely exiled from the island.
How could he know? Also, his method of getting to the wheel involves sabotaging the teleportation chamber in the orchid.
Okay. My theory is that someone from Dharma shoved a couple of rabbits and probably a Polar Bear through the portal to try it out before putting a human through. So the human makes a long distance call from Tunisia and reports on where the exit is.
Maybe they started by turning the wheel and started the island skipping (in 1985?) before getting control of the thing. Then finally the decision was made to build the teleportation chamber. That way you can transport without actually turning the wheel and causing too many flashes.
Along comes Ben, who has laready set up an account in a Tunisian hotel and has fake passports set up for himself in case he ever needs to make a desperate exit.
He destroys the teleportation chamber to prevent Keamy or any other Widmore agents from leaving the island and then moves the island by flashing.
The point to remember here is that the polar bear is just a convenient larger mamal that is already present on the island that Dharma can shove through (not that I would like to be the one doing the shoving) the portal.
At some point Charlotte gets evacuated from the island with her mother. Her father, she says, stays behind and she never sees him again.
I believe that Miles is Chang’s baby. Possibly Mrs. Chang and Miles are also evacuated on the same submarine. As a safety measure for certain members of Dharma.
Possibly following an incident on the island, or the definitive breaking of the truce by either Dharma or the hostiles. Possibly through the discovery of the Arrow station by Richard’s people.
Our losties will probably have a role to play in all this. Sawyer as chief of security, Daniel as part of the group working in the Orchid.