Flies in the Ointment!
Dan is going to attempt to change Charlotte’s fate. He is heard muttering to himself, ‘I won’t, I’m not, I’m not going to tell her’. He is referring to Charlotte. When he meets up with young Charlotte again, this time he won’t tell her if she comes back to ‘the island’, she is going to die. Averting the issue will change fate, and Charlotte’s intentions of ever wanting to find her birthplace. Charlotte will live!
Sawyer has become Jim LaFleur, and is a member of Dharma, and close confidante to Horace Goodspeed. Sawyer’s life as a con-man has served him well. He can lie with efficiency. In this instance, Sawyer’s lies are to protect himself, Juliette, Miles, Jin and Dan from being ejected from ‘the island’. They can wait for John Locke and the other ‘losties’ to return, while gaining position and favour with Horace Goodspeed, the current leader of the DI.
He has set up a grid of ‘the island’ for Jin to lead search, and has placed his comrades in positions where they can live undercover free of suspicion.
Sawyer/LaFleur plays off Richard Alpert with cool efficiency too. He changed the outcome of what might have been, a wicked confrontation, if not for his intervention over the deaths of the two hostiles. What kind of influence did Sawyer/LaFleur’s words about Locke and the ‘H’ bomb have on Alpert? For the second time, Richard gets a ‘whammy’ from one of ‘the losties’.
These actions also place him in Horace’s good books. Summoning Juliette to deliver Amy’s baby has pretty well secured the trust of Horace, and ensured their futures in the land of Dharma.
Daniel tells them, they can’t change the past. However, they have effected change already. What remains unknown is, what outcome their effect will have on the future.
Jack, Kate and Hurley are about to be reunited with their fellow ‘losties’, and no doubt more changes will occur. Will Jack challenge Sawyer/LaFleur’s role as Horace’s confidante, or question his authority or decisions? Especially, if Kate shows she still has feelings for Sawyer. Jack’s famous penchant for jealousy might take over.
Will Jack’s presence upset the balance that has been created within Dharma? What will happen when an angry Sayid is finally reunited with them? We also know there are a couple of other people who may have their own cause and effect on the situation. That is Cesar and Ilana. How will Sun and Lapidus effect change?
We all hope there will be no further power struggles between Locke and Jack, once Locke finally catches up to them. What does this all mean for Ben? He was born some time in the 1960’s and came to ‘the island’ as a young boy. Going back to 1977 would create a paradox for him, so I presume we will see young Ben for the time being in that time frame.
Have ‘the losties’ presence and interactions been enough of an impact, so Ben is not chosen as leader? Remember, Alpert now knows John Locke is supposed to be leader. Confirmed by Locke himself, and now by Sawyer/LaFleur. Or, does Ben already have that covered?
They are all ‘flies in the ointment’, and with each introduction into the past, it makes for too many ‘flies in the ointment’. If mistakes are made, the only person who can save them from the consequences of their actions is, Desmond Hume. He is the only person who is unaffected by the same time restraints which apply to everyone else. Desmond does not know how special he is about to become. Ms. Hawking knows! I wonder if Charles Widmore does! Hmm’
fantastic discussion there dabs. however, i wonder how locke will play into this because i am assuming he is in 2008 or at least some point ahead of jack etc.
Thanks Thomas5, I’m not sure at what point Locke will show up, and Ben for that matter.
Older Ben can’t show up for awhile, but I am not sure where that leaves Locke, as he is in the same time frame with Ben and company.
I suspect, a few things will happen before they do appear. I am thinking the famous ‘incident’ might alter the time line again.
i don’t think dan will change anything. i believe he is saying this to himself, but he is sounding crazy, just like charlotte said he would be (a crazy old man). i believe daniel will continue to be depressed and crazy and still tell her in desperation. just my theory.
ekolocation, you could be right about Daniel. He is the only one who believes you can’t change anything. His words, indicate he is thinking about changing it.
I believe that whole dialogue, was to let we the viewers know, that their presence can and will effect change.
I don’t believe anything that happens in the past will easily change the future. It’s going to take some intense shoving to make any change irreversible by course correction. Even if Daniel does not convince Charlotte to leave the Island, someone else will. As for Richard, and the confrontation – it never happened. It never happened because Sawyer went back in time and prevented it (they started the issue in the first place by shooting Richard’s guys hence course correcting the confrontation by cooling off Richard). It was always that way. The past Richard may not know about Sawyer and the gang, but the future Richard will just like Widmore remembered meeting Locke in the past. Its the losties that have traveled back in time so only they are aware that they met these people in the future.
I don’t agree that the Losties will or have changed anything. I don’t think they can change anything. Dan won’t change anything for Charlotte because he’s completely incapable of making changes. When Charlotte told Dan about the crazy old man who warned her about coming back to the island it was to prove that no matter what Dan tried (and he will try) he cannot change what happens to her.
The Others who were killed by Sawyer and Juliet were supposed to be killed by Sawyer and Juliet. If you had asked Richard in 2004 if he remembered two of his people being killed back in 1974 by a man and a woman who they at first thought were DHARMA people but then found out later that they weren’t but then later they became DHARMA people he’d say “Oh yeah, I totally remember that… boy, the long haired guy sure was a smooth talker!”…
Nice post. Thought provoking as always.
Hey I like the Desmond shout out. They have kept his role behind the scenes a little, But we know he is special and I suspect he will not be THE difference maker in the very end, But will be the one to get us there.
Also I like the Idea that once everyone finds there foot whole within Dharma (meaning the new arrivals) what will happen with all the new relationships. I don’t even want to start to speculate on all that because just way to many possibilities.
I was wrong about Charlotte being Faradays sister. That was a theory of mine. He truly looks heart sick and it could be a dangerous thing for everyone.
When the heck are Locke and Ben? I am not gonna even speculate. But just because the Hydra station is deserted doesn’t mean they are in 2007. Its lost there could be a number of reasons why no ones there.
username, if no changes are made in the past, what is the whole point of them being there?
They are there for a greater purpose!
The one point about Sawyer, et el, meeting up with ‘the others’ is, they killed Paul. Who is to say if they hadn’t intervened, that they wouldn’t have killed Amy too!
Their intervention, may have saved Amy’s life. If, this is true, Amy went on to have a child, that otherwise, may never have been born.
They have effected change!
highbrow, I totally get what you are saying about Richard. However, Richard did recall his conversation with Locke, in a previous flash.
That is why he goes to the hospital on the day John is born.
While he may not be travelling with ‘the losties’, he has some memory of events.
I am not sure what that relates to, but clearly he must.
As for ‘course correction’, we don’t know how rigid that is. It seems like Desmond may be the only one, who has the power to truly ‘course correct’. That is why Daniel has been using him. Twice, in fact!
OT, so glad you agree about Desmond. My thoughts exactly. He will come in and make an impact at some point.
As for Daniel, I know he knows better than to interfere. However, he is presented with a real dilemma with Charlotte.
If you loved someone, and knew your words, may save their life, would you intervene? Or, would you let nature take its course?
One of the points I am trying to illustrate is, ANY change to the original way things played out, will effect the outcome.
The only way it wouldn’t, would be, if they were present in the first place.
Something else to ponder!
The problem Daniel has is that he loves Charlotte but he knows that there is nothing he can say or do that will prevent her death. He knows this because he’s already seen her return to the island and die. She told him she remembered him though so we know he’ll definitely try to warn her.
I’d say that whatever it is that needs to happen to bring resolution to the show happens in the future (after 2007) and is dependent on the Losties’ experiences between ’74 and whenever… It’s not something they have to do in the past (pre-2007) but whatever they learn/do/experience during that time will make it possible for them to do whatever it is they need to do later…
Hi highbrow, I would agree with all of your statements.
Daniel will have to wrestle with his conscience in order to do the right thing, or go off track. No wonder he is going a little crazy.
I also agree about ‘the losties’. They are in a predicament of sorts, right now. They are flying ‘blind’.
Without a full set of instructions, no telling what kind of cause and effect they will have on events.
I think once they are all together, is when they will impact the future, for the better.
They will impact the future, yes. If they weren’t going to be a part of whatever resolution we’ve been working towards all this time then why have we been following their story?
The future they’ll have an impact on will be post 2007. Anything that happens between 1974 and 1977 that any of the Losties had a part in happened exactly they way it happened.
Sawyer saved Amy because on that day Amy was saved by a long-haired, rifle-toting, con man from the future. Her baby was saved because there just happened to be a fertility doctor fixing a hippy van nearby in the motorpool. The way we see things happen are the only way they can happen.
highbrow, you certainly make a compelling argument, I must say! And, I appreciate your standpoint.
I don’t think anyone can definitively say, WHAT time frame, ‘the losties’ will impact the future! We don’t have any information on that, yet! If the past has nothing to do with the future, then why would they be there in the first place? A rather pointless exercise. I’m sure the writers aren’t using it as ‘filler’.
Nobody can argue the logic of ’cause and effect’. It is fact. It does have an impact. If it didn’t, there would be no need for ‘course correction’ in the first place!
i don’t know if sawyer saved amy’s life. they were putting a bag over her head, why would they do that if they were going to kill her? seems to me they were going to bring her to richard. paul was killed without a head cover.
ekolocation, that is precisely the point! We don’t know what, if anything was changed.
If anything they did, altered the course of events, from the initial way it happened, then they effected change!
When Sawyer tells Richard, Dharma was not responsible for the deaths of ‘the others’, he effected change.
Richard was out for blood, so to speak. Perhaps, left in the hands of Horace, the outcome would have been much different.
I hope that clarifies it a bit better.
Everything that happens in the past is important. The Losties are gaining experience and knowledge that they’ll need later… It’s not just filler.
hehe, i was thinking that exact thing highbrow, when amy went into labor. i thought since sawyer saw kate help claire give birth he would now know how to do it and help. but he ran and got juliet to steal his thunder. darn
Perhaps, I could explain this in another way.
Lost is about many things. One of those is, Fate vs Free Will.
Daniel is wrestling whether he should allow Charlotte to die on ‘the island’, as fate would have it, or to exercise his free will, to alter the outcome. Daniel does have the power to change this situation, if he chooses to.
As we know, from Ms. Hawkings demonstration with Desmond, if Daniel were to interfere with Charlotte’s fate, the universe would self-correct and find another way for her to die. We seen this same occurrence happen with Charlie.
Lost has led us through 4 seasons, building up to these events. To say that Fate vs Free Will has no bearing on the story, is simply false.
I realize this may be difficult to digest. I am interpreting the events, as they are playing out.
If you want to convince me, show me some compelling evidence that verifies your stance.
The compelling evidence is that Charlotte told Daniel that he did try to change her fate. He failed because he can’t change anything.
I’m not saying that they don’t have free will. They definitely do. However, we already know the state of things at least as far forward at 2007. We know things must turn out this way so whatever the Losties do in the past won’t change the future from what we already know it to be.
How exactly do we know that the resolution we’re all looking for takes place sometime between 1974 and 2007? What if it happens in 2008? What if, for example, Sawyer is responsible for saving the universe and he does it in 2009 using knowledge gained during his time with the DHARMA Initiative in 1986? Was it then all just a waste of time going through whatever they’re going through?
My point is that everything that is done in the past has been done. If you crashed on the island on flight 815 and on September 23rd, 2004 you were standing next to Kate (before any of them had any idea time travel was possible) watching a video of everything that had ever happened on the island you’d see Sawyer, Juliet, Miles, Jin and Dan working with the DHARMA Initiative doing all the things we’re seeing them do now. Everything that we see happening now had already happened as past events at that time. Nothing is changing. It’s not fate… they’re still making decisions for themselves.
I think at this point, we are splitting hairs, because they do have the power to exercise ‘Free will’ over ‘Fate’.
Desmond used this with Charlie. He didn’t allow Charlie to die several times, as fate would have it. He CHOSE how and when Charlie would die. Because he did this, Charlie had a heroic death, instead of a meaningless one.
And, accomplished a task, which nobody else could have done to boot.
That was an example of exercising Free Will vs. Fate. Desmond chose wisely, and effected an outcome for the better.
I really do understand your position. It makes sense to me. I am not being stubborn, but I will stand behind my theory. I have provided enough supporting evidence, as to how I reached these conclusions.
Thanks for giving me a good run for my money! Keeps me on my toes!
If you turn out to be right about this theory, and your thoughts on Sawyer NOT succumbing to Kate’s ‘come on’, when it happens, I will Fed-Ex you the drink of your choice!
Cheers, highbrow!
The drink of my choice, huh? Ok, I’ll return the same offer if I’m wrong.
I think the situation with Desmond was different. He was having visions of the future. Desmond did not look around to see how things are and go back in time to change them.
I do think it’s time to agree to disagree though… I’ll look forward to that drink!
lol highbrow! I hope you’re not too thirsty! However, I will be the first to say I was wrong, if that’s the way it plays out!
I’m wrong quite often… but not always!
Dabs, well illustrated points. Highbrow and I were having similar issues on my “Truth and the Future” theory. I’ll have to say I agree with you (probably pretty obvious if you read the post & comments) but I really do appreciate Highbrow’s line of thinking and reasoning. It does help present two sides to the issues, MUCH LIKE the show and the issues between Locke and Jack, etc. It’s great!
At this point, I am most intrigued by Locke, Ben and Desmond. I love where Sawyer is at and some of the tension they are building as him part of Dharma and now meeting up with his “past” friends. Jack’s obviously a given as a main plot point, but whatever, I’m not a huge Jack fan.
I’m also slightly curious about Sayid. As we saw with Sayid on the freighter, he turned Michael in as the traitor. Sayid operates from a different set of emotional principles/guiding forces, so what will happen come him finding Sawyer and Juliet’s involvement with Dharma and even the interactions with Richard?
It could sound like I’m digressing, but really these are the character storylines now that will wrestle through these opportunities of fate vs. free-will and the direction for the ‘next 30 years’ of events.
Thanks as always for a well thought out post about the stuff that matters!!!
Hi kimberly, thanks for your comment!
highbrow gave a valid and intelligent debate, whick I have full appreciation for. It is good to have opposing views, especially on the important issues. We all benefit from it.
I am looking forward to the return of the ‘character driven’ aspects of the show, now we have seen some of the larger story arcs, presented recently.
I loved the Sawyer/Juliette connection! I hope Kate doesn’t mess that up in the long run!
I think Sayid is a man to watch very carefully. He had a lot of anger issues when he first arrived on ‘the island’. After being Ben’s ‘killing machine’ for awhile, he might prove to be very dangerous.
Highbrow, excellent points made. But I have some issues with this. Dabsi covered very well, that we have seen Desmond change the past. We have seen Daniel, go to Desmond and tell him to find Hawking, causing Des to have a dejavu type dream/memory of him saying that. Dan did this, knowing fully, that it would not change the short term future, as Desmond did with Charlie. Buut it changed the longterm future. It wasnt until Desmonds timeline hit the dream/dejavu part in his life that he had this revelation. This is because it was not there before. On a wider timeline with no “true” time, the point where Dan tells Des this mission, is the same exact point in Des’s life that he remembers it. It is not as if he had some sort of selective memory, this was not there, it was changed.
I fully understand that this could be viewed as seperate instances, and not related at all. But I dont see this playing out very well. Obviously John saw Richard in his future and Richards present. Which leads Richard to go off and find John as a child. Now obviously, its possible that we havent seen everyones flashbacks, but I am guessing no one else had a visit from Richard pre 815. This would make for a huge untalked about, out of the blue secret, and John being special…well not so special. This would also mean that in Richards future, he may go back and visit, but it hasnt happened yet, if he even does that. I think there is a possibility the baby may actually be Sawyer, he never touched it, as far as we saw, and it would make for great irony, but thats neither here nor there. Basically, what Im saying is, at no point, did Richard show interest in other characters, only Locke. If this had all happened before, the way Lockes story did, wouldnt there be added emphasis on the other losties being leaders or saviors?
Ekolocation…I have covered this topic some in my post “Sawyer, just cant do right”
here is my rebuttal to that exact same question there:
“For one, when they have the bag over her head, it does not seem as if they are taking her anywhere. Secondly, they killed Paul, maybe doesnt say that they were going to kill her, but at least shows their seriousness.
Just their actions and demaenor wasnt as if they were taking her. Richard seemed, not necessarily mad or upset when Sawyer said what had transpired. BTW, I loved that scene, the whole thing, one of my new favorites. But he seemed surprised, even if just a little. I think that if they were taking her, Richard if anyone would have been aware.
And lastly, if a tree falls in the woods and noone is around, does it make a sound?
Im not sure, but what I am sure of, is that there is NO reason to hold a gun to the head of a blinded woman. There is no fear factor, no threatening motive, if she cant see it.
You pose a good question username, and i am not
And Dabsi, didnt think I would forget about you on your own theory did you? ;]
Great post.
“Jack, Kate and Hurley are about to be reunited with their fellow
Flies in the ointment…lol..thats good stuff.
AES, I knew you wouldn’t forget me! Now you know why I was so excited when I read your theory last night! I had this one ready to fly!
Once again, great minds think alike! We were on the same page! lol
I love your rendition of Juliette ‘snaking’ Jack. I forgot for a moment, just how conniving she is.
You are absolutely right! All is not going to be well in ‘Dharma’ paradise.
You depicted Jack so well, that the writers couldn’t do a better job! lol As much as Jack may have changed, you just know he’s going to ‘screw’ things up, with his, ‘need to fix things’, and the ‘don’t tell me what I can’t do’. I’m a surgeon!
Oh, and Sayid is definitely going to ‘snap’ on someone. Hmmmm….thinking Benjamin Linus, maybe! Especially, when Locke tells him that Ben choked the life out of him! lol
It will be interesting to see where the other ‘losties’ fit in, including Frank.
Yes, the Jin and Sun reunion will be a three handkerchief moment.
BTW, I do think that Juliette’s hand in the delivery of Amy’s baby, sparked something.
Can’t wait to find out what it is!
Juliet would make a pretty good god of fertility statue, no? lol..i think i meant this as a joke, but im not sure…lol
Got a doozy coming on changing things, ben and chuck, and a whole mess of things I am trying to relate,you have to check it out. Im pretty proud of this one
AES, you may have meant it as a joke, but there is an element of truth in there! lol
I think it is well established that in Lost, the future cannot be changed. This ain’t “Back to the Future”. The difficulty in writing a show where continuity is EVERYTHING is that everyone is expecting a Back to the Future ending where there are multiple dimensions of time and everything can be “corrected” back onto some other course. I think the writers are going for something other than that very 90’s cliche time-travel theme. And that something different is time a line… a linear progression from point A to point B, where when people go back in time, they can’t change things because they were MEANT to make those changes. It’s fate, destiny, predetermination, all of that mixed together. Daniel could try to warn young Charlotte but all that he would accomplish is arrousing her interest. If she is lead to beleive she just spent a few years on Hawaii, no big deal, she would just think, shucks, I wish I could get back to Hawaii. In other words, Daniel probably does try to warn Charlotte, but doing so just creates the obsession that brings her to the island.
And Free Will is a vastly misunderstood concept. One can have Free Will to choose to eat fish instead of steak and still be destined to end up running for Congress. So not only do minor choices not disprove destiny, but there is no way to disprove destiny. Unless you have direct access to the “Book of Destiny” itself, you have no way of knowing if choices you make are predetermined or up to your own judgement. That’s why fate and free will have been such interesting topics of debate for the last several thousand years or so… because there is no way to conclusively prove either situation. But in terms of the show and the symbolism they have used concurrently in the writing of the show, there really seems to be a steady passion for fate as a determining factor.
pjdkrunkt, the future in Lost cannot be changed? It has been well established? Huh?? Are we watching the same show?
I can’t speak for anyone else, so allow me to speak for myself. I do NOT expect to see a ‘Back to the Future’ type ending in Lost!
It would hardly satisfy my intelligence or level of expectations of the show.
I completely, totally and emphatically disagree with you about choice having NO effect on fate and destiny!
There is no viable scientific proof of this at all, one way or the other. That is why the subject of fate vs free will is something which has been continually studied, speculated and debated upon.
There is also a little matter called faith. Were it not for faith or freedom of choice, why bother living life at all, if all there is to life, is what you are fated and pre-destined to do. I would like to think humans are NOT robots, and have some say in the ‘bigger plan’ that they play.
Sorry, my world encompasses more! I would like to think Lost does too!
Your choices in life, take you down a certain path. That path may be pre-determined, however your choices WILL determine your experiences on that journey. That’s a fact, not an opinion.
But thank you for sharing yours.
Yook my rebuttal right out of my mouth Dabsi.
took
Sorry, AES. You are still welcome to make one, if it strikes you! lol
😉 LOL. Good debate. hehe.
I’m also a follower of pjdkrunkt thoughts. Faraday makes a good analogy when they were skipping through time and compares it to a record. We see every so often a scene where an old record is playing. The record symbolizes in a sense history and the path of “time”. Everything around the record is “space”. You might be able to skip around record, even put a scratch on it here or there, but eventually it’s going to end the same way.
Now, I think the key to lost is to somehow change this. But how is the mystery? If we play another record, then we are getting into the paradigm of alternate time lines, and this is not going to happen on LOST.
username, with full respect for your thoughts, it would make for no story, if that were the case.
Lost is about ‘thinking outside of the box’, and considering ALL aspects. There is faith and religion, science, and pseudo-science and the paranormal.
We are being asked to explore all of these things, to understand Lost, and draw from the inferences we are presented.
There are no alternate time lines, and there doesn’t have to be, in order for change to occur. The effect that is made on the events is, what will bring about and effect change.
Check out my time-loop theory, as well as one written by AES. It might give some further understanding on this perspective.
Thanks for your comment.
Please check some information about Causality, Retrocausation and a Causal loop, which is very interesting.
This information can be found on Wikipedia. I hope it is helpful to anyone who is questioning how myself and others have arrived at our conclusions, regarding ’cause and effect’.
A small excerpt on Causality:
Causality denotes a necessary relationship between one event (called cause) and another event (called effect) which is the direct consequence of the first.
Username, Highbrow, or PJK…So pretty much you are saying that this season is just one big season long flashback of pre 815, and the O6 return, yes?
If this is the case, then here is my conclusion to what would be.
The island would not be destroyed, the world would not be destroyed, the pregnancy issues can not be solved, only figure out the cause. Widmore, Ben, Richard, any Others we saw in present 815 time, and any Dharma/others we saw at purge time, cannot be killed until at least the purge, and after that post 815 crash.
If they go back to “present” time, no changes at all will be made. Dharma is still killed in the purge, Jacob still exists as we know, and Richard and the others will still be the force that they were. Noone will die or not die that hasnt died or not died before.
Nothing will change with Danielle. She saw Jin and probably will see some other Losties and will NOT recognize them in the future. In 16 years, she will forget the face of the Japanese man that they found in the ocean when the boat wrecked and who dissapeared at least once right before her eyes.
Noone on the island, meaning the others, will remember any 815ers that were Others during the 70’s. Meaning the whole time Juliet was an Other with Ben in the 90s and 2000s, Richard had no idea who she was or that she was a Dharma member in the 70s.
All crashes and wrecks of boats and planes will occure exactly how they did before.
Meaning we may see the end of aany of the losties lives in the 70s and there would be no way to change it.
The pregnancy issues had to have been started at some point in time after Lafleur occured.
Are my statements and examples correct in your thoughts? No change at all. Dan tells Charolette, and Desmond can change absolutely nothing even though he is special even if he returns to the island?
Although I WANT to believe, that I/we are correct, Dabsi, there is one ace up my sleeve, that I have been saving since wednsday, that only fits with what Username, Highbrow, and PJK argue, and it very well may be the gamebreaker…in their favor…
I seriously am debating against myself to even say, because I know the theory consequences…I hate being wrong…
AES, I am open to hearing what you have to say. You know both sides of the equation, so weigh it out carefully, before presenting it. Throw out a theory, and get some discussion going. I’m all for that.
I find it interesting, that ‘the naysayers’ can offer no proof, to support their claims.
An opinion, means nothing, unless it’s supported with some evidence, logic, and how it relates to Lost.
Up and running Dabs. The more I wrote, the more I started doubting…wait until you get to the Juliet part…it makes sense
Hi a.e.s., dabs,
as always, you both have great insight into the show and the details on whats going on. time travel is a tricky subject. i’m a new guy to this site, but the reason i stuck around is mostly because of reading theories from posters like you two, and the alternate thoughts you produce.
a.e.s, i just read you theory around juliet and ben – what a find. how you pieced it together is pretty clever and i am buying it.
thank you username, quite proud of that one.
youre persistancy led me to dig, pat yourself on the back as well
username, I also have great respect for you as well. Thanks for your kind words.
Zip on back over to AES new theory! I have written something, which may be of interest to you.
Hey im new on here but just want to say that I stand by username pjd and highbrow. I believe ben did know about the losties when they first arrived. reason when they were led to ben by michael who was there? all the main characters apart from locke. this being because ben doesn’t know locke from the 70’s era because hes not there. y is it so important for them 2 go bak 2 the island??? i believe this is so they go 2 the 70s and make all the things happen that leads to present day….they cant change anything because we’ve alredy seen wot happens in 2007. thats the way it is. even desmond couldnt change anything becoz even tho he kept saving charlies life he couldn’t stop it forever. if they can change things then it cud well stop them crashing on the island in the 1st place which then goes bak to them not changing it. they were in 1970’s in the first place and everything that happened then will happen agen. if anyones gna change anything it will be between desmond and daniel. simple as that. y them? because they are eeach others constant and therefor can effect each others timelines and therefor together may well possibly b able 2 change the future….i doubt it tho. i believe losties will find information out about ben and widmore and the purge. do what they were supposed to do then come bak 2 present time with locke and ben with the knowledge they have learnt. sori if this is hard to undastand and read but im in a rush and just wanted 2 say that i support username highbrow and pjd. just remember if they changed something it would ultimately stop them from being there to change it. thats why its not possible. u can change small short term things which will just course correct but maja things will just not be possible. the purge will happen. what the losties find out along the way is the whole point of the trip. i 2 like a debate which is why i decided to join in :D. hope u dont mind lol.
Well, you joined the right spot for a debate, Wesley. This topic and the new post by AES, are going pretty hot and heavy right now.
I wouldn’t be so quick to jump to any foregone conclusions at present.
I think everyone is in for a big surprise!
Wesley, the one thing you and your counterparts have failed at miserably is, none of you have provided any evidence to support your claims!
An opinion, does not ‘count’ as a debate!
my evidence is the fact that if they changed something….say for example killing ben so the purge doesn’t happen. the 2004 losties will not meet ben when they crash because he is dead. everything that has happened would not happen. ben wouldn’t turn the wheel. losties would therefor not be in the 70’s therefor not being able 2 kill ben. its an endless circle. do u undastand that concept? if they stop the purge in anyway then the dharma will still be there in the 2000’s nobodys afraid of goin outside and dying. no desmond pressing button. no electromagnetic field being released pulling the plane down 2 the island and then again therefor no losties to go bak in time and prevent it. no mata how u look at it maja events cannot be changed…..i respect ur opinions but i dont need proof out of the programme because thats just physics lol. i do believe desmond could be a key to makin ur theorys possible tho.
what somebody mentioned about cause and effect being reversed….having the effect before the cause. the effect being what the losties have ‘alredy’ done in 70’s before the cause – being born. however if u look at it from the losties point of view there is no effect then cause….just cause and effect.
You provided me with a hypothetical situation that is NOT going to happen on Lost, Wesley!
Try using an actual example from the show itself and apply it to your knowledge of physics which you haven’t done.
Eg: Causalilty and Retrocausality which are themes of the show. The writers stated these are major concepts in the show, back in Season 3, thus the name of Desmond David Hume, the great philosopher who studied these concepts.
That’s my proof and I have supported it with actual references from Lost.
I was the person who stated this! I am fairly familiar with the concept. What I am suggesting is, both aspects of causality are playing out.
What ‘the losties’ do, or do not know, has no relevance.
I believe you have misunderstood the concept, because it has nothing to do with the losties births.
Check it out on Wikipedia. That might help to familiarize you with the terms.
Ok dabs so tell me what you think the losties can change?
everything that has happened has happened if it didnt happen they wouldn’t be where they are now they’d have gone down anuva path which wouldn’t lead to them changing it in the 1st place.if they change something then in the future it wont need changing because it happend a different way therefor them not stoppin the thing that was goin 2 happen. the past is the past. i think they can change the future post 2007 but not the past thats all. you can only have the power of free will when your in your present time maybe….i dont know lol. but they cant change the past!!! even if they think they’re changing it they’ll just be doing what they did the 1st time round.
Your question has been answered. Check out all of the comments.
i have but what im trying to say is that nothing can be changed. you give me an example of what they’re gonna change and i’ll prove it. i dont mean to be annoying i just dont undastand how u cannot undastand what i am saying lol. sorry :S
Don’t forget this word either. MIRACLES . Because I bet Locke goes bad and Jack turns him back. After there battle in Egypt. HA
Hey Wes…
ya know i was thinkin earlia that after all of this they could travel back to egypt and live out the rest of there days as gods. juliette – isis goddess of fertility, jack – seth (set) god of the desert and necessary chaos (could lead to the reason he always needs something to fix), kate – Nephthys the useful goddess (where i can remember kate never does anything other then help other people do things) Nephthys was married to set. Kate and Jack. My final connection being Sawyer – Osiris who is god of the afterlife and father to anubis (people have said sawyer looks like a jackal but my reason is who better to be god of the afterlife then the best conman on ABC. Osiris is married to Isis. New partnership with Sawyer and Juliette. However Osiris has an affair with Nephthys and they have the child anubis. Sound like something Sawyer would do with Kate? I thought so. Let me no ur ideas.
Hello A.E.S have you caught up with the recent discussions? Do YOU understand what I mean? Couldn’t get threw to Dabs was like hitting a brick wall. I’v read alot of your posts and I respect urs and Dabs theories but I dont understand how anybody could change a maja event in the past without it having an effect on them being there in the 1st place. Any input?
I am at wits with this subject, in a good way. Two possibilities. What can they change?
Example. When Desmond jumped after turning the key, he erlived his life, and gained the ability to foresee the future.
These were not random thoughts jumping into his head. With his ability, he saw Charlie die, right?
Ok, now, when Des saw Charlie die…he stopped it. Now even if he stopped it because Charlies fate was to destroy the looking glass, he still changed the universes short term future.
Now, by allowing Charlie to die in the looking glass flood, he also made sure the freighter people were able to come, and the O6, was able to leave. The question is..If he would have let Charlie be struck by lightening, hit by an arrow, or die saving Claire, would the looking glass still been destroyed and the island wheel been turned, and the O6 leaving.
Think. They were not supposed to leave. John, Ben, Richard, and Christian all said it. And according to all of those people, Jacob feels the same way.
Knowing this, means that “someone” knows what happened in the 2000s timeline, otherwise the O6 leaving, would have no signifigance.
When Ben turned the wheel, and John didnt, the O6 did what they were not supposed to do…leave. I think the thing that was changed had something to do with the wheel being turned. Whether by Ben, or the effect it caused, not with the ‘jumping’, but the O6 leaving.
Wes, may I call you Wes?
I have to know before I go on. What is your take on the timeloop theory?
I like it. But that was all happening in current time…the future and outcome of that has not been decided. That can be changed. The past has been decided so if u change the past then u change your course that led you there to change it. Therefor it neva got changed in the 1st place. I don’t know how else to explain it lol. Its confusin. I like what your saying about if desmond hadn’t interfered would he have died but i honestly dont know. How i look at it is if they didn’t leave the island then they wouldn’t be where they are now. They’d still be 2004 not having a clue about all the stuff that we’ve learnt since charlie died. It would have all gone dwn a different path that is no longa relevant. What do u think?
Yes u may lol. What do u mean the timeloop theory?
Sorry. By “if they didnt leave the island…”
Who, the O6?
Im with ya I think, going to dissect
Oh no, the can of worms I opened, lol.
The thought that everything is happening over and over. That the island is in a never ending loop in time.
Hop onto Amy…am i wrong. I am trying to connect something with this
as far as I see it there is no time loop. for there to be a time loop then the people in it would have to stay ageless. the only people we have evidence FOR this is Richard…..he could well be in a loop. Other people through lack of evidence is Daniel and Desmond. Obv everyone has a childhood but as soon as the person enters the loop they would never age. So actually i suppose all of them could have entered one when they landed on the island….who knows? lol
ignore that last post it doesn’t make sense lol
The question is… did Desmond actually change anything? Just because he saw events doesn’t mean he saw events as they were going to happen… it just means he was seeing events as they COULD happen, if he didn’t do anything about it. But here’s the crux… Desmond pushed the damn button for 3 years because he didn’t dare to cross destiny. It took John Locke, the man of (lost) faith to come in and change his mind… and viola, they blew the whole thing up. What Desmond thinks he sees as the future may only be a combination of his knowledge of future events mixed with a strong passion and fear of inaction. Even at the end he was trying to save Charlie, but it was Charlie who stepped forward and did the thing he was destined to do… play that stupid song and contact Penny. If Desmond had been in the room, he would not have been able to play the song, the radio transmission would not have been intercepted, Penny would not have been able to contact them, and Desmond would have died and all of his contributions would not have happened… including his interactions with 1990’s Daniel which forms the proof for his time travel experiments and eventually sends him to the island. Desmond was meant to “save” Charlie to keep him alive long enough to contact Penny. That little event sets off an entire series of events that are absolutely crucial to the eventualities which happen afterwords.
completely agree….dnt undastand how anyone can argue with this.
My apologies Wesley for ducking out on you. There was a reason you hit a ‘brick wall’. It was way past my bed time. I was falling asleep at the keyboard.
Thankfully, AES was here to be of assistance.
;]