Alt Timeline Started with Ajira
I’ve been reading a bunch of theories since The Incident aired, done the whole rewatch thing, etc. At first, I figured, like many – that 1) We won’t know whether an alt timeline has ben created byĆĀ a detonation of Jughead untilĆĀ S6; and 2)ĆĀ Locke’s toast. But a few things don’t add up.
To start with the obvious, with Locke, from a narrative point of view, something felt wrong. If Locke was to be a pathetic red herring, it would have been flagged heavier. Secondly, how are there 2 physical Lockes on the island? They have always flagged that a body has disappeared before smokey takes their form.
Couple this with the did they/didn’t they reboot question and a few clues in Namaste, as well as what Damon and Carlton have said about no grandfather paradoxes, WHH, etc, and I’ve come up with a theory. But as Doc Brown says, you’ve gotta think fourth dimensionally, not in the order that we’ve been shown things.
Left-field quote from Chuck Palahniuk’s Rant because it summarises my starting concept nicely:
“One theory of time travel resolves the Grandfather Paradox by speculating that, at the moment one changes history, that change splinters the single flow of reality into parallel branches. For example, after you’ve killed your ancestor, reality would fork into two parallel paths: one reality in which you continued to be born and your ancestor did not die, and one branch in which your ancestor died and you would never be conceived. Each revision one made in the past, the subsequent new reality it created, theorists refer to as a ‘bifurcation.'”
Think about the duplicated bunnies and the Orchid experiment. Casimir effect. Exotic matter can do freaky things when exposed to metal objects and big bombs! But I digress…
I believe Lost is setting up something really cool for sci-fi fans. How can you side-step the Grandfather Paradox and the self fulfilling prophecy of WHH? You splinter time and have it play out simultaneously.
So, stepping it through linearly: Locke dies. Jack et al get on the Ajira flight. At the moment Jack and the 77ers flash out, a new Lost present-day reality has been created – BECAUSE they went to 1977. In causing the Incident and creating an alternate timeline, a duplicate of Locke is now made to exist, because he simultaneousy already dies (thus bringing Jack et al onto the plane so they can change history) and must live (because the changes to the timeline cancel out the 815 crash). We’ve ALREADY been watching a new, altered timeline in all story post-Ajira.
The boarded-up clearly DHARMA buildings Sun and Frank visit in Namastearent New Otherton as we have known it. Ditto the numbers heard (spoken by Chang) as Ajira is landing. Changes made in 77 onwards have immediately affected present time. Yet as I recall, Sun visits their old camp (not up to that on my rewatch yet) – so Oceanic DID crash. Is it possible is BOTH did and didn’t crash, but remnants of both realities are preserved by the island because of causality. It HAD to crash in order to STOP it crashing.
As a reult, Locke isn’t alive because of MiB or Smokie or anything funny like bringing his body to the island. That’s why him being able to exist physically as both what people are calling Flocke as well as his corpse is possible. I think that he is both alive and dead. The other Locke ended up zapping into existence at that exact time the Ajira flight crossed the island’s threshold. The same changes made him alive too. Early S6 will see the setup for the conditions of how this happened.
(As an aside, re the whole “Loophole” conversation, I think that Locke has always had inside info from very early in the series – “This wasn’t meant to happen” etc. It’s like he was possessed by MiB via Smokie or something. Think Raistlin/Fistandantilus in Dragonlance for those who have read it.)
Anyway, so – we have 2 realities. I think the ’77 Losties will now leap back to the present (cue “vvvwooomp” white blast noise), and they land in LAX, etc. But those key players have a severe case of Desmond-itis due to their proximity to the blast. What happens for the first part of the season is them all fighting course-correction. They have flashes of memories from their other timeline. People like Charlie, etc. may temporarily be alive, but they start dying one by one – getting run over by trucks, etc. WHH. You can’t mess with fate. But things have ALREADY changed.
Locke IS probably still destined to die. As is Jack. (If the series doesn’t close with his eyes closing forever, I’ll eat my hat!) I’m betting it is just far more likely that it will happen in a more meaningful and poetic way than what we’ve seen so far. It would make for a very suspenseful S6, knowing certain people have to make a difference to the “right” side of the coming war before they go.
Thoughts?
Yojimbo, I think you are onto something with your theory.
We know that the writers of Lost have not shown us Flashforwards and Flashbacks in sequential order, somewhat deliberately. That is why I won’t disagree with you that an alternative time-line started with the Ajira flight.
However, I think that the right ‘chemistry’ for an alternative time-line occurring is forthcoming. I am personally not convinced that it started with the Ajira flight though.
Just how much of what we have seen already that will play into an alternate time-line at present is still unclear. That’s still up for grabs.
Some good thoughts here!
I don’t think Yojimbo was saying that the alt timetime started with the Ajira flight, correct me if I’m wrong. The Ajira flight was an event that allowed Jack etc… to go back to 1977 where they possibly made a change. The moment they flashed out of the plane yet the plane moved into 2007, the Ajira story at that point became part of any alt timeline that was started in 1977 – it happened 30 years ago even though we weren’t shown it in that order. Therefore everything that we have seen on the island after the Ajira crash is a result of a new timeline. We’ve already been shown the last part of the alt timeline, am thinking that we’ll be shown earlier sections – remembering that with this idea time changed from 1977 for everyone, not just at the 815 crash. There are huge implications for major on island changes over the last 30 years. I really like how this theory fits in with others that have been posted recently like scrollocke and some of the course correction stuff. I think we might all be pulling something interesting together.
Yojimbo I think you are on to something here. I’m going to have to print this out so I can study it a little more and I’ll get back to you with my thoughts on this.
Thanks for the comments guys. Tas, you are on the money. The Ajira flight was the trigger point to send them back that caused the events that DID change time and resulted in this ripple effect that flowed through and was seen the second Frank piloted the plane across the threshold of the Island. They didn’t put that numbers broadcast in there for no reason. It was to flag SOMETHING’S CHANGED!
On duplicates:
An additional element I didn’t touch on much was that things have been engineered quite clevely to minimise duplicates of characters in the splintered timeline. All the redshirts are pretty much wiped out, so they can reappear in the world without issue (but may die like lemmings anyway via CC).
But the KEY thing is the major characters. Locke I’ve already mentioned. He’s been replaced by his other self. But what of the others? Richard says of them “I saw them die” – again, the writers included this for a reason. One explanation is that they DO actually die in 77 @ the incident. It would be a neat way of making sure they aren’t duplicated.
May there be Desmond-style running naked through the forest? Many people are hoping so, I’m sure. Maybe running naked through a “corrected” 815 flight bound for LAX… Probably not. Anyway, my point is that there is some neat canceling out going on here.
Now what I’m trying to figure is how it ties to Jacob’s touch. For one, I think the guitar/case he gave Hurley is a prop that’s necessary for him to have because it would have (is yet to be) needed in the future timeline because it was cancelled out in the other one. IE Charlie is there and needs it or vice versa.
This stuff’s fun, huh? š
What about Sun though? There are 2 Locke’s, if Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Sayid, Miles, Juliet, Hurley, Jin die in the incident – their alt selves can return to the island without risk of 2 of them. but what about Sun, she couldn’t have died in the incident, so there could be 2 of her. I don’t think this will happen. What it course correction can work the other way, people may extend their lives a bit, but what if Sun died in the alt timeline but she shouldn’t have, could course correction have stopped her flashing to the past the moment the others did to restore the balance of things as they should be? Don’t know but it may explain why she was the only one who didn’t flash to 1977. Curious as to what you think Yojimbo.
Yojimbo, in order for your theory to be correct, that would mean we would have to throw out most of Season 5, including what the writers have told us about ‘the island’ moving and skipping through time because of the FDW being turned.
That, and some other very pertinent information learned during the season.
1977 was not the only year ‘the losties’ and company flashed to. There wasn’t any specific event that could have created an alternate universe at that time, with the exception of the FDW being turned and Ajira #316 crash landing.
If this were true, the very nature of the ‘time skipping’ would not be indicative of an alternate universe, it would be indicative of multi-verses, and I don’t think Lost is going to take that route.
I totally subscribe to an alternate universe on Lost, but IMO it didn’t happen when Ajira #316 crash landed.
Wikipedia’s definition of an alternate reality in science fiction:
Parallel universe or alternative reality is a self-contained separate reality coexisting with one’s own.
The whole of season 5 showed all of the events leading up to The Incident, Jack threw a big bomb down the hole to stop the Swan from being built because of the huge ramifications of a nuclear bomb going off near the huge amount of electromagnetic energy with the very specific and clear intentions of changing time. What more do you want to be told that this is big and could change time. The Incident is the beginning of the alt timeline Season 5 had to have happened for Jack to be in a position to know about and act on this, that’s the whole point of the season – leading the characters to that last scene.
Tas – yes, ther is obviously a reason Sun is in “present day” – any anything could happen to her to get rid of that problem! š
Dab re S5 – not at all. I would argue this theory gives the whole of season 5 a point, as Tas says. I can’t recall anything that Damon or Carlton that would negate this. In fact, it neatly falls within what they have been saying. What happened happened. But other stuff can happen too! š
I think you’re getting what I’m saying confused and reading the wrong thing into it. My post made it cleat I am not talking multiple ALT universes. I am talking splintered time (ie 2 realities coexisting), casimir effect (duplication effects of which WAS purposely included and flagged in the show), and so on.
Why would Wikipedia have anything to do with… well, anything really? Do the writers have to do what Wikipedia defines the rules of sci-fi as?
Wow first this is a spectacular theory, and second it’s even more spectacular for me because before reading it I submitted a theory which is pretty different from the outside – I talk about Juliette being the Schrodinger’s cat – but I end up to the same conclusion concerning John Locke : that it is not a case of dead raising by smokey but that we might be into a paradox linked to the course correcting of Juliette making/not making the bomb explode. I think that the current discussions on the website have lead to that, especially the fact the we hear the numbers during the landing of Ajira.
I think Yomimbo mispoke when he said the timeline started with Aljira. He means that from the narrative point of view, as an audience, that is the first footage from the alternate timeline. I think you are right on Yomimbo. I think the point where Jack, etc. flash out of 316 is actually the point where course correction starts to merge the two time lines. And they must be merged, or God Help us All.
Yojimbo, through Daniel Faraday’s explanation of The Variables to Jack et el, it was ‘the incident’ that would create the potential for #815 never having crashed on ‘the island’.
This would be the event, if any that would create an alternate universe.
What is flawed in what you are saying is, that you are placing Ajira #316 as the starting point of an alternate reality. This is what I disagree with, and for the reasons that I stated above. If that were true, than I would suspect we would see that #815 never crash-landed on ‘the island’ and neither would ‘the losties’. We haven’t seen this occur, so therefore I say an alternate reality has not happened yet.
I understand what you are saying, in terms of ‘the incident’ having occurred prior to Ajira #316 landing and that it was in 1977.
The problem with this is, that there is no guarantee that what happened with ‘the losties’ in 1977 originally occurred that way. One would subscribe to that, if one was completely sold on the WHH theory. That theory has not been proven to be fully correct nor has it been entirely disproven either.
Events from Season 5 were definitely leading up to an alternate reality being created. Where it becomes difficult to subscribe to for me is, ‘the losties’ had been gone from ‘the island’ for some time living in present time off of ‘the island’. Those that remained on ‘the island’ were flashing through time when the other ‘losties’ caught up with them in the time flashes.
Sun, Frank and others remained in present time. So, what I am saying is that as of the end of Season 5, we have not seen what is indicative of an alternate reality. How would you explain this?
If your theory is correct, you will be able to address the issues I have raised. If you truly believe in your theory, you should have no difficulty in allowing people to learn from what you have posted.
Dab – I think you’re missing the subtlety of both the clues and the knock-on effects that we have seen so far. I think you’re referring to Sawyer and Juliette’s time skipping into the future, etc. and why wasn’t that affected?
The thing is, the changes we have seen SO FAR needn’t be Earth-shattering, and they needn’t cancel out events they witness in any time period (or evidence of those events) – IE the hatch, the old camp – because IT HAD TO HAPPEN in order to CHANGE IT FROM HAPPENING. That’s what I mean by splintered time.
I AM saying that we HAVE seen evidence of an altered / splintered reality – you are ignoring the clear clues. The numbers playing in the Ajira cockpit in Namaste mean Rousseau’s message hasn’t erased them. It sounds like Chang’s voice to me. In the very same episode Sun and Frank explore a Dharmaville that is very different to the one Keemy and his team attacked. Look at all the signs and furnishings and compre them to the 1977 signs in, again, the same episode, and then in previous episodes where the Others are living there. NO SIGNS.
To me, you have to prove how things HAVEN’T changed / how those things could be so. I’m actually looking for things that disprove my theory at the moment and I’m just to find them. I’m up to Whatever Happened Happened tonight, so I’ll see how I go with that one.
Actually, speaking of those flashing events – questions we haven’t had answered are weird things like the flaming arrow attack and the whole outrigger chase. Post Ajira, but who were they? I have a feeling we’ll find out.
BTW, watch a cool early 80s movie called The Final Countdown – I’m sure Damon and Carlton have! š
Yojimbo, I certainly haven’t missed out on any subtleties and/or am someone who is ignorant to Lost. I’ve written a few theories myself.
You entitled your theory, Alternative time-line BEGAN with Ajira flight. I am saying that I don’t find this statement to be entirely accurate, although I get what you are saying, it is misleading.
I am not trying to be argumentative. I am a stickler for details! Had you articulated your theory differently, your point may have been more clearly understood by the masses.
I think most of us know that the events in Season 5 were headed towards an alternative reality occurring. It was set-up for this to be inferred and/or understood.
Having said that, congrats on your first theory! It was not my intent to be unreasonably harsh on you!
No problem Dabs – I’m familiar with your work – but “by the masses”, do you mean you? š
Kidding aside, you weren’t harsh at all. As someone who has taught at a uni and done a PhD, I welcome that all decent theories need to be argued, and argued _with_. Otherwise, they’re not very groundbreaking, are they? š
But I do stand by my statement that it did start with Ajira. As the others noted, that event caused a flow BACK to 77, which was immediately felt in the present. I was articulative a causal chain – “thinking 4 dimensionally” – I think you got it in your head that I meant “Ajira forward” – meaning only post the AJira date; which I didn’t.
So you know the scemes I’m talking about? Have you noticed others?
Yojimbo, once again I really like it even if you are wrong. Their was a sequence in the Dark Tower novels( of which some of the writers are fans ) where the hero, Roland, changed the course of events as he knew them. After this, Roland came down with a mind sickness, that could only be resolved through a specific event. I would consider that event the merging of time lines. What do you think about the merging of two realities through course correction?
I can’t believe you have such a problem with a theory’s title Dabs. I always take a title as something to get me to read it, take the theory on it’s own merits. You seem to be so caught up in not understanding the intent of the wording. The events leading up to a possible time shift caused by the bomb started with the Ajira crash, thats how Jack… flashed back to the island. Then the effects of the time change have been shown to us from the Ajira crash – it’s all connected. AND started with the crash.
Daniel telling Jack about how people as varibles can instigate change – leads to the bomb possibly going off. The major impact on Jack is 815 not crashing. BUT think about the changes that would have had to have happened for that to work – no Swan being built for one, what were the effects of possible radiation?… The implications are huge from 1977. On Sawyer and Julietās time skips, because the Ajira crash hadnāt happened with Jack flashing in their timeline, a possible alternate timeline hadnāt yet been created so they saw the future/past as it happened.
Being such a stickler for details, it seems strange that you have missed so many clues in the second half of season 5 that we are now seeing a new reality. A lot of these details have been discussed in holtamaniaās question.
I for one have had no problems in understanding this theory, I think Yojimbo has pulled together so many pieces that when looked at from this perspective make a lot of sense, and looking at the other comments here, the others have also understood. It also ties in with jj23s theory where he looks at it in a more lineal fashion (you thought that was great?) So please donāt speak for me as one of the masses.
On a personal note, you had a quite a go at me for asking questions and disagreeing with another theory, how has your comments on here been any different? And nobody is upset with you asking, thatās what the site is. If others arenāt allowed to disagree and question, why are you?
Yojimbo, snarky comments aside, I consider myself to be only one of the members who contribute to this site. Education or the lack thereof hardly matters to make a positive contribution.
I think you understood precisely what I was saying.
Tas, I wouldn’t dream to speak on your behalf or anyone elses.
I spelled out to Yojimbo who is the theorist of this theory what I was disagreeing upon. Apparently, he has understood this, and has articulated himself on that particular issue quite well, and therefore needs no further discussion or clarification.
What you understand and what you do not, is up to you to address with any theorist’s theory and hopefully do that with respect. I have done that, which if I am not mistaken is my right to do.
No further comment is necessary.
YOU spoke for “the masses” dabs and I justasked you not to. You bought it up. My other point was that yes you have every right to comment however you want to a theory, so does everyone else. Just thinkabout that before telling someone that they shouldn’t because you disagree, which is exactly what you did to me. Just asking for your rules to be applied evenly
Ok Dabs, I wasnāt trying to be snarky, I was trying to give you a polite nudge / hint at what you were covering for, but you aren’t getting it. Allow me to illustrate. Here’s the stuff you said:
“…your point may have been more clearly understood by the masses.”
Nice of you to speak for the masses. Who exactly? Have you done a survey or something to find out they didn’t get it? Or are you covering for the fact that YOU didn’t understand it by a) displacing it onto everyone else, thus speaking for them; or b) putting it on me. It’s insulting to the readership.
ā¦yet then you say āI consider myself to be only one of the members who contribute to this siteā
Thatās right you are. But you routinely like to position yourself as āthe grand Dabs who must be satisfiedā ā itās not your own personal little empire. Other people in the thread understood it, so either disagree with some evidence, admit youāre wrong, or walk away. Donāt try and cover by twisting it into condescending comments.
Iāll hold back from posting observations of your gems from other threads. Allow me to say though that somehow in your head you think giving someone a positive comment in their thread means itās ok to rubbish them ā that youāve been polite.
You seemed to have burred up at my comment about my qualifications; again missing my entire point. But while on that topic ā yes, you should at least concede some people may know more than you.
Iāve been lurking on this site for a few months without joining. You are VERY condescending to anyone whose theories you either donāt understand or disagree with; yet are completely hypocritical when it comes to allowing other people to have a say. Itās like a cancer on the site that is one of the things that has turned me off posting until now.
Anyway, I was upfront in my comments in trying to understand what you WERE saying, and was having difficulty cutting around your bluster.
Iāve asked you to give me some evidence to add to the thread. Iām assuming those arenāt forthcoming.
@ Ban,
Yeah, now you mention it the writers have noted those books as influences (I haven’t read them), and to me it would be the logical extension of what I’m arguing is going on.
Jacob’s book title – “Everything that Rises Must Converge”. Neat huh? Converging realities? All that rises – events from 2 timelines perhaps? Darlton have said that they set up S6 in “The Incident”, and I think there are Easter Eggs in it for sure. I think this is likely one of them. His touches and the guitar case are others, obviously.
Again, they didn’t put all that Desmond and Faraday stuff in there for nothing. It’s what writers call the Expository Scene. They layer in information that results in a payoff for later. And there was a TON of info. I mean, Faraday may as well been called Dr. Exposition for a while there.
So yeah, Desmond mind-state I am 90% sure will happen early next season. The big question is which way it will go. Alt reality reflecting consciousness of the “real” one, or vice versa?
maybe sun is in the present and didnt flash back because in this timeline/alternate reality which we have yet to see play out, she didnt board the 815 flight. we know she planned not to, it was a split second change of mind/heart when jin produced the flower at airport check in.
Bingo, Teenbee. Works for me!
Thanks Ifoundmyloophole.
Yes I think it potentially may solve it. And issues such as the compass and people from one reality influencing another is both a way of setting up the causality (IE it had to appear from somewhere), as well as course correction.
Re CC, Tas’s theory, “…Gravel…” has many adjustments to time and events taking place to influence the final outcome of “the game”. But here you could have a case of how one could fight that to create your objective as a self-fulfilling prophecy if that’s what you wanted. You are basically turning Locke 1.0 into Locke 2.0, but nothing is “left” to show for it aside from a compass in a gordian knot. Which is pretty neat.
No problem mate. As long as the site will have me and I have additional thoughts, I’ll bash them out.
Re Eloise – yeah it’s interesting, isn’t it. How much she “knows” about the really big picture. That scene would infer that though MiB / Jacob are doing all of this stuff, as some have theorised, that she doesn’t know about it – she thinks she knows the whole causal chain. But maybe she/they were talking with Faraday as the main subtext. (Can’t remember that scene very well – am almost up to it on Rewatch)
But yeah, I guess I’ll need to know whether I need to buy some sauce for my hat by about next May.
It seems reasonable to me that the alternate timeline started with Ajira. All the little clues point in that direction, as noted by Yojimbo. Otherwise I can’t understand why Jack et al just disappeared from the flight at that point – it has to be because of things that happened to Jack et al in the alternate timeline, a timeline that started with Jack et al appearing in 1977 and eventually setting off (or not setting off) the bomb. On the other hand, I don’t really understand why Jack et al appeared precisely in 1977 to begin with.
ilie – actually, that could be a causal factor – either it was a) as Eloise said – not enough factors are right and freaky things happen (Quite possible); b) They were each-other’s constants (helped along by Jacob’s touch?) with the exception of Sun whose constant may now be her kid (a bit wishy-washy); or c) They blinked out and into 77 because they didn’t belong on the Ajira flight in that new reality (a bit to self-fulfilling). So who knows. Maybe the answer’s in existing episodes somewhere…
i posted something similar to this on another theory. i do not believe in multiple timelines, but i do believe in duplicate bodies (double bunnies, double locke) all concerned with the frozen wheel area. i believe a double is made and dropped off at tunisia (or the double stays behind, maybe just semantics). if you haven’t seen The Prestige, look up Tesla’s machine in the movie.
I think Locke was doubled by turning the wheel. (as was ben which we will learn about in season 6) perhaps why both locke and ben got hurt before turning the wheel is a way of differentiating the copy from the original. thats my two cents.
Yojimbo, I don’t understand why some people think that Sun’s child is her constant. Isn’t the constant supposed to be someone who can be some sort of reference point both in the “present” and in the “past/future” when someone is time jumping, to avoid that the time jumper becomes too confused and lost in space-time or something like that? Wasn’t that why Faraday thought that Desmond might be a suitable constant for him? I guess I shouldn’t think too seriously about this Hollywood science but it seems weird that someone would think that Sun’s child can be her constant based on what we have seen. Based on random romantic nonsense it makes all the sense in the world, of course. š
Regarding the numbers heard when Ajira is landing… What do you think it means for Rousseau? Did Rousseau never reach the island? Does it mean that Alex never grew up and died on the island? But Smokey was still able to appear as Alex to Ben, hmm…?
I’m guessing that in the alternate time line, perhaps Sun died in child birth. Jin then raised Yi Jeon. Therefore to course correct, Sun did not flash off the plane.
Ekolocation, I like your doubling theory. Perhaps the double of Locke and Ben are somehow aligned with MIB. Afterall, MIB said “Someday, we’re gonna find a loophole my friend.” Maybe he was referring to him, John and Ben and possibly Others.
At the point Jack and company flash off the plane, that is the beginning of the two time lines merging.
Yojimbo, sorry for taking so long to get back with my thoughts on your theory. I really like the concept you presented and think you should develope it further. I think your idea is very plausible.
A couple of months ago I posted a theory that shares some similarieties to what you present and I think they both compliment each other. It is entitled “Schrodinger’s Island” and it dealt with using the Quantum Suicide concept to get out of the Grandfather Paradox.
The only thing I disagree with you on is the timeline splintering with the Ajira flight. I disagree simply because, IMO, a large amount of energy would be needed to splinter the timeline. However I do believe it did, but much earlier. There are three events that I think would release enough energy to cause the splintering you describe. They are the detonation of the atomic bomb, the destruction of the Swan, and the turning of the FDW and it’s getting stuck. The first two events could cause the splintering of the realities due to their proximity to the large E/M pocket and the application of Shrodinger’s Cat/Quantum Suicide. In both instances the universe splits into two realities that run side by side.
Now the turning of the FDW, in conjunction with another theory I posted about the possible use of torsion in the experiments originally being done in the Swan and the Orchid. The name of that theory is “Yet Another Twist- Einstien, The Swan, and The Eldridge.” Torsion is basically the twisting of time and space. Imagine that you hold a aluminum can by both ends and twist in opposite directions. The resulting crinkling in the can is the same as space-time twisting due to torsion. Perhaps this is what the FDW did and when it slipped off it’s axsis it left the different realities touching each other and resulted in them bleeding through into each other which ends up with the situation you describe.
Once again thanks for providing us with a theory that prompts us to think.
Thanks for all the comments, guys!
Eko ā Yeah, I think thereās something in the doubling / FDW idea. Iāve thought it through myself and think itās definitely a possibility. The only reason I personally lean against it is that they havenāt given us anything to really hint at there being duplicates of Ben / Locke running around, and I tend to lean my thinking towards stuff thatās containable within stuff weāve been shown. But who knows ā itās Lost, right? ĆÆĀÅ I did read a thread somewhere else that questioned whether 2 Lockes came out in Tunisia, 3 years apart, which I thought was pretty cool. Iāll have to go watch The Prestige now!
Ilieā¦ 1. – I think the mother/daughter connection would be strong enough to do that. But yeah, given that much of it is a creative application of science, we canāt be too strict, can we?
2. Hmm ā Alex & Rousseauā¦
What if Ben āMoving the Islandā and the skipping wheel bouncing over the whole space-time-continuum meant that it wasnāt where it should have been for Rousseau et Co. to come ashore?
But hereās the interesting thing. Alex DID exist. Her room is still there. To save me rewriting it, read Tasā thread on āInteresting Yet Conflicting Detailsā. Ben remembers Alex the same way as Locke 2.0 remembers his backstory. IF this were an altered timeline, itās a hybrid where people retain memories from their pre-Ajira other self, but there are artifacts with influences from both realities lying around. Very weird.
At this point the mystery could come down to the question of how good the props and continuity departments are!
Achalli ā Yes, Iām saying the CAUSE of the actual splinter occurs with āthe incidentā, but that was caused in turn by Ajira coming to the island. Think Back to the Future 2. Doc and Marty reenter 1985, but itās an Alt1985. After a little while, they find the clues that all is not the same. But it was caused in 1955 when Biff gave himself the Almanac, with those effects flowing through so that the effect from their POV was instantaneous. Same thing going on here ā EXCEPT that Darlton are playing by different rules to avoid a paradox. So, what happened happened. It had to have in order for something different to happen. Got all that? š
My only concern with the theory is that it may be too unwieldy ā and though I can absolutely see how your twisting theory and the metaphoric reasoning behind Schrodinger is a fit, Iām not sure they will have based whatās already happened on the show on things like these when they have already set up an oversupply of phenomena and theories and rules, etc. already. I think what ties them together will ultimately be relatively simple, using stuff already established, and thatās whatās really dictating my own thinking. But sure, thereās lots of slippage to go āround between theories for sureā¦
YoJimbo: Great theory!
In regards to Achalliās comment: We see a bright light and hear a loud noise when Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid disappear from the Ajira flight. And, that light and sound is identical to what weāve seen and heard when the wheel was off its axis and everyone was jumping through timeā¦
So, before Locke corrected the wheel couldnāt the island have skipped to the future while Ajira was over the island, and skipped again while it was still over the island?
With that being said, I think the wheel being off its axis is the energy source that caused the splinter, and it did start with the Ajira flight and with Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid going to 1977ā¦
Yojimbo, to my understanding the strength of Sun’s connection to her daughter doesn’t matter. The daughter can’t be Sun’s constant because the daughter didn’t exist in the past. Some people seem to think Penny being Desmond’s constant has something with love to do, which doesn’t seem to right to me. Faraday wasn’t in love with Desmond, was he? Ah, well.
Regarding Rousseau, Alex, Ben and Smokey, I guess it’s quite likely that we’ll in the end have to accept that the timelines are simply a bit intertangled and reality a bit messed up. š
There are some relationships we just can’t question:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4draRIV33uM&feature=related
Sorry, a little late, skipped some comments and going back to the original thought here…
I do think we are already seeing an alternate timeline play out…but I do NOT think it began at Ajira crashing.
I think the twist began when the wheel was turned for the first time, and really got twisted when it stopped in the 70s and LaFleur was introduced.
I think that there is reason to believe, much as Tas points out in his “Interesting…” theory, that something was changed during the whole process of the Losties being there.
I think that when Ajira crashes, there is already an alternate timeline on the island…THEY BUILT A RUNWAY…they knew there would be a need for it, and call it reality or timeline, something is playing out again, with at least subtle, but more than likely MAJOR differences.
And yes, of course Locke and Faraday and all the other people trying to change the past played a part…but I just think it began at the first wheel turning…
A.E.S. points out that someone had built a runway for Ajira to land on. However, the runway was shown AFTER the flash during the Ajira landing. We don’t know if the runway was there before the flash. I assume that Jack & Co disappeared from Ajira at the same time as we saw the flash. Jack & Co ended up in 1977 with the knowledge that Ajira would have to land on the island. Sawyer/LaFleur & Co didn’t know about Ajira until Jack & Co showed up so they would not have any reason to build a runway, would they? Therefore I assume that the line of events (timeline) that resulted in the runway being built somehow is highly correlated with the disappearance of Jack & Co in the flash. But it’s hard to tell what’s the cause and what’s the effect.
On the other hand, it’s quite impressive that Jack & Co remembered to ensure that a runway is built for Ajira. It the runway what the Others forced Kate and Sawyer to help build in 2004? It doesn’t seem to make sense that the Others leant from Jack & Co that they needed to build a runway. Confusing!
I just took it as a given that when Juliette says they are building a runway “for the aliens” or whatever smart-arsed comment that she was being relatively truthful, and this is the runway. I would figure it’s just another “Jacob thing” to add to the list…
Hm, I guess I forgot about Jacob’s potential ability to foresee things. Ok, so perhaps it wasn’t Jack & Co that got the Others to build the runway. It was just Jacob trying to help his people to be able to land safely and show up outside the statue at the right point in time, namely as a cliffhanger for the next season. š
Yojimbo, although I agree with your concept of alternate timelines playing out at the same time, I still disagree with it all starting with Ajira. I still think that the two events most likely to have caused the scenario you describe is the destruction of the Swan in season 2 when the button was not pushed. I believe this to be the cause due to the amount of energy released.
The other canidate is the FDW, itself. From what we have been shown, part of the FDW’s function causes time displacement. As Elsewhere mentioned, a time flash happened at the moment that Ajira was near the Island. But the flash did not necassarily happen because of Ajira. Ajira just happen to be in the right place at the right time.
But, I think you are on the right track with the idea of the alt. timelines and realities playing out side by side. IMO this is the nitty gritty of the theory.
Yeah Achalli, that’s right – it is.
However, this thread has become a bit of a mess of misunderstanding what I’m trying to articulate re Ajira, so I’m going to start a new one from a different angle.
(Feel free to continue to discuss the other aspects of the theory here if you want of course!)
Looking forward to it.
I’m a big Lost fan but I haven’t thought about it as much as you guys and I still have many questions about the show that I’m sure have already been answered so forgive me for my ignorance and newbishness (word? lol) but…
Is it possible that the flash created a new timeline and that the present (time with Sun and Ben) changed? Like say there are two timelines where the plane crashes and the plane never crashes. The timeline where the plane crashes is the one where Jack and the others never go back to the 70s to detonate Jughead. The timeline where the plane doesn’t crash is when Jack and the others DO go back to the 70s and detonate Jughead. And that at the time of the flash Sun, Ben group were teleported into the new timeline where Jack and the others were successful in detonating Jughead and thus the plane never crashed in 04. If that’s the case could that be a part of the loophole (be it MiB’s loophole or Jacob if he has one)
I’m sure I’m wrong and I’m sure there are a billion plot holes and flaws in that suggestion so forgive me.
and also lol I only scanned the theory so if this is what the theory is suggesting then please forgive me for that too lol.
Yeah, reading the thread you’re responding to normally does help. š
hahaha yeah I guess that is what the theory is implying but I just think it’s too complicated a theory to explain to the audience. I hope season 6 isn’t as hard to follow as season 5 was (however I watched the episodes after they premiered back to back so had I had a week to discuss and think about each episode it probably would’ve been easier to comprehend). It’s a really cool idea and who knows, it could be partially correct but I think the Oceanic camp pretty much dismisses the theory.
What I do believe is that an alt-timeline will be in some form and that the characters will have recollection of everything that happened in the alt-timeline.
Bump. For those who are interested in tracking this stuff.