Whatever happened DID NOT HAPPEN at least in Desmond’s case
Okay I just watched flashes before your eyes from season 3. So… Desmond flashes back/conscience travels or whatever to his earlier life before the island. He still remembers everything from the future aka his time on the island. This is not a regular flashback like all the other episodes at this time in the series because he is interacting with his past having known his future. We are not just observing what has happened.
He sort of realizes what has happened to him and he just kind of rolls with it. Okay he does all the things he has done before until he wises up and decides to ask Penny to marry him. This idea was catalyzed by his future and knowing how things turned out if he didn’t do so (he would lose Penny and end up on the island). So, he goes to buy the ring and talks to Eloise Hawking.
Here is where things happen that didn’t happen before. If you believe that whatever happened happened then Desmond should have never met Eloise Hawking… why? Because he never met her before/ has no recollection of her in his future (original future he has already experienced). The first time around Mrs. Hawking never told Desmond he was going to be on the island and push the button and everything because he hadn’t been on the island before, she had no need to be there. It wouldn’t make any sense if she had and if she did why does Desmond not remember her and all the crazy shit she told him about an island he would know nothing about. But since Desmond has sort of a second chance she has to be there to change his mind, or at least try.
This is important to me because if whatever happened happened Desmond would have never met Mrs. Hawking. He wouldn’t have freaked out when he saw her in the church. And this isn’t exactly what would be referred to as regular course correcting by random events like the guy who gets crushed by the bricks being saved only to get hit by a bus. The universe itself does not course correct, Mrs. Hawking does. She interferes and changes things that could have been.
This is important for two reasons.
1. Desmond meets Mrs. Hawking the second time around (during his conscience traveling) when he never knew her the first time, this is a change in Desmond’s past. He never knew her the first time. How can you meet someone you never met if you never met them in your past.
2. Second if Desmond never met Mrs. Hawking before then she had to change her own past (or future I really don’t know which it is anymore) by going to see Desmond in the jewelery store and not being where she was the first time Desmond went through all this. What did she change by not being where she was the first time?
Okay some may argue that the outcome is still the same… he goes to the island and turns the key and everything… but would he have gone to the island the second time around if Mrs. Hawking had not been there? He might have. But Mrs. Hawking changed the past by talking to him. When Hurley and Miles were discussing time in last night’s episode Miles said that they had already had their conversation because it had already happened. In Desmond’s case he never had that conversation with Mrs. Hawking… or the conversation he had with his Pyshics teacher friend.
Basically my whole point is why would Mrs. Hawking have to talk Desmond into going to the island if he was already was going to go. She changed her own past as well as his by doing so.
Also, notice Mrs. Hawking surprise if you watch the episode again when Desmond says he wants the ring. And… this whole theory could also be applied to Desmond again when he conscience travels on the freighter. He never went to see Faraday the first time… if he did why does he not remember these things and why does Faraday not remember him. I do not believe Desmond’s name was always in Faraday’s journal all along. This is perhaps one reason Faraday seems to be having memory problems… perhaps his mind is having trouble compromising both sets of memories he is having. Its like the movie Frequency when the guy tells his dad how not to die and then all of a sudden he has all these new memories flood his brain and it kind of freaks him out.
If change has happened before whay can’t it happen again… at least for Desmond since he is supposedly the only guy Faraday thinks is special.
Okay sorry to be so long winded. I hope this makes sense, or at least I hope this still makes sense to me in the morning/afternoon. I am writing this at 5:30 in the morning running on no sleep but it just hit me and I’ve only written one theory before so I figured I’d give it another shot while it was on my mind.
I think i get what your saying, but desmond tried to change the past by asking penny to marry him which would change his future and he would never go to the island and never be able to go back in time and ask her to marry him. He can’t break the cycle or none of it would ever happen so Mrs. Hawking had to stop him.
But his past still changed. He met Mrs Hawking which never happened before, and Mrs Hawking was not wherever she was before. So things still changed.
I understand what you are saying though. If he doesn’t go to the island, he can’t go back in his past but even though he did still go to the island other things changed. He has memories that weren’t there before and Mrs. Hawking either wasn’t where she was “supposed to be” the first time or she wasn’t where she was “supposed to be” the second time.
Ok… meeting Hawking was in his past, however… Desmond hadn’t experienced that meeting to that point.
Think about the Oceanic 6 survivors that are in the 70’s. Why wouldn’t they have memories of having met young Ben, or being workers for Dharma? Because THEY had not experienced it. For them these are all new experiences. This is their present.
Back to Desmond… While on the island he had no memory of meeting Hawking. Why? Because HE had not experienced it yet. He traveled back in time and experienced this meeting with her as his PRESENT self… but the consequences of that meeting had already played out. Am I making any sense? 🙂
Your making sense, but the fact that the oceanic six are in the past is different than desmond being in the past. For the oceanic 6 this is the first time they are in that past so this is the first time they are experiencing everything. They are in the past but it is their present. They were only in the seventies one time (so far). Desmond, however experienced his same past twice… and the second time was different from the first.
Think about it like this… if time is a straight line the losties begin whenever, crash on the island, then are transported back to the seventies on the island. This is the first time they are on this point in the line. Desmond, however, goes on a straight line through his time, he then jumps backward on the same line to a point he has already traveled and continues traveling on the line… so he should experience the EXACT same thing… but he does not.
I think that it all happened the first time around and he may have had precognitive flashes of his experiences on the island and just thought it was a dream….just now the flashes were the other way around because he was living on the island flashing back. Desmond couldn’t have canged te fact he went to the island otherwise he’d have gone nuts like Radzinsky he needed to go to the island so he could ring Penny 3 years later. Whatever happened happened because even though he thought he was saving Charlie, he wasn’t, he was doing what he was supposed to do to get Charlie to the point he did. The point is even if Desmond could have changed things everything happened the same way eventually. He still went to the island. These points where Desmonds future conciousness took over could have been blackouts the first time round for his past self. I think the whole point of the last episode is to say we can’t debate the point of what would happen with time travel because its never happened so nobody knows. I think Miles and Hurley’s debate was put in by the writers to take the piss out of us theorists thinking we can theorise on something that they can just make up. The title I think gives us the hint of what direction they’re gonna take…..Whatever happened happened!
Oh yea and Desmond met Hawkings the first time round he just chose not to buy the ring and did a runner….Hawkings actually explains this so not sure how you missed it!!!
Oh yea and now your saying Hawkings knows how it happened originally???? I dont think so I think she thought well he didn’t marry her so he isn’t supposed to buy the ring therefore scaring him into doing a runner…..this could also have happened the first time around. Just one question if Desmond can change things then how does Hawkings know ‘all’ the time lines and possibilitys….you saying shes like the keeper of time? Hawkings put the idea of the boat race into Desmonds mind by telling him he’s supposed to do it. How else would he know that hes supposed to go on a boat race and so-on? It happened the first time….get used to it.
NMB, top marks on your theory! I really love how you depicted Desmond’s situation as being different! Because it certainly is! I think you did this accurately too!
I am referring to Desmond as ‘The Variable’ because he is a ‘wildcard’. He has proven beyond a doubt that he is capable of foresight! And, with that ability of foresight, be able to effect and change the outcome of situations!
Nice work!
The O6 being in the past is different because they are physically in the past.
Desmond concience jumped to the past.
NMB, very nicely done on this post.
Desmond is the key to this thought. He is the one who could change things.
Great line of thought, fight the good fight.
Stay with the Desmond angle, as Dabsi said, he is the wildcard…And Locke, I believe, needs to play his part inn all of this as well.
Yes. Desmond is the key to changing the future.
How does the future change…It is not written yet? That is like saying I am going to change my next comment that I havent written yet…what about that is changing?
well. maybe it is science v faith. the science is of the past…knowing what happened and cant be changed (like scientific laws) while there are prophecies and people have faith that future events will occur… but can still be changed if you have the faith of course.
How do prophecies represent the future. And if they do, would that not be the past to someone who has seen it?
Once something occures, even if to only one person, it is at least their past. It becomes a part of their thought. Timetravel, concience or physical, is the basis for prophecy on the show. People just dont see the future, something happens to themon the timetravelling island that allows them to see the future.
This is where our problems arise. Our perception is different.
You are basing a scientific piece of evidence, from a perspective of faith by saying the word prophecy.
The prophecies, are caused by science. People do not believe they can change anything. No one has tried at this point. Sayid shot Ben, but that was supposed to happen.
Des saw the future, it to him, has already occured. It is now his past. Only the people who see the future, can change it, because they are beyond it in THEIR timeline now.
AES… excellent. Absolutely excellent.
no no. i know what you are saying. i was just trying to give a reason why some people seem to be confident in the future (hawking says to des, as tom says to mike, the island isnt done with you yet) how do they know this?
a prophecy is like nostradamus, or the aztecs predicting the end of the world in 2012. i put a perhaps in there because i have no basis for this, and prophecies can have an if then condition on them. maybe thats what hawking is trying to prevent in the future by making des do certain things in his present.
this is all conjecture, all i am sure of is the past, which i havent seen anything change at all.
As I scan down and read all the comments, I begin to form a theory in my head and when I get to the bottom, (A.E.S.) you’ve already thrown it on the page. And this isn’t the first time.
There ARE two ways to travel, it seems; Physically and Psychologically.
The physical seems to be set in stone. You’re there for a reason. Kate and Sawyer were there to save young Ben. Sayid was there to shoot him. Sealing Ben’s fate as an “Other”. I think Jin has a better purpose than to just be the supplier of the gun that shot young Ben. As for everyone else we’re yet to see.
The psychological seems to be a form of travel that is “bendable”. And dangerous. As previously stated there’s no right or wrong theory here. Since time travel is a theory in itself it has no boundaries. It all depends in what you believe. As desmond kept passing out and jumping back in his mind the island was had his brain skipping around making decisions in different times. It seems he would have eventually died if he took the wrong path. Atleast he would’ve died on the freighter because he would’ve have started a new timeline for himself by not going to the island. Again… shot in the dark.
Maybe this was happening to Charlotte as well, while she was constantly passing out (nosebleeds and what-not). But as she flashed back she was given a chance to change her past and she chose to not go to the island because of daniels warnings. She creates a new timeline for herself and dies in the old timeline.
The biggest hole in this theory is why would only the person who chose another timeline die in the alternate one. If there are multiple timelines existing why would only one person not be allowed to exist in both.
Maybe this is answered in why the island moves through time as well as changing its physical position. I need to stop.
Thank you Speaks…
I am just trying to show, that the logic is flawed.
Of course they cant change the past…not without the right players…the right gamepieces.
Think like this.
The normal people, the non-special, non future seeing, non-resurected people are the people in the 70s…Dharma, the others, even the losties that are there….they are like pawns, only one direction.
Desmond, he has seen the past, he move in directions the others cannot…like a knight in chess.
Locke has the ability to do more. He may not be able to see the way Des does, but he knows more than anyone, maybe Ben.
He has been saying “Im supposed to…” since well before he turned the wheel and traveled to the past.
To compare Desmonds views to nostradomus is apples and oranges.
Not everything Nostradomus said was going to happen happened, but Des seems to be right everytime…except if he steps in, and intervenes…
example…Des sees Charlie die in 1 hour.
He now knows, the future, by 1 hour. This, is now not the future..to him.
It still is to Charlie, and everyone else. The flashes, relate to turning a key, and travelling off of a time traveling island…not a spiritual experience, a scientific experience…a future experience.
Physical time travel is not necessary for Desmond to have been in the future. Once he goes there, it is not his future anymore, just everyone elses. If he changes that, he changes the HISTORY that WILL take place.
By doing that alone, by accepting that, you have to accept at least the possibility, that he changed something that is concrete. He changed something that happened TO HIM IN THE FUTURE…HIS PAST.
Its wrong to view the concience jumping as a prophecy, because its not…its timetravel.
Ok, let’s not make this an argument about semantics. I said change the future. You know what I meant. If we consider what might happen later if the Losties don’t go back into the past and meet people and learn things then it’s going to be pretty boring. They’re just regular people. Nothing special at all. That is a possible future. Because the future isn’t written yet, it’s written as it’s happening. If that were what happened to the Losties then yes, it would be a boring show. Kate would run, Jack would fix, Hurley would eat, yada yada yada.
That’s not the case though. Why? Becuase of all the things we see happen. They are different people now in 1977 then they were in the past in 2004 (ha ha) because of their experiences. At some point they’ll be prepared to do what they need to do. Whatever it is, no matter what year it is when they do it, it will not affect their younger selves in 2004. Also, no matter what year it happens, it is not change. It is how things happened. We have not been privy to the consequences of whatever it is either because we just haven’t been show that yet or it hasn’t happened yet in 2007 (the most advanced year we’ve seen so far).
So are they changing the past? No. Are they changing who they are? Yes, but just in the same sense that we change who we are every minute of every day as we experience and learn.
But the future is not the future anymore to someone who has seen it…that is my point.
Desmonds view of the world is different…he and Locke, and even Ben ARE special…
They are not changing it now…Desmond and or Locke are necessary for this to occur…
So tell me, what would change be?
If Horace was shot by Lafleur, and the purge still happened, would you consider that change? Or would that just be something that is small and means nothing?
DI still dies, yadda yadda?
I know you dont think Des sving Charlie constitutes as change, so what exactly would?
Hey Hey I finally got some comments after I passed out!
No, a future observer would remember seeing Desmond do the things Desmond did. They wouldn’t know anything about the possible events Desmond saw in his vision unless he tells them about them later.
Yes, Sawyer shooting and killing Horace would be a major change. It would directly contradict what we’ve seen. If we see that happen I’ll concede the point. But we haven’t seen it and I doubt we will.
What would constitute as change? NOTHING!
Ok we never actually see Desmond do all the things he does the first time before he gets to the island, but do you think everthing he did happened the same way before. He went on raving about having been on an island he had never been too? If this is the case then he would have had to know his future before it occurred the first time.
The important part in my theory is that Desmond is actually traveling on a timeline he has already been down. If he changes any actions at all then the past has been changed.
He is not experiencing his own future in the past.
Right…I dont understand what is so hard to get..
Hawking is wrong…If she tells the Man with the red shoes not do do what he is doing because he will die, and he doesnt, and lives, even another 5 minutes, that is change…His obituary would be different, his familys understanding may be different.
Evrything about his death would be different.
It only doesnt matter to people not affected by his extra 5 minutes alive. Teh people who are affected, Im sure would say, it is different.
Its only change to Hawking! Anyone else only observed what happened. Some dude in ugly red shoes almost died but he was saved by an old chick… then he died later.
Show me evidence that Desmond actually lived the events he sees in his mind and I’ll concede the point. There is no evidence of that! None at all.
And for the record, it’s not hard to get. I get it. I’m not stupid. These ideas might be right… maybe. But at the moment they aren’t based on evidence we’ve seen. They’re based on evidence people are speculating we might receive later.
“Its only change to Hawking!”
NO, its change to Desmond as well!
Hawking didnt take him and show him this the first time.
And to Charlie!
Charlie, the first time, sings the song, it rains, and he goes and stops a mugging.
The second time, Des was there, asked Charlie about the island, it rained, as Desmond predicted it would, and I assume the mugging didnt happen. And if it did, the plot leading to it changed…
And even if you believe it is only change to Hawknig…IT IS STILL CHANGE
Stop!! Stop!!! It hurts!! I want to travel in time to next year and be done with it… AAAHHHH!!
OK highbrow I can’t think of any evidence to prove that Desmond actually lived those events.
But… lets take this to the constant episode. Do you believe that Desmond always went to Oxford to see Faraday in his past, and always went and begged Penny for her phone number. If he did then why in the future did he have to get information that enabled him to figure out how to do all these things.
He is once again in an old timeline with new information. If everything had occurred as before why doesn’t he remember Faraday? This is important because I think we can both agree that Desmnd was living out the things he was seeing this time and not just seeing things… because we see a direct outcome of him changing things… he is able to stop his flashes.
Yes, NMB. He always did those things. That was future Desmond in that body when those events happened. His mind went from 2004 back to 1996 (I think) and did stuff. His 1996 conciousness wouldn’t remember it.
Of course, I mean future Desmond as it relates to 1996 Desmond.
I will now time travel forward with my cup of coffee and get on with my day…..
5 stars. And proof the future can be changed by changing ones past decisions. Eli, Faraday and the gang are trying to convince everyone that nothing can change. If that’s the case, then what’s the point as Jack puts it. The point is they are either wrong or lying. The past can be changed and the change will affect or rewrite the future.
username, you bring up a very valid point!
I have mentioned this before in terms of why Faraday and Ms. Hawking are attempting to make other people believe they cannot change anything, and the Universe will course correct.
If people knew they had the ability to change an outcome, they would in fact attempt to change things in a deliberate fashion! Perhaps, to selfish means. Just look at how Sayid and Jack reacted to young Ben. They would have toasted the kid, if left to them!
They are all being kept in the dark, for very legitimate concerns. The ‘losties’ are the pawns on the chessboard. They always have been and always will be, so long as they don’t catch on, that they can change events. That would be dangerous! However, they don’t have the foresight and abilities that Desmond has!
He is the one person who through his visions of the future, can sort out, the most effective measures to take to implement any changes for maximum effect!
desmond got conned by widmore and penny.the lady in the shop was a drug induced hallucination.penny and her dad used desmond to get him into the swan station so he would turn the key so the electro-magnetism would dissipate correctly to enable the time machine to work properly.poor ol des……this also means that libby was a spy for widmore.she met des in a coffee shop in the same way sayid met elsa.