The Unholy Trinity
There have been some significant discussions on the roles and connections between Smokey and some of the main characters: Locke, Richard, Ben. For the sake of keeping this short, please just read those to better understand where I am coming from.
Richard, Ben, the Temple, the all seeing Eye
Here’s my thought.
I think Richard and Smokey have more of a connection than a simple alliance. Dabs (and others) talk/research/know things about Egyptian history that I do not. It’s worth investigating, but I am going to add another spin to the connection.
In the Christian beliefs, the Holy Trinity is God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit. They are all the same, yet all different in form/beings. However, their purposes are one and the same – to direct people back to God, to reveal God, to worship God.
In explaining the Holy Trinity, the most common metaphor used is water. Water can take various forms, and even within those forms have different or unique purposes: water can be ice, water can be liquid, water can be vapor. But it is all H20, all three are all still water. Form has changed, but not properties or ultimate purpose.
In the discussion on “Alex…maybe Richard…maybe”, we have been talking about WHO does Smokey appear as? In ‘Dead is Dead’ we see Alex speak to Ben on behalf of either Jacob, the island, or both; and then possibly using the manifestation of Smokey. This is where it gets debatable, but I lean towards it being Smokey manifested as Alex. Just as Smokey manifested as Walt and Yemi in past seasons.
So the question is, does Smokey manifest itself as Richard? And even more significant, are Richard and Smokey the same?
Perhaps to look at these characters as part of a kind of ‘Unholy Trinity’ could be another way to explain how it is possible. Smokey is separate, but the same as Richard. Richard is separate in form, but the same as Smokey.
I find this could explain how when Richard walks into Dharmaville and says, “Your sonic fence might keep some things out, but not us…” still holds true that they can be separate beings, but ultimately the same. Just like heat ultimately melts ice, it only melts it to become water. So heat has some affect on water in the ice form the way the sonic fence might limit Smokey in certain cases, but not Richard.
I also think this is why Richard has an ‘ageless’ appearance, he has a more spiritual connection that goes beyond simple human properties.
The biggest thing that got me thinking about this though is the almost synonymous references from Ben and Richard when talking about the island and Jacob. In ‘Dead is Dead’, we see Richard tell younger Charles that Jacob wanted Ben saved, which is why Ben was taken to the temple. Ultimately, how does Richard KNOW this? And again these speaking on each other’s behalf was when ‘Alex’ (Smokey) is telling Ben that the island has chosen Locke…
Over and over, the island is given a ‘will’ by the characters. So who is the third member of this unholy trinity?
The Island?
Jacob?
And perhaps is Christian like the Biblical angel, Gabriel – the messenger?
Thoughts?
Nice! While I don’t think that religion will actually play into the show directly I think the structure is set in such a way that it can help us figure things out…
Was Alex a manifestation of the smoke monster? I’m 100% sure that she was. I’m also sure that Richard, Smokie and Jacob are all on the same team and one is not necessarily subordinate to either of the other two.
Richards quote when he showed up at DHARMAVille was actually “That fence may keep other things out, but not us”. He didn’t actually mention the monster. I’m sure he was talking about the Others because we already have seen that the fence does in fact keep the smoke monster out (when it was chasing Kate and Juliet). Richard can get over the fence because Kate picks him up and throws him over.
That leads me to believe that they are not the same thing. Different parts of the same team but still different. And I’m not entirely sure they’re unholy. I think they may be the good guys here…
kimberly, I think highbrow is correct on any specific religion being focused upon, one more than the other in the show.
I think they may not want to offend one religion more than the other. I also believe that is why they have selected ancient beliefs, because all religions stemmed from these originally, somehow. And, can still be found in the basis of many religions today.
I believe that all aspects of faith are being addressed and will continue to be addressed in the show, as it is one of the main highlights, set against the scientific aspects of the show, as well.
In the end, it will be left up to the viewers to decide which elements of faith and science apply. I have heard that the writers want the viewers to ultimately decide these factors in the end.
I expect we will still be debating them after the show is over! Quite brilliant of them, when you actually think about it, because that is what all theorists have been debating from the onset.
I still haven’t quite pegged Richard Alpert yet. He is not the smoke monster, IMO. And, I don’t think he represents Jacob either. He remains a mystery in my eyes.
I do believe that there are three distinct sides, if you will at play, representing a Holy Trinity, if you will, and an Unholy Trinity.
The individual sides are starting to merge together, and it is becoming easier to see who represents what.
The interesting thing about all humans, is they have inherent good and bad within them, given the situation. So, it makes it much more difficult to say who is good and who is bad. Those things can only be defined, depending upon who is standing in judgment of the sum total of their actions.
I am certain, ‘the island’ is one side of the equation, and it appears that John Locke represents that side. But, that is about all I am sure of, at this point! lol
All of the other characters on the show, can go one way or the other. I have decided that Ben has inherent goodness in him, but, that doesn’t mean all of his actions have been good.
He killed Locke, out of fear and jealousy, and he was prepared to kill Penny out of simple revenge against Widmore. Yet, we saw him show mercy to Danielle and Alex, and ultimately Penny & Desmond, and their young child!
The lines are very murky, with many of the characters, and it is hard to make an easy assessment of who is who and what they ultimately represent. But, we love seeing it all unfold. I expect there will be many surprises along the way.
Thanks for always inspiring some good discussion.
Highbrow, thanks for the clarification on the quote, I knew it wasn’t right but was posting quickly this morning. I updated it.
I also agree with you and Dabs both that I don’t think a specific religion will be the main focus, as much as providing a framework or context for us viewers to help understand some of the mysteries. It’s just like so many pieces of literature where depending on what you want to read into where the author is coming from can help you to understand the complexities.
I have another thought, but have to work for a moment.
Work? Work?!!?! I’m at work… You need to take some time to think about your priorities.
One of the things I am mentally debating is the purpose of Smokey. There have been some really solid arguments/theories about its role purpose prior to “Dead is Dead” – particularly by Dabs. I hope you enjoyedI think where the “trinity” piece comes in, is that the relationship between Smokey, Richard, Jacob &/or the Island has to have some sort of very purposeful connection.
Richard can get away with making decisions about people, going against the Others leader, and say that Jacob/the Island has approved or WANTS it. This ability to defy the Others yet coexist with them is really important. And his ability to KNOW the will of Jacob/the Island without us (so far) seeing those interactions is pretty significant too.
I think it is also important that Smokey as the “Judge” is the keeper of the island. Security system, sure. Keeping the right people on or off the island. Ben knew he had to be judged by Smokey – but WHY? What if Ben had stayed off island? Would he have not ever died? Ben obviously has some serious motivation to get back to the island, yet is it ONLY for judgment? I think that is interesting to think about, too…the power of the island, off island and in allowing certain people to ‘go’.
Which brings Christian back up into the mix. I only referenced Biblical Gabriel as yet another metaphor to theorize about how significant Christian is as voice-piece, messenger of sorts.
–
HB (how’s that?) – Don’t think I didn’t see your Kate throwing Richard comment! Nice.
In my second to last comment I was writing something to Dabs: “I hope you enjoyed and had some satisfactions with all the Egyptian elements in Dead is Dead!”
But I got interrupted and never finished…sorry.
I threw that in there just for you. I don’t care how old it gets, I’m going to keep bringing it up.
kimberly, I think Christian Shepherd may bring in one of those other elements, if we are to just look at his name, and reference it. A ‘shepherd leading his flock’.
I am convinced that Ben came back to ‘the island’ for other reasons, in addition to being judged. Pretty clever of him, if you really think about it. I think of Ben as a ‘betting’ man. He played his cards right, and had judgment passed while he was still in the smoke monsters good favour.
I am convinced that Jacob has little to do with the ancient ties to ‘the island’. I think Jacob represents ‘the island’, as does John Locke now.
Richard Alpert is a whole other story. He definitely is some kind of ancient being, perhaps a reincarnation.
I think it is too early to establish firm ideas about some of these characters.
The smoke monster is also an element of ‘the island’, separate from Jacob, Richard & Ben. Ben admitted he could summon it, but has NO control over it. Danielle called it a ‘security system’, and Ben told Locke, that Locke and co., refer to it, as ‘the monster’.
Ben knows this is Cerebus, an incarnate of the Guardian of the Underworld. I believe that is who and what it is.
We don’t know what Richard’s interactions, if any, are with the smoke monster. We have only assumed he used the smoke monster to heal Ben, but do not know for certain.
We know nothing about Jacob and his interactions with the smoke monster. Apparently, Jacob has his ‘hands tied’ at present. You’d think if he could summon the smoke monster, he would to get out of his current situation.
I think Ben knows how to summon the smoke monster but he has absolutely no control over it.
Since this is my theory, can I just say that I am so sick of some of the attitudes on here lately? I was going to go comment elsewhere where there’s conversation about Smokey and Richard, but I just can’t bring myself to because it’s so irritating?
I am glad that you two are on here writing things that I both agree and disagree with, and that its all been respectful and intelligent. Thanks for that.
Now I have a real comment…
I know, it’s crazy. One person says makes a comment that might not be worded exactly the way they meant it then the other person goes off and it’s all down hill from there. It makes it hard to keep track of the conversations about Lost that are going on…
I agree that Ben has no control over Smokey. It might be one of the only truthful things he’s said!
I also don’t necessarily think that Smokey is what healed Ben. But is there a way that the healing and the robbing of innocence can be different yet from the same source?
Dabs, I also agree that there’s no way to theorize correctly in making a character tie-in set in stone at this point.
I’m very curious about Jacob’s longevity on island…when Jacob began and what Jacob’s resolution is. That’s why I think it would be interesting to figure out how many references are made to think us believe that Jacob and the Island want the same thing. Do you know what I mean?
Is it that the island chooses leaders or its keepers – people like Locke?
Or is it Jacob?
Can Richard use Jacob and the Island as power over the leader of the Others (as he did with younger Widmore) interchangeably?
That makes it complex, which is why I started leaning towards putting it another metaphor of the ‘trinity.’
You are right that if Jacob could use Smokey to help him, you’d think he would. But maybe he is? Or, maybe the connection is Smokey/Island/Richard – and then Jacob and Christian are on different level…yet related?!?
I almost responded like, “what are you talking about a$$wipe?” …just to joke around…but some people might actually think I am serious since that is their MO.
Ahhhhh…if only Kate was around to throw some punches.
Yes, I just want to talk about Lost and Kate’s shoulders. And Juliet’s eyebrows. And Ben’s bug eyes. And Locke’s new (wonderful) smirk. And if Jacob is Shannon & Boone’s love child.
And AES’ eye.
Oh, kimberly! lol I was reading along here very nicely, thinking bout my comment in response to yours, and came to your last comment, and spat my coffee out all over! I can’t tell you how much I needed that comedic relief, right now.
How am I supposed to comment, when you made me completely lose it!
Thank-you, btw.
I’ll have to come back, when my sides stop splitting!
Yeah, I have to admit I’m liking the new Locke a lot more than the old one. He seems much smoother now… and a lot less like he’s having trouble figuring out what to do next…
I haven’t heard that Jacob theory. Sounds spot on to me. I don’t care if they were step siblings, what they did just isn’t natural. I read somewhere that psychologists say it’s not normal to become attracted to someone in that way when you’ve known them since before you were ten. Their parents got married when Boone was ten so I’m sure they knew each other before that. It’s just gross. Besides, Shannon was annoying.
Tonight when I go to the gym I’m going to do shoulders and I’m going to think about Kate the whole time…
You’re just as bad as kimberly! lol H E L P
I decided last night that I like this new Locke, too. He is much more confident. Maybe being murdered will do that to you. Nah, it’s probably the being murdered but getting to come back to life that helps the confidence situation.
And if you do a lot of deltoid raises, but poor Kate doesn’t know what she has going for her…
Good Dabs, glad to make it fun.
If Jacob isn’t Boone & Shannon’s love child, then what was her purpose? As HB said: Annoying.
Yeah, every time I feel like I can’t do more I’ll just think of her hulking shoulders and I’m sure that will motivate me to to another set, maybe add a little weight…
She can kind of speak French… but only in a weak, wimpering kind of way… Oh, she took care of Vincent for a while after Walt left…
I read your theory and not the comments. But if you do not mind,, I will say that I have been waiting for someone to throw up a theory on the Trinity and so I am glad you did. I can not wait till you expand on this because you have given me an inspiration too!
What about my eye, are you insulting me!?!?
I kidd…
This is a great theory..and you know what…for the first time…I honestly agree with every single thing highbrow says…
Kim, the H2O part…that is 100% what I believe.
I do believe that although Jake, smoke, and pretty Ricky are related, I dont think they are actually the same…but, that doesnt mean I think the idea is imcorrect.
With all the judging, and remorse that goes on, who is to say that Richard wasnt blessed in some way making him the way he is…whatever that fully is.
I like the Christian idea very much as well…
“According to the New Testament, Gabriel announces the birth of John the Baptist (Luke 1:5-20) and the birth of Jesus (Luke 1:26-38).”
Seriously…what about my ‘eye’?
After last night’s episode I actually believe that the reincarnated John Locke is smokey as well. He disappeared while Ben was having his encounter.
As far as Boone and Shannon go… whatever, they were both shallow and she manipulated and tortured the poor kid. Besides, the single most beloved (not by me) siblings in all of Sci Fi had the hots for each other… Luke and Leia… come on.
Good call on the skywalker twins…anybody have a gold bikini?
I do like the thoughts of a trinity. I as well put a question out about a trinity!!! I have no deep thought on the show. I enjoy watching it. i feel it will reach all levels without being so complex, or offending people!
Alrighty then kimberly, I’m going to take another run at this. One of the things that stood out for me last night is, John Locke seems to have been chosen by ‘the island’ first.
I could be very wrong about that, however, I am basing that upon AES theory, that John Locke always knew about the smoke monster.
I am unsure when Jacob entered into the picture, and/or how. Up until recently, I thought Jacob was an ancient deity. Now, I am unsure about that.
I am thinking overall, with some of the characters, they are re-incarnates of people who came before them. In much the same way, Jacob uses Christian, and ‘the island’ is using Locke, the smoke monster using a variety of the living and the dead, etc.
So, at this point, I don’t feel I can speculate too much, because I am waffling on a few things. I personally need to see more, before I can decide.
Awww, AES, I am just teasing. 🙂
I would say you have brought it on yourself, the way you are always watching here! 😉
Yes, I too, am proud of Highbrow on this post. I’m glad that we could find some common ground here!
PJ – I thought it was interesting how Locke disappeared, and I thought it was NO COINCIDENCE that the writing went like this:
Ben: (To Sun) “I suggest that you go inside…”
Ben: “Because what is about to come out from those trees, I have no control over.”
(Trees rustle)
Locke emerges.
YES. Ben has no control over Smokey, nor does Ben have any control from here on out of Locke.
And if Locke is ‘communing’ with the island now that he has been resurrected by the island, it makes sense that he would have a deeper connection now to Smokey. Based on my ‘trinity’ like connection I am theorizing about…)
The show is really pointing that locke is the mosnter!! so the thought is, Locke is somewhat one with smokey, is that way he refers to it as a monster? Locke other side? or is show just side lining us?
hahahahahahaha still laughing. So glad I joined – love the theories and the comedic relief!
So what if Richard, like Locke, was resurrected ala smokey after being killed by ben like pj says? And why does everyone, including widmore when he was in charge, listen to Richard without question? I am not convinced he is on the island’s side. Locke and Christian/Jacob are the only ones that represent the island’s true will, IMO.
I love this theory, well thought out, extremely well written and just blew me away. I would love it if this were true, that Richard was Smokey just as a seperate entity.
Richard is always sort of taking a back seat and judging others. Think of the convo btwn Ben and Widmore around the fire when Widmore says to kill the baby, the focus the camera on Richard and he is just like, I AM NEUTRAL, seems as though he wants to watch the way both of them interact in the best interest of the island.
I love it Kimberly, I hope it is true!
“…Quite brilliant of them, when you actually think about it, because that is what all theorists have been debating from the onset…”
This can backfire if they go too far or add too much deadwood information.
AES, I was once given a sparkly gold banana hammock as a joke. Does that count?
yes it does highbrow…yes it does…
Hello Kim….I see you are here, I have been going over some posts that are not on the home page, and I cannot stop thinking about this theory for some reason…I am trying in so many ways to find more answers…
The thought of smokey changing to smoke from water, which is what the human body is mostly made of, is starting to get to me a little…
You said earlier, what else can this be…ice, what did one snowman say to the other…
…and the ‘frozen’ donkey wheel…
I could very well be just babbling…
Thanks AES. I have been hit and miss on here the last couple of days.
I am glad you are thinking about it. I finally posted the Widmore-Des theory and yet, I too, was thinking about this.
No matter where this goes – roles of Smokey/Richard/the Island – I am now thinking of “AND HOW DOES THIS RELATE TO THE CHARACTERS AND MAIN PLAYERS?”
You know, it’s kind of the “why” now that I’ve been thinking on the “what” and “who”…
And wow, if we were to get started on the ‘water’ themes that could be metaphors.
I think it’s Smoke since that is pretty much the complete opposite of water, for one thing…
it could be black steam!
Because I just smoked and I am fine
But a face full of steam will probably kill you!
jk btw
And if we want to start talking some ‘opposites’…when people are baptized, it takes place with water, whether it is a sprinkling or an immersions…the baptism is a symbolic act of ‘alliance’ or belief, sometimes it’s called a public declaration of ‘belonging’ – and I think it would be really interesting if whatever act (ritual?) Richard helped perform on Ben to heal him could be like a metaphorical baptism…add to it that it could have been Smokey even and wow…
Josh: …and smoke can’t or doesn’t?
I was jk ignore that –
but to be serious, your theory is great, I have a connection.
Ben stuck his hand in that pool of water and drained in,,, apparently that is how he calls the smoke monster.
When the hole drained out the water, Ben said “I’ll be outside” as if he was speaking to ol’ smokey!
What is the deal with that pool of water he had to drain???
Does this mean in any way that the monster cannot come out unless summond, and if so…did Ben summon it all the other times we have seen it?
Also, who lived in Bens house before him?
And did they know of the hidden room?
Sorry, a little off topic, just got my mind on smokey…
That is an AMAZING question,
who lived in Ben’s house before he did, it was part of Dharmaville so it must have been someone in the DI before the others took over the barracks.
We have seen Horaces’ house right? Was that the same as Ben’s? It is probably impossible to tell. Ugh AES you just hit me with a crazyyy question! Did the DI know about that room, wow!
maybe Ben had it built for easy smoke monster access!
I dont think he has been using it everytime, he may just have a way to call it incase of an island emergecny. It def works on its own!
AES, When doing my referencing, I came across something quite interesting about The Underworld.
It said, that ‘the Underworld, consisted of underground waterways, and this is how ‘one’ travelled from one world to the next!
It made me think, of the Cerebus vents, and how the smoke monster apparently travels.
Also, the references made in TTLG, about Alice in Wonderland, and mirrors, water is what was used in ancient times, to view ones reflection.
There have been quite a few references to water, and the mirroring effects, in Lost.
Can’t really think of all of them, off the top of my head. It’s been awhile.
Josh, I knew you were joking…I just forgot to smile when I said it. (Especially considering all your other topics today, I had to say it…)
AES, GOOOOOD questions!
In my mind, Ben would have to be omnipotent to have the ability to summon Smokey at all other times. I wonder if he had the door built when he moved the Others into Dharmaville.
And I wonder if it was his personal security system for times of emergency breaching like with Keamy & crew.
OR to get even deeper in to Ben’s abilities…
If he knew that he would have to summon Smokey, he had it built…
My guess on who lived in Ben’s former house was, Jacob!
Dabs, I remember you saying that about the traveling via waterways thing. That really makes it interesting, especially from a large scale perspective on what the island possibly is!
It’s an island that travels in time and it moves about in the water…
Interesting catch.
And the reflections thing correlates to Smokey appearing as visions of people.
Wow, good reminder to be considering!
kimberly, one other thing in Lost we have seen a lot of, with respect to the characters themselves is, that ‘the island’ seems to have had a ‘mirroring effect’ on them!
When they first arrived on ‘the island’ you could definitely see that each individual character was doing a lot of ‘reflecting’ of their own lives via the flashbacks. It was almost as if, ‘the island’ was causing them to do this!
Wow, that really is reaching into the past! lol
So, if you really link all of those things together, it does make some sort of sense.
Dabs, great tie in as this was exactly what I was thinking about (while pondering away in ‘real life’ activities) after you reminded about the purpose of water.
Wouldn’t it be interesting if the ‘judgment’ scene we saw with Ben where he actually got to see the flashbacks we have been seeing for the last 4 seasons somehow played out even more with the characters?!?
I know that they have been doing their own ‘reflecting’ as you mention, but I’m now realizing that the scenes that Ben saw were the first time we’ve seen a character have the flashbacks while we have the flashbacks.
It will be hard not to watch now with this in the back of my mind! 🙂
Allow me to really fry your noodles…Do you own the DVD set…look at the cover…what do you see?
I personally don’t own the DVD set, AES. Would you provide me with some details?
Help me out!
Oh, sorry Dabsi…let me see If I can find a link with the picture I am referring to…
You kind of have to see this one.
http://th08.deviantart.com/fs28/300W/i/2008/087/e/3/LOST_Season_1_DVD_Cover_by_by2on.jpg
Ok, the pic on the right side is the front cover…or at least I thought it was, lol, I grabbed my DVD after I said that, and I was wrong, it wasnt there, lol…very sorry, hope this helps with what I found interesting about the last few comments
Sorry, I post based on my memory sometimes…
This is somewhere in the DVD set, maybe the inside cover…not sure
Either way, kind of makes sense with what you were talking about here with the mirror reflections, and water, yadda, yadda
;]
Boo…ghost of theories past…
I have been looking for this post for about a month now…and was too proud to ask just in case I was crazy and we didnt stumble onto something well before things started to unfold this season….
I would just like to point out how working together and actually putting different minded individuals together on the same cause, can be very beneficial if it can remain respectful.
Starting with Kim, there are several people who contributed to this post almost a year ago that dumbed down the upcoming importance of water and mirrors based on little evidence prior…
I remembered saying something to Dabs about the dvd cover, her saying something about people being reincarnated, Kim obviously starting the conversation with the trinity as a topic, and something about highbrow and sparkly gold banana hammock…it ALL is starting to make sense now…
Kim…I bet the last thing you were expecting was to get a comment/notification on a post this old…
;]
…
This is indeed pretty fun stuff if you read it now lol. Like Josh said here, what’s with the water pool Ben drains to summon the smoke monster?!
AES, I somehow JUST got notified of your comment on this theory that was from 4 days ago! Argh.
I too, have been thinking about this post (had it in mind when I wrote the water/ash one a couple weeks ago) but I didn’t bother to read it before I wrote it. Also because we saw it come to play out but with the wrong people. 🙂 Oh well.
I realize now (of course) that a ‘nemesis’ (a currently underused nickname for MIB) was missing out of the equation for Jacob. All along back then (prior to The Incident) I/we saw a connection to religion/religious ‘structures’ (for lack of a better term) but somehow forgot about the role of the devil/evil in factoring in who the players are…I now just shake my head and laugh because it was there all along. (I’m sure it will be a similar thing come the end of May.)
Anyway, this is fun to go back to now. And yes, I do agree that when people work together – even with opposing ideas overall – there can be some GREAT discussion. (I think there were at least 25 new/random theories today alone.) Sigh….oh for the good ol’ days. 😉
You know what I want to talk about?
1. All of MIB’s conversations/reveals so far this season. Especially everything in Ab Aeterno. That would be a fun thing to compile and dissect.
2. The power of belief/faith. Now we can add Richard into the mix as a character who is faced with choosing to believe (or not). Richard obviously is deeply affected and influenced by his beliefs. We see it in his backstory. We see it in how he first believed MIB that he was in hell. We see him then believe Jacob. And ultimately we see him come back to believing he is in hell. And then the episode culminates in him believing his wife is there right next to him and he is communicating with her.
Anyway, it sure seems like we were reminded that there is great power related to whatever you believe the island is (or isn’t). Seems pretty important at this point in the show.
Since it probably sounds like I’m ranting, I’ll be done for now. I just think it would be fun to talk about some of these things.
Thanks for going back to this!!!