WOW. Didn’t see that coming.
So Dan was Widmore’s son and Penny’s brother. WOW. So who’s side is Hawking on? Right now, I truly believe she is on her own side.
And all the stuff Dan said about the button and the Swan station, does that mean the we basically just erase everything we have already seen? What does that do for Ben vs. Widmore vs. shadow people or whatever? And did Dan have a special connection with the island (maybe because he was concieved on the island?)?
I’m just typing random questions coming to my mind after watching that episode. This post is merely a disscussion starter.
I always thought it was pretty obvious Widmore was Dan’s father.
I would imagine that if they do change is, then everything would be erased?
On the idea of past and present as we are now dealing on a person to person basis, This is Radsinski’s present, so we already know his future, when he kills himself in the swan. So now, how does he get there, if he even still does?
One thing’s for sure: Dan was not conceived on the island. The reason Charles got booted from the island was for a relationship with an outsider, who I guess turns out to be Eloise. Also, Dan could still be Penny’s half brother, depending on the mother of Penny, who it is evident is not Eloise.
cappayne, wouldn’t it make more sense that the child conceived in an off-island relationship was Penny?
Eloise was on ‘the island’ from at least as far back as 1954.
Regardless of the semantics, Daniel and Penny are half-siblings.
the thing dan said cant happen. he wanted so bad to believe that change was possible. but he still talked to charlotte, and he got shot by his mom as always. there is no past change.
ekolocation, why the dissension? I thought that the aspect of change was outlined fairly well, albeit Daniel may not have been able to resist his remarks to Charlotte.
I am beginning to think that you and highbrow are joined at the hip, or one in the same!
the future of the losties can be CHANGED but the past cannot change
Following our arguments…fuel on the fire. The very subject highbrow and I have disacussec/debated for hours…
We have our ‘how’?…we know need to find out…”Can they”?…
I feel the can and will.
As Faraday and Myself have now said…the Losties are not part of the ‘true’ past, therefor can change it…
Yes, Sayid shot Ben, and Ben wasnt helped by Jack, so he was taken to the others by Kate and Sawyer, with Juliet at the helm…
BUT…Lets not forget, Richard already spoke with young Ben before any of this occured, the wheels were already in motion for Ben to be an “Other”, it was not caused by the Losties, only pushed a different direction.
They are the ‘variables’, because they are all speacial in their way because they have knowledge of whats to come, their future, the Others/DI past.
Desmond interacted and took a cricket bat to the head by changing a small part of his past…because he knew EXACTLY what was going to happen…If only someone else knew the same for the 70s…hmmm….
But Sayid shooting Ben had to happen, a loss of innocence that makes him the evil guy we all know in the 3rd and 4th season. I doubt that they will be able to change the past, they don’t know what happened which is the big mystery of the Dharma Initiative. Also there is the fact that the season finale is called the Incident. We don’t know whats going to happen, we just know the general idea of things.
plus it would be kinda stupid to end the season on, it never happened but we’ve still got another season. unless the writers can make it work.
Someone like…….Benjamin Linus?
Nah the online futurite I can think of that may have knowledge of past events would be Juliet… But the do have dans notebook…
Guys, whether or not ‘the losties’ change this particular ‘incident’, isn’t exactly the ‘big picture’, as they will still have the opportunity to change other happenings, which may result in an overall change.
Change, indicates that anything is now possible, especially if the timeline changes abruptly, for some reason. It does not mean, that future possibilities will not be available for change!
The ‘game’ isn’t over yet, and neither are the possibilities!
Like I said in another post… I just hope this change doesn’t end with the plane landing in LA…bust…. Oh ya and for everyone that decided widmore didn’t put the plane there… Told ya!…nothing in SLIH told me he didn’t put it there
But see that’s what I’m getting at, they are variables that can do whatever they want, but even still that means that anything they do has already happened. they just don’t know it yet because it hasn’t happened to them.
But I think he’s saying… If they could gain knowledge of what DID happened then they WILL be able to change what happened… This isn’t their past… They can do what they want… Free will
maybe, i just think if that’s the case its a stupid move.
but I firmly believe that any attempt to change the future that has already happened will fail. i know I’m not being too open right now… but that’s just the way I see it. another event that will end in failure, like Sayid trying to kill Ben as a child.
I really don’t think they can change the past. They can know what’s going to happen and try to stop it, but they don’t know exactly why it happened and their decision to try to do something to change it could actually be the decision that was needed to make it happen. idk if that makes any sense to anybody else but me.
I just think that they were meant to go back in time to set these events in motion and do the dirty work, i guess you could say, to make sure everything stays the same. They are not there by accident. I don’t think anything has changed. If they weren’t supposed to be there in the past, then everything would change when they interacted with people.
What soupertrooper said above, any decision they make, even if they think and hope it will change the future, already happened, just not to them yet.
yay
daniel just tried to change the future by telling Dr. Chang to get everyone off the island, and by trying to talk to his mother. But what happened was supposed to happen. He was always supposed to tell Dr. Chang…that’s why Dr. Chang got his wife and Miles off the island. He was always supposed to get shot by his mother, and before he died, he realized that she had always known that she would shoot him. He was trying so hard to change the past, but he actually did exactly what he was supposed to do.
Soupertrooper, I can completely understand what you are saying, however, what would be the point of the whole story, if it were not that ‘change’ were possible? It would all be for naught!
I cannot wrap that around my brain, as there would simply be no point to Lost, whatsoever!
Something has to change, otherwise the entire point of the show would be ‘lost’.
I am an optimist, not a fatalist. The show is asking people to suspend their disbelief.
I know what you are saying aching… I’ve wrote the same thing before but what I’m saying is gaining knowledge of the choices that were made… Then making a different choice.. They don’t have to use the same choice that was made before if someone that lived both timelines(ben) told them how something went down
Ben was just an example.. No I do not think old ben makes his way to the 70’s…. If nothing is changed then the show ends with jack waking up in the woods and that makes it a loop
but the point of lost isn’t to change the future, its to answer these mysteries. and if they correct the past and make sure they don’t crash in the future, there wont be mysteries to solve.
But I wouldmuch rather that happened the the plane landing in LA… I was so pissed off at even the mention of that tonight.. Garbage
Knowledge is power! You are correct, henrygale 108!
but Henry it doesn’t, because that already happened to jack, so it wont happen to him again.
what about mysteries if egyptian mythology, ressurection, healing, a freaking monster made of smoke…
i don’t think the show will end where the show started. there is supposed to be a war, right? i think it will happen in the present time…the Losties in the past will do what they need to do and then somehow find a way back to the future, where the 316 crew (Ilyana and her gang) and Locke, Sun, Lapidus and Ben are. Then is when the war is going to happen.
Oh I forget the fact the island moves through time!…… But if everything happens the same… The plane will crash and jack will lay still in the jungle with shrapnel in him and a dog coming to piss on his head
but waking up in the jungle with shrapnel on his back while Vincent pisses on his head, already happened to jack. so that’s not gonna happen again in the show, jack is 3 years older now and he will do whatever is next.
unless you mean it in the sense that it happened to jack, and by not being able to prevent it it will happen again. otherwise when he wakes up in the jungle after 815 crashes he wont remember trying to stop the incident from happening cuz he didn’t do it yet.
am I just repeating stuff?
I still think whatever happens, happens and ill give you an example from yday ep.
Daniel suddenly has the idea that he can actually change the past and hence create a new future. He gets tooled up and probably for the first time in his life (anything for a begineer?) carries a gun. He does this because he fears that his mum in this time period may actually just shoot him, however because he approaches the others camp like that he ends up getting shot. Now it seems this has happend many times to the losties, Jack not helping Ben, Sayid shooting Ben.
Because of their actions or lack of actions it causes a chain of events that lead to the otcome that we know in the future. Im not saying that you definately cant change the past but surely you must know how something happend to be able to change it, not just the end result.
When Desmond flashed back to the pub he knew how the guy was going to get hit so he was able to change it. But Daniel didnt know how his mum would react to him at the camp so he wasnt able to change anything.
Therefore my opinon on the end of the season is that the Losties will not be able to change anything unless someone who knows how things happend, ie present Eloise or Ben comes back to the 70’s.
yes…desmond had already lived that part of his life..and he remembered it in his mind which he how he knew how to change things…whic h is why hes different….but the losties cant travel like desmond so it would take someone that was in both time periods to know how something went..and the only one is ben..but hes not in 77
But why would Plane 815 crash in the first place if the survivors were able to prevent that from the past? Nothing can change what happend in the future.
I bet setting off the nuke is actually what’s going to cause the incident. Just like Sayid shooting Ben is what ultimately took him to the others and made him sinister. Farraday’s always said that you can’t change the past and now suddenly changes his mind and wants to set off the nuke at the exact moment and place that the incident happened. Jughead IS the incident. They were always meant to set off the nuke that causes the incident that eventually causes the plane to crash that eventually causes them to go back and set off the nuke that causes the incident.
whatistime and henrygale- I think you are both on to something!
What if the Incident does to the Losties what the destruction of the Swan does to Desmond?
This interesting fact that faraday is related to widmore means that faraday’s research into time travel is just a sham.He might well have been to university, but he knows no more than anyone else about how things work with the special properties of the island.We should reconsider just how smart faraday actually is.It annoys me that he could be just stringing everyone along with his ridiculous ideas about the if’s and maybe’s.It’s true though is’nt it.Des told faraday whats what from the start.Trusting daniel would be a big mistake by all involved, because he really should be more honest about what’s actual fact, and stuff he’s just hazarding a guess at.I’m not sure if you remember the first time we saw daniel,he was busy intimidating one of his students at the university.Would that be an insight into what he’s really like.He’s someone who probably thinks he’s smarter than everyone else,and this island is just a new toy for this rich kid to play with.
i think everyones missing the point.
its not the past that you can or cannot change, its weather you rember you have changed it in the first place.
x
I find it interesting that two of the characters who are quoted within the show and without, full of themselves and of their certainty and knowledge – Daniel and Eloise BOTH reverse themselves and express doubt.
Daniel reverses (in a way) his own idea that what happened happened and the future is a street that cannot, etc.
Eloise, the fatalist who tells Desmond that time self-corrects, says in effect ‘So it was written, so it shall be done’ and this is your destiny and that is supposed to happen. The woman who knowingly gives birth to a son and raises him for the express purpose of getting him ON THAT CURSED ISLAND to send him to his death… Says ‘I do not know what will happen next’. This is where it ends for her. She has done what needed to be done and is left empty.
Imagine her shock if she hears a knock on her door and Charlotte stands there and tells her ‘You stupid woman’ I was sent here with a message from your son. He gave it to me when I was Six years old. He told me to tell you that you were wrong. We can change things and I am living proof of this’.
In essence, when Desmond showed up at the church and said that he had a message for her from Daniel, he was doing exactly that, wasn’t he?