There has been a lot of talk over who is good and who is bad.
Share with fellow Losties
Written by
Tas
16 thoughts on “Good and Evil – just too simplistic”
yes i agree it would be too simplistic forthis complex show to be about good vs evil…i wouldnt like that at all to be honest.
i want to see direct explanations of all the sci/fi and para-science elements they have thrown in the show. time/travel, e/m, synchronicity, the whispers the smoke etc
they use a lot of references from many histories and mythologies? why? whats the reason? and waht do egyptians have anythign to do with odysseus and ancient greek language..the egyptians had hieroglyphics not letters…i referr o jacob sowing that thing.
I think by using lots of different religions, mythologies, civilisations and literary references they are pointing to the universal questions humans ask about life. The ‘big’ questions and the many different ways we have had of explaining or trying to make sense of our world and beliefs. Though really different, there are also lots of similarities at their core. I think the writers are weaving together all this stuff to add richness to the story and ideas presented.
Exactly how I feel, all the talk of bad and good in the realm of LOST is pointless. Each character has been morally ambiguous from the episode they were introduced. LOST isn’t going to be good v.s evil because these moral assertions wont be concrete, each character will have good and bad in themselves. The duality imagery in the show seems to point at a unity between the two sides, more yin and yang than good and evil.
I partly agree with you. I still think that the ‘good’ and ‘evil’ sides are globally present, and that most of the characters can be linked to one of them in the end. Ofcourse it also depends on individual interpretation like you said.
Great post anyhow, Tas! Also, great thoughts about Locke’s words ‘dark’ and ‘light’ indicating grey shades!
Tas, I really like your theory and the thought process that you put into it.
I think everyone has been missing the point from the finale, in the sense that it is not as cut and dry, as it would appear.
By affixing specific labels, whether it is to biblical figures, or who is outright good or outright evil. As stone said above, there are many grey areas, to be considered.
Using the Backgammon game as a metaphor to illustrate the point, that perception, and opposing views more accurately depict the struggle between Jacob and his Nemesis is good. Therein, lies the greatest mysteries and debates!
We see a statue, and hieroglyphs and know there are ancient references, and the same applies to the Black Rock. Maybe some of it will tie in, and maybe some of it won’t.
The island itself is a strange anomaly that seems to defy the natural order of the constraints of time and space. A magical place, but one we may not ever fully know its origins.
The smoke monster is an entity that we see that can outright kill people for their sins when passing judgement, collect data when it reads them, or grant forgiveness when appropriate, as it did in Ben’s case.
There are some major issues concerning fate and destiny, free will, and redemption, morality, and other social issues, that we have seen the characters go through.
There are people such as Charles Widmore who have a vested interest in the outcome, of what is happening on ‘the island’, as does Ms. Hawking in addition.
What does all of this tell us? That we won’t find the answers to any of those questions, by affixing labels and limiting the possibilities.
Lost, IMO is a well written, cleverly thought out show. One of a kind, and it isn’t going to be solved by constricting our thinking.
I love your idea, that Jacob and his Nemesis, perhaps being from the future, as it would address some of those aspects of the show.
While that may not prove to be the case, I applaud you for opening up the realm of possibilities for discussion!
No one ever said it was good vs evil full stop. Most of the theories around consist of good vs evil AND free will vs fate AND faith vs not faith. The show is about two sides. One side most probably wants something good the other something bad. One side wants free will the other wants fate to prevail. One sides has faith in people or situations the other does not.
Of course it is not just about good vs evil, but the show will end up having people decide who is evil and who is not or it will be cut and clear(Jacob or the BSG).
But about the losties, the others, DHARMA initiative it is about being in a game much greater than their own lives. It is about doing something good, something bad, it is about having free will or being like robots, it is about having faith in other people or not.
That is the beauty. There is no Satan or God, there are things that composite a human being. And good or evil is a a part of human nature, you can’t deny this.
Well Levi-Strauss wrote the narrative theory that two things oppose, Binary opposistion. However when the binary is black and white it’s in it’s simplist form, it can mean absolutly anythink. So it’s always good never to presume it’s about good vs. evil. Especially when theres a quote saying ‘neither is right or wrong, they are just opposites’
Going back to what you say about the grey Shades, Each season there seems to be some new ‘evil’ appearing, season 1 the others, season 2 ben, season 3 juliet, season 4 the freighter ppl, season 5 this new ‘bob’ guy. Surely this demonstrates perfectly the good evil as shades of grey, because all of these characters are different in their level of evil (though i personally don’t think juliet is/was ..:'(.. evil). I also think that maybe the whole show is (sticking with religion and mythology) One Big yin and Yang sign..(the black and white ‘Bob’ and ‘jacob’, the backgammon bord, adam and eve (the rocks they were holding) the white light of the island and the black smoke monster..no one’s mentioned any sort of asian religion…thought i might through that in…
The problem is that the talk between Jacob and “Bob” gave some pretty strong pointers.
Fist and foremost it doesn’t indicate that “Bob” is indeed bad, it simply means that he doesn’t believe in the humanity as a whole. That alone already sets them both as being superior beings with superior understanding of things. Which doesn’t mean that they are necessarily GOD like creatures.
Also it does have a striking resemblance with Lucifer story. Where a GOD angel who envied the humans became the opposition. Trying to prove to GOD that humans were not worthy of all his love and stuff, etc.
The losties for sure are not all good, nor all bad. The are on the gray area, and Jacob’s point to “Bob” is exactly this. If ordinary people considered by most as bad can become good persons humanity deserves salvation. If not this must end and humanity be doomed, which is probably what “Bob” is after.
Both Jacob and “Bob” are playing their own game. We just can’t jump into conclusion because we are yet to see if on the very same way that Jacob influenced the lives of all of the main characters out of the island to a possible greater good, “Bob” haven’t done the same thing to put them on wrong track to try to ruin Jacob’s plans.
Jacob and “Bob” are the ones playing chess, the losties and everything surrounding them are their pieces.
Isn’t morality judged by our actions and not our intent? Kidnapping, killing, manipulation. Despite any ‘greater good’ that may be achieved, the way of getting there is just as important.
The show is full of instances where we have to question the morality of the characters we are seeing. Their intentions might be good, yet they do some pretty bad things to get there. Despite the best intentions, people are corrupted by their methods.
We lack many of the character’s motives, so it is understandable why we are in the dark here.
However, Lost is also full of absolutes. Black and white are absolutes and polar opposites. To swap white to black would require corruption. Black to white, redemption. Hence the discussion of good vs evil.
Jacob said, everything else is just progress and there is only one end. So white may become black before finally reverting to white. To me, this is one or the other, not in between.
i dont like this at all all this mrality duality ambiguity faithvs free will far too open.
no. i want concrete evidence and direct spell-out explanations of whatever theyve been showing me 5 years now.
not some pseudo-intellectual oneliners with hidden meanings for the pseudo-intellectuals / philosophers nopointers.
what is the island hwo it wa created what is jacob why does the island have these properties, the smoke…why does the smoke look to be related with egypt whats its purpose how did dharma find it how did they bring the equipment…yu cant bring 2,000ton lift cranes in a crappy submarine like the one they had.
what happens witht he submarine doe sit go througha stargate? how did the 04 go to 1977 and the others in 2007? who split them up? how is the split up possible?
and many many more….since the writers want my attention they should respect the viewer whose attnetion they require…..
also a proper explanation, a linear account of all the time travel stories on faraday eloise losties as dharma etc etc etc
i rememebr everyone hailing donnie darko and when i watched it closely the plot makes no sense at all. the hero prevents teh death of his mother and sister on the plane going to the dancething by returnign in time at the point where the artifact (jet turbine) fromt he future caused his death……..whichmeans that teh timeline where the jet turbine from his moms plane detaches and falls in his room never happened..so where did the jet turbine coem from….??? the future? but that future was cancelled…never happened…the plot had flaws basically
And certainly in the end Lost will make sense by they won’t spell it everything to you. For example they won’t explain you the Desmond effect. It can be implied very clearly.
You have to think, that’s the purpose of the show. Not to just suck on every detail they present to you and say “Ahh ok now I understand”. No my friend it does not work that way…you have to imply some things. If you don’t like implying and want everything served on a plate, Lost is not for you.
@ coco
I think a lot of those questions will be answered through the ‘sci-fi’ part of the show, but I’m not a quantum physicist so I’ve given up trying to figure out that stuff and am just trusting that it will all make sense to a degree by the end. I can try to figure out the ethical, moral questions and meaning in the characters motivations, intentions and actions, that’s just what I love talking about. But I agree, a lot of us will be very disappointed if too many of the plot questions remain unanswered. I guess it comes down to faith – do we have enough faith in the writers to give them to us.
Concrete evidence? It’s pretty hard when they hide, keep or disguise the reality from us. It’s much easier to approach these problems by trying to figure out the motives of the characters. Anything could be anyone, so its hard to be precise. Otherwise we are just guessing.
But from what I guess, Jacob is actually a good guy. Evidence = Creator. God is a good guy right, Christians tend to think so, god is the creator. Jacob creates a tapestry that takes him forever. This is ‘good’ act. Creation.
The other guy wants to kill him. Destruction is quick. It takes time to create, destruction takes seconds. So the other guy is evil. These are concrete clues to the underlying nature of the two.
Oh, not to mention the latest podcast where they go through all the characters and say good or evil. Surely this points to the story being a climactic struggle between good and evil. One or the other.
yes i agree it would be too simplistic forthis complex show to be about good vs evil…i wouldnt like that at all to be honest.
i want to see direct explanations of all the sci/fi and para-science elements they have thrown in the show. time/travel, e/m, synchronicity, the whispers the smoke etc
they use a lot of references from many histories and mythologies? why? whats the reason? and waht do egyptians have anythign to do with odysseus and ancient greek language..the egyptians had hieroglyphics not letters…i referr o jacob sowing that thing.
I think by using lots of different religions, mythologies, civilisations and literary references they are pointing to the universal questions humans ask about life. The ‘big’ questions and the many different ways we have had of explaining or trying to make sense of our world and beliefs. Though really different, there are also lots of similarities at their core. I think the writers are weaving together all this stuff to add richness to the story and ideas presented.
Exactly how I feel, all the talk of bad and good in the realm of LOST is pointless. Each character has been morally ambiguous from the episode they were introduced. LOST isn’t going to be good v.s evil because these moral assertions wont be concrete, each character will have good and bad in themselves. The duality imagery in the show seems to point at a unity between the two sides, more yin and yang than good and evil.
I partly agree with you. I still think that the ‘good’ and ‘evil’ sides are globally present, and that most of the characters can be linked to one of them in the end. Ofcourse it also depends on individual interpretation like you said.
Great post anyhow, Tas! Also, great thoughts about Locke’s words ‘dark’ and ‘light’ indicating grey shades!
Tas, I really like your theory and the thought process that you put into it.
I think everyone has been missing the point from the finale, in the sense that it is not as cut and dry, as it would appear.
By affixing specific labels, whether it is to biblical figures, or who is outright good or outright evil. As stone said above, there are many grey areas, to be considered.
Using the Backgammon game as a metaphor to illustrate the point, that perception, and opposing views more accurately depict the struggle between Jacob and his Nemesis is good. Therein, lies the greatest mysteries and debates!
We see a statue, and hieroglyphs and know there are ancient references, and the same applies to the Black Rock. Maybe some of it will tie in, and maybe some of it won’t.
The island itself is a strange anomaly that seems to defy the natural order of the constraints of time and space. A magical place, but one we may not ever fully know its origins.
The smoke monster is an entity that we see that can outright kill people for their sins when passing judgement, collect data when it reads them, or grant forgiveness when appropriate, as it did in Ben’s case.
There are some major issues concerning fate and destiny, free will, and redemption, morality, and other social issues, that we have seen the characters go through.
There are people such as Charles Widmore who have a vested interest in the outcome, of what is happening on ‘the island’, as does Ms. Hawking in addition.
What does all of this tell us? That we won’t find the answers to any of those questions, by affixing labels and limiting the possibilities.
Lost, IMO is a well written, cleverly thought out show. One of a kind, and it isn’t going to be solved by constricting our thinking.
I love your idea, that Jacob and his Nemesis, perhaps being from the future, as it would address some of those aspects of the show.
While that may not prove to be the case, I applaud you for opening up the realm of possibilities for discussion!
No one ever said it was good vs evil full stop. Most of the theories around consist of good vs evil AND free will vs fate AND faith vs not faith. The show is about two sides. One side most probably wants something good the other something bad. One side wants free will the other wants fate to prevail. One sides has faith in people or situations the other does not.
Of course it is not just about good vs evil, but the show will end up having people decide who is evil and who is not or it will be cut and clear(Jacob or the BSG).
But about the losties, the others, DHARMA initiative it is about being in a game much greater than their own lives. It is about doing something good, something bad, it is about having free will or being like robots, it is about having faith in other people or not.
That is the beauty. There is no Satan or God, there are things that composite a human being. And good or evil is a a part of human nature, you can’t deny this.
Well Levi-Strauss wrote the narrative theory that two things oppose, Binary opposistion. However when the binary is black and white it’s in it’s simplist form, it can mean absolutly anythink. So it’s always good never to presume it’s about good vs. evil. Especially when theres a quote saying ‘neither is right or wrong, they are just opposites’
Going back to what you say about the grey Shades, Each season there seems to be some new ‘evil’ appearing, season 1 the others, season 2 ben, season 3 juliet, season 4 the freighter ppl, season 5 this new ‘bob’ guy. Surely this demonstrates perfectly the good evil as shades of grey, because all of these characters are different in their level of evil (though i personally don’t think juliet is/was ..:'(.. evil). I also think that maybe the whole show is (sticking with religion and mythology) One Big yin and Yang sign..(the black and white ‘Bob’ and ‘jacob’, the backgammon bord, adam and eve (the rocks they were holding) the white light of the island and the black smoke monster..no one’s mentioned any sort of asian religion…thought i might through that in…
Duality, nothing new here.
The problem is that the talk between Jacob and “Bob” gave some pretty strong pointers.
Fist and foremost it doesn’t indicate that “Bob” is indeed bad, it simply means that he doesn’t believe in the humanity as a whole. That alone already sets them both as being superior beings with superior understanding of things. Which doesn’t mean that they are necessarily GOD like creatures.
Also it does have a striking resemblance with Lucifer story. Where a GOD angel who envied the humans became the opposition. Trying to prove to GOD that humans were not worthy of all his love and stuff, etc.
The losties for sure are not all good, nor all bad. The are on the gray area, and Jacob’s point to “Bob” is exactly this. If ordinary people considered by most as bad can become good persons humanity deserves salvation. If not this must end and humanity be doomed, which is probably what “Bob” is after.
Both Jacob and “Bob” are playing their own game. We just can’t jump into conclusion because we are yet to see if on the very same way that Jacob influenced the lives of all of the main characters out of the island to a possible greater good, “Bob” haven’t done the same thing to put them on wrong track to try to ruin Jacob’s plans.
Jacob and “Bob” are the ones playing chess, the losties and everything surrounding them are their pieces.
Isn’t morality judged by our actions and not our intent? Kidnapping, killing, manipulation. Despite any ‘greater good’ that may be achieved, the way of getting there is just as important.
The show is full of instances where we have to question the morality of the characters we are seeing. Their intentions might be good, yet they do some pretty bad things to get there. Despite the best intentions, people are corrupted by their methods.
We lack many of the character’s motives, so it is understandable why we are in the dark here.
However, Lost is also full of absolutes. Black and white are absolutes and polar opposites. To swap white to black would require corruption. Black to white, redemption. Hence the discussion of good vs evil.
Jacob said, everything else is just progress and there is only one end. So white may become black before finally reverting to white. To me, this is one or the other, not in between.
i dont like this at all all this mrality duality ambiguity faithvs free will far too open.
no. i want concrete evidence and direct spell-out explanations of whatever theyve been showing me 5 years now.
not some pseudo-intellectual oneliners with hidden meanings for the pseudo-intellectuals / philosophers nopointers.
what is the island hwo it wa created what is jacob why does the island have these properties, the smoke…why does the smoke look to be related with egypt whats its purpose how did dharma find it how did they bring the equipment…yu cant bring 2,000ton lift cranes in a crappy submarine like the one they had.
what happens witht he submarine doe sit go througha stargate? how did the 04 go to 1977 and the others in 2007? who split them up? how is the split up possible?
and many many more….since the writers want my attention they should respect the viewer whose attnetion they require…..
also a proper explanation, a linear account of all the time travel stories on faraday eloise losties as dharma etc etc etc
i rememebr everyone hailing donnie darko and when i watched it closely the plot makes no sense at all. the hero prevents teh death of his mother and sister on the plane going to the dancething by returnign in time at the point where the artifact (jet turbine) fromt he future caused his death……..whichmeans that teh timeline where the jet turbine from his moms plane detaches and falls in his room never happened..so where did the jet turbine coem from….??? the future? but that future was cancelled…never happened…the plot had flaws basically
No it didn’t. Donnie Darko had two universes. It made very much sense. Understand the concept first and then try to find flaws.
And certainly in the end Lost will make sense by they won’t spell it everything to you. For example they won’t explain you the Desmond effect. It can be implied very clearly.
You have to think, that’s the purpose of the show. Not to just suck on every detail they present to you and say “Ahh ok now I understand”. No my friend it does not work that way…you have to imply some things. If you don’t like implying and want everything served on a plate, Lost is not for you.
@ coco
I think a lot of those questions will be answered through the ‘sci-fi’ part of the show, but I’m not a quantum physicist so I’ve given up trying to figure out that stuff and am just trusting that it will all make sense to a degree by the end. I can try to figure out the ethical, moral questions and meaning in the characters motivations, intentions and actions, that’s just what I love talking about. But I agree, a lot of us will be very disappointed if too many of the plot questions remain unanswered. I guess it comes down to faith – do we have enough faith in the writers to give them to us.
Concrete evidence? It’s pretty hard when they hide, keep or disguise the reality from us. It’s much easier to approach these problems by trying to figure out the motives of the characters. Anything could be anyone, so its hard to be precise. Otherwise we are just guessing.
But from what I guess, Jacob is actually a good guy. Evidence = Creator. God is a good guy right, Christians tend to think so, god is the creator. Jacob creates a tapestry that takes him forever. This is ‘good’ act. Creation.
The other guy wants to kill him. Destruction is quick. It takes time to create, destruction takes seconds. So the other guy is evil. These are concrete clues to the underlying nature of the two.
Oh, not to mention the latest podcast where they go through all the characters and say good or evil. Surely this points to the story being a climactic struggle between good and evil. One or the other.