My problem with time travel
now i have my own problems with time travel. if you go back to influence something, to MAKE SURE it happened some way, you don’t really have to. Whatever happened, happened, said the nervous physicist. take for example Hurley’s desire to “help” George Lucas write Empire. lets SAY he does mail the script to Lucas, who likes it, and immediately makes Empire, which young Hurley will eventually see so he can go back in time and help Lucas write Empire (i hope i havent lost you).
my problem with this is that FIRST Lucas wrote Empire, THEN Hurley saw it, THEN Hurley went back in time to “help Lucas on his way”. BUT THE THING IS LUCAS WROTE THE DAMN MOVIE IN THE FIRST PLACE FOR HURLEY TO SEE IT AND GET THE CRACKPOT IDEA. so my main argument is that whatever happened, IT HAD TO ORIGINALLY HAPPEN SOMEHOW.
when Locke told Richard to go into the Jungle and help the man (himself) that comes out, we get the answer to the question we had in episode 5.1- how did Richard know? what does he mean “You WILL tell me?”. but Locke would eventually GET to that point where he tells Richard to go into the jungle ONLY IF he gets his leg healed. so FIRST he would have to get his leg healed SOMEHOW to be able to tell Richard that, right? (please dont consider the fact that the Locke who told Richard to go into the jungle was in fact Mr. Black).
Miles makes an excellent point when he says “Maybe THIS (the nuke) is the incident. maybe the best thing to do is nothing.” it was beautifully, if rashly put, and a thought that had crossed my mind. but again. the incident HAD TO HAVE HAPPENED for Oceanic 815 to crash, and then for Jack to leave, to then want to come back to the Island, and then for him to want to drop a nuke in there… and then to cause the incident? but wait, the incident already happened, BEFORE JACK WENT TO THE ISLAND IN THE FIRST PLACE!
this “it had to happen someway first” problem of mine is recurrent in many time travel works. how many of you have read Harry Potter? remember Prisinor of Azkaban? Harry is surrounded by Dementors, then he sees his father who chases them away. when he goes back in time some hours later, he goes looking for his father, realizes it was himself, and conjures the Patronus. but first he would he would have had to get away from the dementors to go back into time to conjure the patronus!!!!!
in the film De Ja Vu (with Denzel Washington), they present a more likeable theory. “Whatever happened, happened” theory is disbelieved, based on the presence of some non scientific factors (faith and God). the theory is time is a river, and flows only in one direction. but if we can cause a significant enought event, we can cause the river to change direction, and the original branch of the river (the branch originating from the point of change) will cease to exist. take the day of the original explosion as Day 0 (and lets say Denzel is 0 days old), and four days later when he goes back in time as Day 4 (when he is 4 days old). so the boat blows up on Day 0, Denzel gets in on this mission, Denzel goes back in time ON DAY 4 and saves the day. IN THAT ORDER. and THEN the river has changed course and we get a NEW DAY 0, with no blown up boat. however, as we see towards the end, both 4 day old and 0 day old were alive at the same time (after Denzel goes back from day 4 to day 0). 4 day old Denzel dies, and Paula Patton meets 0 day old Denzel, who is none the wiser. in the car, 0 day old Denzel seems to have a strange feeling, some kind of De Ja Vu, which he eventually just shrugs off (this is what i think happend to Faraday as he watched the news of Oceanic 815 being found, and him crying and “not knowing why”).
in any case, the “River changing course” theory holds some sway with me. but that whole going back in time “to make sure something happens” is stupid, pointless, mindboggling, and wrong. because the face of the matter is- IT ALREADY HAPPENED! SO WHY DO YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE! so lets hope the variables play their part right. because if they can change that river’s course, and they DO end up in LAX in 2004, then 5 seasons were for NOTHING. but thats for another debate.
so, any physicists out there that can provide some insight here?
Yes, nice comments on time travel. But fictional time travel follows whatever rules the writer wants it to follow. You cannot expect all fictional time travel to subscribe to your own belief of what the consequences of time travel would be.
There are many physicists who disagree on what the consequences of traveling to the past would be.
chaotixmm, if you are looking for a good interpretation of the ‘time loop’ there is a great episode from Star Trek the Next Generation, entitled, ‘Cause and Effect’.
This episode is in Season 5, Episode 18.
There is also a very good movie about time travel, that another member, losts-columbo recommended to me, which was extremely insightful.
Hope that is helpful!
Their is also a good episode of red dwarf in series 7 called ouroboros that goes into this, lister goes back in time and becomes his own father this shadows the same thing you are talking about here RED DWARF RULES
I’ve been noticing that a lot of people have been having issues with time travel lately. I’m currently fleshing out something that I’ll post soon that reflects how I view the subject and it’s based on certain similarities in time travel stories I’ve read or viewed over the years. I hope it will make things simpler for people. Introducing time travel always seems to open a can of worms. Overall though, BanLinus is correct, writers will invent there own rules.
There’s an excellent time travel movie out on DVD you guys should check out called “Time Crimes”
I just don’t think you can use any other fictional work to try to make sense of time travel in Lost. An episode of Star Trek may be an excellent example of a time loop, but the Lost writers may decide to do a loop totally different.
Deja Vu is the perfect example of writers making up the rules as they go. By the way, I really liked the movie. However, they follow the ‘Whatever Happened, Happened’ rule right up to the end and then switched. It worked well as fiction, but really doesn’t make much sense.
@BenLinus
yes, i think i may have been too vindictive about what i think the rules of time travel should be, sorry about that. i just really find that when in some stories “something happens”, and someone goes back in time, only to realize they caused it. i think ive explained why.
and that was my main argument, and how De Ja Vu provided a better view of it, that is, it happens one way first then you can go back and CHANGE it, but not go back and realize you were the original CAUSE of it BECAUSE YOU WENT BACK. and i mentioned it because i think BOTH things are going on in Lost (the whole man of science, man of faith thing all over again).
so yes, the Losties can (according to the De Ja Vu theory) change the future. but then Sun and Jin never patch up. Sawyer never kills the demon of the man who took his parents (and literally kill Anthony Cooper). Jack never gets in the position to lead that he was destined to be in (“He walks among us but he is not one of us” i believe means “he is our leader, even though he is unlike any of us, but he must be that way to lead us”.)
but again, thats another debate. surely the writers have SOMETHING up their sleeve which is why i can forgive Juliet for setting off the bomb!
thanks for your input on time travel things. i do like time travel fiction, and will be sure to check that stuff out.