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What really changed?

There is soooooooo much talk about alternate timelines right now…which I dont fully disagree with…but the most prominate defense to this is Dharmaville being different after the Ajira crash.

I have some HUGE problems with this thought.

1)Nothing that we see in the building where Christian Shepard shows Sun the picture is different enough to be concrete evidence.

2)Bens house still stands where it did.

3)ALEXs ROOM is still where Ben remembers it.

4)The monster still knows that Ben killed Alex. (I know that can be argued by simply saying it lives out of time as we know it)

Many of these points still involve the others existing much after the explosion, and Ben still taking Alex just as he did. The others still taking Dharmaville, just a they did.

I dont like the idea of two Lockes beig used as evidence…because there are not two Lockes. There is a Locke and a being posing as Locke.

Most importantly, the small details. Remember when the Losties found the canoe, and Locke, Sawyer, Faraday, Charolette, Miles, and Juliet are having a water shootout?
Well they found an Ajira waterbottle in the boat when they first took it.
Did they “stumble” into an alternate timeline before it happened…no…they went to the future before it happenedfrom their perspective.

I want to believe in the alternate timeline….I just dont believe that is what we are seeing in the 2007 that everyone thinks is alternate.

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Written by

A.E.S.

Abbot Enheduanna Schwarzschild

48 thoughts on “What really changed?

  1. Hey AES, many thanks for posting on this subject. One of the main things which should be noted is, why some of ‘the losties’ flashed to the 1970’s and some to 2007.

    According to Lostpedia, Ms Hawking told Jack that if as many of the details on #815 couldn’t be recreated on #316, the outcome would be unpredictable.

    She stated further that failure to completely comply with Eloise’s instructions resulted in some passengers experiencing time travel before impact. While most of the circumstances were recreated, not enough were for the expected crash, and complications arose resulting in four of the passengers waking up in 1977, rather than 2007.

    I concur with the majority of your thoughts posted here.

    The only other thought that I have regarding the two John Locke’s are, that in fact they may both be John Locke. We do not have enough details at this stage to make a ‘factual’ determination of that, and/or how what occurred between Jacob and Fake Locke. I totally expect the writers to pull out a few surprises.

    Nicely done!

  2. AES, pertaining to the barracks specifically, ‘the others’ abandoned them in 2005, in anticipation of ‘the freighter’.

    Lostpedia states the following: Locke and his group temporarily settled in the Barracks, believing it to be one of the most secure areas remaining on the Island. This illusion was shattered, however, by an attack on the Barracks by the freighter mercenaries.

    Since that time, it appears the Barracks has been completely abandoned. After the emergency landing of Ajira Airlines Flight 316 in 2007, Frank, Sun, Ben and Locke returned to the Barracks which appeared to be suffering from three years of age and neglect. Why the Others did not resume occupation of the facility is unknown.

    Hopefully, this information will help to demystify some of the confusion regarding the state the Barracks were found in.

    In all fairness, I can certainly see why people might question the dilapidated conditions when Frank, Sun, Locke & Ben revisited them in 2007.

  3. I’ve been thinking about Richard alot when it comes to the alt time question. I don’t know if he was ever put into a situation where he could have said to Ben or Locke “What are you talking about? That never happened.” I know he didn’t say it in season five.

  4. I think what we are seeing is the timelines merged that’s why arteracts from both are around. The 2007 dv is not just dilapidated and if the details that have been mentioned heaps lately aren’t enough to say that something has changed in some way then I don’t know what is. Agree with dabs there is not anywhere near enough evidence to make a statement about Locke that isn’t just opinion, we don’t know.

  5. ” …if the details that have been mentioned heaps lately aren’t enough to say that something has changed in some way then I don’t know what is…”

    This is why Iposted in the debates section.

    I know there arer “details” floating around. I would like to know what are being used as evidence or testimony towards there being a change in the timline that Ajira crashed in.

    I am prepared for the details.

  6. In Dharmaville in 2007 when Sun and Frank arrive there are Dharma logos on a a number of the doors, the windows are boarded up (which they weren’t in 2004 as they all left after Alex was killed and smokie chased off the freighter guys). Frank and Sun go into the reception room which was ‘decorated’ in the same way as in 1977 when the DI were using it, with the DI signs up (inoculations) and the dividers are there still as well as the DI welcome photos. They showed DV in 1977 and 2007 in the same episode (Namaste) as a way to highlight the similarities, similarities which shouldn’t be there if the others had lived there for a decade or so. Interestingly Ben’s house was decorated the same as in 2004 BUT, it wasn’t how it was left. When they left after the death of Alex, Ben’s house had been turned upside down with furniture everywhere to block doors etc… in 2007 everything was back in place.
    They showed an extended medium close up of the Risk board which is being used to say that things are the same. In 2004 when Hurley, Sawyer and Locke are playing, there are 2 mugs, 1 plate and a glass of orange juice by the board. In 2007 there are 2 plates and 1 mug. I know some people are saying it’s just sloppy set dressing, but if they chose to use that particular shot, they did it for a reason, and if they wanted it the be the same, they have shots of the 2004 Risk board to match it to. The producers know we go through the details and it’s a perfect way to throw in a subtle clue.
    Some people have said that the room Sun and Frank go into is down at the docks so the others never took down the DI stuff. My evidence against this would be that it is definately the same room that Kate and Jack get their jumpsuits in 1977. The recruits are driven there by combie (why would they be driven if the building was at the dock?) The building also clearly has a huge stone fireplace in it, the other building where a fireplace can be seen inside is the rec room where Kate in 2004 and Sawyer in 1974 are kept prisoner, this building is clearly in the centre of DV as Kate looks out the window to see the others leaving their homes. On top of the fact that they have never mentioned two seperate Dharmavilles.
    I know this all sounds super detailed and how could I possibly have seen that much, but I have the episodes of Lost on my computer so I can jump from one to the other and to specific scenes, grab screen shots really easily and doing this has given me a lot more detail than I noticed the first few times through. I was actually anti alt timeline until someone else mentioned this and I went through the episodes myself. It is too much and too detailed to be a mistake. Something is going on, something has changed and yet other things are the same, like the losties camp beach still being there. As I said in my original comment, my personal thoughts are that the timelines split and merged with the Ajira crash and that for some reason (the island is pretty special) physical evidence from both timeline is still there. To use the river analogy, if you change the course of a river, the evidence of where it originally flowed is still there in a dry river bed. I’d also like to say that this isn’t the only evidence from the show that tends to back up a change of some sort.

  7. Richard claims to have seen the 77’ers die.

    And then there is the numbers being broadcasted that can be heard in the Ajira cockpit right after the flash, before the landing.

  8. What if Alex is still alive when Ben kills Jacob? Perhaps Smokey just scanned Ben’s mind and realized that Ben thinks Alex is dead. That might explain Jacob’s “what about you?”.

  9. I understand your perspective, and its going to be hard to turn me for the simple reason that plates, glasses, gameborads, and whatever else can easily be moved around.
    We are not talking a couple of days, weeks or months…the shots you are referring to are from what I can see, all things that could be simply moved/changed over the three years that the 06 and company was off the island.

    Remember…Richard and the others didnt timejump. They very well could have returned at some point.
    Anyone could have ended up moving those things in three years.
    The others could have returned, maybe someone else found the island….for all we know, we could go back and revisit those three years in the finale and find out how things get moved around.
    If things changed that much for the DI, why are Richard and the others still alive and kicking awaiting the return of John Locke and company?
    Wouldnt there be more signifigant island changes than the only sturdy villiage on the entire island?

    -The others were building the runway, which now exists.
    -The others lived and Dharma didnt…which still seemed to happen.
    -Alex lived in the same house, in the same village, in the same room.
    -The monster/MIB/or whatever mimics people to trick others seems partial to using dead people as the “ghost” subject…which is done with Alex.
    -THE HATCH DOOR is still in the old CAMP that the Losties used.
    -SUN foound CHARLIES RING!!!

    I get the cups and saucers, and I swear Im not trying to just say Im right…but there are much more signifigant details that ultimatly lead to fact…which is what we saw with our own eyes. I get the trickery used, and to say “the timelines converged” is not saying that there are two alternate timelines being layed on the table for us to see…”converging of timlines” is nothing more than going back and changing the past…

    Which up to this point, although I believe it will ultimatley happen, I do not believe has, because of the major details that I listed above in these comments, specifically the last two.

  10. Ilie, Richard thinks he saw them die…who knows if they died…or jumped…

    The numbers are something that I think no matter what happens, they are heard.

    The plane was in 2007, dropped a couple of losties off in 1977….could have picked up a quick radio transmission…
    Remember when Hurley hears the old music playing on the radio…that was in 2004…you dont get a clear receptive channel like that on the lost island…

    You pick it up by coming just close enough to an anomily that carries many characteristics of a black hole…one being the tranmission of radio waves…

  11. So the others came back to DV and put up the old Dharma signs etc… that doesn’t make sense to me. On another post I used a river analogy to explain how I think the physical artefacts from both timelines can exist, because, yes, the losties beach camp is still there
    Picture a river flowing down to an ocean. If you went halfway up the river and diverted it to another course for a bit then let it find it’s way back to the easiest path to the ocean, you would have two riverbeds, both with evidence of the river flowing down them. I think this is how they may explain evidence from both timelines, time has flowed down each of them leaving it’s imprint on the island. The arguments to dismiss the physical evidence from the show seems to rely on people coming back to DV, either the others or someone else and putting it back the way it was in 1977, that just doesn’t ring true to me, but hey if you are happy to write it off at least you’ve looked at the evidence and we don’t have too long to wait.

  12. AES, but there is something different about Richard, isn’t there? He much have realized that it was a pretty old photo, don’t you think? But he didn’t seem to react very strongly to the fact that some of the Losties were suddenly in the 70s (or so).

  13. So we pretty much know that something changed, since Richard now remembers the 1977 Losties. This most likely means that a lot of other things changed as well.

    I suppose that this doesn’t necessarily mean that there now are two parallel alternative time lines, one where Richard remembers and one where he doesn’t. It could simply be that the reality where Richard remembers replaces the reality from earlier seasons (i.e. “whatever happened didn’t happen”).

    But the interpretation that there is now a new time line is somehow more satisfactory, I think.

  14. Richard remembers John.
    His relationship with Ben seems to have not changed.
    Do we see these buildings in 2004?

    There is still Dharma Garb everywhere.
    Every station has Dharma stuff inside.

    I will do some digging to see if any turns up in theprevious seasons 2004 time period, because if it is, it would in a way discredit the evidence you present regarding the Dharma items.

    Are there 2004 shots of this building? That would be helpful.

    Understand, Im not trying to rule out the idea of alternate timelines being prestented in the last couple of episodes, I just need to be sure before I can jump on the Alt bandwagon.

    Alexs Room, The Hatch Door, and Charlies Ring are still bigger evidence of the same timeline we saw already occur.

    And I just can not buy into the river idea…I get it. It makes sense. I just dont think its the correct solution.

    Its one or the other. Its an alternate timeline, or the same one…that I will bend on if more proof can be dealt…but not the merging…not in that way.

  15. There are a few things I dont fully understand that is being used as evidence, which with my understanding may swing my decision.

    -The signifigance of Richards reaction to the photo…He DID meet the losties that we see in the picture in the 70s, right?
    …why would the picture then suprise him?

  16. Ive been through every episode I can think of that showed DV in 2004 and there is no evidence of any Dharma logos, signs at all. As Ive said before I was anti alt timeline and have been very thorough in looking for evidence against the changes, it’s not there. Look all you want AES, dv is different in 2007 from what it was in 2004. Why this is, none of us can be sure at this point. What I am 120% certain of is that in 2007 there is the physical evidence of two timelines- the one we saw from season 1 and another that has for one resulted in differences in dv. At least the alt timeline theories try to explain or take this into account. To dismiss it is like a kid with their hands over their ears going “no,no no no no, I don’t want to hear it.” you won’t find anything that shows the dv changes in 2004. I had a huge discussion with lilboyblue in my last postand he theory on the Ajira numbers, he couldn’t come up with anything to discount the changes and boy did he try.
    On Richard, I personally haven’t used him as evidence for a change, but if he saw them in 1977, saw them all die, it seems odd that he didn’t mention it in any interactions with losties through the first five seasons. He wasn’t all funny with Sawyer when he told him about cooper, and wouldn’t you be if you’d seen him die in 1977? Dontthink it proved an alt timeline but does continue to raise questions about what’s going on.

  17. When did Richard talk to Sawyer about Cooper?

    Tas, I understand your thinking you see a difference in one building decorative features…but please spare me the comparisons of a child…I do not appreciate it.

    What I am doing is telling you that your magnifying glass may be a bit large, and I think you are incorrect.
    If you dont think that Charlies ring and the hatch door being where they were is more evidence than a dharma sign in a building we have not seen in 30 years or cups and saucers, so be it…but spare me the petty analogy.
    I dont buy the riverbed idea, because to me it doesnt make sense or fit, and my evidence is more critical and more solid than yours…so unless you have a hatch or a DS ring up your sleeve, you should probably start working on the riverbed idea, because I think my evidence may be more conclusive….
    Do you not agree with the ring and the hatch?
    Are you THAT sold on the riverbed idea?

  18. I don’t mean to come off rude, I just didn’t appreciate that remark, and apologize for seeming overdefensive….I want to believe you, I really do…I just cannot from what I have seen…

  19. i 1 million percent agree with you AES. other evidence for nothing changing include…pierre chang’s arm getting injured at the swan site, faraday still warning young charlotte, ben not dying,etc.

    richard could be suprised by the photo because other 815ers that he didn’t meet in the past like hurley were in the photo. richard could have seen them die in another time since i doubt the time travelling is over…and even if not could have assumed they died because they went off to blow up a hydrogen bomb.

  20. I am finding this conversation a bit condescending rather that rude “your thinking you see”. If I’m imagining it, show me how I’m wrong, you haven’t because you can’t becasue the changes are there, they were specifically chosen to be set dressed and shown like that. I used a child’s analogy because this is frustrating, you aren’t responding to me based on what I’ve actually said. I am not saying the ring and hatch weren’t there ot aren’t important, I’m saying the opposite, they are there and so is the changed DV, so HOW? I’m not dismissing either side of the eveidece but, like the other alt timeliners, attempting to used ALL of the evidence to develop a theory. You don’t get the riverbed analogy, I am using it to explain how evidence of BOTH timelines exist, you keep missing that point for whatever reason. I’m sure you can understand why I am frustrated and feel a bit like I’m talking to a kid, you’re not arguing with ME, your arguing with what you think or want me to have said.
    I like the theories that are attempting to explain the anomolies on the island and you asked for more info, I gave it to you in insane detail, take it or leave it but dont say I think I saw it (its condescending).
    This next bit may come across as rude, but, for someone who has been set up as a bit of an expert, not knowing about when Richard gave Sawyer the file on Anthony Cooper, which leads to Cooper’s death seems a big miss to me, what else have you missed while telling me I’m wrong?
    Your evidence is part of mine (I know about the ring and the hatch…that’s why I think there are TWO timelines rather than just 1 that’s been changed, that’s the point of my arguements), but you are deciding to ignore other evidence – that is not more critical or solid because you are choosing to ignore what been shown in the actual show that we are discussing.
    To eko, to contextualise how I’m thinking about the changes, they ‘can’ change, but that doesn’t mean that they do. To change what happens requires someone to know how to and to be able to change their own internal conditioning. I think Jack always tried to blow up the bomb, thats what he does, fixes things. They always drilled into the energy, huge magnetism, Chang’s arm hurt, Ben was saved before any thought of actively changing anything happened. Dan and Charlotte, knowing the possible future, Dan weighed up whether to get Charlotte off the island to probably die there later, or let her stay and die as a kid (if the bomb went off). So he chose to talk to her, no one forced him, he chose to knowing the consequences. he knew he could chnage it, but decided not too. Different to if someone else made him do it, Dan made a choice, it was just the same one he’d made first time round because he loves her and wanted to give her the longest life he could, even if it is shorter than he would have liked. I feel that the big change is Juilet, without her changing her mind and having a brain snap, the bomb would just be sitting at the bottom of a big hole, her actions are what may (haven’t seen that yet) have caused the bomb to explode, just Juilet.
    Personally don’t think there will be more time flashes like season 5, they’ve done that and it would be really repetitive and I think they are more inventive as writers to repeat a plot device like that.

  21. Tas, in your earlier comment to A.E.S. you said “He wasn’t all funny with Sawyer when he told him about cooper” – to which A.E.S. asked you when Richard told Sawyer about Cooper.

    Then you say “This next bit may come across as rude, but, for someone who has been set up as a bit of an expert, not knowing about when Richard gave Sawyer the file on Anthony Cooper, which leads to Cooper’s death seems a big miss to me, what else have you missed while telling me I’m wrong?”

    It’s you who is actually wrong. Richard actually gave LOCKE a file on SAWYER which stated who was responsible for the death of his parents – COOPER. Which is why Locke brought Sawyer into the room where Cooper was held and killed him when Sawyer realised who he was.

  22. Tas, I understand what you’re trying to get at with the whole “Dharmaville is different in 2007 than 2004 etc.” but as you’re using this as evidence of an Alt. Timeline, this could also be used as evidence of someone else living in Dharmaville between 2004-2007.

    You can use this information to backup your claims that what we’re seeing in 2007 is an alt. timeline, but this information could be used to explain a whole lot of other things.

    It isn’t proof.

    You’re right, I don’t want there to be an Alt. Timeline. But that isn’t the reason I’m disagreeing with you. I disagree with you because the evidence you’re providing isn’t proof.

    Simple as that.

  23. I’d also like to add to the discussion about Richard and how he doesn’t seem to acknowledge Sawyer et al in 2004 as if he’d met them before.

    We know that from at least 1954 Richard is aware of time travel on the island. He meets Locke who tells him he’s from the future and then disappears infront of his eyes.

    What makes me believe that this isn’t an alt. timeline is the fact that Richard and The Others were excited to have Locke back on the island. I think in the same episode (or around that time) that Richard gave Locke the file on Sawyer, Cindy actually told Locke that everyone was excited that he was there.

    At that time we didn’t know why. But now we do. Locke came to The Others camp in 1954 declaring he’s from the future and that he’s the leader of The Others, and there he is, 50 years later, living up to what he “prophesised”.

    This to me suggests that what we are seeing in 2007 isn’t an alt. timeline because Richard clearly knows who Locke is when he is reunited with him. And for Richard to know him, all that stuff that had happened in 2004 and everything prior to it had to have happened.

  24. Tas, the childs analogy was uncalled for…if you cant see that alone…then you are Lost…

    As for fighting your disagreements…I dont know what else to say…I misunderstood your meaning of Sawyers and Richards encounter…which now undersanding…Trinity has pretty much covered that one…honestly…Trinity covered many of the points that you make…most importantly, your proof isnt proof…its not fact, its what you believe happened.
    My Ring and Door are proof that the current timeline is the same as the one we have been seeing the entire show.

    Oh…and as I said several times….I get your riverbed analogy…I read your theory…two different timelines existing on the same island at the same time…I just dont agree. Its not that it not possible. Its not being rude or condecending…I just disagree.

    None of my comments to you were at all condecending (until your child comment). I just dont know what more you want me to say. I debated your facts. I disagree with the riverbed thought. We just dont agree, plain and simple.

    I was not in any way condecending or rude to you until you felt the need to drop your “child analogy” on me. If so..PLEASE show me where if I was.

    Im not IGNORING FACTS…Im DISAGREEING with ideas.

    As Trinity said, it could very well mean that someone else was living there during the THREE years that the Ajira Losties were off the island.

    And although I will more than happily do this everyday on this post (its in “DEBATES” for a reason), I have to tell you, your not going to get far with me by speaking in the manner that you are.

    Your riverbed analogy is exactly what you originally posted it as, a theory. A good one actually…just not one that I agree with.
    I didnt post in your theory, because much as you have criticized people for getting angry for disagreeing…it is exactly what you are doing here.

    The riverbed analogy is your idea… You thought of it. So when you are right…you can just throw it in my face. You will be a TheoriesOnLost hero, and shall have your name sewn to a flag and planted on the highest mountain on the island.
    Ok…so now Im being a tad condecending…

    I hope you realize I do this for fun and relaxation. I complimented you earlier, and again in this comment. I am happy to have someone to debate such a subject in a way that is so full of passion for ones personal idea. And I swear, I am not being condecending, sarcastic, or rude with my most recent words in this paragraph.
    I think you have good thoughts, and I couldnt be more happy you have chosen a side. I unfortunatly will be standing on the opposite for this particular subject though…

    Nobody on this or my other theory “Ring around the roses” is acting out in anger or frustraion, and I urge you to follow the examples…Ive been there myself…and I was wrong. But you cant change the past, what happened happened right ;]
    I am willing to debate,.but will not stand to be insulted. I hope you understand.

    Also, on the note of me being an expert…

    I in no way, shape, or form, have ever said that I was an expert in anything on this site.
    I dont flex my knowledge, my education, my standards, or anything that would put me above or below anyone else on this site. Never have, never will. It is a childish thing to do, and I am above it…

    …but if there were an expert here…a real Lost expert. Someone who knows many of the minor details on Lost without having to go back, look at episodes, use Lostpedia…
    They would probably reply something along the lines of…
    “If we are getting into the miniscule details of Lost…the true nooks and crannies, we have to go back further than last season. We have to examine all that is Dharma. We have to think of ANY minor single detail, any picture, any video that may help explain why Dharma signs are in DV.”

    In which case I wouldnt be able to contain myself from asking…
    “What about the ComicCon video of Dr Pierre Chang begging the watcher to reinstitute the Dharma initiative as soon as possible…couldnt that explain why Dharma garb is splattered everywhere? Someone listened?”

  25. Trinity and Eko, a great thank you for the agreements, and especially backup on this subject.
    Trinity…Cant thank you enough for the backup…you are in my head…stay there please…

  26. The problem here is that some people seem to want 100% “proof” before they’ll accept a theory is valid. The most anyone can give for a “good” theory is evidence from the show.

    What I don’t get is where people either think that theories have to be mutually exclusive or that evidence X overrides evidence Y.

    There are things that Tas pointed out that were put there by the producers ON PURPOSE – that’s FACT. If you can’t work out why that is, that’s fine, but I don’t see why you not being able to make something of it makes it invalid.

  27. Ok….Sam and Steve live in the middle of the country for a year…Sam moves out and for three years doesnt ever see the house again.

    After three years, Sam returns to find Steve gone, and everything completely different…does Sam assume Steve did it?

    Possibly. It makes the most sense to Sam because they dont know or have seen anyone else ever there…but there is a possibilty thaht maybe Steve rented it. Maybe someone squatted. Maybe someone…lives there now…who knows.

    The point is, that although its logical for Sam to assume steve did it, but its just as logical to assume it was someone they would not know.

  28. I can’t read all this but im sorry Tas, Richard never gave Sawyer the file on Cooper, he gave it to Locke who tricked Sawyer into meeting Cooper at the black rock (said he had kidnapped Ben)

  29. AES; Just to address your points. There is not a single shot of Dharma signs in Dharmaville in a single episode of the show until post Ajira. The Comicon video isn’t canon. It’s from a plot thread that never happened due to the Writers strike, etc. It’s explained in the podcasts.

  30. AES – By the producers hand. Anyone who has worked in film or TV knows that things are either included out of 1. purposeful choice, 2. ease of production, or 3. accident. Signs in Dharmaville, the Risk board and the Ajira numbers recording etc. can’t be #2, so they are either put there very specifically or members of the crew screwed up. Any amount of theorising will prove jack until we see more of the show.

  31. Im sorry…I just dont see this.
    I saw the “processing sign” broken…but thats about it.

    Bens house IS busted up…If you look at the shot in dead is dead, you will see the window broken out from when Hurley threw the chair through to let Sawyer in with Claire…No Dharma signs at all on the house.

  32. I get you…like I said…thats why its in theories…you can be narky, Im a big boy…but derogatory remarks are cancer for a site like this…they spread quickly.

    You are doing nothing but debating sir…

  33. Good to hear! 🙂

    If you don’t see these things or want to attribute anything to them, there’s nothing I can say.

    So where will I be able to pick up this flag you speak of in a few weeks? 😉

  34. lol, I will sew it myself…

    Seriously though….Im going to go through tonight…again…and try and find these things.

    Specific episodes and times would help the cause…

    If I see something worth mentioning…either direction…I will surely bring it to light.

    I hope that you can at least look at the perspectives from myself and several others here, and try to see the points we are trying to make.

    There were several her that I didnt get until people left comments.
    I like Trinitys comments about the subject towards the end…

    …good sport jimbo…

  35. It’s been a vewry long and brain draining week at work for me, so if this comes out all muddled forgive me.

    I never said this stuff was fact, that my explanation is the only one, I have always said these are my thoughts, AES asked me for more detail, which I gave and has then said that I’m just imagining is or thinking that I saw it. The evidence is in the show, it just is. How or why or what the possible reasons for it are up for discussion, I have an idea – my frustration is coming from people asking for evidence, hearing it and then telling me it’s not there, not important (I wasn’t talking about your theory AES and me saying this and being asked to explain and justify over and over again).
    Facts aren’t what is proven, in science you can’t really prove anything, they are what hasn’t been disproven yet (that the world was flat was considered fact until disproven) you can’t disprove the evidence is there in the show.
    The ring and the hatch are also not proof that there is only 1 timeline being carried out here, just that the first timeline still exisits / happened. There are anomolies here and saying that someone just came back and put DV back the way it was in the 70s and then abandoned it again, somehow found all the old signs again doesn’t ring true and I don’t see how it fits in with any of the bigger picture theories that the non-alters out there have put forth. it gets used in these discussions but as yet I haven’t seen many come up with a theory that has covered the anomolies. On the Steve/Sam thing, if Steve had been murdered, you wouldn’t assume he’d been back though would you?
    On the Richard thing, yes I am wrong . I didn’t use Richard as an example of an alt timeline just tried to answer someone else’s comment and I think it has been attributed to my thinking so I didn’t research it properly, so apologies for that and the comment to AES.

  36. All good Tas…

    So…I rewatched some scenes today…

    Ok, I see the “processing sign”(knew it was there), and the Dharma sign on the door to the building (missed it before)…

    I was looking for the Risk Board…I didnt see that in ’07.

    I looked for any other Dharma signs, and again came up a little short.

    Anywhere specific that I could find these things would be great to know.
    I really do want to know if these things are there because it does make a difference.

    Its not like Im trying to say “Im right and your wrong!”, that is not it at all.

    What Im trying to do is determine the best possible idea in which to base theories on.

    I dont see what we are debating here as a theory at all. I think this is one of those things that get beaten to death with argument, and I really would like to determine an outcome on this site BEFORE the new season airs.

    remember Tas, I am the one who shouted from the rooftops that I believe they were going to change the past on this site. So for me to disagree with you on this subject is a step for me here.

    Its not so much that I dont agree…because after the episode with Christian and the picture originally aired, I was right there saying things are different…but after watching the finale, its hard for me to see that anything is different…

    So I am truly looking to be wrong on this one.
    I still stand by decree last season that there is a looping effect going on, and that it will take Desmond Hume to actually change something in the past.

    Again, anywhere that these things can be found, specific episodes, time in, anything is helpful.

    Truth is, I dont really think anyone came back and put Dharma garb up…its possible, and I know that the CC vid I mention is not canon, but it was meant to be canon and was removed due to certain aspects regarding Dans voice. I still think that it holds ground, and could point to another clue…maybe not the best back up here though.

    On the note of asking for evidence…what am I supposed to do?
    I and several others agree that we dont see this as all, if any, evidence of alt timelines existing…on the island at the same time.
    Although it would be a funny way to cop out of which is which, it would quietly shut us up in regards to the subject, and nobody likes the show any less…

    All Im saying is, that I dont view these things as evidence of Alt timelines.

    As stated, 2 dharma signs on a building I, an expert, can really not recall seeing that building anywhere other than 2007 and 1970s…
    the risk gme, if anything, suggests that it is the same timeline…

    …seriously, I understand you are not denying the presence of the timeline we ll know…

    What I really need, to help me understand why you are so strong on this..is what is there from the NEW timeline…

    Yes Im asking for exact evidence. Yes I know you are frustrated because of people asking for it.
    But isnt that the point of doing this on a theory site?
    To tell what we think, and give reasons factual reasons behind our theories?

    If you just think its alt timelines…its cool, I wont debate the subject with you anymore. I dont think its just in your imagination…I need your help to figure it out.
    So if you feel there is hard evidence behind this, please let me know where I can find it?

  37. None of you can be accused of having watched too little Lost. Clearly different interpretations of what we have seen are possible. No need to fight over it. 🙂

  38. Lost is a construct, everything we are shown has been decided on and created which means that for things to be seen that aren’t ‘right’ or not supposed to be there or are different there are two options, it was a mistake or it was put there/done on purpose for a reason that we probably don’t know yet.
    The Dharma signage may be subtle, but I don’t see how it could be a mistake (the set dressing people got carried away and just put stuff up and the editors paid no attention?) The Risk board (shape of things to come 3:58 and Dead is Dead 18:39) is really different, yes things may have got knocked off, but new crockery? Again, may just be a dressing mistake, but they would have had photos of the first shot to match. The Ajira numbers, they didn’t accidentally find themselves in the sound mix, they were put there for a reason. In a show where they cut it so tight that the bit where Dan gives his river / rock analogy had to be cut, these very specific and often quite long shots are there because they are telling us something. They are small, yes, they are subtle, yes, they raise many more questions, yes – but isn’t that the pattern of Lost all along. They have the same importance as the shot of the hatch door and Charlie’s ring, they are actually shot in similar ways, wide pans, oh look at this detail we want to show you.
    So yes, by themselves all of the evidence indicating a change of some sort could be rogue set dressers, mistakes, or someone interferring with the sound mix, but when you put them all together, really close together in episodes that all seems a bit for fetched. On top of that, if the producers have been that sloppy, I don’t know that I want to watch the rest.
    The evidence is there, it is subtle but it has been put in the show for a reason. However much importance you give it is each of our perogatives, I just feel that any theories which dismiss it are flawed because of my reasoning above (they aren’t just random)
    AES, To sum up the ‘changes’ I’ve seen;
    1) numbers over Ajira radio
    2) reception room in DV with the same furniture and signs as in 1977 (why did the others leave it like that for decades and not use the room themselves, the fireplace shows that it is the same building as in the middle of the village)
    3) there are Dharma signs seen outside – logo on a door and processing sign
    4) the Risk board has missing and added crockery.
    5) the windows are boarded up, they didn’t stop to do that when leaving in 2004
    Seen across 2 episodes tied in with Dan changing his advice to we can change things it’s quite a bit of stuff to be taken into consideration.

    I’ve laid out the physical evidence in all the ways I can think of, take it as you want, I can’t explain it any differently, sorry.

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