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Whatever Happened, Happened

This is in response to Yojimbo’s post, ““If I Were a Betting Man…” – Pre-S6 Theory Roundup”, which can be found here: https://www.theoriesonlost.com/2010/01/if-i-were-a-betting-man-pre-s6-theory-roundup/

MILES: Has it occurred to any of you that your buddy’s actually gonna cause the thing he says he’s trying to prevent? Perhaps that little nuke is the incident? So maybe the best thing to do… is nothing?

An appropriate quote made by our loveable Ghostbuster in the episode appropriately titled “The Incident”.

In 1954, The Others meet Daniel, Charlotte and Miles. There is a H-Bomb on the island, and Daniel is instructed to go with Eloise to take a look at it. After looking at it Daniel tells Eloise that they need to take the bomb and bury it.

FARADAY: You bury it!
ELLIE: How do you know that?
FARADAY: Because 50 years from now, this island is still here!

After telling Eloise that he’s from the future, Daniel disappears right in front of her eyes.

In 1977, Eloise comes accross this same man, only she shoots him and kills him, unaware that he’s her son. She obviously believes Jack and Kate when they tell her they’re from the future, as she’s had 23 years to think about the day that Daniel had disappeared right in front of her.

So, Eloise is on board with the time travel thing, and after Jack tells her that all of what’s just happened can be erased (as Daniel had claimed), she takes Jack to the H-Bomb and the events lead up to The Incident.

What happens next? That’s the big question.

My belief is, as the title says, Whatever Happened, Happened.

When Juliet detonates the bomb, because of the Electromagnetism and the location of the bomb, it doesn’t destroy the island. It does some damage around The Swan area, but the island and most of its inhabitants are still there.

Dr Chang managed to get away from the area before the bomb blew, but his hand was seriously damaged and he would’ve had to have it amputated (as per one of the Dharma Orientation videos). Radzinsky continues to build The Swan, and becomes the first person to “push the button”.

When Eloise comes to from being knocked out by Richard, Richard tells her that Jack and co. succeeded in detonating the bomb but were unsuccessful in blowing up the island. Richard thinks that anyone in that vicinity is dead, so his words to Sun in 2007 “I saw them all die” make sense. He didn’t have to physically see them die to say that, just knowing that they were there when it happened could allow for those words.

Eloise is distraught by this news and realises that you can’t change the past. She leaves the island and gives birth to Daniel and spends most of her time researching time travel, setting up the Lamp Post, and pushing Daniel towards a life of physics. She knew that once Daniel would leave on that trip to the island that he wouldn’t come back alive, but she knew it had to be done.

The reason that Jack, Kate, Sayid and Hurley had to go back to the island was because if they didn’t, “god help us all”. Eloise knew they were there in the 70s, so she knew she had to get them back to the island for that to happen.

Sun and Frank didn’t belong in the 70s which is why they stayed in 2007.

When Jacob says “They’re coming”, he’s refering to the Oceanic 815 survivors from the 70s. The H-Bomb and Electromagnetism caused an effect which sends them back to their own time, to 2007. They meet with Richard, Sun et al who fill them in on what’s happening at the statue and the war ensues.

Team Jacob v Team Flocke

There are 2 Lockes on the island because the real Locke is dead. Dead is dead. Flocke is MIB, he’s found his Loophole and now has a war to fight against Richard, The Others, The Oceanic 815 / Ajira 316 Survivors and whoever else wants to fight for Jacob.

The only thing I don’t have an answer for is Claire. I don’t know for sure, but I’d like to believe she’s alive.

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trinity

27 thoughts on “Whatever Happened, Happened

  1. Trinity – amazing theory, makes sense to me. What do you think is the ultimate motivation of MIB, Jacob & The Others? Why are The Others so violent to anyone they deem to be an ‘other’? This is one thing I’ve never got, or do they represent the Other in the Kirkegaard sense, a collective ‘untruth’? Then again, I could be reading too much into it…

    Are we even sure that Jacob is ‘good’ and MIB is ‘bad’?

  2. As you know Trinity, I believe this up to this point, you and I have been agreeing on pretty much every theory that we have posted on together…which is pretty good considering my track record, lol…

    There is much speculation on this subject and I believe that you covered it very well, here and in other posts…but…I know, theres always a but…

    I have to say that what happened happened, but what happened can and most likely will be changed. As I said around this time a year ago, I think that a change is on the horizon.

    I debated many times last season in favor of change, because I believe so very much in the show, throughout five seasons screams for it…

    but I believe that what we witnessed so far is, as you put it, what happened happened.

    I think the opening scene from last season was the beginning of opening the final chapter, which is the history of the island…the producers did say after all, that it would end how it “began”, did they not?

    Misinterpretation is a Lost specialty, and I believe their words there were no different.

    I think that we still have to learn the backstories of Richard, Jacob, MIB, BlackRock, The Temple, The others, possibly the volcano, and of course…smokey…and where better for these things to take place, but the islands past…and of course, our Losties futures.

    I think in the final chapter, we will see Desmond Hume play possibly the most important role in relatinship to time/concience travel, and in doing so, cause something to be different…he is special, isnt he…

    I think with this, the return of John Locke…in some way, again possibly through Miles, or more likley Hurley…if not in the flesh, there will a way to cause progress and avoid an ending by way of fighting, corrupting, and destroying.

    I still believe what many think is change right now to be a red herring of sort, as a way to hide something else…but that in the end, the change will occur to avoid what Jacob believes to be wrongful thinking by MIB.

  3. Okay, if Whatever Happened, Happened, as you say. And if Eloise knows this, then why bother making sure it happens. Won’t it happen anyway?
    Eloise’s actions are not those of someone who believes WHH.
    In fact, anyone who believes WHH, would not be trying to make sure it happened the way they know it happens. That would be intellectually stupid.
    Her actions are more in line with someone who believes that an alternate time line would be created by detonating the bomb. Even though she may never be aware of the alternate time line. She had to get Jack and Daniel back to 1977, so they could detonate the bomb. Because creating an alternate time line, that even she is unaware of is the only way to give Daniel a chance at life.

  4. Again, I have to say this.
    If you know the future and you know you cannot change it, then it would be SO STUPID to try to either change it or TO MAKE SURE IT HAPPENS. And your theory says this is true.
    Yes, your theory says this. This is intellectually absurd. The rest of your theory I can get, but this one part makes no sense. It has NO logic. The only way this makes sense, is if Eloise DOES NOT believe WHH.

  5. trinity: Great theory… But, it seems that we are in two separate camps of thought. And, I have to agree with Ban Linus as far as Eloise and Dan are concerned…

    If you believe in WHH, then you have to believe that there is no change… Our lives our already predetermined by Fate and there is nothing we can do to change it, past, present or future, because free will doesn’t really exist… No matter what decisions we believe that we are making at the time it doesn’t really matter, because it will always end the same.

    This is why I believe that Miles statement can be somewhat contradictary to your WHH approach… “So maybe the best thing to do… is nothing.”

    If you do nothing, then WHH will still happen because nothing can change… But, in-order for there to be any chance of change, you have to do something! And, there is a better chance of change happening if you are a variable in the equation…

    This is why I believe in the things can change approach… You can’t have progress without change, because free will exists. Ben was right when he said that Destiny is a fickle bitch!… Fate and Destiny are not interchangeable… Destiny requires free will. It is not a constant, it is a variable, therefore changeable and fickle.

    As far as Claire is concerned, she doesn’t believe in Fate… She’s said so herself, which means I believe she is in the camp for change.

  6. BanLinus & elsewhere – I understand both your comments but I still stand on my thoughts regarding Eloise.

    She has some knowledge of things that will happen, whether she read it in Daniel’s Note Book, or perhaps time travelled herself I’m not sure, but the fact is she’s aware of how things will play out.

    When Desmond tries to buy the engagement ring for Penny, she immediately panics and tells him that he doesn’t do that, he changes his mind and walks out the door.

    Eloise talks to Desmond and puts him on the right path.

    The same thing goes with Daniel. When he’s a young boy and tries to pursue his musical talents Eloise steers him on the right path.

    I understand that her doing so negates the WHH theory – but what if that’s what always happened?

    Daniel arrives on the island and Eloise kills him. With this Eloise finds out that in the future she pushes him towards this life. It isn’t her choice; she’s simply doing WHH.

    Daniel ending up on the island, ironically, was the reason why he ended up on the island.

    Which came first? Daniel ending up on the island or Eloise pushing him towards that?

    We don’t know, but I stand against my theory: Whatever Happened, Happened.

  7. Eko – thanks for the comment.

    Interesting question regarding the ultimate motivation of MIB, Jacob & The Others.

    I see Jacob and MIB as rivals who have been on the island together for a long time. There’s never just been 1 of them, they’ve both been there for the same length of time.

    It’s difficult to tell who’s good and who’s bad. Jacob is seen as the good one, and I think The Others, Oceanic/Ajira survivors will be on his side in the upcoming war. But perhaps the big twist is that Jacob is actually the bad guy, and they’re fighting against someone who ultimately wants good for the island.

  8. A.E.S. – Thanks for the comment.

    I wasn’t aware that the producers said that the show will end how it began. I guess this could mean absolutely anything though.

    It would be great if we could have a flash back of the history of the island, Richard, the Black Rock etc. and I think we should get at least 2 episodes this season covering that. We must at least get a Richard flash back.

    Your thoughts on change are good. The alt. timeline theories are all good but I think introducing alt timelines to the show may be a bit OTT (in my opinion), but your example of change seems reasonable and doable, and if they were going to dabble with things changing on the show, it would be great if they did it in a similar manner as you described.

  9. Ban, after reading your comments again I had to respond to this part:

    “She had to get Jack and Daniel back to 1977, so they could detonate the bomb. Because creating an alternate time line, that even she is unaware of is the only way to give Daniel a chance at life.”

    Eloise knew that if they were successful in detonating the H-Bomb that it would potentially kill everyone on the island, including her and her unborn child.

    So, how would this give Daniel a chance at life in an alt. timeline if Eloise dies on the island while pregnant with him when the H-Bomb goes off? He’ll be dead.

    He’ll also be dead in the original timeline because Eloise shoots him.

  10. I was more joking with the statement to take it away from ending with Jacks eye opening…I like to play word games here…

    Here is the thing, and I feel I can say it here without catching a whipping, lol…

    I really dont know for sure if what the “believers in change” here are saying in regards to the alternate lines is correct.
    I am not, and have not dismissed anything that Tas, Yojimbo, or anyone else has said in regards for it…I was simply looking for more evidence towards this thought.

    I have for well over a year now been saying I believe in change on the show.
    I have done rounds with several anti-changers, and almost feel like a sell out to my beliefes in the debates if late, and it seems to go against my previous, yet very vocal, belief IN FAVOR of change…

    I want there to be change. I want there to be a shake up in regards to what the TRUE islands history is.
    I just thought it would happen differently.

    I predicted that Desmond and John would play the most important roles in learning how this occurs.

    If change is occuring in the manner that they so much believe, so be it…it doesnt take away from my tre show beleiefs except for Desmond not playing the main character in that story, although something I felt necessary.

    I wouldnt mind if things changed due to the “evidence” they gave us thusfar, I just need something more to really give it away for me to bite on it.

    Im still on the side of changing the past, just not caused by Jack and company detaonating the bomb.

    I always felt that we would experience all of the islands past with our Lostiesseeing it through theor own two eyes, rather than a mere flashback…How fun would it be to learn that they played a role long ago in BlackRock being shipwrecked, or the smoke monsters origins.

    As I have said many times in other posts of mine last season, I think that the islands capabilities are beyond our imagination, and that things, such as changing the past, can occur there due to the islands properties…

    The bigger question on the subject, and the moral question isnt “Can you change the Past?”, it should be “If you could change the past…should you?”.

    By reading any of my theories from last year you can see that Im on boat, and why I feel this way…
    I WANT the island to be different right now than it was when the Ajira Losties left…I really do…I just dont know what it would mean in regards to the islands history and peoples memories, such as Richard, Ben, and even the other 07 losties.

    I have a more extensive idea of “what changed” in a much different manner than how it has been talked about here…just have to figure out how to explain it without sounding crazy…

  11. A.E.S – I’d love to hear your idea of “what changed” in a theory. I think I understand what you’re saying but to have a separate theory from you explaining in more detail your idea about this would be great.

    If you’ve already done so, please point me in the right direction. I’d love to have a read of it.

  12. Hey Trinity, I have one big question (based on do you think that the losties just flash back to 2007? – I can’t remember whether that was you who said it in some comments a little while ago)
    What is the storytelling point of season 5 if nothing changes? What I mean by that is, they could have just flashd everyone to 2007 in 5 episodes or so and got on with it. What have we learnt or gained from 2/3 of a season in 1977 if nothing changes? All they have been through, in the words of Alanis Morrisette, isn’t it ironic. But that’s all. Sawyer and Juilet finally have the time and space to find love, but now she’s just dead and it doesn’t even have the power that she died to create a change for the people she cares about, just dead. Jin and Sun go through the angst of being separated for what, just to be flashed back together, why? We didn’t really find out any new information about the others, DI or even the incident (what we saw in the last episode isn’t the incident Chang told ua about in the orientation film, the circumstances don’t match), even Daniel’s whole back story is made a bit redundant – his mother (who knew she kills him) pushes him to be the best physicist so that he may have a chance of changing what she knows happens, he says WHH, then does more study and comes back saying, I was wrong, the variables (us) can change things. But he didn’t know what he was talking about??? Why. Yes on the fact that he is still dead, he didn’t say it was easy to change things, you have to DO differently, if you do and act the same way you always do nothing will change. Yes it’s sad that he didn’t save himself, but isn’t it a nice thought that he was right, you can change stuff?

    I just don’t get the point of spending 2/3 of a season setting something up and then not doing it. They knew when Lost would finish so it’s not a time stretcher season, there has to be a major reason for it. Change that affects the others, DI, the losties… from 1977, that’s a reason to have told that part of the story.

  13. Trinity – thanks. Its too set up the way Jacob touched them all / gave them something, I just think there is something sinister about it, something that premeditated & orchestrated can’t be for the powers of good surely?

    The writers have warned that not everything will be answered come finale, and I’ve turned myself into knots trying to work some of the stuff out, espec the Eloise / Daniel dynamic. But with each season unwrapping another level of the unexpected, of course there will be reveals that I for one couldn’t predict, despite my diligent rewatch!

  14. I think she trusted that Daniel knew what he was talking about. That the bomb would not destroy the entire island. I’m guessing that the island is not destroyed in either time line.

  15. “so his words to Sun in 2007 “I saw them all die” make sense. He didn’t have to physically see them die to say that, just knowing that they were there when it happened could allow for those words”

    I’m sorry but just because he thought they would have died in the blast doesn’t mean that would have died in the blast so why would Richard say this?

    I personally don’t believe in the WHH line of thinking, I don’t really know what I think at the moment, I kinda put some ideas down in my theory entitled “Not a major point…” but I think that their actions in 1977 are making some changes in present day.

    Saying that I don’t exactly buy into the whole Alt Timeline or Flocke not being Locke theories either…

  16. Hey Tas to answer your question about change from a different viewpoint. Maybe the change was about the characters themselves and not whether they changed the circumstances. Sawyer settling down with Juliet, Jack becoming a believer in destiny, all of them putting aside their differences and working together instead of against one another. Being that it happened in ’77 did make pretty good storytelling. Stories are definitely more about character than anything else.
    Sorry, trinity, for stepping on your post this way. Just wanted to put this out there.

  17. Yes, the character changes are important, but plot is what keeps the story and the characters moving, if all the plot for 2/3 of a season was to just change the characters but not advance the plot line in any way, what’s the point. Those character changes are still important within a story that has progressed and moved. My big issue with many non alt theories is that they either just flash to 2007 (which does make much of the plot devices and development used in season 5 a bit redundant) or I’ve read some where they say this happens or this happens next and either MIB or Jacob win. Where is a 17 season story in that? Even your comments Roland, where do the characters go to from there? You’ve just described an ending.
    They’ve set the plot up to be resolved through a change somehow. Damon and Carlton have said in a podcast that they love moving all the characters into positions so far away from where they need to be, then write them back together, that’s what made season 4 so interesting – ww knew who got off, but how? we were left wondering until the end. You can’t get much further apart than different timelines. it would make for some great writing and tension, again, we’d know where they should be but how do they get them there.
    Stories are about plot, the good ones have well developed characters and character arcs, but interesting plot is essential

  18. Yes, I believe the death of Jacob is so very close to the end of the show, in terms of time.
    I’d say 95 percent of season six will happen before Jacob is killed. Telling the story of how we get to that point will be season 6.

  19. @Ban – If you’re blowing up a H-Bomb on an island it’s going to pretty risky. Daniel told Chang to evacuate everyone from the island, and the reason Kate gave to Sawyer for going back to stop Jack was because Jack could potentially kill everyone on the island.

    So, even if Eloise is under the impression that the H-Bomb won’t blow up everyone and everything, it doesn’t mean it’s true. And if Jack was successful, she could have died.

    However, if Daniel was right and it doesn’t blow up the entire island, what’s to stop them from building the Swan in the future?

    @france – Richard said this because after the explosion he didn’t see Jack and co. ever again (not until 2004 when they crashed), so he must’ve persumed they had died (when they actually flashed to 2007).

    Roland – no problem at all. Thanks for your input 🙂

    Tas – I’ll get back to you on your question once I’ve given it some thought.

  20. Tas i think what we have gained from season 5 is that the incident/button that bothered all the losties so much (mostly jack), created it. And Jack being the least believing in the button is the main reason behind it all. Ironic isnt it (this obviously is based on the WHH theory).
    And you mention plot line, well we dont really know the plot do we? So maybe something could happen in season 6 which will make all of the other series relevant. For example Adam and Eve. We know this will be explained in S6 but up until then, finding Adam and Eve was pretty irrelevant.
    Oooh and also your point about the writers saying they want to move them as far away from where they need to be as possible.. I dont think they mean physically, i think they are talking about in terms of belief such as Jack turning faithly, maybe they bring him back to sciencey.. Just my thoughts 🙂

    Ban – maybe Eloise pushed Daniel into a life of physics because she always does/did. Or maybe she pushes him because she panics that something may have changed and she wants to make absolute certain that he goes there. Its like she says to Widmore when Dan leaves – ‘I just had to send my son back knowing full well..’ the only way this can be translated is that she sent him back knowing she was going to kill him.

    I like this theory Trinity.. It causes a lot of debate lol

  21. I like this theory, but I can not get out of the thinking that this is an alternate timeline. There are too many facts:

    1- The picture on the Dharma wall with some of the losties in it. Do we really think that none of the DI would have recognised the 815ers, even though they were new? Or at the very least that Ben wouldn’t recognise kate and Sayid?

    2- I am rewatching LOST and I noticed that Rousseau, the Frnch chick was in a few scenes with Jin. Do we really think that she wouldn’t have recognised Jin?

    That is just a couple of reasons that I feel it is an alternate timeline. I know there are more, but just those 2 alone illustrate that somethings have changed. Because if whatever happened, happened, all of the DI would realize what is going on right now and Rousseau woul have recognized Jin.

  22. Best theory I’ve read so far because it makes sense and it isn’t ridiculously convoluted like some of the other theories on here. This is something that could easily be told within the show. I really like the idea that the Losties were sent to the 70’s to blow up that bomb and leave back to where they really need to be. Get it done and go. I love that because it pushes the “everything happens for a reason” saying. Know we need to know for what reason did everything happen?

  23. Sawyersgirl, that’s my point, it’s just ironic, nothing else. These writers pack so much into this show to boil 2/3 of a season (right when they need to be ramping it up) into just isn’t that ironic seems to be a massive waste of time. I have so many questions that haven’t been answered, to spend that amount of time on irony alone would frustrate me, as well as spending time leading towards a change, then negating that. What have we been watching?
    On plot line, Yes I have no idea where they are going to go, BUT the non-alt plot examples aren’t a whole season, they just end or say that they want explanations, (like Adam and Eve which i think we are going to find out has been resolved throught the anagram clue), you can’t have a season of exposition. I’ve found the alt timeline theories have more plot density to work with.
    It was in a podcast towards the end of season 4 and they were very much talking about physically moving them. This is a story and plot and characters need to be moved (the emotional stuff flows along with that) season 4 was so interesting because of the physical nature of how do they resolve this to get those 6 people off the island. Stuff has to happen to change characters, there needs to be complelling motivation in the plot.

  24. Hi Tas

    I’ve had some time to think about your question, and in all honesty I have no idea what Season 6 entails for us if WHH is true. It could go anywhere. If Season 6 starts with Jack and co. flashing to 2007 it doesn’t neccessarily mean the Season is going to be dull, or uneventful, or that Season 5 was a waste of time.

    Remember back at the end of Season 1 when Jack and Locke were looking down the hatch? I wasn’t a member of any theory sites back then but thoughts that were going through my head at the time was that there was some sort of monster down there. Not smokey – another monster that had been locked up for years. I was, obviously, completely wrong. But I doubt anyone could have predicted there’d be a Scottish man down there pushing a button to save the world.

    My point is: the writers will come up with something exciting, extraordinary, confusing etc. regardless of whether they flash to 2007 at the beginning of Season 6, or if there is, as you say, an alt. timeline.

    For me not being able to give you the whole story of Season 6 if WHH doesn’t mean this theory cannot happen. I can’t sit here and try to explain what will happen in Season 6 because it will be impossible for me to do so. That doesn’t mean that I don’t believe in this theory any less.

    Now, your other questions about what was the point of Season 5 I can answer. The whole point of it was to show us, the viewers, the Dharma Initiative, what it was like in those days before The Purge, how Ben became an “Other”, the fact the Eloise and Widmore were once an item and are parents to Daniel, and to show that Richard has been there for a looong time (although I think we already knew that). The point of Jack and co. going back to the 70’s was to explain that they themselves set the cause of events in motion for Oceanic 815 to crash on the island – that they in their attempt to avoid it happening tragically were the cause.

    How do you know this isn’t “The Incident” that Dr Chang talks about? When Chang speaks of The Incident he has a prosphetic hand does he not? In “The Incident” we saw, Chang got his hand trapped under something heavy: something heavy enough to warrent his hand be removed. It seems like it’s the same Incident to me?

    I don’t think Eloise pushes Daniel to be a physicist so that he could try and change things. She simply does it because she knows he has to eventually end up on the island. She’s not trying to change things through him, she’s trying to make sure nothing changes. This is why, when she speaks to Widmore outside the Hospital, she tells him that she’s just sent their son back knowing full well she’ll kill him.

    Daniel at first was adamant that Whatever Happened, Happened. Then he does some study and thinks “no actually, I can change things”. One of these assumptions has to be right, and one has to be wrong. Just because Daniel changes his mind doesn’t neccessarily mean he’s right.

    When he spoke to Desmond outside of The Hatch, it didn’t form a new timeline because it hadn’t happened – it caused Desmond to remember because it had happened. Whatever Happened, Happened.

    Daniel may have thought that he could change things, but how would he have known what to change? How does he know what people did or didn’t do on that day? To be able to change things you have to know what happened originally.

    I just think that with One Season left and a whole load of questions unanswered, that introducing alt timelines will take up more time and waste episodes that could be explaining all of the other island mysteries.

  25. Drmshepp – thanks for your comment.

    In response to your points:

    1- When Oceanic 815 crashed the DI were no more. Who’s to know whether Ben or any of The Others saw that photo that Christian showed Sun and Frank? Richard is the only person who had contact with Kate, Sawyer etc. in the past, so maybe when Oceanic 815 crashed he hid the photo so that no one would recognise them?

    When Richard took Ben to the temple Richard said he wouldn’t remember what had happened to him. So Ben wouldn’t have recognised Kate or Sayid in 2004 (or he could have and has been lieing about it doing what he does best).

    2- Rousseau has been living on the island for 16 years and is a little crazy. Perhaps she doesn’t remember Jin, or maybe she thinks it’s just someone who looks very much like that guy she met 16 years ago.

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