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Is this progress?

Hi people im trying to get my head around this alt timeline so please give me a hand.

If the Losties do get back to 2007 but make a different choice as in, i dont know… side with MiB instead of Jacob for instance, and this is how things are meant to be but further down the line make a bad error on another choice and time resets itself ie going back to 2004 then this isnt alt timeline or WHH, it’s PROGRESS. Just as Jacob mentioned they’ve made a small step forward to the end game whatever that maybe.

My idea of an Alt timeline is different choices at different stages thus different outcomes. So if we have different outcomes then we cant have different timelines joining back up, can we? they just run side by side. The only problem with that is that means there would be infintesimle timelines (just think of the amount of decisions one person makes in a day – butterfly effect).

My understanding of WHH is there is no end to time it just loops back and starts again, at least for our Losties and their lives. Unless as i theorised earlier they keep getting chances to make the correct combination of decisions, kind of like cracking a safe. Now if that were true then that would be progress and Jacob is waiting for them to bust the safe and prove him right and MiB wrong.

As i said im trying to get my head around the Alt timeline but with people posting different versions of it i cant figure it out properly, so please help a lost sheep back to his shepherd, thanks guys.

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33 thoughts on “Is this progress?

  1. i think this pin points the alt. timeline problems perfectly.
    My biggest worry about the alt. timeline is that everybody is going to be in complete different places and i cant see a way of them joining due to the complete change of lifestyles between them. But i think what you said sums it up perfectly.
    I also like your idea of calling it progress.

  2. thanks SawyersGirl, this is what i was trying to get at without it being a huge post. If they are in Alt timelines then for all the losties to return to the same timeline they would have to jump sideways not forward to come together.

    But that couldn’t happen because time is constant and has been proved by Desmond when his mind flashes back, his body is motionless for the during of the flash. So they must all be on the same timeline just at different points of it. Desmond returns to the same timeline he doesnt jump to another one.

    1 piece of string – a beginning and an end, no stirngs running along the side of it
    ie alt timelines.

  3. With regards to WHH, this relates to actions that have already happened (past tense). however, anything that happens after 2007 can change and this is new time and hasn’t happened yet. i cant see how things can have changed between 77-07 as we have seen thsee events happen.

    It could be possible though that the effects of the change that Juliet is ‘apparantly’ responsible for may not have be felt yet. Events will happen as they’ve always happened up until the point that, for example, Jacob dies. Maybe before in other timelines, Jacob didnt die.

    sorry, im just stabbing wildly in the dark as i usually do with my responses!

  4. My idea of the alt timeline is that the bomb blast split the string in two in 1977, so you then have just two timelines running parallel to each other, one we’ve already seen and the consequences of the new one we’ll be shown through character flashbacks in the first 6 or so seasons. At the time of the Ajira crash, I personally think the timelines merge, forming 1 string again, with bits and pieces of both, not making anything we’ve seen redundant.
    On the consciousness skipping, they have shown us two ways to time travel, one where just your consciousness moves (I think they will use this to have the new timeline losties know about the island events) and a physical travel (the time skips through season 5 which I think they will use to physically move them sideways into a new timeline).
    My personal view on change is that it is very difficult to make happen, because we as humans tens to make the same sorts of decisions over and over again, therefore not changing. I don’t think there were lots of little changes, I think Juliet’s decision was different to her original one causing a huge difference, enough to split the timelines, just into 2, any more than that I agree would be way to unmanagable

  5. Alternate timelines just seem so confusing. I consider myself pretty smart, and logical, and i have a really hard time wrapping my head around these alternate timeline theories. I just dont’ see the show going such a confusing way, the average person has to be able to understand it, and explained it all in one season. I guess i just hope its not, because it’s just so confusing, and i don’t completely get it yet…

  6. i_am_jacob: dont worry about stabbing in the dark :)If we were post 2007 and something happens in 2008 that changes something then surely that cancels WHH,no? which doesnt mean Alt timelines its means FATE.

    You cant change what happened as it has already happened and you cant change whats going to happen as you are unaware of the future and the outcome of those choices, running along the lines of course correcting.

    TAS: Do you mean that in 1 timeline the bomb doesnt go off (Daniel ” because in 50 years this island is still here”) and in the other the bomb has gone off? hence 2 timelines?

    my only case against that is Daniel says that the bomb will wipe out the island if it detonates. I know it’s not the full bomb just the warhead/mechanism. I see where your coming from with this, it just seems confusing to the average viewer like Bailey said.

    Bailey: Im the same i hope i dont have to sit and rewatch season 6 to get to grasps with the ending. I would like to be able to sit there and – not be spoon fed – think ahhh i see thats how it links such and such. The alt timeline is a good idea i just think they’ve left it a little to late to explain it in 1 season along with all the remaining questions still to be answered

  7. BigDave – Thank god! someone else who isn’t on either a WHH side, or a alternate time line side. just on the “whaaaaat?” side.

    I understand what “alternate timelines” means, per say, but when i start reading these theories i have to re-read sentences 4 times over before i understand. and by then i’m usually bored and checking facebook. ha!

  8. i have to believe the WHH side because the alt. timeline side is just to hard to wrap my head around! there are sooooo many different alt.t. theroies that i forget what its meant to mean haha! Im quite happy to admit i am also on the whaaaaat? side!
    And i cannot wait for season 6 to explain everything and put me out of my confused misery lol!

  9. Dave, you have the right thinking on this…

    Its NOT all about WHH oe and Alt timeline…that is simply a way of telling, what we all forget to be the actual story…

    Whether “What happened happened”, “a complete change”, or “an alternate timline”, we MUST remember that this time travel is a device used to tell the story.

    We still know that there is all the character battles going on that will revolve around this plot, but they will hopefully be resolved regardless of how it is told…

    …and yes, the ultimate goal for Jacob is progress…and MIB I dont think is necessarily looking for regression, but he just doesnt believe that man can act rationally in the presence of great power.

    The reason that I cannot disregard alternate timelines goes waaaaaay back to the Orchid video involving the bunnies…its a prime example…and canon or not…it exists for a reason…

    We start with one bunny…

    Put him in the machine to PHYSICALLY move his bunnybody say…three seconds into the future, then bring him back at the exact moment he actually leaves, and from our visual and concience perspective…the bunny doesnt go anywhere…

    Yes, it really does come down to basic Doc Brown physics for this…its about the only part of back to the future that makes sense in regards to actual time travel…the mathematics of it…

    So…say we did the same test, and screwed the settings up.

    We set the bunny to go into the future and return all the same…but instead of setting it for return…BEFORE we actually sent the bunny.

    So its 1pm…

    We send the bunny to 1:02pm…

    We mean to set the machine to return the bunny at the exact moment we originally sent it, which is 1pm and one .05 seconds, making it almost instantanious…which in turn, would make the bunny stay in our timeframe never actually interacting with itself…ad giving us the perspective of the bunny not actually going anywhere…

    Instead, we accidentally send the bunny into the future as stated…but set the return for 12:59pm…

    …giving us two bunnies…

    Which then leads us to the question of if everyone panicked, and never actaully sent the bunny to the future…how did it return?

    …which leads me to think that the two identical bunnies are truly the same, and there are two timelines that were manipulated incorrectly, by us…humans…

    Take that to a larger scale, say an island…or a person…and you will have yourself quite a pickle…

    …I dont know about progress…but does that count as corruption?

  10. A.E.S – I’m sorry, i dont follow either haha..

    ok I read your post several times and from what i THINK i grasp, i have a question..

    Are you saying its their conscious that moves or their physical form?

    conscious – If its this then how can sending the bunny back a minute create 2 bunnies? Its not a physical form, its a state of mind.

    Physical – Even if you send it 2 mins to the future and bring it back again, well in 2 mins wouldnt there be another bunny anyway? (the same bunny but sent through time)

    I think this is more like a science lesson than a debate haha

  11. but in all seriousness AES:

    what i’m not grasping is why: “which leads me to think that the two identical bunnies are truly the same, and there are two timelines that were manipulated incorrectly”

    why does that mean that there are 2 time lines? It’s the same bunny, in the same place isn’t it? It’s the same umber 13 (or whatever number it was) in the same room, with the same Dr. Chang isn’t it??? i don’t get why that means it’s 2 timelines. Maybe i’m thinking of timelines wrong, i think of 2 timelines meaning the same-ish things happening, with slight (or major i guess) differences, running parallel to each other, both in different…times??

  12. Ok, I just realized there are about a million and one examples and questions that could arise from the example…what I present is one scenario…

    Subject: Bunny#15

    Timeline A: the present we start the experiment in.

    Timeline B: the future we send the bunny to.

    Timeline C: the past that the bunny accidentally arrives in.

    Timeline B is not effected in this botched experiment, as far as we know (although the overall outcome leaves us wondering what future the bunny went into)

    Because the bunny accidentally went back in time to the past (Timeline C), and was never returned to its rightful place (Timeline A), there is now the one that is sent from Timeline A…and the original bunny that exists BEFORE it is ever sent anywhere in Timeline C…

    They are all technically the same timeline, just in different positions/periods in time…
    But when the bunny from the future, is sent into the past, it creates an alternate timeline that is NOT capable of existing without the sending of the bunny, while at the same time either overwriting or running parallel to the original timeline.

    the reason that it is an alternate timeline instead of changing the past, is because of the paradox that exists in two bunnies existing in the same timeperiod, at the same time, consisting of the same matter and DNA.

    You have a bunny from a different timeperiod in a timeperiod with its PAST self, thus stopping Chang from ever sending the bunny due to a realization of his mistake…
    And we are now stuck with two bunnies, in a timeperiod that already played out with only one, SEEMING as if the past was simply CHANGED…

    But if you think about it, the past was not CHANGED, because if it did, two bunnies couldnt exist, because Chang after seeing the second identical bunny, never sends it through time…

    FORCING there to be two timeline…one where he sent the bunny…and one where he did not.

    The timeline we are viewing is the one that he did not, with the exception of the bunny from the alternate timeline.

    The bunny percieves everything 100% completely different than we do, so please…dont try to see it from his view until you can see it from ours.

  13. Oh…my..Dave, very sorry to paint your comment section of your theory with this, I just realized how long it is.

    I am just trying to help with the “wrapping of the heads” around the alt timeline idea.

    I apologize, and dont want to turn this into the same debate as everywhere else.
    I simply want to be able to present at least a reason and example of how this is possible on a small scale, rather than trying to figure out how it works throughout the entire show…which is what I think that the videos are, scaled down examples of not necessarily what is going on, but what is possible.

  14. Dave, back up to your question for me, Yes, that’s how I think we’ll have 2 timelines. On the bomb blast, I feel that there will be significant consequences (not destroy the whole island, but make a bit of a mess;) ) The reason why I don’t think the bomb exploded in the original timeline is the same, where is the bomb damage to the Swan site, why concrete, it seems more like what we’ve already seen is the result of the bomb not going off and them pouring concrete down there as protection.
    On the confusing stuff, most stories are confusing when told and described like we have to on this sort of site. Imagine trying to explain Lost to someone who hadn’t seen it through this media, I think heads would explode, but it was still doable and understandable within the TV show. Whatever way they go with the time travel it will be understandable because they can use so many devices to show us rather than explain. I kind of feel that if I could draw a picture and you could see my gestures (I talk with my hands a lot) my view of an alt would be less confusing.

  15. ‘My idea of an Alt timeline is different choices at different stages thus different outcomes. So if we have different outcomes then we cant have different timelines joining back up, can we?’

    Yes we can. Didn’t you find all those references to ‘bringing them all back’ weird in the show ? Why would you want to bring necessarily ALL people back ? That’s pretty simple : the war between the 2 timelines cannot happen, the 2 timelines cannot fuse together if all the people in both timelines are not regrouped in a single place. That is the sense of the war, that is the explanation of the 2 timelines, and that explains the ‘bring them all back’ thing. We have to create a point in time where everyone is regrouped such that whether you’re in timeline 1 or timeline 2, if you are somehow involved in the difference between the 2 timelines (major characters that have directly participated in the split of the timelines, juliet jack etc…), you’ll be at the same physical location (island) whether you are timeline 1 or timeline 2. That’s 2009-2010.

    OR

    If you can’t make it to the island, the war can ALSO happen, but only if you are dead. For this reason a lot of people will have to die to allow the fusing of the 2 timelines back together.

  16. Ok, AES, I still don’t get it. I appreciate the explanations, but I still don’t understand the whole bunny issue. Could you please try to clarify it one more time, and then slowly, step by step? 😉

    Jj23, I’ve never thought of that ‘bringing them all back’ like you say it! That makes perfectly sense. So what you’re saying is that the island is a place where the two timelines intervene, or connect? So the island is the place where the two timelines can be merged..?

  17. Jj23, you explained what is my understanding of the purpose of the two timelines very nicely.

    Viewers have not physically seen the results of the two timelines on the show (the results of the Incident), but we have been exposed to the ‘hints’ of that potentiality occurring when S6 begins.

    The two timelines have not ‘merged’, as some are indicating. That will also occur in Season 6, where the whole debate regarding Fate vs Free Will will be addressed in these issues.

    PS: AES you did a superb job with your explanation.

  18. AES: Dont take this the wrong way but i couldnt stop laughing with your explanation. I was reading it and i think i ended up with 20 bunnies haha I could feel myself reading it faster and faster i had to read a few lines stop. read a few more but i get it WOOHOO 🙂

    Tas: Your the same as me i use my hands alot maybe thats why i wasnt getting it when it’s wrote down. I think it’s my fault as i’m reading everyones theories on the alt timeline as gospel and not thinking they are just theories and interpretations. Thanks.

    Jj23: When you say they all come back then why do Sun, Ben and Frank not follow the other Losties? Do they have another purpose? I understand that they are all (i assume) going to end up back together at some stage in S6. I do see where your coming from regarding the place where it will converge.

    Dabs: That is ANOTHER point at which im getting confused. The way people are writing their posts i keep looking and racking my brains for evidence of where the timelines have already converged, when of course we haven’t been shown that yet.

    Thanks guys big pat on the back for all of you for helping me

  19. This was interesting… I like the last post here by TawaretsAnkh. Your the first person that has explained this on the site (as far as I know) that actually convinced me that the reset may happen – because I was dead set against that – kudos to you!

    I recently watched the Constant, yet with the producers talking about the story and I got the feeling from what they were stating (and I know, they have lied a bit before) that they were absolutely not going to go to a reset – reason being they felt that the audiance has invested to much time into the character’s and the storyline… whether that is true or not its anybodies guess.

  20. Ok, AES, i’m getting there, but i’m unclear on this part: “Because the bunny accidentally went back in time to the past (Timeline C), and was never returned to its rightful place (Timeline A)….”

    Wouldn’t, as time continued on, the bunny from the past BECOME the bunny of the present??? sort of appearing out of thin air. like i’m assuming most things that have time travelled do. (it soudns like i’m being sarcastic, but i’m honestly not) I’m confused as to why this is considered “botching” the experiment. Wouldn’t it just reset itself sort of?

  21. TawaretsAnkh, you have it wrong I believe.
    There will be two time lines. One where the bomb does not explode and all the events we know still happen. And then the one created by the bomb exploding. In order to get around the paradox, both time lines must exist. Jack and company must crash on the island, and then travel to 1977.
    They will die in the bomb blast. Maybe Hurley and Sayid and the island’s other inhabitants won’t die. I’m not sure of that. But the ones at the swan sight will die.
    The way the show resurrects them, is thru the alternate time line.
    The island is a special place where aspects of both time lines can coexist.

  22. Cuse and Lindeloff have said they don’t want to undo all the action that occurred on the island.
    Deleting the old time line will do that. Therefore both time lines will exist.
    Everything we watched for 5 seasons will still happen, it will not be deleted.

  23. Bailey, Sawyersgirl, and anyone else…

    Im going to write a theory on our conversation here, a)to help people understand my perspective, and b) to stop polluting Daves post with this info.

    I can talk about it all day, but I am aware that this was not exactly the posts intentions.

    Have a few off island tasks, then I will get on it.

  24. @TawaretsAnkh

    You forget something. In order for that beautiful life at LAX to occur, for that ‘2nd timeline’ that you describe to occur, you need 1 thing : You need Juliet to go blow the bomb. You thus need her to go to the island. You need her to get with the others, travel in past, etc….

    So you can’t say ‘Everything that happened before season 6 can be forgotten, it didn’t happen’ like Faraday says, he’s wrong. The only way that the 2nd reality exists is if the 1st exists, thus the term Parallel timelines instead of ‘2nd timeline that replaces the other’.

    So don’t forget to include that in your post A.E.S. … Almost everyone that is somehow serious about alternate timeline does _not_ believe in time resetting. They believe in 2 parallel realities coexisting.

  25. I dropped an explanatory theory in “FUN” based on the ideas I present here…if anyone cares to take another attempt at “head wrapping” around my thoughts of how an Alt timeline could be explained…

    “Alternate Timelines…101” in Fun…

  26. I think you guys are on the right track, but it is possible to incorporate all time theories and work together. You could simply draw an undisturbed timeline by drawing straight lines in parallel. Each line represents what happened the way it happened. In another line things are different but things that happen there is what happened for that reality.

    Now there are two questions left we need answering. What does the meaning of LOST pertain to? And are alternate realities a part of this show? If so to the later question, then you can have progress so to speak and what happened, happened as the island is jumping across not only time but realities. The only evidence to this is the loss of memories and gaining memories like Charlotte when she’s out of sync. Or Desmond as he leaves the space the island occupies via helicopter.

    As for the first question LOST at this point could mean the 815’ners from civilization or from time, or from time and thier realities. Or if it is none of those then it’s aliens in their island spaceship lost in all of the above.

    And that is the end of the series.

  27. I think you guys are on the right track, but it is possible to incorporate all time theories and work together. You could simply draw an undisturbed timeline by drawing straight lines in parallel. Each line represents what happened the way it happened. In another line things are different but things that happen there is what happened for that reality.

    Now there are two questions left we need answering. What does the meaning of LOST pertain to? And are alternate realities a part of this show? If so to the later question, then you can have progress so to speak and what happened, happened as the island is jumping across not only time but realities. The only evidence to this is the loss of memories and gaining memories like Charlotte when she’s out of sync. Or Desmond as he leaves the space the island occupies via helicopter.

    As for the first question LOST at this point could mean the 815’ners from civilization or from time, or from time and thier realities. Or if it is none of those then it’s aliens in their island spaceship lost in all of the above.

    And that is the end of the series.

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