How Locke’s Coming Back & Richard/Jacob Betrayed MiB
I’d like to make a few tweaks to my earlier theory/thoughts that take into account LA X events.
If I’m right then there’s some big stuff here.
(I’ve been really busy so haven’t had time to skim all the theories in the past few days, so apologies if someone’s thought of this.)
Firstly, I was wrong about Flocke being a Locke from the other alt. But if you want to see the real Locke back on the island, I’ve got two words for you – just wait. Good thing I was right about the splintered time – that whh and so can the new stuff – because it will come into play to create a situation like which I earlier theorised in my Ajira thread. Here goes:
My main reason for thinking that Locke couldn’t be dead was that it just felt wrong from a storytelling structural point of view. Locke has to come back into play. On a rewatch of LA X tonight, I noticed a few things, and it has me convinced that the real Locke (from the sideways timeline) will play a pivotal role later in the season. Stepping you through a few things first:
Flocke makes a point of saying to Ben Locke was pathetic and “irreperably broken”. Then we have the scene with Jack and Locke, where Jack says “nothing’s irreversible”. In that same scene Locke makes a point of saying, paraphrasing “it was just his body, not the man”, in an episode where Locke’s body features prominently.
Think about how we are seeing 2 realities, but they are 3 years apart. They are not parallel. Also, if it took an atomic blast in a massive EM pocket to CREATE this splinter, how will it merge? My answer is…
Ajira.
Think about it – alt Locke & Jack get to know each other in the other timeline. Jack reckons he can “fix this”. Maybe he can, maybe he can’t. The important thing is that fate / course correction again plays a huge role in intertwining Jack & Locke’s destinies. Just like I argued that the dead Losties are still destined to die in this alt – hello overdosing Charlie! – ironic mutations of the original timeline will occur.
So for one reason or another, Locke ends up on the 2007 Ajira flight to Guam. Maybe he’s planned another trek. But the thing is you need to think about this flight a bit like in Back to the Future where it’s kind of like 1955 being the “temporal junction point” – but in this case it’s the point of the final merge.
I say final, because I do think there are artifacts from the alt timeline all through Season 5. Dharmaville changes, Ajira radio numbers, Risk board, etc. I’m thinking the opposite is true too. Things are disappearing from the sideways reality.
The knives – much is made of these in editing. We cut from the on-plane conversation between Locke and Boone talking of the knives to Flocke wiping it off, if I recall. The knives go missing, etc. I have noticed others have said they and the body have flipped to the other reality / timeline, and I’d buy that. The big one – Christian’s coffin. It’s MEANT to be on the island, so it is. On the knives btw, I think that Locke was using them on the beach in the original 2004 timeline (making his big scene about hunting), so as they are a sort of constant for him, they merged to him.
Anyway, I digress – Ajira. So imagine the “new” Ajira flight goes to the island, with Locke 2 on it. What would be the most beautiful, poetic way of linking the 2 realities? The DEAD Locke on the beach starts to move. Picture our first scene of Locke in the pilot lying on the beach. Look how he is now. I’m betting he’s going to raise his head, wiggle his toes, and then go looking for boars to hunt!
Thus the timelines merge.
Ok so as a postscript, I’ve noticed a few things about the whole MiB / Smokie / Jacob / Richard thing.
I think Jacob stole the island from MiB. I think he was one of the (first) people that came, and MiB gave him and others the benefit of the doubt, but they screwed him over to exploit the powers of the spring / island. Smokie’s chains. People have mentioned these thoughts here I think.
However, I think I know how it happened. Smokie makes chain / chains being reeled over timber noises, right? I think they got the original MiB (who likely predated the host MiB on the beach in The Incident), CHAINED him up, put him on a rack, etc. and killed him, burning him to ashes. Yes, those ashes. But the island’s properties somehow allowed him to stay alive in the bodies of unburied dead people. So think back to the exact words in the beach conversation with Jacob – and how much MiB wanted to kill Jacob.
Now, think about Flocke’s conversation with Richard. “Its good to see you out of those chains.” He wasn’t talking about Richard being in the chains – he was talking about HIMSELF. Watch Richard’s expression – it’s like realisation, followed by “oh, no, this guy I helped screw over has come back from the dead to get me!” And then Flocke decks him. Why would he do this if he weren’t doing it out of payback?
Anyway, supporting evidence? Problems? Ridicule? Lay it on me.
Yojimbo
You made some good points,specifically about Locke and Jack conversation..but are you saying that in 3 years Ajira brings them back to island? What about the Island being underwater now? Are you saying the Ajira flight somehow transcends to the other Alt reality and crashes on island?
I dont beleive the ALT people are coming to the island at all……i believe it is just a device to show the consequences of the changes that they made…and the result of not crashing on the island.
Yojimbo, I’m with you with Locke… it just doesn’t make sense – he deserves redemption and not as a host body… BUT, these dudes love their novels and Jack more then Locke is the hero of this show. So, although I believe there will be a convergence of these two realities, and I’m hoping that Jack fixes Locke and he returns somehow to regain his dignity, I somehow don’t think they will do that. Good read!
Wouldn’t that be a really unsatisfying way to suck up a heap of airtime, though?
I could see how they could use it to make a philosophical point, but Lost isn’t “Sliding Doors”.
At this stage in the game, there has to be a stong narrative reason for this to be shown.
Besides, iirc I believe Darlton have made reference to the timelines merging and some of the biggest mysteries of this season being how that will happen.
The alt time line is going to show how the universe course corrects. I have no clue how they are going to do it though.
Well they did say in an interview when asked about the Alt and the sunken island… That it was a mystery of this season… A big one … Damons exact words
I absolutely agree. I think the sort of stuff I’ve noted above will be a key example. It’s all about the relationship between the variation of individual actions and “destiny”. If the last season is being billed as “Destiny Found” I think we will have it revealed in the big picture that the individual action of S5 was necessary to create the splintered time to allow that in turn to bring a new element (Sideways Locke (+ others?) to the joined narrative. It will get them oput of the corner they’ve painted themselves into. Otherwise, what would have been the point?
Sorry – #5 was @Greatforsaken.
@Henry – Yep, absolutely agree. But I’m not touching that one yet – it’s beyond me for the moment. There are enough mysteries to go ’round. 😉
Maybe the island is always underwater….. Season 4 it did seem to Just sink when been moved it…. Maybe that’s how it is hidden and the only way to reach it is through a passage
Maybe. I think there’s a 50/50 chance that a donkey-wheel type event sunk it. When that happened a few years ago I immediately thought the effect made it look more like it quickly sunk more than disappeared.
My exact thoughts as soon as I saw the island underwater….. It sunk back in season 4!…… But ben turned the wheel after the flight went over it….. Unless this time the flight isn’t at the same point in time
That could be how they are going to merge, I’m confused as to how the sunken island fits in with the changes we saw ON the island in season 5. There is going to be some serious writing to pull it all together. The image of Locke just getting up out of his coffin on the beach is a little funny, you can imaging the look on Ben’s face.
Henry, I don’t know whether it was just the dodgy CGI but to me it almost looked as though the man made things on the island were just sitting on the ocean floor. The terrain didn’t seem to be the same. Could it be that somehow the island vanished leaving the things from it to settle on the bottom. A way out idea and I have no idea how or why that would work, but it’s all a bit odd.
Yeah – dunno. That’s why I think it’s beyond me for the moment!
I give it 2 to 3 more weeks to start explaining stuff… They have to.. There’s nontime left …. Unless everthing can be answered with one event… Doubt it
@ Tas:
Sediment.
Very good theory, but I have some questions.
I don’t understand how Flocke means himself when he’s saying “It’s good to see you out of those chains”?
Btw I really like how you described the variations of the actions etc on the alt timeline. Never even thought of overdosing Charlie because of course-correction!
But about the merging of the timelines. Do you mean the Ajira flight we have already seen in season 5? Are you saying that we’ve already seen the timelines merging in season 5?
@Stone, Thanks. I realise it could be a long shot on that “chains” thing – my first thought was, oh, Richard was chained up as a slave on the Black Rock or something, but then something clicked.
I thought it worth noting that the line could be read either way, and the fact that Smokie makes chain noises could mean that he was killed while being bound by chains. That the last time he saw Richard, smokie was bound by chains, not vice versa. So his “spirit” or whatever is doomed to wander the island, looking for a way home like a ghost rattling its chains.
I think a lot of people are gonna be in trouble due to course correction. Artz better stay away from candles!
In short, yes. To recap my earlier “Incident” ideas, I think the moment the “first” Ajira flight that entered the island, the flow of causality meant that because the Losties went to ’77, changes were made to the timeline, so things started to bleed over. Dharmaville is different (signs), the Risk board was laid out differently, and the wrong numbers recording was playing as Ajira crash landed. Now we are perhaps seeing things happen in the other direction.
But yeah, as I thought then, the next few “sideways” episodes will have some serious Desmond-style course correction, I’m sure.
But in this case it will be Jack/Locke put more and more into the position of their destinies. Will one, the other or both have to sacrifice himself for the island? Is it Locke’s destiny to be killed, but like Charlie, this time is able to do it in a way that gives his death meaning?
I like the idea that by “good to see you out of those chains” he was referring to himself, not Richard. I never thought of it that way.
Ok, from what I understand, you’re saying that the alternate timeline also ‘reset’ after the Incident?
That we’re gonna see an alternate Ajira flight on the alternate timeline with some variations, just like we’re now seeing an alternate flight 815 with a lot of variations?
There has to be something w/Ajira ‘cuz Lapedius is in the promo poster and wasn’t on 815
@Stone, Q1 Not quite – I’m saying the incident caused time to splinter everything from ’77 to ’07. I think once we see the alt timeline reach ’07, course correction will have reached a point where the last remants of that reality will be absorbed into the on-island events. IE Locke waking up on the beach. I don’t think it will “rewrite the ’07 on-island events – that’d be too complex.
Q2 Yes, and those variations will be significant.
@Waycurious – yeah, but he is already an on-island player. I like Lapedus – I hope he gets some decent airtime.
Ah ok, thanks for making it (more) clear 😉
I’m having a hard time to get my head around all the time splintering etc.
When it comes to Locke and Richard’s conversation. I think that whoever smokey was imitating at the time of Black Rock is who Richard is referring to and Richard came in on the Black Rock as a Prisoner. I’ve been thinking for a while that Richard has been working for both Jacob and MIB at times not knowing. The whole giving of the compass and taking the bullet out of a time skipping Locke is one example. I guess the big question’s still remains when it comes to Richard what is he and why doesn’t he age?
I’m still leaning towards the alt reality being a ‘this is how it would end up’ no crossovers. I think that they can do this in a cool way. That said I think most of us would be happy to see the old Locke we grew up with come back to Life.
Ever since I heard the “chains” comment, I assumed that Flocke was referring to Richard being a servant to Jacob. From the little bit I have seen of their relationship, I could see that MIB would think it distasteful to help Jacob, so that anyone who is helping him must be forced to do so (in chains). Maybe MIB used to work with Jacob also, but started making decisions on his own, at which point Jacob bound him with the ash. I agree with “I found my loophole” about Richard unknowingly serving two masters, I am just not sure how he could not know. Do you think that Richard has ever seen Jacob? He seems just as squirrely as Benjamin when it comes to meeting with Jacob sometimes….
I do agree – I think Richard has been a bit of a patsy. I think the chains comment has a pretty good chance of being metaphorical too.
I just think its interesting we’ve has the reoccurence of these same icons like the chains, etc. a few times.