Chuck Widmore, Hostile Island Natives, Some Hippies and a Chubby Chick
So Charles Widmore, huh? What a guy!
I’ve left this thought on a few threads now so I thought I’d articulate it in a theory and see what you all think about it. AES posted a great theory about Charles Widmore and the rules (…made to be broken) and he asked a good question about Charles (the aptly named A question on Widmore). Before that there was Kimberly’s post (Desmond & Widmore).
So Charles, Charles Widmore. He seemed to be the leader of the Others in 1977 along with Ellie and possibly others. 1977 was the beginning of the end for Charles since little Ben Linus had been thrust into the Other’s spotlight by a couple of guys who, with the best of intentions, tried to kill a ten year old kid. Sayid, the man who shot him and Jack, the surgeon who refused to help him.
There are plenty of questions about what happened later. The DHARMA Initiative was killed off mass murder style and nobody is sure now who ordered it; Charles is exiled from the island and nobody is really sure who ordered that either; and Charles has been telling people that he’s been looking for the island for 20 years and we all know that timeframe isn’t really possible.
I have a solution. Ben says that Charles Widmore has been frequently leaving the island because apparently he has a family back in the real world. He’s had a child with an outsider and supposedly has committed other crimes. This, according to Ben, is the reason Charles is being exiled. I’m not so sure if that is exactly the reason. When Ben says his goodbyes to Charles on the dock and ‘reveals’ this information to us, the viewing public, Charles has this look on his face that screams ‘bull sh*t, punk. We both know what this is really about”
I think that Charles has been leaving the island because he has affiliated himself with the DHARMA Initiative. They’re secretly working together and probably have since around 1984, about 20 years before Miles tells us that Charles has been looking for the island for 20 years. Here’s what I think. At some point Charles decided for himself that the DHARMA Initiative, along with the Others, can work together in the best interest of the island. Jacob disagrees but goes along with it. Either Charles is right or he’ll learn a hard lesson. Eventually Jacob decides that Charles has gone far enough with it and to teach him his hard lesson Jacob orders that the DI (Charles’s other people) be killed off. Or to pull in another theory of mine (The truth about the purge) Jacob decides to kill them himself. He keeps Charles on the island to see the consequences of his actions then after the purge has Charles shipped off on the sub.
Now, Miles doesn’t know that Charles was an Other. As far as he knows Charles is a guy who associates with hippies and has been since 1984 (or thereabouts). Charles has not learned his lesson though. He’s still looking for the island and he may be looking to reconstitute the DHARMA Initiative. Enter Ilana and her mysterious silver box that I believe is filled with DHARMA Ranch Dressing and Apollo Bars. She’s working for Widmore with the intention of securing an area on the island so the DHARMA Initiative can start moving back in and building even better, more technologically advanced and aesthetically pleasing DHARMA Stations’ It suddenly makes sense that whoever sent her knows about the statue and it’s shadow. I still think the riddle is a code but it does show that she works for someone who has a great deal of knowledge about the island.
Ok, I went further than I planned. Sorry. Hope you enjoyed this. Please let me know what you think.
So who’s the chubby chick…?
Ilana.
miles knows more than we think
Yes, Miles is the man.
I like this a lot, highbrow.
I have said several times on other posts, that I think that “ship jumping” was done on both sides, and that Charles could very well be the prime suspect.
You made this into a hell of a theory.
I fully agree, it is almost so obvious, that it is missed by most.
He was an other on island for sure, and his company is related to Dharma off island.
I hadnt really done the math on that, and assumed he just took over the D.I. after the purge…this makes a lot more sense.
Kind of makes you wonder…who on the D.I. side nkew he was helping both…
My guess is Amy. Makes the whole Lafleur scene make more sense, and could possibly be why they have Ethan, even though Charles doesnt want Ben to have Alex.
This as well, could play into my Amy is Amelia idea, and why she would still be around in 2004…
Nicely done.
Ethan Rom, an other…well…half other.
Damnit, AES, I was waiting for someone to argue with me! While you’re in the mood to agree with me maybe you’d like to discuss whatever happened, happened?
Kidding, of course.
Yeah, I don’t know what it was… This scenario kind of popped into my head this morning when I was catching up with comments and theories… until then the “20 years” line seemed like just a dumb mistake or continuity problem. 20 years!? It’s been more like 12 Miles… pay attention!
I don’t know if it’s going to be this or something not even closely resembling this but hey, I think I succeeded in string events together from 1984 right on through 2007 without contradicting any other events so I’m quite pleased with myself there at least!
hey…about agreeing on that topic…did you see my shout out to you on my ‘made to be broken’ post..lol…
Yeah, I did… the idiot doctor you were referring to there was Jack, right? Mr. “I’m going to save the world by letting this kid die because my ego tells me that I must have originally stepped in a played the hero by saving his life with my super hand-eye coordination built up over the years with endless video game play”… Oh, Jack… you are a sad, sad man. It’s only going to get worse when you find out you’re pregnant…
i honestly think its worse…I think he did it more in spite of Sawyer than anything else…yeah, that was his exscuse…but not his reason.
Yeah, Jack is kind of like a little kid…
Nice! you think Ilana is working for Widmore, that was my theory from the beginning, waiting for some1 to agree!
I think that Widmore is with DHARMA. Not from the beginning but at some point he threw in with them. Ilana is working for DHARMA.
I agree that whoever Widmore is with, Ilana is with, right now Ilana is Widmore’s eyes and ears on the island.
I disagree that he was working with them when on the island. I think that the DI is going to BADLY break the truce, probably being the fault of one of the losties or the building of The Orchid, and then the others will feel that the purge is neccessary.
I think that will be a unanimous decision since even Richard took part (for some reason I think of him as like the BEST GOOD GUY, watch he turns into the one bad guy the whole time).
Once the others purge with the DI, the leader (Widmore) will start using the submarine for little “vacations” off the island.
It is possible that he joined up with the DI once he started leaving the island or when he was banished. Maybe he was helping them to come back and that is how he has become so rich.
I definitely think he is working with the base (Ann Arbor) DI in the present day. Just because the DI was wiped out on the island does not mean Ann Arbor forgot about it.
He definitely has a score to settle with the others who banished him from his home.
Well, there are hippies all over Ann Arbor and I’m sure some of them are DHARMA Initiates in disguise…
Looking for an argument, highbrow?? lol
I believe, as I just stated in AES theory, “Made to be broken”, that I believe it is John Locke who orders the purge.
Please refer to that theory for the explanation, in several of my comments.
What I emphatically agree upon in your theory, are the breaking down of ‘the factions’ within the DI.
I have also mentioned this in a couple of my theories, along with a couple of AES’ theories, that in order to account for all of ‘the players’ on the outside world, there had to be a ‘changing of the guard’, so to speak.
I think there are a few people who switched sides, and some that have not shown themselves yet, but will in time to come.
I really don’t think Charles Widmore sent Ilana. I think Ben brought her to ‘the island’.
Given that Ben has shown such mercy towards children, he definitely sets himself apart, from Charles, aka ‘the babykiller’. Does this mean, that Ben was not a true ‘other’, under the skin?
Perhaps, it is Ben who is more aligned with the resurgence of the DI, as opposed to old Widmore.
By now, Ben knows Jacob chose John Locke over him, as did Richard for that matter!
I wouldn’t be so inclined to rule out Ben, as being the one, to pull out a few more surprises in the coming days.
Great read! Good thoughts!
Well, the thing is… wouldn’t Charles have remembered who John Locke was when he met him in Tunisia? If it was John who ordered the purge then I imagine it was John who banished Charles. So why didn’t Charles just kick him in the shin and walk away? Ben also would have known John Locke because John would have been the leader of the Others in between Charles and Ben himself.
I think Charles is with the DI but I don’t necessarily think it was Charles who sent Ilana to the island. If the shadow of the statue thing is a code so the DI people can identify themselves then we can assume it’s possible that a group of people were sent to the island, each by different people and they don’t know who’s who. Ilana might be telling the truth about who she works for and the Avalino Family has sent her as their representative. The Avalino Family is behind the DHARMA Initiative (speculation).
If that’s the case then Ben may have been killing people off (through Sayid) in order to keep flight 316 free of DHARMA people. He failed. It also could explain why the Avallino’s wanted Sayid on the plane headed to the island. They want island justice for the murder of Peter Avellino so she’s bringing him to see the smoke monster (though she probably doesn’t realize it).
highbrow, it’s a good point about Ben knowing who ordered ‘the purge’. Ben says it wasn’t him, though.
At least that is what he says! If Ben is aware of ‘the losties’ mission, he likely would not be in a position to make any further statement.
As for Widmore, he knew very little about John Locke back in those days. He is much more aware of who John Locke is now.
As much as I think Widmore is lying about his circumstances surrounding why he was banished from ‘the island’, I am confidant there is some truth to what both he and Ben are saying about each other.
I do believe Ben pulled off some kind of trick against Widmore, and I do think most of what Widmore told John Locke was in order to manipulate him into thinking he is a ‘good’ guy.
Good point about the Avalino family, but what ‘weight’ would they have? None, IMO. It is clear, that Widmore and Ben are pulling all of the strings on the outside world.
All, I am saying is expect some surprises, twists, and betrayals. We have been led to think characters represent one thing, and it may turn out, they in fact represent something quite different.
As for Chuckie aka ‘The babykiller’, he wouldn’t be representing anything, that isn’t in his OWN interest. He’s not an ‘other’, and he’s not ‘Dharma’. All which have been proven, by his own self-serving actions. He is one of those other factions, I have been speaking about.
The New World Order! Think, Illuminati! He is a wealthy industrialist, with high ranking friends like himself, who want to control ‘the island’s’ powers and resources, so they can control the world, IMO.
I don’t think our views are that far apart, just a bit of a different spin on either side.
Yeah… I think Chuck might be the major player behind the DI and the others are just there… kind of like a board of directors and Chuck is the chairman. The rest of them are probably expecting a piece of the pie but Chucky isn’t likely to share in the end. I think he’ll stab the rest of them in the back and take the island for himself… or he would, but John Locke is going to stop him.
Hmmm I liked the read but now im really confused.
the purge was swhen Ben kills his father & everyone else right??
Yes, the purge was when the Others killed the DHARMA Initiates on the island.
ok let me read your theory again…but Widmore prob ordered the Purge since he is possibly on the island still, right???
Widmore is on the island during the purge. He was exiled some time after.
I think J.I.M as AES refers to it, ordered to purge, otherwise I don’t think Richard would take part. We know he does not take orders from Widmore or Ben and he is probably the one who created the truce because when broken, he shows up in Dharmaville for repercussions
wadap BinG!
Then wouldnt it be obvious that the leader at the time (Widmore) to order the purge??
That im sure would cut the bond between DI & Widdy but ok, think about when we see Ben Holding Alex at the others camp when she is taken from Rosseu, she has to be like 6 months maybe a lil older but then we see Ben pushing Alex on a swing & she looks like 4 or 5 so that kind of gives us a time between then & Ben taking over.
Ya so the purge must have happened during that time because we see the others still living in the jungle when Alex is a baby, and by the time she is 4 or 5 they live at the barracks and use the sub!
YA what up Josh,
I thought i was important that they showed the baby then a lil girl later & we cant tell by R.A or Ben if were talking aging.
Widmore looks alot older by the way from when he is at camp compared to when he is banished.
An BTW Highbrow,
How can you think Llana is chubby??
Man i would love to see your wife or GF she must get blown away from a good gust of wind.
Dont mind him, he thinks Kate resembles a man…must be a ‘blonde’ man….Id bet he would play Romeo to…nevermind…focus, focus…
Ok, this whole ordeal with Charles being behind the Dharma initiative on the island makes sense…but heres the thing…it does NOT have to be the Widmore that was exiled, could have been Widmore post exile…I can say crazy junk like that because after all, we are on a time travelling island, and Charles has somehow twisted 12 years into 20…something is off…
I do feel that Charles is behind the Dharma Initiative…it makes a lot of sense. If he is not behind it on island, then at some point after leaving, he recreates the Dharma Initiative, and sends the scientists in to conduct tests…but that is more of me reaching, Bing will appreciate that.
For Charles to have any kind of shot at keeping this a secret, he must have a man, or woman on the D.I. side, that knows he is an other as welll, hence my Amy idea.
I feel Ethan is NOT Horaces child, he is Amy and Charles child.
Here is my biggest problem with all of this, how would J.I.M. not realize that Charles is doing this?
Between Jacob, the monster, the island, the Others, and Ben, it would be known that Charles was playing both sides. Yes, this could have been a reason why he was exiled, but dont you think they would take a little more extreme action?
We seem to be coming to an almost agreement, that the DI initiated the purge, and it was finished by the Others…
This could make sense if they found out about Amy…If you havent realized, I find her VERY important in the story, and feel in the 2004 timeperiod she is still alive.
My GF is blonde but she dyes her hair brown, she knows i like me some Brunette.
But as for the theory i’m really torn here because I need to know when & how Widmore got to the Island & do we know for sure there was a D.I. at the time we’ve seen Widmore at his youngest??
But A.E.S. Im not sure what you mean by “could be Widmore post-exile”? If D.I. is there well B4 Ben arrives (Then gets shot by Sayid) assuming Widmore is in charge of D.I. by this time that means he would be all the way until the Purge which he’s still around for right??
Why kill your own peep? If Jacob said “Do It” then ok i understand (Dont blow cover) but when we saw the Purge, its no Widmore just Ben & R.A. & it seems like Ben always wanted it most.
Then a couple years later Widmore is Banished from the Island. We see this when Ben says his goodbye.
I thought Amy was really strange the way she made it a point to get that necklace from her dead Hubby (forgot name) but its strange that she is so into…I guess “Symbolism” or something like that, but it seems more of an “OTHER” kind of trait maybe its just me.
Oh, by post exile, I meant that it may be possible that Widmore could have been kicked off the island, then formed the Dharma Initiative, and sent them to the island, which could have been in the past, its really not a good idea…I could go on, but it really just my way of protecting this idea that Widmore is a controlling member of the DI.
It seems almost hard to believe that he is or was not.
Thought I posted this in questions on Sunday but it never showed up…the thought is that Ben’s “others” seem more gentrified than the original yurt living folk with bows & arrows….in my disappearing post I postulated that the purge was a split in the DI – peace and island loving DI deciding that the war mongering faction needed to go. Hence Amy/Amelia, Eathan, Tom, etc still being around. Also why the food drops continue and why “patchy” still tools around in dharma jumpsuits. Have we ever seen Richard living in the Barracks? Anyway, I think Highbrow is on to something.
HB, I was catching up on a few reads, few comments, and seriously…you crack me up. Right when I want to tell people not be to be such acewipes and getting annoyed…
“You stoners are harshing my mellow.”
Perfect.
I know this has nothing to do with your theory…which I not only like, but think is a good read…it’s even almost worth just saying, “Yep. I’ll buy into that one with no questions….” but I gotta give it one more read tomorrow!
Thanks for all the comments everyone… Now I shall address issues…
AES, yes, it would work that Charles got involved with the DI after his exile and the eight missing years could be the result of time travel. But as John Locke would say, “where would be the fun in that?”. He’s a two-timer!
BiNG, Alex was taken when she was a baby, yes. So that would make that 1988-89. She’s four or so when we see Ben pushing her on the swing. That makes it post purge so 1992 or slightly later making her about four. I don’t see any problem with this timeline. Four years pass and she’s about four years old.
I’ll try to find a screen shot of Ilana’s floppy arms for you.
Josh, totally agree that J.I.M.-bo ordered the purge. I guess I didn’t say that straight out in my theory but that was what I was thinking. I don’t see Richard actually taking part in it unless he was ordered to and who does he answer to? On second thought though, we’ve already seen Richard lie (possibly) about what Jacob wants (when he told Chucky about Ben) so maybe Richard ordered the purge himself. He finds out about Chuck and the DI and decides to take care of it…
Kim… to quote Chubbs…
“Just trying to ease the tension, baby!”
So that’s it? If nobody else is going to disagree then I’ll just assume we’re all on the same page and agree that I’m 100% correct. Yay!
You need a little affirmation today, Highbrow? Tough day at the office? 😉
Just teasing…
We know, we know, you’re smart.
But I did have a scenario pop into my head today that I would like your opinion on.
I just can’t remember what post you wrote about the various times/days/perspective. Oh, I think it was over on Bing’s…I’ll just talk to you here though, if you don’t mind…
I refuse to lose, An give in to you ALWAYS BiNG right damn it.
NO im jk i cant argue but my point to Alex’s age was just to say Widmore ordered the Purge since he is in control at the time.
Kind of meaning Ben was forced to kill his father like Locke was forced too, But ha who made Locke do it?? R.A. sure gave him that folder with info on his “Supposed Father”.
With the Leader at the time (Ben) then tells Locke it has to be done to be one of them, Just like Ben was told by his leader at the time (Charles) to do it probably under same circumstances.
Coincidence maybe but we know that word shouldnt exist with LOST. I hope I bug your brain for a sec.
P.S.
I’m guessing you were annoyed with me or whoever else gets high (Josh, Bailey, JoeArtist, an on occasion Eko-Loc) sorry if I put you on ‘blast’ fellow tokers.
I just want to know what KIM was getting at??
Richard seems like the middle man between both these incidents because we see R.A. right after the purge with Ben so he had his hands in both incidents i guess.
I get the difference of timeloop, time travel, etc.
I have a “what if” scenario that I want to hear your description of. No sass back like, “well, it hasn’t happened yet, so it’s pointless to discuss.”
And if you have already discussed this elsewhere, and I missed it, point me in that direction…
What if to align the timelines – as in get the 1977ers to 2007 – we see the island temporal flashing again.
Lets say that Sawyer, Juliet, Miles and Daniel all live past 1977, so they have the opportunity to align into 2007, even though they have never had a 2005-2006, technically speaking.
So we have a group of Jack, Kate, Sawyer and Juliet – just to keep it interesting – and the island begins its skipping.
First stop, 1962. We’ve never seen them in 1962, so they do something, talk to someone, and we say, “This ALWAYS happened this way.”
Flash….
Next stop, 1804. They do something, talk to someone, we say, “This AlWAYS happened this way.”
Flash…
Next stop, 1976. Sawyer’s been in 1976 on island. It’s just like when he flashed to 2004 and saw Kate & Claire giving birth. He doesn’t talk to them, just sees them, just gets a little emotional and something “changes” ONLY WITHIN HIM. But lets say this flash keeps them on the island for a month in this time period.
What is that then? Is it simply timetravel? (Do you not want to play this game because we haven’t seen it happen yet?) Because it’s not like they are COMPLETELY repeating actions that they have already done, because they are entering into the timeperiod at a separate time than their last entrance into that timeperiod. So they get different opportunities to experience, and this time, it’s with the knowledge of having already been there.
Alright, so enough scenarios…
One of my questions is, according to your perspective and definition of what has happened, what are the restrictions or rules for how it works if people visit a time they have already been in? I have never been able to understand that, and want to hear your thoughts without starting a whole new theory/discussion where it feels like AES said, we’re stuck looping on this subject!
I find it funny that Widmore went from thinning reddish hair all over his head in 1993 when he was banished; to mostly bald and grey when he is bidding on the journal of the black rock in 1996. Those three years must have been hell!
What you described Kimberly, still isn’t a time loop. It’s just more involved time travel. And if whatever happened, happened, then there were always multiple copies of the same person during that time.
Can I suggest that the island itself is looping, and the peoples concience/soul/self is not?
Come on…its half way, and does not cause any dramatic effects, unless of course someone from the future, who was in that period younger returns, in which they still would not be ‘looping’…
The island loops the timeperiod between the wheel turning, the people always are the same, and follow the same path each time, but noone would ever know it…unless they return as an adult to the time when they were a child…it wouldnt be a ‘loop’ persay for them, only the island itself.
…then the multiple people idea would occure…and yes this is something that CAN infact happen..
Going by the rule of whats done is done, and nothing can change…2004 Ben turns the wheel, sends the island back to the past…history (1974-2004)repeats for the losties…
eventually the island makes it back to 2004 again, where Ben “again” turns the wheel…
wash, rinse, repeat…
Lost415…always such short, ‘sweet’ and direct answers!lol
So really, the whatever happened, happened and it ALWAYS happened that way line of thinking- multiple people coming into the scenario, with the knowledge of past/future goes right into the destiny/fate vs. free will discussion because if Jack gets another opportunity to save Ben being shot – the scene will ALWAYS be the exact same…Jack stuck in a house with Kate, Hurley and Miles, having the same discussion…etc.
Does anyone see this the way I do? The bizarre, looping-TYPE of scenario? Or will it be more like Charlie’s death – that perhaps Ben gets shot, but this time around Jack might find him in the forest and still not help him…but then, at that point, SOMETHING has changed, no?
I have NO IDEA why I’m bringing this up.
It’s the darn incident discussion with AES, I think.
Anyway…thanks for humoring me in trying to explain it for the zillionth time.
No matter how many times we look at an event, it will never change. It happened and nothing can change that. But you hit it on the head when you said about Sawyer seeing Kate helping Claire give birth to Aaron. It changed him, but just him. That experience he had in the past changed him. But it’s very important to note that there are two Sawyers on the island at that time and the other Sawyer (the one that wasn’t flashing in time) was completely unchanged.
It doesn’t matter where or when they go, nothing is going to change except themselves. The thing about that though is that they’re changing constantly with new experiences all the time even when they’re not time travelling! So there’s nothing unusual about that.
Eventually they’re going to get to a point where they’re realigned with Sun, Ben and Frank. In the end it’s going to be their experiences they’ve gained that’s going to help them in whatever conflict is coming.
Just my opinion…
I like the theory of Charles Widmore being DI now; it explains his wealth. His collusion with the DI while still on the island also explains how the DI was managing to build a station in ‘Other’ territory without detection… Let’s face it, the way the Others were depicted in the first seasons, you couldn’t fart in their territory without their knowledge of it… And the newbies from the fresh crash with the statue thing are definitely a newer, more lethal version of the DI with Widmore’s influence… Kind of a hybrid DI/Other philosophy meant to oust Ben and take over the island in the way Widmore meant it to be in the first place….
PS: It was funny earlier when someone described the contents of the silver box as DI ranch dressing and Apollo bars… Nice!
all good, except I don’t think Ilana is chubby…I think she’s absolutely gorgeous, way more so than kate or claire’s skinny asses 😉
just had to comment on that