I guess you found the loophole
I’m sure I’m not the only one that caught into the connection from the opening scene with Jacob and the other man, and then the scene with “Locke”, Ben and Jacob in the statue. Jacob’s comment, “I guess you found the loophole” is the response to the man in the opening scene’s line, “One day, I will find a loophole.” This man cannot kill Jacob for whatever reason (possibly similar to Ben not being able to kill Widmore), and he has been searching for a loophole ever since.
Now that everyone reading this knows the connection, I have watched and re-watched the scene with Jacob and his “rival” – if you could say that – over a dozen times. Who is this other man? He remains nameless, but why? Another question for the viewers, or does he not have a name? He could be a manifestation of the island, possibly the smoke monster. The “I just ate” line could be comedy relief.
The smoke monster judges people, and kills some, and the man’s “they come, they fight, they corrupt” line seems a lot like something the smoke monster would say if it could talk, seeing as the smoke monster’s purpose seems to be to judge. So I personally think this man is “the island” in person-form, in other words. Jacob is known to have talked to the island, and seeing as it’s hard to believe one can talk to an island, the man is an easy escape. It could be why he remains nameless.
Now the man/the island manifests the smoke monster (where has it been, right?) into Locke who now is leading the Others to Jacob in 2007. Notice how the smoke monster had fooled so many characters – Jack, Hurley, Ecko amongst others – that what it manifested into was real. So seeing as the smoke monster had spent so much time analyzing Locke (remember back to the early seasons where Locke gets “spared” by it on several occasions) to know as much about Locke’s character as possible as he is the loophole in Jacob’s existence. Why? I haven’t the slightest clue. So it is easy for the smoke monster-Locke to be convincing.
When Jacob tells Locke “I guess you found the loophole,” he is not talking to Locke (obviously) he is talking to the smoke monster/island/man. Jacob’s rival, the island, won the argument. Jacob said he would be waiting “here”, next to the statue, and he was. Maybe “Jacob’s cabin” is “the island’s” cabin, the eye we see is the manifestation of the man.
Either way, who the hell is Jacob? He is on the island before the Black Rock. How did he get to the island, and why is he there?
the loophole, i think, is that “That Guy” needed to find a mortal to kill Jacob on their own freewill.
Remember how Jacob said to Ben – you have a choice.
“That Guy” needed to find someone to feel enough anger and frustration toward Jacob to kill him by their own decision.
if “That Guy” said, kill Jacob or I will kill you, it probably would not have worked.
The loophole, and all the work “That Guy” put in, was finding and convincing someone to kill the one man “Jacob” that they all love and respect.
The big smile came across fake Locke’s face when he said to Ben – “so you will do anything I ask of you? That means it won’t be very hard to convince you!”
cappayne, good thoughts and observations here!
I believe that Fake Locke stayed away from the smoke monster when Ben was being judged, because of its ability to read people.
Fake Locke was pleased to know that the smoke monster had told Ben to follow and listen to everything Locke told him to do.
He laid enough temptation at Ben’s feet, to easily move him into position to kill.
I think it is too soon (for me, anyway) to decide who Jacob and his nemesis are, and what their ‘ultimate game’ is.
The conversation about ‘finding the loophole’, seemed to be significant in the sense, of the opposition between them, and the desire for control.
Very nice choice of words, Dabia. The “ultimate game” you are thinking of is Backgammon. A game with two opposing sides, one is good and one is evil. One is light one is dark. All in an attempt to cheat death or fate. Notice that in the scene with Jacob and the mystery man, One is wearing a dark shirt, and Jacob is wearing white. Jacob, I believe, is Destiny itself. He brings people to the island so they can find their destiny, and it appears as if he attempts to get people to the island off island, although in a very subtle way, “I guess it just needed a little push.” The other man killed Jacob (through Ben) in order to keep people from the island and also possibly to cheat destiny. Things are going to change now that he’s gone. The dark side just won.
i agree dabiatchishere, i will not pass judgment yet on which is the good guy and which is the evil guy if that’s what it is all about. jacob’s denial to comfort ben at the end is a mystery to me. although there is freewill at play, jacob could have manipulated ben into not killing him by saying something that would put doubt in ben’s mind. that did not happen, and we should not assume that jacob knew that this would happen otherwise he would have avoided the whole freewill conversation all together.
just some food for thought.
why did the smoke monster grab Locke and try to pull him into the temple in season 2 or 3? Summoned by a different person? It’s amazing how the people we felt were significant to the cause now seem to have paled. Widmore? DES? Walt? Ben? How did ben summon the monster? How did he learn this?
I think all the loophole is is a way to kill Jacob. A breach in Jacob’s defense or protection.
Username, I tend to think that Jacob knew what would be coming. It’s all too familiar of a story, from my perspective.
That’s why Jacob set to work on the 815ers/Losties for decades prior to the 815 crash, all the way up to Sayid and Hurley pre-316.
The freewill thing is a conversation that probably stands as one of the major ‘sticking points’ or conundrums or mysteries for those who believe that God gives freewill. It is confusing at best if you think that someone or some higher power has sovereign knowledge.
I wrote on Highbrow’s “What about me?” post that Ben’s ‘what about me?’ line met with Jacob’s “what about you?” line was similar to Cain and Abel. In this instance, Jacob KNOWS Ben’s ways (lying, deceitful, power hungry, etc.) He of course would hope for the best, but ultimately know what Ben is capable of and would most likely choose.
But that’s the beauty of Jacob’s “They’re coming” line and the reaction on fake-Locke’s face. Fake Locke thinks he’s done with Jacob. HOWEVER, Jacob has had some people, some plans in place long before the loophole showed up.
I just don’t think that Jacob’s nature is to manipulate. We’ve been shown plenty of that, so at some point, there has to be the opposite at play in the story.
If Mr. X were the good guy then it wouldn’t make much sense that he mentioned “You know how bad I want to kill you”. That’s not exactly a “good guy” comment.
I tried to post this as a theory but i guess it is being reviewed or something so im going to say it here.
It is obvious to me that the guy who was looking for a loophole to kill jacob is the smoke monster. The smoke monster likes to take the shape of dead people, as it did with Yemi and Alex and Jack
Good call username!
It is all a matter of perception as to who is the good guy and who is the bad guy at this juncture!
It can be said that God allows us ‘free will’ to choose what path we will follow, whereas the Devil leads us into ‘temptation’, from our path.
However, many question this, and for good reason. How do we know in this case, who is doing ‘the tempting’?
Just because Jacob is wearing white, does not necessarily make him the good guy, and his nemesis is wearing black, the bad guy, does it?
Consider the conversation Jacob and his nemesis had, and then try to decide, who is good and who isn’t. Black vs. White.
There is a very fine line, which is open to interpretation. I think we are meant to ‘question’ this very issue!
Dabsi! I totally agree with you on the ‘how do we know?’ question. From the opening scene with them in their black and white shirts, I was completely enthralled with the idea that Jacob could be bad, just wearing white to throw us….
Then all of his encounters with the 815ers…
The line from Frank to Bram, “usually if someone goes out of they’re way to point out that their good, they’re not…”
Yes, we are supposed to be questioning it! For another year…it’s going to be wonderful! 🙂
This season we have ‘liked’ new Locke, come to find out he’s not Locke…and could it be that he’s bad? That’s enough to keep us thrown off and making the assumption that Jacob’s good. What a great twist. That alone could have left some people baffled, let alone taking it to another level where we are really supposed to be figuring out Jacob and his rival …
It’s so great. They’ve set us up for this all along, whether we were debating Locke and Jack; Ben and Widmore; the Others and DHARMA…. We’re reaching the ‘top’ now, on this ‘sides’ issue!
Personally I didn’t think that Jacob was being portrayed as an obvious good guy. He effected the lives of some of the Losties for what could be totally selfish reasons, i.e. to make sure that things turn out the way they need to be.
The whole conversation at the beginning reminds me of a conversation in one of Anne Rices’ books. I’m not sure but I think it was Memnoch the Devil. Anyway God and the Devil are in a cafe in France and the devil is arguing his point of view and you don’t really know which one to make out as the bad guy.
I like to call “That Guy” Esau since the biblical Esau swore to kill Jacob. Oh man, when Jacob said, “Guess you found the loophole,” I almost fell over. I think he definitely has something to do with the smoke monster and a side theory I have going is that he is the smoke monster and can only possess spirits of the dead on the island, hence why he can be Christian, Alex, and John (I’m not sold on the Clair-is-dead theory just yet).
I’m gonna stay away from the good/bad debate because I think it really does have to do with perception as dabiatchishere said (nice name by the way).
I really just want to see more of Jacob and [Esau/”That Guy”] in the final season to see what is really going on here. Is this just like the God and the Devil playing football? Or is it something else.
Yes, it definitely lends to the polar opposites trend in magnetic forces, yin and yang, etc. Balance of opposition.
And I have to say, I did question whether or not Jacob was really good at all during the first conversation when Rival was questioning Jacob’s motives in bringing the Black Rock. They come, they destroy, something like that. Why would Jacob want that? But on the other hand, he is also encouraging people, telling them that they have a choice. It makes me think that Jacob is trying to change his circumstances, or change the nature of the individual, i.e. create change. Is Rival the representation of Whatever Happened, Happened, or that people are going to do what they are going to do, no matter what? It seems that way to me so far.
One of the greatest debates is, about God granting us ‘free will’, in the first place, as it seems to defy logic. The lines become very murky, when trying to understand the very nature of such things, and it’s not hard to understand why.
You could take the scene in the beginning, and ask yourself why Jacob continues to allow the same things to happen over and over again, and not intervene to prevent them from happening!
Whereas, his nemesis says he will find a ‘loophole’ one day to stop Jacob, and these events from continuing to play out, as they have been.
Personally, I am going to reserve any judgments until I learn and see more.
It is, and likely will be a matter of ones perception, until Season 6 rolls around, and we find ourselves still asking the same questions.
And, everyone thought Benjamin Linus was ‘tough act’ to figure out! lol
LostBlowsMyMind – I am soo with you that Esau/Rival is Smokey, and was Christian/Alex as well. In thinking of Claire, and how she walked off in the middle of the jungle for no reason, I can see that maybe Rival/Esau appeared to her as Christian, so she followed him and he killed her or had her kill herself somehow. I think she could very well be dead, but I would LOVE to see her come back somehow into the show.
If the title changing to to black implies “the guy” has the power of upperhand, or do we thinkthe background, prodominent colour of White implies Jacob means he knew this would happen and has things in place to take care of ” the guy”. “they re coming”
Hey Dabs, simoposting. I agree we do not have enough info to call who is “good” and who is “bad” and in fact, we may find out that they are both, well, both good and bad.
And their authority of the island is mysterious as well. In fact, they have interesting levels of authority all over the world, or at least Jacob does. I would love to hear more speculation on the whole “Where did Jacob come from” question.
LostsBlowsMyMind, call me dabs!
The last line in your comment, has reminded me of one of the original Star Trek episodes, where a young boy by the name of Treelane, from another planet, rules over another planet as a ‘game’.
I have often wondered if the same were at play on Lost. The writers were inspired in part, by The Chronicles of Narnia, so it wouldn’t surprise me if some of these elements weren’t present.
mojo, Yep, I’m sure there will be lots of speculation on Jacob. Can’t wait to sort it all out!
Dabs, the elements of Narnia … ooo that brings in a lot of possibilities. Especially the cracked stone table and the resurrected lion … Jacob? A deeper magic the white witch (rival) knew nothing of? I.e. change? hahaha
Angus…thank you, thank you…i have been trying to remember where I read the god/satan conversation in the cafe all day.
I think that “they are coming” could possibly refer to the survivors and those stuck in time. The “reset” of their journey was being carried out in parallel to the whole Locke/Jacob scenario, and as Jacob encouraged Hurley (and Sayid in a way) to return to the island it could be that he was setting them up for this. Then again Locke also attempted to bring the survivors back and the “fake” Locke ensured that he did, so I wonder where the survivors really do come into this.
It’s clear too me that the “good guy” is jacob, one reason is that in the opening scene jacob is wearing white and the other guy is wearing black. My question is what is the connection between moses and the black pearl? There is definetly a slavery angle. My guess would be that they are going to play on the extraterrestrial side of the egyptian theory, and that jacob and the other guy are “observers” kinda like our jury and they must make a decision on our fate.
So the island itself is trying to kill Jacob? Hmmm interesting.
btw rewatching episodes and seeing Ben waiting for the smoke monster and then Locke coming out is hilarious knowing that Smokey -is- Locke. He must have not wanted to meet there so that he could get Ben alone and more insecure…
Is it possible that we didn’t see Locke (phony) at the same time as smokey while Ben was being judged because Locke, beach guy and smokey are the same entity? Kind of a Clark Kent / Superman thing going on…. I really liked seeing the statue in one piece. There are two sets of ruins, the statue and the temple, perhaps they each represent a different rival egyptian god. Jacob being the earthly manifestation of the good guy, beach guy obviously being the evil one…. And maybe the island is a limbo, entry to the river stix. Man, Ben has got to be the saddest character to ever be breathed life into…… Is there a implicit connection between Jack and Ben? They both seem so desperately second rate to their respective rivals, Sawyer and Locke respectively…..
Would have liked to find out who the box carrying gang are… Gotta suck carrying around Locke’s stanky body around a tropical island….. Guess dead is dead…
the scene of the conversation between Jacob and the mystery man. answered allot of questions for me in as far as who is against who this scene also provided 2 clearly opposite sides. When miles was abducted by the people in the van they told him that he shouldn
Yep. Looks like this guy is a body snatcher. Whoever he is, he can hop into dead bodies on the island. Think about it…Christian, Alex, and Locke’s dead bodies are all on the island. He turned into Christian to tell Locke he needed to die. Then he turned into Alex to tell Ben to do whatever Locke said. And finally, he turned into Locke. What a clever, clever plan. Whether he’s the island, or the smoke monster, or Richard Alpert’s great grandfather…I don’t know who he is. I just know what he can do, and what he did.
I suppose I am of a different belief here, to stay in theme with the thread “I guess you found the loop hole”….everyone keeps talking about the “Man on the Beach” being able to kill Jacob as the meaning behind this statement – I disagree. If you go back and listen to the beginning of the episode when they are on the beach, “Man on Beach” wants to be able to stop the cycle. The cycle of Jacob bringing people to the island, the people fighting and destroying the island, etc. “Man on Beach” said he wants to kill Jacob – that is the emotional response to the situation, he ultimately wants to end the cycle of people coming/destroying and getting stuck on the island. So when Jacob said “You found a loophole”…..that is what he is referring to. Ultimately it is foreshadowing of what is to come….it has nothing to do with having the ability to kill Jacob. (I mean who really believes Jacob is dead, Jacob is a god!)
Jacob plugged the loophole (time loop hole? It happens over and over, they come … ) that’s why he prodded Ben and said, “They’re coming” just before Juliette (aka the Joker)blew up the core. She was an uncorrupted sacrifice.