Am I wrong?…part two…linking 2 seperate theories
Ok, people may be afraid to read a post with such long comments, and I want to start where we left off. If you would like to be in the conversation a little more, read my post “Amy, was I wrong”, or further, begin with Dabs, “Flies in the ointment”. A little c&p magic, I moved a very long comment from there into a post…but while doing so, I thought of something else…deeper down the rabbit hole………..
If there is NO way to change the past, meaning, that no oceanic survivors, no others, no anybody that travels through time has the capability’without at this point, resulting in a timeloop. Not one of my ‘lets be friends with antiloopers’ timeloops, no, a full blown, going round and round timeloop. Heres why.
From the time the donkey wheel was turned by Ben, to the time John turned it and stopped the island from jumping, that is the beginning and end (you decide which really happened first) of the ‘loop’.
Now, I can already hear acharaisthekey typing madly at me, but thats just how it is. Why?
Because if it is true, that NOTHING can be changed, there is NO possibility, that Ben will not turn the wheel in 2004, and even less possibility that John will not turn the wheel on 1974. 50 years, the timeloop runs. More possibly, but no less unless you are counting days, and even then, if John turned the wheel on the date of Eloise Hawkings picture, then 50 exactly.
For the slightest change to occure, affecting anything or anyone of importance, it would throw the timeloop theory out the window, plain and simple.
If nothing changes, we have a simulatanious run of everything occuring between these dates, to not only stay the same, but to ensure to us the viewers, that there is NO way to break the cycle.
If everything happens as it did, Danielles boat still shipwrecks, Ekos brothers plane still crashes, which both have. And 815 still crashes and everything we have seen in the first 4 seasons of Lost happens EXACTLY as it had. Same people live, same people die. Same structures are erected, same are destroyed. Nothing can change, and history, in the eyes of THE ISLAND (metaphorically speaking) will repeat itself’it has to, because if it doesnt then’.something is different than before. If something changes on Lost, this gives the possibility that the ‘loop’ can be broken. Anything. I dont care if its Charlie being saved, or the freakin statue resurecting itself, its all the same.
Heres the thing. As I said before. Desmond saw Charlie die in a vision of the future. Not a vision of what he thought was going to happen, but a vision of the actual future. By saving his life, even for a second ( I dont care what Dan or Mommy says) it ‘changes things’. It changes the short term timeline of the island. People talk of the butterfly effect, this is an example. DO YOU REALLY THINK IT IS COINCIDENCE ONE OF CHARLIES FIRST EPISODE TITLES WAS THE MOTH?
Yeah, it was originally put for a different reason. But either the producers are picking up their missing pieces, or I am doing it for them. By Charlie living another second, minute, hour, or day, it changed what the original outcome was supposed to be.
You may argue, Im sure some will (hi highbrow), that this is all part of the master plan/timeline of the island. But heres the thing’no its not.
Like I said Des was not daydreaming when he saw Charlie die over and over, he is borderline psychic. I say borderline, because I dont think he knows the future by magic, but by science.
I feel that if Des or anyone else can dely things for a second, minute, hoiur, day again, why not push the envelope. Why not have someone delay things as long as possible, to get the island out of this loop, that it MAY be in.
Now as for you anti change, I have something for you too, aside from Juliet and Amelia/Amy.
The simple fact that they are’where they are, shows us, that as of now, as fine theorists here have stated, NOTHING has changed’that we know of. If Amy turns out to be Amelia, Sawyer didnty do squat, whether you believe it or not. Because’duhduhduh’they are still where they are.
I know pro changer’what are they going to do, just flash back to their original timeline’..?”Yes, why not? Why couldnt they if the past was changed? What, it wouldnt make sense? People flashing from one time to another without knowing what the hell happened wouldnt make sense?
Random thoughts/knowledge jumping in or out of a persons head on Lost wouldnt make sense? A person forgetting/losing their memory for no apparent reason wouldnt make sense? Hope I pushed that understanding, it would make sense. If something changes in the past, it would change the future.
I saw some alternate timelines/dimensional comments. Well, no need here on Lost, because here on Lost, there is no need. Here on Lost, if the past changes, instead of another reality suddenly existing, it simply changes the perspective mind of the person/people that the change would effect.
IE: Dan telling Des to find his Mom.
This did NOT happen in Desmonds timeline the first time. Why, because he would have remembered it. Yes something as trivial as seeing another human being screaming madly about time and help and mothers, then suddenly disappearing, would probably have a lastsing effect on a person. Especially when the person is locked up in a hatch by himself pushing a button for years on end, with noone else to talk to except his comrad, who eventually if not already, will die. Say what you want. But if nothing else, I think Des would have remembered the man who did all this, AND THEN DISAPPEARED IN FRONT OF HIS OWN TWO EYES!
This is a touchy subject for me, knowing my original view, which was Timeloop=yes, change=yes. I just dont see it possible. At least not for the loop to CONTINUE.
There is a wrench in the road ahead though’the future. Everyone, myself included, keeps saying that the past cannot be changed, but the future can.
#1, Ill be the first to admit, that is not the same thing. Of course the future can be changed, it isnt set yet’BUT’
If a timemachine exists on the island in 1974 and in 2004, then why the hell wouldnt it exist down the road, barring noone destroys it. But following what we have going, noone can destroy it until post 2004, maybe even 2007, if that is the year the O6 returned. Why? Same reason, if its destroyed before, then change occures.
So, if the machine is possible to exist in the future, it leaves something open’something big. There are two people, at least, in the ‘true’ future, who are well aware, that there is a magic wheel capable of sending the island travelling in time. They both know, because they both turned it, each taking their place in history as the perputrators who started the whole thing. Ben and John.
We have seen the island in the 70s, and post 815. But what about post 316. John doesnt realize, but technichally, in island time, he turned the wheel first. In universe time we know, it was Benjamin. But obviously dates and time mean nothing on Lost.
That being said leads ,me to my conclusion’what is time? What is the true purpose? For us, people, to have a means of measurement. But in more technical terms, it has almost no boundries, only the ones that we give it. This is where the fate/freewill question really digs in.
You cannot change the past right? What if the past is your future. You ladies and gentlemen did a great job of showing us how the island is in a sort of flashback’as Desmond was. He was not just in a flashback during ‘flashes before your eyes’ and ‘the constant’, but he was living his destiny, his timeline, his future, while everyone else was living their past. Get it. It is not just our perspective, or the losties perspective in a manner of one ‘view’ only. The perspective is seen through the eyes of the person experiencing it, the people who have no idea what is going on, and the people who know of the timetravel and ‘help’ these people find their way.
By Mrs. Hawking telling Des, he is destined to push the button’he does. For all we know, she may have just changed the past right in front of us. Maybe many ‘loops’ ago, Des bought the ring and he and Penny lived happily ever after. We will never know unless they show us though. Des would NOT remember that, the same way he DOES remember Dan saying to find Hawking.
Ive said it before, and Ill say it again. Father time is no fool, we are, and anything that has happened before will happen again. That is unless, the concept of faith, as I predict will come back and stand toe to toe with fate.
I cannot wait to hear responses on how the island is not in a loop, is nothing can be changed. Change naysayers, you have swayed me, I am on your side, at least for the moment. But in the future, I think the true faith of not only John Locke, but the other losties, maybe even Ben will come back to have a final battle with free will. And my theory will be blown to pieces by the power of the first blow. But for now, thanks to everyone who made me see a different view. I am in no way saying that loop/no change or no loop/change is the right answer.
All im saying is that if you have a belief in one, you better make room for its counterpart’
That was my comment. We argue over these things, and for once, all excellent points. Hard to really pick a right and wrong at this point. But its hard to argue the point made in this post regarding the effects of change, and a timeloop.