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Am I wrong?…part two…linking 2 seperate theories

Ok, people may be afraid to read a post with such long comments, and I want to start where we left off. If you would like to be in the conversation a little more, read my post “Amy, was I wrong”, or further, begin with Dabs, “Flies in the ointment”. A little c&p magic, I moved a very long comment from there into a post…but while doing so, I thought of something else…deeper down the rabbit hole………..
If there is NO way to change the past, meaning, that no oceanic survivors, no others, no anybody that travels through time has the capability’without at this point, resulting in a timeloop. Not one of my ‘lets be friends with antiloopers’ timeloops, no, a full blown, going round and round timeloop. Heres why.
From the time the donkey wheel was turned by Ben, to the time John turned it and stopped the island from jumping, that is the beginning and end (you decide which really happened first) of the ‘loop’.
Now, I can already hear acharaisthekey typing madly at me, but thats just how it is. Why?
Because if it is true, that NOTHING can be changed, there is NO possibility, that Ben will not turn the wheel in 2004, and even less possibility that John will not turn the wheel on 1974. 50 years, the timeloop runs. More possibly, but no less unless you are counting days, and even then, if John turned the wheel on the date of Eloise Hawkings picture, then 50 exactly.
For the slightest change to occure, affecting anything or anyone of importance, it would throw the timeloop theory out the window, plain and simple.
If nothing changes, we have a simulatanious run of everything occuring between these dates, to not only stay the same, but to ensure to us the viewers, that there is NO way to break the cycle.
If everything happens as it did, Danielles boat still shipwrecks, Ekos brothers plane still crashes, which both have. And 815 still crashes and everything we have seen in the first 4 seasons of Lost happens EXACTLY as it had. Same people live, same people die. Same structures are erected, same are destroyed. Nothing can change, and history, in the eyes of THE ISLAND (metaphorically speaking) will repeat itself’it has to, because if it doesnt then’.something is different than before. If something changes on Lost, this gives the possibility that the ‘loop’ can be broken. Anything. I dont care if its Charlie being saved, or the freakin statue resurecting itself, its all the same.
Heres the thing. As I said before. Desmond saw Charlie die in a vision of the future. Not a vision of what he thought was going to happen, but a vision of the actual future. By saving his life, even for a second ( I dont care what Dan or Mommy says) it ‘changes things’. It changes the short term timeline of the island. People talk of the butterfly effect, this is an example. DO YOU REALLY THINK IT IS COINCIDENCE ONE OF CHARLIES FIRST EPISODE TITLES WAS THE MOTH?
Yeah, it was originally put for a different reason. But either the producers are picking up their missing pieces, or I am doing it for them. By Charlie living another second, minute, hour, or day, it changed what the original outcome was supposed to be.
You may argue, Im sure some will (hi highbrow), that this is all part of the master plan/timeline of the island. But heres the thing’no its not.
Like I said Des was not daydreaming when he saw Charlie die over and over, he is borderline psychic. I say borderline, because I dont think he knows the future by magic, but by science.
I feel that if Des or anyone else can dely things for a second, minute, hoiur, day again, why not push the envelope. Why not have someone delay things as long as possible, to get the island out of this loop, that it MAY be in.
Now as for you anti change, I have something for you too, aside from Juliet and Amelia/Amy.
The simple fact that they are’where they are, shows us, that as of now, as fine theorists here have stated, NOTHING has changed’that we know of. If Amy turns out to be Amelia, Sawyer didnty do squat, whether you believe it or not. Because’duhduhduh’they are still where they are.
I know pro changer’what are they going to do, just flash back to their original timeline’..?”Yes, why not? Why couldnt they if the past was changed? What, it wouldnt make sense? People flashing from one time to another without knowing what the hell happened wouldnt make sense?
Random thoughts/knowledge jumping in or out of a persons head on Lost wouldnt make sense? A person forgetting/losing their memory for no apparent reason wouldnt make sense? Hope I pushed that understanding, it would make sense. If something changes in the past, it would change the future.
I saw some alternate timelines/dimensional comments. Well, no need here on Lost, because here on Lost, there is no need. Here on Lost, if the past changes, instead of another reality suddenly existing, it simply changes the perspective mind of the person/people that the change would effect.
IE: Dan telling Des to find his Mom.
This did NOT happen in Desmonds timeline the first time. Why, because he would have remembered it. Yes something as trivial as seeing another human being screaming madly about time and help and mothers, then suddenly disappearing, would probably have a lastsing effect on a person. Especially when the person is locked up in a hatch by himself pushing a button for years on end, with noone else to talk to except his comrad, who eventually if not already, will die. Say what you want. But if nothing else, I think Des would have remembered the man who did all this, AND THEN DISAPPEARED IN FRONT OF HIS OWN TWO EYES!

This is a touchy subject for me, knowing my original view, which was Timeloop=yes, change=yes. I just dont see it possible. At least not for the loop to CONTINUE.
There is a wrench in the road ahead though’the future. Everyone, myself included, keeps saying that the past cannot be changed, but the future can.
#1, Ill be the first to admit, that is not the same thing. Of course the future can be changed, it isnt set yet’BUT’
If a timemachine exists on the island in 1974 and in 2004, then why the hell wouldnt it exist down the road, barring noone destroys it. But following what we have going, noone can destroy it until post 2004, maybe even 2007, if that is the year the O6 returned. Why? Same reason, if its destroyed before, then change occures.
So, if the machine is possible to exist in the future, it leaves something open’something big. There are two people, at least, in the ‘true’ future, who are well aware, that there is a magic wheel capable of sending the island travelling in time. They both know, because they both turned it, each taking their place in history as the perputrators who started the whole thing. Ben and John.
We have seen the island in the 70s, and post 815. But what about post 316. John doesnt realize, but technichally, in island time, he turned the wheel first. In universe time we know, it was Benjamin. But obviously dates and time mean nothing on Lost.
That being said leads ,me to my conclusion’what is time? What is the true purpose? For us, people, to have a means of measurement. But in more technical terms, it has almost no boundries, only the ones that we give it. This is where the fate/freewill question really digs in.
You cannot change the past right? What if the past is your future. You ladies and gentlemen did a great job of showing us how the island is in a sort of flashback’as Desmond was. He was not just in a flashback during ‘flashes before your eyes’ and ‘the constant’, but he was living his destiny, his timeline, his future, while everyone else was living their past. Get it. It is not just our perspective, or the losties perspective in a manner of one ‘view’ only. The perspective is seen through the eyes of the person experiencing it, the people who have no idea what is going on, and the people who know of the timetravel and ‘help’ these people find their way.
By Mrs. Hawking telling Des, he is destined to push the button’he does. For all we know, she may have just changed the past right in front of us. Maybe many ‘loops’ ago, Des bought the ring and he and Penny lived happily ever after. We will never know unless they show us though. Des would NOT remember that, the same way he DOES remember Dan saying to find Hawking.
Ive said it before, and Ill say it again. Father time is no fool, we are, and anything that has happened before will happen again. That is unless, the concept of faith, as I predict will come back and stand toe to toe with fate.
I cannot wait to hear responses on how the island is not in a loop, is nothing can be changed. Change naysayers, you have swayed me, I am on your side, at least for the moment. But in the future, I think the true faith of not only John Locke, but the other losties, maybe even Ben will come back to have a final battle with free will. And my theory will be blown to pieces by the power of the first blow. But for now, thanks to everyone who made me see a different view. I am in no way saying that loop/no change or no loop/change is the right answer.
All im saying is that if you have a belief in one, you better make room for its counterpart’
That was my comment. We argue over these things, and for once, all excellent points. Hard to really pick a right and wrong at this point. But its hard to argue the point made in this post regarding the effects of change, and a timeloop.

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A.E.S.

Abbot Enheduanna Schwarzschild Name meaning: -Abbot: Father defined by or in religious connotation/definition. From the beginning, Lost was riddled with religious tone and it was obvious it would play some sort of role. Seemed fitting to start here. -Enheduanna: Mesopotamian High Priestess and the modern civilization’s first recorded poet. I created the name after season 1. John explaining backgammon history to Walt spawned the idea that the island may have a link yo the beginning of civilization and maybe even time itself. It was “poetic” and important to add this to my pseudonym. I needed the mother of poetry in modern civilization to match the religious “Father” in my first name. -Schwarzschild: Reference to Karl Schwarzschild and Schwarzschild Black Holes. Smoke monsters, hatches, and curing paralysis doesn’t point to black holes…but the sci-fi elements ran deep and obvious. The wheel moving the island and transporting Ben felt like it got plucked from my imagination. A.E.S.

69 thoughts on “Am I wrong?…part two…linking 2 seperate theories

  1. Just posted this comment on another theory, to help with the argument, allowing change.
    “THE ISLAND IS ALREADY BREAKING/BROKEN THE RULES OF TIME AS WE KNOW THEM.
    Time travel…the island is timetraveling. I dont know what else to say. They have already found the first COUPLE of steps toward freedom of time. There is not MEANT to be timetravel. The fact alone, that the island is timetraveling, is in fact, breaking the rules. Am I nuts or does this make sense?

  2. AES, I am so glad you posted this as a seperate theory! I felt all of the hard work you placed into the original, merited special attention.

    You really summed things up nicely! I hope this brings clarity. You definitely have a knack and an overall desire to share your insights with members, and fight for what you believe in. That is to be commended!

    ****”We argue over these things, and for once, all excellent points. Hard to really pick a right and wrong at this point. But its hard to argue the point made in this post regarding the effects of change, and a timeloop”.

    Wise words, my friend! Excellent work!

  3. I really enjoyed your expansion on this theory and hope people jump on again for the discussion. I think that someone or group is trying desperately to change the outcome of an event that has not happened yet, But the outcome is irrefutable. Theres a lot more here, But I am out the door till later.

  4. How about this? There are no time loops. The past cannot be changed in any way, no matter how small. The Losties do have free will no matter what year they’re in.

    I’m not really sure where to begin explaining myself at this point. Maybe we should just find out where people stand on these three subjects and wait until things play out? Then and only then will we know who’s right and who’s wrong.

  5. That really depends. Does the island jump around in time or just some of the people on it? Based on the flashes I’d say it’s just some of the people on it.

    The island continues on existing and progressing into the future. Meanwhile, back in the 70’s, the Losties resume their progression through time until they get back to the point where Ben turned the wheel and then…. they just continue on into the day after the wheel was turned. They don’t flash. They don’t time travel. There is sort of a loop for them, but not really… it’s not a closed loop.

  6. Because if you think about it, if the island itself flashed back in time when the wheel was turned then the beach camp and everything else would still be there. The island would be back in time but in its 2005 state.

  7. I agree with highbrow that its the losties that move through time and not the island.

    Although the argument that Dan told Desmond at the hatch to find Eloise thus changing the future is a strong case. If he had already told Desmond to do that then there is no way des wouldn’t remember him.

    Just a quick thought. Is this how alpert manages to not age. He got caught shifting in time,only he got sent back very early on in time? and now cannot age until he catches up with his ‘real’ timeline?

  8. highbrow and bigdaveg, The writers definitely confirmed in a Podcast, shortly after Season 5 began, that both ‘the island’ and ‘the losties’ are moving!

  9. The island is at least not moving in time relative to the Losties. If they both moved back to the 1970s then the Losties wouldn’t have noticed a difference unless there was something off the island they could see.

  10. I didn’t have time to read the entire theory because I am at work right now, but I believe the Losties and the island were moving together because they were both missing their constants (the O6). That explains why some people disappeared (had their constants) and some didn’t.

  11. The idea of a constant pertained to the consciousness shifting type thing that Desmond was doing. The Losties were physically travelling through time. They’re two completely different things. I don’t think constants have anything to do with it… especially for a large, inanimate object like an island.

  12. as for the loop, you said yourself..’closed’. Wheel yurns in 2004. Wheel turns in 1974. As long as both of these events happened once, witout change, everything in between will happen over and over.

  13. No, I said “not a closed loop”. Sawyer, for example, goes from 2005 to 1974, progresses through his lift until he gets back to the point when the wheel was turned and just keeps on going at that point. His younger self (who exists at the same time) flashes back to 1974.

  14. and that ‘younger self’ would experience..again…what the olderself already had. Then ‘younger’ becomes ‘older’ …wash,rinse, repeat..with new younger self returning again to 1974…?

  15. It is kind of a stupid argument to have. We won’t know until things play out on the show… or maybe if one of us can travel in time we can test out our different theories. In the mean time though I’m going to stick with my man Daniel Faraday who said “whatever happened, happened”.

  16. But it’s not ANOTHER younger self. It’s the same one. It only happens once. But time is written, like on a record as Username just described so well. If you play a song then go back to the beginning of that song is it a new song? It’s not. You’re just listening to it again.

    As viewers if the show were to focus only on Sawyer and follow him from day one of his life through to the end we would not get stuck at any point watching the same 27 years of his life over and over. Eventually we’d get past 2005 when the wheel was turned (assuming he lives that long). We might catch a glimpse of young Sawyer along the way but we’re just seeing it again. It doesn’t mean it’s happening again.

  17. Sorry, been typing responses all day on cell phone at work, can only write about 2 or 3 lines at at time, good now.
    This is the thing. He is the same Sawyer (using Sawyer as example, not actually my idea) that was around in the 1954 and 1994. So is it the same Sawyer that is around…if they both are in the same time period at the same time.
    Highbrow, I am not arguing with you in a bad way. Please dont become so frustrated. Nor am I saying the island IS in fact in a timeloop. What I am saying is, if the same events happen, from the 1954 that we are watching now, in season 5, through the 2004 that we saw in seasons 1-4, then that would mean 2 things. 1) You gentlemen were correct in assuming that you cannot “change” the past. Everything happens the same way it originally did. By originally,I mean the way things happened during these 50 years, to lead us to the crash of 815 and the turning of the wheel? correct?
    If not, please say, it makes a difference.
    Agreeing with you on the fact that there is only one Sawyer, much like there was only one Bunny. And much like sending the bunny back in time, if it catches up with the original time it was sent from, there appears, from all that see it next to the pastself bunny, that there are two bunnies. That is why I refer to him as “the other” Sawyer. I understand fully that there is 1 younger self, as much as in reality, there is only one Sawyer in general, not old and young Sawyer. It is just easier to say.

    Here is the part that is hard to explain and understand. If the wheel gets turned in 2004, it has to get turned in 1954, because time is irrelevant in this case. Meaning that action/reaction takes place. Ben turns the wheel, John turns the wheel. From our perspective, Ben does this first. From the perspective of the island and time itself, John turned the wheel long before Ben ever did. But what we saw was Ben then John.
    Ok, Im going to give this one last go. Step by step.
    -The crash of 815 occures.
    -Everything we saw in the first 4 seasons takes place as it did on island.
    -NPLH, Ben turns the wheel, sending the island or the losties, it matters not, even if both, skipping through time.
    -The events of the 50s play out, with the Losties in the 50s, and all the other timeperiods that it stopped at, until the losties rest in 1970s, when john moves the wheel, stopping the skipping island)
    -Sawyer, Juliet, and the rest of the leftover losties live 3 years of their lives in the 50s leading to the last scene we have seen, of Jack, Kate, and Hurley arriving in front of Sawyer.

    From here, you say that nothing can or will be changed, up to the point where Ben turns the wheel. If this is correct, everything we have seen occur, on the show of Lost, will be…will occur not again, but the same as it had, the first time. (which would actually be the only time…I get it)
    Now, here is where my TIMEloop idea comes to play. I do not mean, the losties will, in the same concienceness loop through time, but “time” itself will repeat. Time, being nothing that we can see hear or touch. The events will play out exactly as they had originally played out. If they actually concience jumped through time, they would remember these events in 2004, when 815 first crashed. As far as we know, this is not the case. Therefor, everything that has played out, will play again.
    Think of it like this. The island is a constant. It is always there. It can be manipulated, changed, structures erected, and fall, but the island is there. It is the one thing, that as far as the show has been going, it has existed to our knowledge. From 1954, to 1974, to 2004, the island is there.
    Lets use Jacob. PRETEND Jacob exists in all times. pretend Jacob sees the island, as god is to perceive the earth. Pretend Jacob does not jump through time when the island moves, pretend he sees everything that occures in all time periods between the dates of 1954 to 2004. All seeing, all knowing. If timeperiods were drawn on paper, not lines but events, then how would this affect our vision of Lost. We would see say for example, the events of 1934play out to 2024. all the events occuring after 2004 would happen as a present to Jacob viewing this. But in between all this, the time between 1954 and 2004, would happen again and again. You are viewing from inside the box still…step out with me for a moment.
    This is not going to stop the pre 1954 period from happening or the post 2004 period from happening. This would not effect the time before or after the ‘loop’ I am getting at. What it would mean though, is that the events between these dates would occur, as you said, like a CD starting at the beginning again, everytime that wheel gets turned in 2004.
    I agree, that nothing new will come of this. You said,
    ” If you play a song then go back to the beginning of that song is it a new song? It

  18. Highbrow, with serious respect, I have enjoyed this discussion with you, and everyone else jumping in.
    I still am back and forth on timeloop/no timeloop, and change/no change. But I feel that one goes hand in hand with the other. The timeloop is not the tragedy on Lost, but the story is. What happens in the time period that I feel is being repeated, and why it happens. Noone who traveled is technically DOOMED by the fact that they traveled to the past, but its the events that occur in the past, their future/present that make the difference. The timeloop idea to me, is the only way, in my eyes, that they could actually affect a future that already occured. Without this replay, anyone who comes along down the road and finds the orchid/well/wheel, could go back and change things. But as stated, if they change things, they have already done it, therefor, they change nothing, only cause events from their future, to affect their past, or is it events from their past to effect their future…?

  19. AES, you are doing an amazing job at dissecting this issue, and in a sense, arguing both sides. And since “sides” are such an important theme to the show overall, I think this discussion would make the writers/producers proud!

    So, I have thought and thought on this, and then read some comments, nearly yelling at the screen…and it varies between “Yes!!!” and “WHAT are you even talking about????”

    Definitely exciting, no matter what!

    Regarding the island moving in space and time – Can someone please find the conversation where Hawking describes to the O6 what is happening? Doesn’t she allude to the island moving in time AND space? So sure, it is not moving relative to the Losties timeline, but it is moving in both ways. This explanation of what has been occurring is why I agree with the comments about the connection to the principle of a “Constant.”

    Highbrow, I don’t understand how you can say …”Meanwhile, back in the 70

  20. username, I give you full ‘props’ for substantiating your position and backing up your claims with more than just opinion. That is IMO, what intelligent debate is. Congratulations for bringing something viable to the discussion.

    As far as I am concerned, if you cannot or will not substantiate your thoughts and claims you lose credibility!

  21. kimberly, you have obviously given this a great deal of thought! The proof, is in what you have reminded us, about ‘the island’.

    That ‘the island’ is indeed a very special place, and it is, as the writers have so often stated, moving somewhere within the space/time continuum.

  22. AES, I also picked up on the reference to the record analogy being a new song that is playing.

    You are right, it is the same song being replayed. The problem when a record begins to ‘skip’ is, when you replay it, there is no guarantee if it will get stuck in the same groove, and start skipping again.

    Or, if it will damage the record permanently, making it somehow unable to properly replay.

    This is how we should be looking at these events. The full repurcussions of ‘the island’ skipping are not yet known.

    Daniel Faraday has made a lot of statements. I look at some of the mistakes he has made.

    1) Eloise (the rat)
    2) Theresa Spencer
    3) Charlotte

    He has also had to enlist Desmond to find his mother. His ability to ‘get it right’, is less than accurate at times.

    I don’t think we should take ALL of his statements, quite so literally, given his track record.

  23. AES, you have done a great job presenting the connection between the timeloop and ‘changing the future.’

    You explained this BRILLIANTLY: “Here is the part that is hard to explain and understand. If the wheel gets turned in 2004, it has to get turned in 1954, because time is irrelevant in this case. Meaning that action/reaction takes place. Ben turns the wheel, John turns the wheel. From our perspective, Ben does this first. From the perspective of the island and time itself, John turned the wheel long before Ben ever did. But what we saw was Ben then John.”

    Doesn’t it seem like the issue of influencing/altering future time is in the perspective of the character(s)? John (finally) turned the wheel because Christian told him, for the second time, that the wheel needed to be turned. So, John was in the future (2004) during the first conversation in the cabin, but he also had this first conversation in what is now a past year. The next conversation with Christian, though technically in the past, but still a day for him that was, in a way, the ‘next’ day.

    I also agree with your comment on my theory intended to be your follow-up — which I will say, THIS is a much better way to follow that — about the island breaking the rules of time as we know them.

    Dabs also made a nice and concise point about the “change has already occurred.” Doesn’t this summarize it well enough for our understanding at this point…that the Losties from the future (2004) going to the past (1954) and relaying events ABOUT the future (whether it is Locke’s birth in 1956 or whatever year they end up burying Jughead) by definition ALTER the future.

    Whether or not it was “SUPPOSED” to happen isn’t even my point at this time. It’s the idea that the connection with this special island creates the opportunity to alter future events.

    So AES, it would seem like your “unless….” comment at the end would be your thought (doubt, inkling, whatever) that there is a possibility that the future that we have seen could be altered.

    You said, “No one who traveled is technically DOOMED by the fact that they traveled to the past, but its the events that occur in the past, their future/present that make the difference. The timeloop idea to me, is the only way, in my eyes, that they could actually affect a future that already occured.”

    I suggest that people who are rigidly for or against altering time propose what is going to happen if in the next few episodes we see:

    – Young Ben Linus is on the island where Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley are armed with the knowledge of future events. Do THEY motivate the purge? (Which would align with the “everything that already happened will happen and it CAN NOT be changed” …but it would also align the thinking that the LOOP influences what happens in the future, right?) Pro-changers will say there is a chance that we will see the purge not happen, right? (Perhaps given the clue/foreshadowing of Sawyer interrupting the exchange between Amy and the Others.)

    – Young Ben Linus is on the island where Juliet is posing as Dharma. What chain of events will this affect?

    – 2007 Ben Linus and 2007 John Locke make it over to the big island that is in 1977…how will this play out. We can’t forget that Ben has been extremely motivated to get BACK to the island for some reason.

    I’d love to hear some ideas on this.

    Great, great job AES in putting things together.

  24. Dabs, obviously I have a lot to say. Thanks for pointing out Daniel’s credibility. That was something I left out. I agree.

    I happened to take his whole, “whatever happened, happened” statement as having multiple possible meanings.

    Charlotte just died in front of him. As you pointed out, this is his third ‘failure’.

    Yet, Charlotte told him that he tried to stop her from dying. And it still happened.

    But, how will he respond once he sees Jack, Kate, Hurley back on the island? Especially since they come bringing the information of future events, which is that Desmond found Hawking and said “I have a message from your son.”

    Will he still be muttering, in grief, “Whatever happened, happened…”

    Doubtful.

  25. Username and Wilis, I like where you are headed with that thought.

    Dabs, as usual, thanks for the backup and encouragement for the post.

    Kim, Kim, Kim. You are now required to comment on everyone of my posts. Whether you agree or not. Maybe if you think this much like me, you can explin to me why Im wrong on a subject even. Considering you took thoughts I wanted to include, thoughts that make me dive further into the rabbit hole, and even the underlying “unless”, at the end.
    I really tried to think of some reason this would not continue to occure, outside of normal passing time, without actually changing the main events leading to the wheel turning. We obviously have lots more to learn, and it WILL change ALL of our theory process every episode that passes.
    And yes, the unless, is a sign to my belief in “faith” playing a role on the show, to at least give the science part a good couple of rounds. Although, I dont know if faith can go the distance with science. The writers/producers history shows differently.
    Thank you for reading my mind and ubderstanding what I was really getting at.
    And I swear, I didnt mean to take your follow up. It was good, I wanted to send this message as well. It was Dabs, Dabs made me do it….

  26. Kim…we were posting at same time there. You and Dabs pointing out Daniels flaws, cant a guy catch a break for once? lol
    Kidding. Ive been saying for a while now, that the best thing about the rules of science, is that they can be broken. Even if he has it all figured out, why couldnt he end up being wrong. Things change, science evolves, and brilliant people make mistakes. He wouldnt have even discovered time travel, if Desmond wouldnt have told him the correct numbers in “The Constant”.
    Hows that for a “chiken or the egg”?
    Not that the guy is in the right mind to be trying to help right now either. The guy just sees the woman he loves die in his arms, and finds out, in some twisted Scifi, Shakespearian tragedy kind of way, that he is the cause. He definetly needs some good news right now, and maybe Mommys words will be enough. Question is, what side will he be on when he comes back around.

  27. First, I want to say the writers do an excellent job using sound, proven science to incorporate the storyline. However, it is unlikely everyone can agree at this point because it is in fact ‘Theoretical Physics’ and not even the experts agree. And, as stated numerous times, Faith plays a huge role in addition to science.

    I personally believe there are hints suggesting ‘real change’ is possible for the purposes of the show. The situation that comes to mind is when Desmond has flashes of Charlie’s death and he continues to save him. (I know this is before Ben/Locke turned the wheel, but as other people have stated it seems Desmond is capable of seeing the future; and the future can be changed.)

    Unlike Michael, who could not die even at his own hand until he fulfilled his own destiny (and assuming he is in fact dead?), there were several instances where Charlie SHOULD have died.

    In saving Charlie, Desmond created change. He was able to assist Desmond in the Looking Glass, and I don’t think anyone else on the island would have known how to play the chord progression to “Good Vibrations” on a key pad.

    Initially I thought, “Play your own kind of music. Sing your own kind of song…” was a metaphor re: Desmond’s destiny to turn the key, enter the numbers, etc. However, after; I heard Faraday’s explanation of the skipping record; the fact Desmond remembered Faraday’s visit to the station; etc. I thought, “maybe the song is a metephor for making YOUR OWN destiny through free-will and change?
    It seems that a lot of the additional evidence supporting change has competing evidence not permitting change. That is why it is fun to discuss these ideas, bring facts to the forum and hear what others have to say in a respectful manner and I’m glad I found this site.

  28. Willis! The Desmond saving Charlie created change idea! Oh the can of worms you opened. I agree with you and have had it out about it recently. I’ll stand beside you until the end on this one.

  29. Thanks for the comment, AES! I always thought the song was somehow significant. Watching re-runs along with new episodes put it in perspective.
    I also forgot to mention specifically this applies to free-will vs. fate, and the idea of a time loop, etc.
    Username, I hope this clarifies my earlier post (I was in a mad rush!) and maybe others can pick up as well. It was your comment that inspired my post.

  30. Be aware. You said it. And if they are not tired of arguing with me, they will come. Personally, I cant for the life of me understand how this would not qualify as change.

  31. Way to go willis! You grasped the entire concept in a proverbial nutshell! Your comment, was no less than brilliant!

    Welcome to the wonderful world of Lost theorizing willis! You are a breath of fresh air, and the voice of reason!

  32. He is a brave one, Ill give him that. Its a touchy subject, as of late. Reruns are a great way of finding new clues. If you know the show well enough, which most do, something fun is to watch random episodes from different seasons. Crazy how many connections you make doing that. Things show up youve never caught before, and usually help understand the current episode.

  33. Of course, feel free to copy anything you wish…

    So we’re saying that Desmond having visions of possible future events and working in teh present to change those events is the same as having experiences (actually living through them), going back in time and changing those experiences? Those are two totally, completely, utterly different things.

    Whatever is going on with Desmond is something different than what’s happening with the Losties. The Losties have physically travelled back in time. Desmond gets flashes from the future and time travels in his mind. Desmond changes the future by changing the present. The argument is “can the Losties change the future by changing the past”.

  34. Highbrow, I added my disclaimer that these events occur before the wheel is turned, anticipating the argument you mention.
    With that said, I still respectfully disagree with you because when Desmond sees a flash it is because he is either: seeing something from the past (that has changed); is seeing the future; or he is ‘remembering’ what is going to happen in the near future/present. When Desmond has flashes of Charlie’s death it appears to be de ja vu because he has already experienced that event and he is seeing what will happen in the near future. So, in my opinion, Charlie should have died but Desmond saved him. Charlie died anyway, but the fact he lived ultimately caused change.
    As I said earlier, we can disagree all we like, but hopefully this will be cleared up for us soon.

  35. I’m sure it will be cleared up soon…

    So are you saying that Desmond on the island is 2004 is from the future? Because if he isn’t then what he’s getting really are only visions. Unless he’s changing something from his past then he’s actually only making decisions in the present (which is something we all do all the time). The only thing special about it is that he has more information than we do.

  36. How else would he have the information if he hasn’t already lived through it and is remembering it?
    I’m thinking that maybe this isn’t the first time this has happened. Maybe he’s reliving the events through time travel or a loop and he’s trying to change things so it doesn’t happen the same way?
    It’s also possible that Faraday has something to do with this, and sent Desmond’s consciousness back in time like the rat, Eloise. I have no evidence for this but it would make sense.

  37. His visions seem different from when his mind was jumping into the past… There is another theory on here I read recently about one of Desmond’s visions… when he saw Penny coming to the island and he tried to make sure things happened a certain way… I think something (the island, Jacob, whatever) is giving him this information. I think that whatever it is is manipulating him.

    About the loop… we’ve seen people go back in time already and they didn’t get any younger when they arrived so… if there is a loop going from 2005 to 1974 back to 2005, etc, wouldn’t they be dead soon after they arrive in 1974 the second time? If Sawyer was 30 in 2005 wouldn’t he be 61 once they get from 1974 back to 2005?

    If Desmond is in a loop then he’s not going to live through too many of them… and why the heck doesn’t he know he’s from the future?

  38. That’s right. Maybe Desmond is getting his visions because of what happened in the Swan and it got screwed up somehow when they got off the bearings while they were flying to the freighter?

    He could then be having visions of the future. Still though, he wouldn’t be changing anything. Not from the point of view of looking from the future to the past…

    Anyway, I gotta go… I’ll think of more stuff to say that nobody will agree with later. Not that I’m doing it on purpose mind you…

  39. I agree that Jacob, the island, or Faraday could very well be manipulating Desmond. I also think it’s possible he has either travelled back in time or his conscious travelled to the future.

    As for the time traveller’s age, you mention that they don’t get younger, so I would predict that they don’t ‘grow older’ as well. I think of two popular methods of time travel I heard in college physics (…and the History Channel/Nat. Geo, lol.)

    One involves accelerating faster then the speed of light and distorting space/time. Some theorists state the since the speed of light is a constant speed (can’t be changed relative to the speed/acceleration of the persons viewing it), that anything traveling at that rate would also be constant. I assume this means they would not age? And, maybe, never die!?

    The other theory that comes to mind is wormholes. Similiar to the effect of traveling at the speed of light, wormholes distort space/time and allow the person to travel through time. If the person travels through a wormhole, they will ‘time-travel’ at a rate greater then or equal to the speed of light, so they will also be ‘constant,’ and will not age…

    Highbrow, I’m not sure if this means the person will never resume the aging process, OR if/when it will resume. Richard Alpert does not age? I believe the writers would not allow ALL of the Losties/main characters to suffer this fate. So the process will probably resume at some point.

  40. He wouldnt “age” in that manner because he is physically time traveling. If the “younger version” were to concience travel to the “older” mind, then yes, he would quickly age.
    Willis, I think Richard does age. It is a manipulation of time that gives the appearance. And if he is seperatly time traveling (no evidence so far) then that could really explain it. As much faith as I have in “faith” on Lost, I dont think Richard is special in that way.
    Highbrow, please do return. You have become my favorite person to disagree with here. Its not a bad thing. If I felt what you were saying had no merit, I would probably ignore you. You bring thought to the table, make my head hurt. And have either progressed the timeloop theory…or destroyed it. I guess we’ll see on that point, but nice job with your line of thought.

  41. AES, Don’t be so quick to wave the white flag just yet. It’s just one tiny detail. Makes no major difference in the overall picture.

  42. …………no…thank you though.
    It is as hard for me to believe what people were saying as it was them to believe me i guess. All the discussion, and there was one major thing that made no sense to me, or anyone in discussion. Something that I guess I…or everyone else missed. Odds are against me. But if I do nothing else with my theories, I at least stick with them, without proof of difference. I will be openminded on this, more than usual.
    But If I am going to be wrong for a week, why not make it at least two. Im going to stick with my gut and the understanding of what I am saying compared to others. This in all probability will be blown out of the sky next week. All it would take I guess, is one of the Dharma/losties seeing any 36ers, other than the O5.
    I may be wrong on this. But I will ride it to the end. I think the 316 plane, John, Ben, Frank, and the other survivors are in 2007. I think the O5 and Dharma are in 1977. I do not think there are two islands, and yes, I think the smaller island is still with the bigger one. I really dont know how to explain this. I really dont have as much faith in it as I did, but I will stand by it, and admit my mistake when it plays out…Highbrow…(lowering flag) Im not going to debate this anymore until my thoughts are straight. Dabs…thank you? LOL, I dont know.

  43. See, I knew you would revive! Burn that flag, now will you!

    In no way does it alter your theory, whatsoever. But, I know how you feel, if it’s any consolation.

    You may be perfectly correct! In fact, I would not be surprised. I cannot and I’ve tried, believe me, to explain that damn runway. Time wise! I can’t! lol

    That really bugs me! That’s why I was hoping to avoid it in my theory!

    The writers better have something good in mind, that’s all I can say! lol

  44. I’m usually on during the day and not so much in the evening.. sorry… I used to post on another lost theories site (now defunct) and while it was usually pretty good for debates and discussions, you guys are proving to be much more fun to disagree with!

    Here’s the problem I have with those two versions of time travel and the effect they would have on aging… The travelling faster than light version affects the passage of time in relation to the person travelling while they’re travelling. Once they stop time would resume normally for them and they would begin aging. With the wormhole theory there really is no reason to believe that they would age any differently at all. Neither would account for a lack of aging after the person has finished travelling.

  45. To clarify what I was trying to say above (if it is possible… I don’t think I did a great job of explaining) is that WHILE a person is travelling, theory states they should not age, as they are ‘constant,’ and unchanging. However, when they stop, they should either: resume the aging process, or resume aging only after returning to the period in which they began.
    I will try to pick up some more on this later this evening

  46. A.E.S., what detail are you referring to? I haven’t had time to get to all other theories. I’m curious to know what you are talking about.
    Dabs, I appreciate your committment! I also try to stand by my theories and beliefs; but I am also willing to admit when I’m wrong and am open-minded to new ideas. Let’s hope we are correct!

  47. Hi willis, the discussion which led to AES returning to this post, originally took place in my new theory, entitled, “Another Fine Mess you’ve Gotten Us Into”.

    Check it out!

  48. AES, I have stumbled upon something, that might make it possible for the people on Hydra Island, to be in 2007!

    Hydra Island is a 1/4 of a mile off of the main Island, according to Lostpedia. Ben told Sawyer when he was being held captive on Hydra Island, that they used the submarine to travel back and forth to the main island.

    Cesar found some Egyptian hieroglyphs at the Station which reads, kdi rk In Egyptian. In English it means “FLOW TIME”.

    I checked out ‘Flow Time’ and it is based upon Galileo’s study of time, and water flow etc.

    Therefore, it would be possible IMO for Hydra Island to be in a different time frame, although I can’t state this conclusively.

    At least it’s something to consider!

  49. The island is in a bubble of sorts, the time in the real world is 2007, the time on the island is 1977. If the plane crashed and there is 2 different times occuring at the same time. If you think that the 316 people were split to different times, and John can see the main island…nevermiind, you obviously are not opened to being swayed on this.
    Got look on that Dabsi, I am very interested to find out (if we do) if they mean that.

  50. AES, what makes me think Hydra Island could be in the 2007 time frame, is ‘the others’ always used the submarine to get back and forth, and it is only 1/4 of a mile away.

    They never used the trawler or the boat they gave to Michael. Given that Dharma only uses the submarine to come and go from the main island, it may have to do with ‘time differential’.

    Considering this information was found by Cesar, may confirm it is 2007 on Hydra Island.

    I am now willing to embrace this notion, because at least it makes sense to me now.

    Maybe, I am the only person who thought, otherwise! lol

  51. Cesars find was a big tip off. All those documents. Nobody came to see the crash. My thought is a little different, but I think we are going the same direction. Nice job Dabsi. You are not the only one. Talked to a couple people I know who watch the show…yeah, they thought I was nuts.

  52. What about when Karl brought Kate and Sawyer from Hydra Island back to the mainland after their stay in the polar bear cages? They didn’t take a submarine…

  53. No they did not…I am agreeing with you highbrow. At the same time, do we really think Karl could man a sub?
    Regardless, I think there is something that could show they are in ’07, without saying theyre in ’07. If they do show the runway. I think my idea is a little off base with some.
    With the understanding that the island disappeared when Ben turned the wheel, I think that it is possible that the hydra and the main island are in 2007. And the losties are still in ’77. This doesnt make sense really, and I have absolutly no way of proving or explaining why I think that, but I just do. I think the hydra is in the radius, and the island just exists in two different times, not like a double, but more like how people do. Just because you exist in the present, doesnt mean you didnt exist in the past. Like I said, cannot explain with real logic. Call this a whim, or even just perspective, we all know mine is a little different, but thats what I think.

  54. AES, my comment wasn’t meant to be in opposition to anything you’ve said here. It was pointed out that we never saw the Others use their boat to get back and forth from the island and while that is true that we haven’t seen the Others do it, we have seen it done.

  55. Oh i know, thats why i said that at the beginning. Just to let you know we ‘were in the same boat’….sorry I had to.

    But yeah, I thought that little diddy over and do remember about the island to island trip.
    I was just saying that evenif they did use the sub for that…I dont think Bens going to let, or train him, how to man a sub. At least not until a few more trips into room 23.

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