Why Don’t They Remember? by Donald A. Salerno
Why Don’t They Remember?
There have been a number of posts indicating that Ben must have known the losties when they came to the Island in 2004 because (as we will see) he knew them as a boy since they have now appeared in DAHRMA time. However, the view that Ben already knew them all at that point in time is not consistent with the version of time travel given to us in LOST.
Lets look at two examples:
1. 2007/2008 Charlotte suddenly remembers right before she dies that Daniel Faraday is a creepy old guy that warns not to come back to the Island. This memory only now occurs because the time skips will now cause Daniel to stop in DHARMA time and become the guy who warns here. Prior to the time skip, while they were close friends Charlotte never had this memory.
2. 2007/2008 Desmond suddenly wakes up with a memory he has not had up until that point of Faraday telling him to seek out his mother.
We need to understand one very important aspect: THERE IS NO LOOP only a single and very possibly immutable time-line.
LOST’s view of time travel is that time is like traffic traveling on a one way unstoppable street with a specific horrible end. What we have also learned is that the Donkey wheel can allow cars on that street to move out of their place to the back of the line or to the front of the line and anywhere in-between, but ultimately no matter what they do they are still in that line heading all toward the same end. There appears to be no way to get off the road.
Now, back to 2004 when all of our Losties crash on the Island we know they will not travel to DARMA time until 2007/2008. Therefore 2004-2007 Ben would have no memory of them. However, 2008 Ben will now suddenly begin to have memories of them (much like Charlotte and Desmond did ) flooding his brain since they are now back in time affecting that time period. This is precisely why it would appear that even with the possibility of time travel no one can really change anything. As we know, the 2004 Losties will not travel to 1974-77 until 2008 and therefore they when they first crashed they would have had no memory at that point of DHARMA, Ben, Alpert ect. The 2008 Losties that are now in DHARMA time now knowing everything that occurred from 2004-2008 will still be unable to affect the future because the line to 2004 has already happened, and while their place in that time-line has now changed, the direction has not. Even if they use the Donkey Wheel to now go back to 2004 with all the knowledge they have gained and play it all out again they could change nothing. (This is because time itself would have compensated and course corrected for 2008 losties going to 1974-77 in an effort to come back and change 2004-2008.) Likewise, as 2008 Ben starts to have memories of the 1974 Losties in his past, there is nothing he can do to change anything because he is now in 2008 with those memories and time will have already course corrected from 1974-2008 to make sure everything ends up toward the same end. There may have been been some changes in exactly how that time period played out in Ben’s 2008 mind, but still the same ultimate conclusion and he would have no memory of a different time line or play out of those events leading to 2008. This is what is driving Faraday nuts. Everybody is looking for a way to change the end but everything one can do, even with time travel, brings one to the same place. Desmond Hume is the one guy with the ability to remember all the different time lines in his mind and could be the key to creating a tangent line that changes the ending. Christian Sheppard and John Locke both dead and now alive are now anomalies of the time line. Time cannot compensate or course correct as they are not even supposed to be in the time line anymore. They as well might have the ability to have what Faraday and gang are looking for: a way to change the end. Theory by Donald A Salerno
Ok, you knew it would be me. If there is no change and no loop, how are the 2004 Losties (yes, I am aware they are all the same Losties) going to do all of this again? My view is this…
If there is NO change in what occures, because the island is in a bubble of sorts from the rest of the world, would that not cause the 2004 Losties to do the same thing again, every time, forever. Wouldnt no change, mean a repeat in the wheel turning and everything in between of Locke and Ben turning the wheel?
I have argued this topic to death, and seems I am the only one that looks at the situation like this. Iam looking for either ANYONE else to join me, or ANYONE to convince me otherwise.
What about Daniel’s comment that “whatever happened, happened”? That suggests that they *are* in a loop and that they already did what they were going to do to affect the future. However, I think they must be affecting the timeline because Sun and Lapidus are at the barracks where everything is still covered with run down Dharma logos etc. Unless they are also in the past. Perhaps before The Others decided to use the barracks?
AES I think there will be a change. I am just not sure what it is or who will bring it about.
Whatever happened, happened actually suggests they are not in a loop. What it implies is that Daniel has knowledge of the future and knows it cannot be changed. If they already did what they were going to do over and over they would have memories of the most recent time line. Because the losties had no memory of DHARMA, Ben and the others when they crashed which means the events had not already occurred at least under 1 time loop. This is the first loop and it ends with calamity. Having knowledge of how it ends does not mean it has occurred over and over.
Actually brondar1, I am quite surprised with your reasoning in this theory, as it almost contradicts your previous theory!
That was an awesome theory, btw.
I cannot get on-board with this type of theory. For me, it defies logic, and would lend no purpose or meaning to the story or the character’s purpose, IMO.
As a writer, I am sure you would agree with those sentiments.
Nicely written, as always, brondar1.
madalayna – The episode had a “30 years earlier” which proves that Sun and Lapidus are not in the past.
I like this. It explained everything nicely in a quick read. This is (the) one part of LOST that I still don’t understand, until the show has proven it.
Some people need to know the definition of such terms as “Time Loop” and “Paradox”.
lost4815162342, I have written a theory, on the time-loop, with supporting references from Wikipedia on what constitutes a time loop.
Perhaps, you might like to give it a read! it’s called, Yep, they’re in a time loop!….
lost4815162342
what the heck are you talking about? I think everyone here knows the difference between a loop and a paradox.
dabiatchishere
I do not think this differs from my prior theory. I believe the show is trying to make us believe nothing can be changed, but ultimately Faraday will be wrong. I also do not believe the losties have played this out over and over again, which does not differ at all from my two prior theories. What I do believe is that there are those who have knowledge of the events that are to occur because of prior time travel experiment either through DHARMA or by the original inventor of the wheel and they are trying to figure out a way to change the events.
just got to say for all those that may not be able to grasp the time loop theory read this its perfect. The cars on a road and 1 way system you cant exit is a great and simple way of explaing it 🙂
brondar1, please call me dabs.
I suppose I got the impression from the large print, where you clearly state, THERE IS NO LOOP. That is something I can’t wrap my brain around! That would constitute that change is an impossibility!
However, I think the reasoning you give behind why and how people’s memories of the events they recall, does make good sense. I have no argument there.
You are right about the show misleading its viewers, by making them think, Daniel Faraday’s words are to be believed.
I do think it detracts from the wonderful statements you made in your other theory, though. It has everything to do with change, faith vs free will, etc. None of this would have any relevance or meaning, if it were all for naught.
Dabs, I guess what I am saying is there are not multiple loops. If you ever have seen the movie Donnie Darko they talk about a tangent time line. I believe the goal of those in the know are trying to create a tangent time-line ( an exit off the road they are on to a different outcome) The current line they are on will not allow for paradoxes (that is why Ben is not in 77, because he already is in 77 as a kid) and it will try to course correct to avoid the paradox. In the LOST universe if you wanted to travel back in time and kill your father before you were born it could not occur. Because you are already alive in the future to even attempt it means that there is no way you will ever actually accomplish that goal. (unless there are parallel universes with alternate realities). I think LOST is making it clear there are not alternate universes and only 1 reality. So the only way to fix things in the LOST universe is to create a tangent time line off of the real time-line. The only way to accomplish that is to find a way to fool time so that it does not course correct for anything you attempt. A person who should be dead and is back alive in the time-line may have the ability to blow the space time continuum and create a tangent time line with a different outcome. This is because they have become an anomaly of the current time line and are thus not trapped by its constraints. I believe LOST will use this route to ultimately defeat Faraday’s, whatever happened happened. However, I think this season will end with the appearance that all is hopelessly LOST and nothing can ever be changed.
brondar1, I do understand what you are saying and it is logical. I have written a few theories regarding some of the very things you have addressed in your comment.
It is strictly the NO time loop aspects I disagree with, for the reasons mentioned.
There are two-camps of thought, so your theory will resonate with people.
Thanks for taking the time to provide further thoughts and details.
dab’s
Riddle me this if there are multiple loops and multiple iterations why doesn’t anyone seem to remember the past time-lines? Are they just all pretending not to remember?
I gotta say Im having a great time right now
brondar1, I have never stated I believe there are multiple time loops or iterations.
Perhaps, if you read some of my theories on the time loop, and similar theories, it may answer your questions.
brondar1, This is an explanation from Wikipedia, which in part, I based my theory upon.
(from Wikipedia)
A time loop or temporal loop is a common plot device in science fiction (especially in universes where time travel is commonplace) in which time runs normally for a set period (usually a day or a few hours) but then skips back like a broken record. When the time loop
I need a vacation but I can’t break away.
🙂
You guys are great!
were all waiting brondar1
Dab’s based on above, your talking about 1 loop with multiple iterations, re-living the same events over and over till they get it right. I have read your theories and you do refer to iterations:
From your “Yep they are in a Loop”
“Iteration means, the action or a process of iterating or repeating: as a procedure in which repetition of a sequence of operations yields results successively closer to a desired result.”
If the losties and everyone on earth a living through the same loop over and over again and their memory gets reset (per Wikipedia.) My question would be how would anyone ever know that they were even in the loop (since their memory gets reset except for a bit of déjà vu thrown in here an there) and that they had to desperately get out of the loop? Not one other person in all of lost experiences a deja vu of a previous iteration or alternate version of the loop (other than Desmond).
There’s way more than deja vu in play in LOST. There’s people who already are privy to the exact events outside of mere deja vu (like Ben, Hawkins, Widmore). There are those like Desmond who actually have the capacity to remember alternate sequences of the current time line. There are those getting information from the dead (Miles, Hurley) And there are at least two dudes who were once dead now alive.
Brondar, How is it, if there is a loop,
“Because the losties had no memory of DHARMA, Ben and the others when they crashed which means the events had not already occurred at least under 1 time loop. This is the first loop and it ends with calamity. Having knowledge of how it ends does not mean it has occurred over and over.”
This is what I dont understand about this statement…
If there is only one loop, Im guessing you are referring to only one cycle, which would make it not technically a loop, how could everything not happen again and again. It would be the younger version of the losties crashing, then travelling back in time to 1977-whenever they shall die or leave or whatever, then because nothing changes, in 2004, the same losties younger selves will crash on the island again. This will occur over and over. This, I am not looking at on a concience level. They wouldnt technically realize this was happening over and over. But if one would like to dive into the religious aspects of Lost, faith of many kinds, believing in a soul, that kind of fun…you have yourself a serious problem here. At what point would the religious soul rest. At what point, would a man of faith, say that his soul is at peace.
I guess we’ll work on how the timeloop would not repeat…then start swimming in faith.
Yeah, Im here. Im always here.
A true Man of Faith, Soul is always at peace
AES great question but lets assume the calamity is so great it rips the very fabric of space time. Say for instance, just for fun, an H-Bomb perhaps explodes on a creepy island which has exotic matter that gives it the ability to create worm holes and time vortexes. Something like that could be pretty bad. Now lets say it occurred in 2010. So if at 2010 the fabric of space time collapses then there is no ability for time to loop or the possibility of a reset because there is no such thing as our universe. My opinion is that what is to occur is so bad there is no second change, no other loop, no other chance. Luckily, there are those who have knowledge from the future who need to stop these events. The problem is how!
Not if you see a double of yourself on a timetraveling island, that may or may not be a monster that is made of black pillars of smoke, after you were possibly one of the lucky people to be in 2 plane crashes, this after being given the ability to walk again from the first one. But you were lucky enough the second time to almost commit suicide, only to be saved by your possible mentor/enemy/friend/half-brother, but then he kills you by strangulation a minute later. Next you wake up on the same god forsaken island, that god supposedly cannot see, and really have no clue as usual what to do next. Not to mention in a previous life being betrayed or left by every single person you ever cared about….heavy breathing
brondar1, I believe you stated multiple loops and multiple iterations. That is what I am disagreeing on.
In your theory, you are describing exactly what a ‘temporal loop’ is, in referencing the characters.
The problem you have and others who are subscribing to the NO TIME LOOP is, you cannot provide any supporting evidence to substantiate your claims. I have, and am satisfied with my conclusions!
You don’t have to agree, and you don’t have to subscribe to anything that doesn’t work for you. But, I won’t be abandoning any of my conclusions, until at least one of you can provide something to back up your claims!
As for your statement, that nobody else has deja vu, other than the characters you have mentioned, how do you arrive at that conclusion? There has been no information provided one way or the other by the show to give any indication if this is true or not. The ONLY person we do know for certain who has experienced deja vu is Desmond.
The bottom line is, if you wish to persuade me, you and your counterparts will have to back it up with some research.
that was to smoke, not you brondar
OT, a wise man indeed!
AES, glad you’ve stepped in. lol I can always count on you.
But Brondar, wouldnt that include change?
as in changing the past?
Sorry brondar1 didn’t mean to make light of this I just think the way they have presented time with the respect to the Island and the Earth and that it is separate from earth time is weak. And then from what I can see so far, Theirs 4 way’s to TT IF THERES MORE CHIME IN. You can turn a wheel, put it on it’s axis and skip, Fly on a plane and flash to another time different than the other passengers, Consciousness travel, However Farady got his mouse to travel. what i miss. and the producers said no TT
Never miss your comments Smokey! You know I know your watching this as much as I was ;]
and evryone believed the producers, even after the “constant”, I love it, lol
Im messing around A.E.S., But did not finish my last statement. Anyway I think untill someone like Faraday or Chang gives us some rules this will continue to be a bit frustrated, but hey have a little Faith it’ll come.
Im gonna go right a Theory on how Sawyer is right back where he started poor guy.
Dab’s
#1 I do not believe in a temporal loop. I believe time is a straight line which in LOST appears to have a very bad end. I believe the wheel is a device that is allowing people to travel at different point on that line hoping to change something. However, when the line ends it ends.
#2. I guess I a missing how you wrote a whole theory called “Yep their in a time loop” but your telling me I am the one who believes in loops and iterations when I do not.
#3 I can’t prove a negative. But I bet if we played 5 seasons of LOST before a jury and asked them to tell us based on the “evidence” presented who experienced what we might call deja vu they would be hard pressed to come up with anyone other than Desmond.
AES yes a change would have to take place in the past and only someone from the past or someone from in the past who is an anomaly of the time line. They would have to do something to shoot the time line on a tangent to end at a different place than it will and that line will continue forward until the end of space time (if there is such a thing)
Isn’t this fun?
This is fun…
So then if that occures, the future, which is the cause of this happening would not occure, correct?
The Losties never crash, nothing happens because the island is either destroyed, or whatever this change would be, never caauses 815 to crash. Making the past of the Losties never take place, making this story not actually ever really happen.
Is this what I am to assume from this theory. Just like last time, not being smart, just have to dissect.
really really fun.out
Shortened, as long as the island exists in 2004, the Losties plane will crash. As long as the plane crashes, evrything happens the same. Same people alive, same people die. If anyone, or anything that is signifigant is not there, we have either a paradox, or multiple timelines.
I see no other way for this to work.
Dude comment comment comment, comment by Dude
brondar1, I have not placed words in your mouth for you.
You clearly state in your theory, THERE IS NO TIME LOOP. They are your words not mine.
Secondly, you were attempting to imply that I believed in multiple loops and iterations, which I clearly stated, that I did not.
I am perfectly willing to engage in sensible debate and discussion, providing my words are not being misconstrued.
Thirdly, as for proving a negative, that is an opinion and your perception, not actual fact, which I would not attempt to change.
Personally I like m-theory. 11 dimensions of time connected to other infinite membranes with a moving Island basically a vehicle trying to blow a whole in the next universe before theirs goes through the big crunch. I like to think of time on a flat membrane connected to others. Not on a string I think that is outdated
That is string theory smoke, at least the 11 dimensions part. Its refered to as M-theory, a product of string theory. It is not the exact first idea of string theory, but was branched from it.
yeah Ive read through some info watched documentaries. Sting theory has been around for 50 years or so and m-theory I believe is replacing it. I like M-theory. Time being flat and infinite which means anything and everything that could happen will and has happened to all of us. It goes into the forward thinking of a lot of Physicist today that we are sitting in a multiverse not a Universe and it’s all infinite. There are three levels it goes on and on. Anyway Dabs got a theory up. But I read a lot about time and time dilation it is very interesting, But I am waiting for it to really apply to our show. or not. I dont thimk time as important as people make it especially let’s say religion. And I am of Faith. I got lot’s more on this and am working on it.
Wow! This is a good one.
AES, you are right when you say “if anyone, or anything that is signifigant is not there, we have either a paradox, or multiple timelines.” Only thing is… I don’t think that is far enough. What does “significant” mean? I think if ANYTHING or ANYONE is different or missing then we have a paradox. I argued the same thing in an earlier theory.
We all need to remember that TT is an illogical idea to our minds anyway. I am positive that there will be ALOT of unanswered paradoxes after the Season 6 finale, unless we see multiple timelines. To convince me otherwise, someone explain how this is NOT a paradox.
If Abbadon had not urged Locke to go on a walkabout, Locke wouldn’t have been on 815. If Locke hadn’t been on 815, he wouldn’t have met a young Widmore. If Locke hadn’t met Widmore, Abbadon wouldn’t have told him to go on a walkabout. It’s the opposite of the grandfather paradox, but still just as paradoxical.
The idea that Locke had ALWAYS met Widmore doesn’t solve the problem. If it did, then the instant Locke or anyone else TTed, a fixed, worldwide time loop would be established. Widmore would always meet Locke, spend 30-40 years trying to get him on the island, succeed, Locke would TT, meet Widmore, repeat process for ever. ANY CHANGE is a paradox.
Paradoxes are fine by me, though. That’s the whole beauty of time-travel story lines!!
Room 23 could be the clue to the memory loss.
We already saw others messing people’s minds on Room 23. What we don’t already know if they where trying to erase those memories (what would explain why some people don’t remember the losties on the seventies), or could be some sort of experiment to get back those memories.
Excellent writing, Donald!
I believe we will find Ben always has a plan because he knows the events of the future from the time experiments with DHARMA who were trying to document and prevent the cataclysm or from Widmore and Hawkins who appear to have traveled of the island utilizing the time wheel to go to the future, or from Alpert and gang. Given LOST’s version of time travel, the Losties do not travel back in time until the off island time or 2008 (or on island 2005) therefore the 2004 version of Ben would not have known anything about them because their traveling to the past had not yet happened. Ben cannot have memories of something that did not yet even occur. He will however now gain those memories in 2008 as if they had always occurred with no memory of the original time line (unless he is like Desmond who seems to retain those memories).
For example: Lets say young 1980 Ben was told by Alpert and the hostiles that they had knowledge that a group of individuals from the time of DHARMA (who came originally onto the island from a plane crash) cause a calamity that destroys the Island and the world. Through knowledge of the future they even know exactly how those events play out. Lets even say those individuals even possess a list of names that are important to those events such as Hurley, Jack, Kate, James etc. Young Ben now possessing this comes up with a plan:
Kill everyone from the the DHARMA initiative (except for a few he knows not be a part of the calamity). Keep the island completely cut off from the outside world, hidden from widmore and others, so that the individuals who cause this can never get there. Ta da problem solved, destruction averted.
However as we now see, merely having knowledge of the exact events and the players will not stop time from course correcting for anyone trying to compensate and stop the future. First fate uses Desmond to get them all to the Island in the crash Ben thought he prevented. Even with them all on the island Ben still knows the names and he still knows the events and the island is still hidden, so the key now is to keep them on the Island under complete control and still away from Widmore. (Until of course Locke screws that all up when he does not hit the button)
As season 1-4 play out we see that Fate ultimately plays Ben and actually causes his use of the donkey to bring the players who cause the calamity into the very time, that he was keeping them out of.
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What happened, Happened…
Wow, you guys have been going at it.
Okay, brondar1:
First, I think your definition and my definition of “loop” may be different. I don’t see a loop as them repeating things over and over again but rather that they have gone back and are forced to circle around 1 time ultimately changing their timeline. The show has not indicated in any way that any of the Losties have *any* foreknowledge of the future other than Des and probably Ben and Widmore. Second, “Whatever happened, happened” certainly doesn’t imply that Daniel has foreknowledge of the future, it implies that he *thinks* he knows how time works because he’s a physicist and has all his pet theories.
Now, cappayne:
Sorry, but I can’t accept that “30 years earlier” has anything to do with when the plane crashed. The point of reference has to be the present. So the writers are no doubt intentionally holding back on giving us a clue as to when the plane crash people are. It could be the present or it could be future or past. We just don’t know yet. But I submit for your consideration the beginning of Namasté: As Lapidus and his co-pilot attempt to control the plane, there is a flash of violet light and it suddenly becomes daytime. Hmmm…I think I smell time travel or possibly a red herring! Boy, don’t those red herrings stink!
This still doesnt explain to me how a soul is at rest from this. From a religious standpoint, the person traveling through time, an invincable person, or pretty much anyone on the island during this timeperiod.
Crop: I use the word signifigant, because I think small changes can occure and the universe can still coarse correct, like if the man being killed with the red shoes in “flashes before your eyes”, is warned, he will die another way the next day.
But the signifagance of someone who isnt supposed to die dying, well, theres no fixing that.
brondari, I liked your last comment. It really helped make sense out of all of this. It would definitely explain a lot of what’s going on with the show. This is a great discussion; one of the best.
Willis
I honestly have no clue if i am even close to what is going on, but what I wrote if true would explain a lot. I watched the first two seasons again to see if anyone seemed to have memories of going through a loop before and it does not seem to be the case. Additionally, Ben knows everything he does about the LOSTES not because he met them when he was a child but because of detailed records and files he had on each one. Why would Ben need detailed files on each one if he himself possessed first hand knowledge when he met them in the 70’s.