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A Little “He’s Our You” Discussion

March 25, 2009 by kimberly

Waitasecond.

So the big moment was Sayid shooting Ben?

There’s something not quite right with these last couple of “big moments” for me after watching the shows. Is the main question after “He’s Our You”, will Ben live?

Unfortunately, we see that Sayid shoots Ben in the chest. So, Sayid, the BRILLIANT hit man that he was/is, failed to kill him. (Even though numerous times throughout the epi we’re being told that’s what he does best…) Kind of like we saw Sawyer shoot the marshall in the chest rather than the head, so therefore it didn’t kill him…and following this foreshadowed event…Ben will still be alive, and yes, we’ll probably see Juliet help the little guy out. And for those of us who have debated changing the future by changing the past…this argument is like a Chinese game of ping pong. Wonderful fodder…I think it could keep going even after Lost has aired it’s last episode. Did Ben not die because he lives past 1977, as we’ve seen him alive in 2007? Or did Ben not die because it “wasn’t supposed to happen?” Or does Ben die and Highbrow buys me a beer?

Because seriously, this is what we could debate for the next week, at least.

There are some things that seem “settled”… I am under the assumption that little Ben sent the flaming van into the house in order to free up Sayid. We can pretty much agree (right, Highbrow – we agree?) that Ilana was hired by Ben to get Sayid onto 316. And somehow Kate’s reason of doing who-knows-what to Aaron was to come back for Sawyer?…See this is where I start to get a little uneasy.

There are a few more things left open that could be the very things that need more attention than little Ben getting shot.

Amy is concerned about having a Hostile in the village because “the children” could be in danger. So the Others…they have their abducting children thing going in 1977. (Hello…AES????)

Sayid lies to Jin about how he got out. (The relationships between the Losties are unraveling right before our eyes…)

During the old truth serum interrogation, Sayid gives quite a bit of information to Horace and Radzinsky. How can we ignore the implications of that and how that is going to affect what’s coming next? (Which seriously, just has to be The Incident.)

One other thing now. Something else that has been bugging me since last week, and dear Dabsi reminded me in her great Something Did Change post…

In “Namaste” we see Frank and Sun go into the “Building” with Christian. (I’m just calling it that for now since we could even argue about that.)

But if we argue about that, then we fail to discuss the implications of what happened right before Christian appeared to Sun in whatever time (or timeline! 😉 ) he is in…the whispers and what appeared to be Smokey. That wasn’t just to add tension for Sun and Frank, there’s more to it and that’s the of kind stuff I want to hear about on here…

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kimberly

I really am from Portland.

50 thoughts on “A Little “He’s Our You” Discussion”

  1. Good discussion points there Kim.
    But i have to disagree i think Ben getting shot is definately the most important part of the episode by a long way.
    If you remember when Ben talked to Sayid in Domingo he said something along the lines of ‘youre a killer its in your nature’, it was said in a way that he was so sure of this. The reason he was so sure about this is because he remembers Sayid from when he was a kid shooting him.

    This has big implications, ive never been shot but assume it can change someones outlook and behaviour, so it is arguable in a crazy mind bending way, that Sayid had a big hand in creating the Ben that we now know. Because of this shooting Ben probably became more ruthless. also little things like him being impressed with Sayid taking down Jin could have inspired him to be more like that. The point Sayids actions whether successful or not had a big impact on little Ben. We also see how evil his dad is to him, so maybe more reason as to why Ben is how he is.

    The thing i cant get my head around is Sayid shot little Ben because of the actions of present day Ben, so its a real chicken and egg kind of thing. My head is starting to hurt.

  2. Ben pulled the old…”make him think it was his idea”. Remember when John tells Sawter that the erason he doesnt just go tell his other self about everything is because, he needed it.
    The problems, learning everything the way he did, the pain and suffering…these are the things that make a [erson what they are. Mold peolpe into ruthlessness, or hatred, or love.
    Ben needs to be shot, he would be a shell of himself if he isnt. Anyone who has suffered through tragedy and lives to fight abother day knows, if it doesnt kill you…

    John needs this island pain. This, I guess, was his walkabout. Ben needs the pain and suffering to be who he is, and he knows Sayid NEEDS to be responsible.
    Thats why in the scene where Ben told hi he is done, to go live his life, he wasnt setting Sayid free, no, no.
    He was making sure that Sayid did this. Not only did this, but made the choices on his own.
    Sayid may need this to be the man he eventully becaomes. How much time does Sayid have leaft, what or who can he turn to now?

  3. Whether Ben’s dead or not is irrelevant to changing the future since Faraday told Desmond that he was unique in being able to do that. The future will just correct itself.

    I think it’s awful that Juliette hasn’t already taken pity on poor little Ben. Ben’s pretty jaded, and had Dharma’s people stepped up and protected him from his father and showed the kid a little love maybe he wouldn’t have been such a …

    Sayid.

    Maybe he sees himself in young Ben and feels the same should have been done to himself as well.

    I don’t think they were taking kids then, Amy was just worried ‘the others’ would do something crazy like a purge or something that would kill all their kids. I think here scene here shoots to hell the theory she’s mega-leader person. (Too bad he didn’t shoot any of the women. There ain’t one who’s interesting or very useful. They’re just pretty pass-a-rounds for the men to fight over.)

    Also, why are there so few Dharma people? They’re building this station & that station but only a couple meet to decide what to do with Sayid … and don’t they have some executive office somewhere. They can make crazy decisions like killing island natives (who look nothing alike or have similar accents if they think Sayid is one) without checking in with someone higher in the executive ladder than Horace the mathematician?

    Hello … writers …

  5. If our bet hinges on weather or not Ben lives then I like my chances here. I’m sure Ben will live. I’m also loving how that supports the “whatever happened, happened” theory that I and Daniel Faraday have. We collaborated on that one… really, we did.

    This was a really well written and produced episode… lots of good drama but unfortunately, not a whole lot in the way of reveals. Sayid shot Ben at the end and that was awesome but… raise your hand if you didn’t see it coming.

    Yes, Ben is responsible for the flaming DHARMA bus… I don’t think he did it but I think he arranged it. He told Richard (because yeah, they’ve been talking for years already) that the DI was holding one of the Hostiles. Richard probably knows it isn’t a Hostile they’re holding but he needs to get that person out anyway before he screws things up for them. I had theorized incorrectly that Ben was onto Sayid and he knew he wasn’t a Hostile. Ben was fooled, but Richard wasn’t. The Hostiles will be gunning for Sayid now. Ben is going to have to come to know this because why else would he still want to be one of them after they shot him in the chest? So I still think that AES was spot on when he predicted that Sayid is not long for this world. Good riddance, I say.

    Unfortunately Kimberly, I do not believe that Illana is working for Ben. I believe she’s working for Widmore. At this point I think that in order for Widmore to still be any kind of player in this game he needs to have someone on the island somewhere and I think that’s Illana. We can narrow it down to either Ben or Widmore only I think (unless that Italian guy really does have the resources to track Sayid down… I doubt it though)…

    Ummm, what else? Oh, Lazlo Holyfield (AKA Roger Workman) turns out to be more than just a neglectful father. He’s downright abusive! How the heck did nobody in the DI not jump on that? How does someone get away with something like that in such a small community? Stupid hippies…

    Oh, the truth serum, I’m pretty sure, was LSD. Those DHARMA guys know how to party!

  6. kimberly, the significance of Sayid shooting ‘young’ Ben was carefully manipulated by older Ben, down to the ‘letter’! The question is, why?

    Could it be, that Ben wanted or even needed Sayid to do this? Could it be that this was Ben’s one true sacrifice by attempting to make things right again for himself and ‘the island’? Or, was it all to ultimately bring about some form of change?

    These are the questions we should be asking ourselves!

    By Sayid shooting ‘young’ Ben, has he opened up a door, that wouldn’t be opened otherwise? The burning question is, which door has he opened? Door #1, #2, or #3.

    AES, said it best. Ben had it all set-up when he visited Sayid. All of his words were carefully planned and spoken, to exact the right thoughts and emotions in Sayid. Playing on his deepest fears and emotions of, ‘am I really a cold blooded killer at heart’?

    Whatever Ben’s intentions were, it worked! Sayid carried out his actions, based upon Ben’s careful manipulation of him.

  8. I don’t think it was Ben who hired Illana to find and capture Sayid. The look that Ben gave Sayid on 316 was enough to say ” i wasn’t expecting you to be here”.

    Therefore i believe it was either Widmore or it really was the Spanish blokes family who ordered the capture. The only argument i have against the spanish blokes family is why would they take him to Guam? Im leaning towards Widmore.

    Again this episdoe didn’t seem to reveal much of the major questions from previous series. Im starting to wonder if they will explain the numbers, smokie etc or will they not tell us to have a longer lasting legacy?

  10. yes i enjoyed this epidode, the story telling and drama were excellent…and put it into direct contrast with Namaste. namaste had little drama but revealed a few cool things (ethan, radzinsky, ben… etc.) but it didnt have that heart and soul that this episode bled.

    i dont think smokie will be explained till the middle to end of season 6, but the numbers might be explained soon (if not then not at all).

    the most painful thing is knowing that there are gonna soo many episodes of people/things they have dropped for now. desmond/penny, rose/bernard, faraday, 316 and locke, sun/frank, not to mention widmore, richard, jacob and revelations. are 25 or so episodes enough to find out everything? probably not. some things will be left a mystery im afraid.

  11. Okay Highbrow, I thought about the Widmore thing, too…but…

    If it was Widmore who hired Ilana, then doesn’t this in a way imply that Ben wasn’t pursuing getting Sayid on the plane? And if Sayid doesn’t get on the plane, then Sayid doesn’t make it back to the island to do the things that he was “supposed” to do or in fact, already done? And beside that, to me it felt all too much like the pressure that was being put on Kate about Aaron, and Ben was behind that. In that situation, we were looking for all sorts of roundabout ways that it wasn’t Ben, that would have made it complicated and potentially brilliant, but in the end, it was simply Ben. If it is Widmore behind Ilana, then it starts to feel like potentially complicated and possibly brilliant, but I think it’s simply Ben getting to Sayid, once again.

  12. i think it might be widmore, in fact, widmore might be on the island now, and might be the actual leader of the others (till ben grows up and ousts him). widmore might need sayid on the island, for some heretofore unknown reason. sayid runs into the jungle, maybe to the others…

  13. Widmore is probably on the island right now… right now being the late 1970s.

    It’s up in the air I guess… Yes, Ben did try to work his benipulating magic on Sayid but in the end that isn’t what got Sayid on the plane. Ben and Widmore are definitely rivals here but they both have one goal in common. Before either of them can participate in any kind of war over the island (or whatever) they have to set up the board first.

    I was excited to hear references to Ann Arbor… seems like we might soon be getting some information about the DeGroots and the others who are really being the DHARMA Initiative. I’m also syched to be sitting 20 miles or so away from the DHARMA Initiative’s Mainland Headquarters!

  16. Dabs, asking the “why” once again was something that almost kept me awake last night, after I posted this.

    So, this episode brings the “whatever happened, happened” line once again to front and center.

    AES, you have made a great connection between Locke and Ben – even correlating the “I needed that pain” stuff that ultimately motivates and shapes a person. (Much like we will be seeing with Jack, too, I’m sure.)

    But the “Why” is a bit of what bothers me about Ben knowing all that happened. In this episode we see a few key things that Ben would know as a child moving into the future of 2004 and on, but when it comes to getting shot, that especially is interesting to me.

    I get what AES is pointing out, but I feel like there’s more (and either I am missing the obvious or there’s something almost really big revealed…)

    Did Ben truly KNOW that with the Losties on 316 that some of them would flash to the past? And in getting them to the past, they would make the choices that had already been made in the past? A prime one being Sayid shooting Ben? Because there’s something slightly off about this to me, if Ben knows this. We have to be coming to the series of events leading to the incident, and if that is so, then what is Ben so concerned with? In his past, he kills off Dharma and becomes the leader of the Others until these same people come once again to the island and start a series of events that got Ben off island. So they are on island again, but this time Ben isn’t in their timeline. He’s in the future. What is he trying to accomplish? When is he trying to get to?

    One more thing…because I really need to get some coffee before my head explodes…

    If we do see Sayid die in 1977, then I need to hear how that is supposed to support the infallibility of “whatever happened, happened.”

  19. If Ben knows that some things happen in the past (ala 1974-1977) then he has to know that there is a means to get the Losties to the past. Because in 2004, they were experiencing it for their first time. So if Ben knows that it was Sayid that shot him in 1977, then he knows that they do end up getting back. (But he’s not going to leave it to Widmore to arrange for Sayid getting there, don’t you think?)

    If all we do is focus on Ben though, where does that leave all of Hawking’s statements of what certain doom seems to be coming?

    And where does it leave Desmond? Desmond still has work to do.

    And what journey does Sun have ahead of her? And what are we supposed to think the reason being for her not flashing to 1977? Is it a direct correlation to Ji-Yeon or is it because her purpose is tied into the upcoming incident?

    Widmore anyone? Where does this leave Widmore? And when? For what purpose? Sure, it’s quite possible he’s with the Others during this very time period that the Losties are in; and Ben could just oust him if we assume that everything that has happened, will simply happen as it happened. 😉

    Perhaps Sayid escapes and makes his way to be found by the Others, and in being found encounters Widmore, and given that all Sayid has heard about Widmore has come from Ben, then Sayid actually has the main hand in helping young Ben oust Widmore. Possible? Yep.

  20. Okay, post 316 Sayid, sure. Sayid who has already lived through his own 1977 once before, right? That’s what you are saying? That’s how it all can work out and still be one, non-past-changing timeline?

  21. How freaky would that be if Ilana gets sent back to 77′ with Sun, Frank, Ben, Locke etc that she gets to meet her employer when he’s in his 20’s.

    .

  22. Ben may realize that his part is to get them back to the island. He has faith that the island will take care of the rest. Hawking told him what needs to happen to get them all back to the island so he does that part. Once the Foundies are back within the islands “sphere of influence” it takes over and transports them to where they need to go.

  24. Say back in Tikrit that chicken had decided to fight back and had killed Child Sayid, then we would have a problem. The adult Sayid on the island in 1977 has already done all of the stuff that we know of… umm, by that I mean we haven’t seen the consequences of any Sayid-action that we haven’t seen… whoa, dizzy. So of the Losties in the past (Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Juliet, Hurley, Sayid) can die without consequence to the timeline at any point.

    That is, unless you believe that Ben is saved by Jack or Juliet. In which case we’ve already seen the consequence of that… Ben lives. Therefore one of them (whichever one saved him, probably Juliet) must live long enough to perform that action. After that though, they’re fair game.

  34. I think it’s kind of humorous how the tension level is rising…we’re stuck, oops, I mean they are stuck without knowing what is coming next and all they can do is theorize and try to make sense given the information that they do have from what they’ve seen and experienced.

    Okay, anyway…

    I know that Pierre Chang said it, but why would it be so critical for the Losties/”Foundies” to get back if it all was simply being orchestrated by Ben for the three years in between 2004-2007?

    So Ben was having Sayid killing off all of Widmore’s people…was Ben just waiting for Locke to turn the wheel and to show up in 2007?

    Is Ben equipped with that much knowledge?

    I hate to say it, but based on how he got information out of Locke prior to murdering him, and based on his interactions with Hawking, I think Ben was making decisions without ALL knowledge.

  35. Waycurious – so you say that the “He’s Our You” parallel is between Sayid and Ben, huh?

    You should explain this some more! I think it’s interesting, but I don’t want to take it how you didn’t mean it. Hope you add more.

  36. Highbrow, I think you should draw a diagram of your timelines and attach them to your comments. I honestly think it might help for those ‘whoa, dizzy’ moments! 😉

  37. I’ve considered doing that before and decided not to. Now, faced with a request and another 45 minutes at work with nothing to do, I’m going to fire up power point and get right to work on that!

  39. And by the way, from my own short-lived attempts at drawing lines on paper, I can’t help but have to draw MULTIPLE LINES in order to account for everything! 🙂

  40. I’ll be drawing multiple lines. But only one of them will be THE timeline. The others will simply show the sequence of events in relation to each character.

    Don’t worry. I’m color coding.

  41. Ok… when Sayid asks Sawyer who this guy is they are taking him to… I think Sawyer says “He’s our you” implying, he’s our resident psychopath who will do ANYTHING to get the truth out of people. I don’t know if he’s a torturer per-say but being tied to a tree and forced to take acid ain’t exactly a fun time. Not to “out” myself, but if that WAS LSD, there is no way in hell Sayid would be in happy happy land while being tied to a tree. He would be completely loosing his shit, and quite possibly just crying like a baby thinking about how messed up his life is. Oh well, it was a really weak spot in the episode and series as far as I’m concerned, but the writers are probably just playing off of their audiences perceived knowledge of things.

    Overall I was disappointed in the episode… nothing happens forever and then in the last minute Sayid “kills” Jin and Ben… “or does he?” I donno, it just seems like an obvious and not very interesting “cliff-hanger” ending and the entire episode was wasted on building up to it instead of having anything really meaningful to say or do. It reminds me of the “spider-bite” episode as far as that goes… but of course, unlike the spider-bite episode, at least we will get to know what really happened to the supposedly “dead” people. Remember, there are TWO trained doctors on the island who have the advantage of having lived 20 years in the future and seen all of those advancements in medicine that even the best trained doctor in 1977 wouldn’t have.

    I was really hoping that it would be Roger Linus who jumped out of the van and Sayid killed him. Anyway.

  43. I don’t think Sayid killed Jin. He just made it more complicated by lying to Jin (one of his only friends), knocking him out, stealing his gun and shooting Ben. But, maybe that’s boring? 😉 Just kidding. We all have our preferences for storylines…

  45. I do agree that we could see it coming that Sayid was going to go after Ben. I think the thing that bothers me though is some of the stuff I mentioned in my original post.

    I DO happen to think that there is an issue with the Others and children that Amy clued us into. I don’t think it was just about the kids being ‘safe’ – they are worried about their safety from the predators that are the Others when it comes to kids. And we obviously know that Ethan becomes an Other so the irony was not missed.

  46. Sure Jack meant the torturer, but I think the title was to draw the parallel in Ben/Sayid youths and their ruthlessness … their psyches. He (Ben) is You (Sayid). For neither is killing a choice (ex. Ben kills Locke & seems genuinely going to miss him).

    That example is why I don’t think Ben knows everything. I believe he really thought he couldn’t get back to the island, just like Widmore thinks – until he heard what Alpert told Locke.

    And I still think Amy was just worrying the Other’s retaliation could hurt the children, too (like a purge), not that they took ’em.

  47. Waycurious – interesting stuff and along the lines of a couple thoughts I had, too.

    I thought it was so important to see the flashback from Sayid’s childhood where he killed the chicken to help (presumably) his older brother/friend. There’s always a justification that the killing Sayid does serves a greater purpose – and actually helps or protects people. (Truly the epitome of a soldier, no?)

    Ben’s purge of Dharma obviously served a purpose – but we have yet to fully see/understand the ‘what’ or ‘why’ of that purpose. Was it to protect the island as we’ve so often heard? Or was it his act that earned him leadership, moving up the ranks as an Other? Was it to protect someone or something else?

    The place where this whole parallel Ben-Sayid thing goes awry is when it comes to the Freighter, Locke (debatable, yes) and his response to Jack on 316. His ‘who cares’ line is pretty harsh, no?

    Interesting stuff to mull over, and definitely one more reason that it’s all just so good right now.

  48. those are some good thoughts on Sayid, Kimberly. Saeed kills for a purpose as it appears such as protecting his friends. even though he is usually manipulated into doing so, he has that character that would do what it takes to protect those around him.

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