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What if? What if NO ONE helped Ben ever?

As we can see on last episode, Ben’s adult charactersistics was formed due to kate’s and sawyer’s decision on giving him to Richard and the others. Had they not done that, he would have not become the ben we know (aparently). So, the question remains, WHAT IF THEY HAD NOT DECIDED TO DELIVER TO THEM? What if, they all had decided to kill him by shooting him again in the head, or not save him? Well, let’s supose the universe/island/fate would not let Ben die, by any means necesary, well, if so, aparently, if not delivered to Richard, Ben wouldn’t have become the adult ben from the future (the not inocent, villan, all knowing, all umpredictable Ben).

Thoughts?

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46 thoughts on “What if? What if NO ONE helped Ben ever?

  1. And what do you mean that I’m gonna get a lot of “they did save him” answers? Do you mean what Miles means? That it all had already happened? That they CANNOT DECIDED not to save Ben life? Is there no CHOICE at all? Is something gonna deliver Ben (and at the same time save his life) to Richard so that he can somehow “trasform” him into the Ben we know in the future?

  2. Mamey, you hit on a very key word! CHOICE, or Free Will. This is what saved young Ben!

    The ‘losties’ chose to save him, but please accept the wise words of AES. You know what you will hear from some members. I hope you don’t though! Stick to your guns!

    Nice observations!

  3. No, just that they did. I dont think that will change. They delivered him, and that is what people are going to tell you.
    They will say a ‘what if’ means nothing.
    I actually like the question, and use it, to expand into other questions of events that have not occured in the timepriod we are watching right now. Like the incident, or the purge.
    Its a good question. Just that it just so happens that they did deliver him, thats all.

  4. Yes thanx. Cuz the producers sure “dodged the bullet” on Hurley’s argument that in the year 2004, when Sayid was torturing Ben, he (Ben) did not remmember being shot by Sayid in the year 1977. But as we have seen from the show, the solution to this interrogant comes as what happened to Desmond (he got a memory back after it happened in his past). Therefore, it would seem that Ben from the future will only remember being shot by Sayid, or even better, he will START to remmember by the time it ocurred in 1977 post-30 years from there (same as desmond’s memory).

    But, as I was saying, the producers sure dodged the bullet by leting the Losties save Ben’s life by delivering him to the Others, therby leting what Richard said about him not going to remmember anything from that point on to take place. So, in conclution, the problem that Hurley brought up was “solved” by the “memory clean up” that Ben will have, therefore, futre Ben will still not remmember being shot by Sayid (but he was).

  5. Whatever they choose to do is what happened.. They don’t know the choices they made in the past so how are they to know what changes things… Jack thought he was doing something to change it by not saving him.. But that what he had always done.. That’s what he gets for being an asshole

  6. Following that train of thought, it ocurred to me that shots tend to leave scars, and eventhought Ben would seem not to remmember anything from what I was pointing out, HE SHOULD HAVE THE SCAR from the shot. So, would it apear instantly in future Ben? That would be weird, would it?

  7. Mamey, I posed the same thing in another post, but perhaps the miraculous cure of ‘the others’, leaves him without a scar.

    henrygale 108, I guess that might be true, if Jack were actually present the first time around to make that same decision. How can you be so sure that is what happened, though?

    Just a thought!

  8. how do we know he doesn’t have a scar? Have we had a chance to see it? No.. But it should be big cuz it looks like Juliet gutted him up pretty bad

  9. So AES, do you say that the very first time that he “met” Sayid on season 1, he actually thought “well isn’t it the guy who shot me back in 1977, how weird is this?” And what about the scar I mentioned before?

  10. No no, Ill give him that. It runs with the theme of this particular episode.
    Jack not saving Ben, was the straw that broke the camels back…He was just a boy.
    I could hear Christian in a flashback telling Jack…”You’ll never be a great man.”
    I think we are still setting up for the change to occur.
    It needs to be more…unexpected.

  11. Well, yes, infact we haven’t had the chance to see it. The importance here is the facts. Do you believe that if we had had the chance to “inspect” Ben’s body, BEFORE the Losties had traveled back in time, it would still be there? Ben would tell you that it was a shot from earlier in his life?

  12. I cannot recall Bens chest features at the moment, so it wouldnt be fair to argue with that.
    But, no I dont think Ben thought that. I think long before he saw Sayid on the island, he planned to make sure he got on that plane. He planned to make sure he went back to 1977, where he knew he would be shot, LIVE, and be the man we know today…the man with all the knowledge of these losties, and their fate in the past timeperiod that he has already lived out.

  13. My thinking of why they had been there before goes all the way back to Adam and eve… And the black and white backgammon stones they had on em

  14. Jack said the bodies had been there 30 or 40 years… Which puts us in the 70’s… Where rose and bernanrd had not Been seen but they are there…I think they will die and be laid to rest in the cave and the stones will be placed with them… Black and white

  15. Great thoughts on Ben & Sayid, AES!

    I certainly can’t argue with your line of thinking henrygale 108, in terms of Adam & Eve, and Rose & Bernard. Some good thoughts to mull over!

  16. They had always been there in the 70’s to make those choices.. But they are just doing everything in their presnt time out of sync… The island is moving like normal but the losties are out of sync… Which is why sun Locke etc didn’t go back… They were never in the 70’s.. Ever…. But that’s just what I think

  17. Ok. So Everything we ahve seen so far, about young Ben, has happened the way it did before.
    Stay with me, I am for ‘pro change’, I just dont think this is it…exactly.
    The story of Ben arriving, meeting Annie, meeting Richard, Meeting Sayid, Being shot by Sayid, and being taken to the others has happened before. It is not different, and here is why.
    Ben needed to meet and be shot by Sayid. He needed to not be saved by Jack. He needed to be cradeled by Juliet. He needed to be taken by Kate to the others. He needed Sayer to help her.
    All of these things play in to making Ben what he is. But as an adult, is on an island without any of them…so he gets them. He knows 815 crashes on that date, because he is most likely told as a child, by one of them, or Juliet…someone from the future.
    He knows all of these people are on the flight, because he has met them in his past, their future.
    He knows all of this will occur…but how. He has to make it happen. He is fighting, manipulating, lying, in 2004, to ensure all of the events of the past occur, so that he will continue to exist. He may not view it exactly that way, but he knows those are the people that helped him, for better or worse, along the way.

  18. Since it seems this is getting better and better, and that AES is posting somthing else somwhere else, i’ll put another scenario I thought regarding this time theory thing that I saw posted on the “questions” by AES himself:

    It reffers to the Dharma booth video. I’lll get to the point: Chang has new information FROM THE FUTURE. He was told by a very trustfull source (the Losties that know the purge will ocurr, aparently) that the DI was going to come to an end, they will die, no matter what they do.
    The problem comes here: what if Chang decides to run for his life? He goes on the next submarine, since he has new information regarding his future, and he stays OFF THE ISLAND for as much as he likes, he could even return after the purge, or not.

    Then, someone would reply: “well, then Chang was never killed in the first place”. Well, what if that information was told to Horace? And he too went with Chang off the island, and saved his life aparently?
    We know for sure that Horace DIES, he have seen his courpse. What would happen to Horace or Chang after the purge?

    Thoughts?

  19. Exelent AES, perfect aproach! That is the way it should be, I think. Eventhough I do not think that Ben had to “make sure” all of that happens, it will happen cuz id happened.

    Read my other qwuestion regarding ADITION OF INFO FROM THE FUTURE.

  20. Some people might say that something would happen that somehow wouldn’t allow either one of them to leave and they would still die…. but I’m not so sure… what I wonder is if they go off of the island do the rules of course correcting still apply to what was supposed happened on the island. The island seems to run in its own time bubble and all so could they escape death by leaving the island? I think so, but could they ever return, or if they did would they die soon after returning?

  21. Thanks Dabsi!
    That is a great question Mamey.
    What if instead they ransack the hostiles before they can pull off the purge?

    What do you mean I am posting somewhere else?

    Regardless, That is the type of thing I wonder. But I think that they cannot just do so by themselves.
    I think that the miracle, or change that will occur, will be caused by either Lock, or Desmond, or a combination of both. They are the true difference makers here I think.
    I believe the no change from a scientific standpoint. It makes sense. But what is Locke at this point? What is Desmond capable of…especially if Penny dies, will his concience start jumping again? Could he control it?
    I think those two are the gamebreakers here.
    The man who is beyond time, and the man who lives to make miracles, and save the island.

  22. Nice NMB! You just made me realize a new theory regarding Charlotte!

    Mabye she was one of the peaplo who was supposed to die on the purge, but was informed of future events, and escaped the island (as we know she did), therefore if she returned, she would die! (Faraday’s words, not mine) Then maybe, had she not returned, she would have lived on off the island. But to be sincere, I do not like this stream of thoughts….

  23. Good one AES.

    I refered to you posting somewhere else in this forum, in another thread or discussion. But you were just writing a very long post (nice).

  24. To end up my participation for today (I have to sleep, too much to study tomorrow), my general idea here is, AES, that what is the diference of having lived a past (for example living the purge with no intervention of the time travelers), and having to live it with information from the future? What would be the point of knowing the future at all? For Desmond it was useful, as it served to prolonge Charlie’s death to save the O6 and get them off the island! That served of something, yes, Charlie’s death was inevitable, but he did change things in between!

  25. Oh yes, I sometimes catch myself drifting into other thoughts, and have to edit before I post or it doesnt make any sense.
    I try to stay on task…my mind doesnt let me just think one thing at a time sometimes. Soory for the wait. I wont leave you high and dry…

  26. Your last comment is my belief of the show. Why?
    Why bother with all this, just to show us nothing will change?
    Why all the references? Why the discussion between Miles and Hurley?
    I know it was poking fun at theorists, but sooo much of the stakes at this point, have been built around change. I find it impossible to believe, that everything will occur the same.

  27. Nicely done, and good luck studying. Dont know what it is, but its very easy to relate Lost to anything and get off track…
    Good discussion and thoughts…now go…”you have work to do”..lol

  28. Me too. So it all has to be for a reason. Or maybe they are rwally just “showing us” how it all ended up in the past (but unknown future for the Losties, as well said by Miles), obviously to explain and give answers of all Lost plot.

    My last thought on how thing will turn out, and the fact that I also think that they will not “be the same” (how was it the first time?) is that maybe the point of all this is that CHANGE can only be done to the FUTURE, meaming the year 2007 and beyond, between 1977 and 2007, things have already happened for the world of the Losties (but not for them in first person). So, in conclution, maybe the whole point here is about changing the future, and showing us the past on the island to answer question, but that is unchangable.

  29. Nice Walt line AES, yes I have to go now. I study civil engineering (specialiced on industries). Good luck to you too, and yes, nice thoughts, maybe we can discuse later on the week, I we ran again into each other here. Hope the tread (this one) keeps runing as it is, I’ll read to catch on, and we’ll hit it on again!

  30. like I’ve posted before… I think change will eventually happen….I think the losties were shown the future of the island first for a reason… So that when they got to the past they would already know what happened… Change won’t be easy but it will happen… Or maybe the past didn’t happen like it suppsedly happened…maybe the losties caused it and that we will see played out

  31. So…. um… they did save him. 😉

    I kid by wording that the way I did… doesn’t make it less true.

    What if they didn’t? Let’s look at every available option.

    1) Nobody saves him. Ben dies. The past is altered. God help us.

    2) Jack saves him. Ben becomes a nice young man, grows a mustache, works in DHARMAVille cleaning up messes and delivering supplies. The past is altered. God help us.

    3) They bring him to the Others. Richard takes him into the temple, takes his innocence (does that sound wrong to anyone else?) and saves his life. Everything then unfolds exactly the way we knew it would when we were in 2004/05.

    They had three options and from their point of view they could choose whichever one they wanted. The did have free will. Free will is not removed simply because we already know the consequence of their actions. Whatever they choose to do will result in the consequences that we’ve already seen.

  32. hello friends. if ben remembers the losties from his childhood, why would he tell them or have a face of recognition or surprise? that is very not ben-like. he keeps secrets, especially those which give him a leg up

  33. Ben may end up being told about some details about what happened to him. I’m very interested in seeing what Richard and the others fill him in on.
    On the day he wipes out the Dharma there is something in his face. Not regret but some sort of inner conflict. He must know where he comes from. maybe not… I’m developing migranes from this show.

  34. Highbrow

    option 4) Jack saves Ben.
    Ben reconciles with his father who makes a determined effort to change. But Ben does not turn into a nice young man. Sayid’s seeming act of random violence and the near-death experience has left him empty. Robbed of his innocence. Wanting more. Wanting to understand the meaning of it all. No answers available from the Utopia-oriented Dharma people. He goes and meets Richard and plots their demise.

    My point is that free-choice could still exist in this scenario.

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