Closed Loop Paradoxes
This is NOT related to “Time Loops” and is in-fact dependent on the idea of a fixed, immovable time-line. Someone mentioned this awhile back in terms of John Locke’s compass. John Locke gives the compass to Richard in 1954 to prove he is their leader… Richard shows up with the compass during Locke’s childhood. It has not been revealed how or where John’s compass came from, but it must be coming from somewhere, and the only place that seems logical is from Richard… which means that the compass has no origin. Since the compass has no origin it is what i’m calling a closed loop paradox. It is just an item trapped in an endless circle of time.
The second example is Faraday’s rat. The rat doesn’t know the maze. Faraday sends the rat’s mind into the future. Now the rat knows the maze. The rat doesn’t need to be taught the maze because it already knows the maze… thus the knowledge of the maze is a paradox, it has no origin. The rat itself is not a paradox, just the specific knowledge of the maze.
The third example has yet to be shown, but I think it will be eventually. The numbers. We know that the numbers appear on the side of The Swan. We know they make up the “password” for The Swan. We know there is a recording on repeat that attracts the man from Australia as well as Russeau’s team. We also know that Hurley is obsessed with the numbers and he says them over and over to himself when he fells uncomfortable. If Hurley is the origin of the numbers, then the numbers are also in a closed loop, with no actual origin.
These are the only ones I can think of off of the top of my head, but there may be more.
That sounds just like “which one is first, the egg or the hen” But yeah your theory is pretty much like this…
Well it’s even more dramatic than hen or egg… it’s which came first, the egg or the same egg in a different time?
Another example… in Faraday and Desmond’s interactions, Daniel feeds Desmond a number. Desmond tells the number to young Daniel and it makes his machine work. The “magic” number that makes his machine work has no origin. That’s pretty significant if you think about it. A time travel machine that requires the existence of an impossible number to work. Take that to the next step… Desmond messing around with the Swan made the plane crash. The numbers are the key that makes the Swan’s counter measure work… and yet that number is a paradox.
pjdkrunkt, you did an extremely nice job of illustrating the closed loop paradoxes.
I certainly agree that the compass is representative of this, and it would appear the numbers are is well.
I also can’t think of any others right now, but will come back in, if I do.
Nicely written and presented as well.
hi pjdkrunkt,
are you referring to the theory i wrote about the compass, check it out
http://www.theoriesonlost.com/2009/03/a-compass-points-back-to-the-future/
I like your example about the rat.
Oh My! Is this a paradox rant?
IF the numbers turn out to be a paradox… then the ENTIRE show is a paradox. The numbers are related to The Swan and therefore to the crashing of 815. It’s also interesting to note that whatever purpose Faraday is going to serve will also be a paradox since the number that Desmond gave him that made his machine work was a paradox and that moment is what lead him to the island… which is why he carries around a 20 year old notebook.
Yes username, that must have been your topic. What is interesting is that the compass might NOT be a paradox, because we don’t know where John got it, or who currently has it. If for instance, John got the compass at some point in his life after Richard came to visit… brought it to the island… gave it to Richard… Richard shows it to young John but does not give it to him and holds onto it… then the compass would have made one little time travel loop, but it would be an open ended loop. The loop is only closed if John got the compass from Richard and then later on gives it to him to prove who he is.
But the rat’s memory and Faraday’s numbers for his machine are def in a paradox!
This is great, Keep the paradox talk alive, I love it!
The compass is very, very easily explained. It came from a cereal box. Young Richard gets it in his Sugar Bombs and holds onto it because it’s a super awesome army man compass. Later, John Locke shows up with a compass. It’s older than the one Richard has but he still recognizes it. Later he finds John Locke and give him the newer compass. Up to that point he either had two or he had one because he had thrown the older one that John gave him away. Not very complicated. No paradox.
Faradays rat was taught the maze while Desmond was passed out and we the viewers were watching commercials.
I think pjd’s point about Eloise the rat, is that despite Daniel’s original intention to teach Eloise the maze, once she has run the maze in the first place there is no need for Daniel to teach her anything.
Hence the paradox.
RE: the compass
I have trouble following what you wrote but will endeavor to re-read it. In any case I believe any number of explanations could (and may in future episodes) account for its origins. The newer, better Locke may be on a crusade to put things right, including certain niggling details. What bothers me is Richard’s statement to Locke when he gives him first aid that it is Locke who sent him there in the first place. The writers had better not forget this.
RE:
Faraday’s magic numbers. If I re-call correctly, the number is some kind of frequency that Faraday may or may not need at the moment Desmond gives it to him. Regardless, I think Faraday would have calculated them on his own, and so he was just sending himself a shortcut, saving himself a few days work. The purpose of giving Desmond the message was to help him get his younger self’s attention. In oher words there is no real paradox, unless Daniel uses the extra time to do something radically different that will change the course of human history.
Will have to view the episode again to confirm any of this.
RE: Eloise
It occurs to me that Eloise dies right after running the maze precisely because she is caught in a paradox of knowledge she acquired without acquiring it.
Does that make sense?
But here’s the thing about this kind of paradox. If it’s just something we notice then it can very easily be explained. Unless they give us concrete evidence that a paradox happened then we can explain how things happened the way we’ve seen them without having caused a paradox.
Faradays magic numbers. He didn’t come up with them. Someone else did some experiments and came up with that number. Daniel realizes that those are the numbers he needs for his experiement. He gives them to Desmond who gives them to past Daniel. Past Daniel uses them and they work but he never publishes them. No paradox.
Eloise knew the maze but she still needed to be taught the maze by Daniel later. He did that. They just didn’t show it.
I am still wondering how Ms. Hawking knows to go find Desmond in 1994 in the Jewelry store. Two possibilities.
Either someone traveled back in time to tell her all about it and what to tell Desmond (I am betting on Desmond himself)
OR: Richard traveled back in time (as there seems to be a feeling that he comes from the future) to tell Hawking what to do.
OR: Hawking herself has the capability of traveling back in time In Extremis to contact Desmond.
RE: The Numbers
Your third point leaves me a little breathless. The writers (I am told) explained all they are going to about the numbers. They rely on the Lost Experience (and the Sri Lanka video) to explain where the numbers came from. A man called Valenzetti came up with them. Not Hurley.
You mention a man from Australia. Are you talking about Sam Toomis? If so you got a detail wrong. Some time in 1988 the numbers that are being broadcast on a loop from the island somehow get intercepted by Danielle Rousseau’s team in Tahiti, sending them to the island. At the same time two US navy radio men stationned in Australia intercept the same radio broadcast. Those two men are Sam Toomis (whom Hurley later treks to find in the Outback where his widow lives in 2004) and Leonard Simms, who later goes crazy and winds up in Santa Rosa, obsessed with reciting those same numbers.
Hopefully, some later flashback will reveal the back story to those two men in 1988 and precisely what happened in 1988 for that broadcast to get out.
highbrow: as I said, the compass could be from some other source and have just made a little circuit in time just like our friends… although I seriously doubt Sugar Bombs or any other cereal was around when Richard was a boy, or that they would have such a nice French compass in their box. As far as the frequency and the maze goes… we can assume all we want, but the evidence we are given is that the origin of the frequency is Desmond. And you can’t teach someone something twice… even a rat. If you put the rat back in the maze, it won’t just forget that it knows the maze and bumble aimlessly though it, it will just go right to the cheese every time. It’s like when you visit a house (like say your grandparents) you havn’t been to in years but you still know where everything is. The rat didn’t even live long enough to forget the maze.
Andre7: the frequency is a very specific frequency and is the entire key to his experiement. One could spend lifetimes searching for that “key” and never stumble into it… something his own mother may very well have done. Daniel USED Desmond to get the number although perhaps accidentally, and he never had time to publish anything because he was drummed out of Oxford for performing experiments on his students. I would say inventing a time machine is something pretty radical that could EASILY change the course of human history.
I don’t know anything about the “Lost Experience” but that doesn’t sound very fun. It’s also widely known that the producers give fasle clues and false trails alot, so I wouldn’t put stock into clues being cannon until they appear in the show.
I do know the story with the navy guys, I just couldn’t remember the names… my point is that here we have a situation where someone who is obsessed with the Numbers is in direct contact with the people who built the Swan and is living a full decade before the recording is broadcast. That puts him into the possible possition of influencing those events.
Of course, the compass and the numbers could be explained away quite easily with a few seconds of video footage, but Daniels Oxford experiements are in my mind certainly examples of this paradox at work. The frequency number could be explained if we saw that Daniel ALREADY knew that number before Desmond showed up, but I don’t recall seeing that.
To me this is not a mystery. When you have sonic fences, people returning from the dead, Cabins, Walt, Jacob, Islands skipping in time.
Something can’t show up and give LOCKESTER a compass. I dont no. Maybe it is a paradox and all our tv’s will explode.
Hahaha… yeah well my whole point is that if these things ARE paradoxes, then ultimately it means that it’s all impossible. Which means that ultimately it will all have to be “course corrected” .