Desmond & Widmore
I would encourage you to check theories and read Dabs’ post “Ilana’s working for…” to get a background as to where this thought comes from. The comments have completely veered off-topic at this point 🙂 … so just scroll through the first half of them and see that the comment discussion with AES, Dabs and Josh is what inspired this line of thinking. AES also has some posts on the Desmond-Widmore connection which includes “Our Mutual Friend…’Oedipus‘” and an older one, “A Penny for your thoughts.” Those are worth reading to consider some of the different scenarios with the Widmore family tie-in to the island.
Here’s what I propose:
Penny is not dead. Desmond was shot by Ben and Penny’s life was threatened by Ben in front of little Charlie. Desmond has motivation for revenge – motivation to get rid of Benjamin Linus and any continued threat he poses to the safety of those he loves. Widmore, although we saw him as a cold on-island leader, has reason too, to want to protect Penny and seek revenge on Ben. His motivation to go after Ben began long before Ben went after Penny – this newest attack will not surprise him. But it will provide the necessary ingredients for a Desmond & Widmore alliance.
This alliance could come about under two possible scenarios…
… Desmond finds Widmore and gives him a lickin’ for the mess he (Widmore) has gotten Des and Penny into. Widmore (with Benipulation-type skills) adds fuel to Des’ fire for wanting to remove the threat of Ben and says something along the lines of “I know how we can ensure that Benjamin Linus never goes after your son or wife again. Help me to find him.” Desmond’s ears are perked, no?
… Widmore finds Desmond, “Thank goodness you’re all alive!” Des gives him a lashing…etc. from scenario listed above.
Either way, Widmore can play to Desmond and offer ‘protection’ if Desmond helps him get rid of Ben. Add to it anything else that Widmore would know of Ben’s plans and the people (Des’ friends) that are now on island, in various times…
How does Widmore know that Desmond can help him? Widmore knows by now that Desmond was on island. Is that enough?
Nope. The remaining key ingredients into this mixture of the Desmond-Widmore alliance comes from:
Daniel Faraday and Eloise Hawking.
Here are the connections:
– Faraday worked for Widmore already.
– Faraday knows of and has ‘used’ Desmond’s special abilities in time ‘past.’ Faraday can communicate with Desmond in ways that could affirm and motivate Des even more now that Desmond would be considering going back to the island.
– Hawking knows that Desmond has a connection and purpose with the island. Hawking and Widmore were on-island before, and no matter where their relationship stands now, are willing to use people to get to that island.
So whether or not Widmore has any people on island now to represent his ’cause’ – it doesn’t necessarily matter. Widmore has Daniel, Hawking and Desmond. And Desmond is the variable that Ben might not necessarily have accounted for in his grand scheme.
Wanna throw one more possible scenario in there? (This is really just for fun…)
If, as AES proposed, little Charlie Widmore-Hume is actually old Charles Widmore, and Penny, Des and little Charlie all go to the island…and somehow arrive lets say, in 1927…then perhaps it’s Des and Penny’s skeletons in the cave. 😉 There, that’s for you AES.
Hey there kimberly, this turned out very well, and I can certainly see how either scenario would be plausible.
I can’t help but think, that Ben really ‘stepped in it’, when he attempts to kill Penny. And, we don’t know how badly he has wounded Desmond, either.
Perhaps, even Penny is forced to contact her father, in which case, either way, Daddy Widmore, will rush in to help them/himself!
I agree that although Widmore doesn’t have a lot of on island assistance, he does have Daniel Faraday, and I think Ms. Hawking may offer help to him, if even reluctantly because Penny is his daughter.
Even if she didn’t, he has Desmond, and that’s all he may need to get him back onto ‘the island’.
No matter what, Ben messed with a hot-headed Scotsman, and Desmond will be out for his blood!
This theory will spawn many thoughts! God work!
lol Good work, I must have had God on my mind, from a previous conversation! haha
WOW – Kim you put that together so well!
I have been waiting for it since the other nights convo that you referenced. You put in so many great scenarious and even tied in the Hawking/Faraday connection.
I think you are absolutely right, that Widmore will find his way back to the island through Desmond.
But I don’t see Widmore getting his @ss kicked, he is one of those bas a$$ old men like Clint Eastwood. Plus he def has like 30 hidden bodyguards at all time. I think the “protection for your son and wife” scenario is how it will play out. I love the way you wrote out what he would say, I like pictured him saying that it was perfect, bravo!
I really believe that Des will team up with Wid to get rid of Ben, and then the war is on!
i like the scenarios as well. i just hope that when desmond has that conversation with widmore that it becomes as epic as bens encounter with widmore off island. maybe des will get that glass of scotch after all.
Josh…Yeah, I don’t necessarily think Widmore will get the physical beat down from Des…I think it will be some good writing and subtle yet sly nuances in the directing of the scene that could make it good. Kind of like Locke and Ben in Ben’s office, this last week.
Glad you like it! I hope we do get to see it transpire now that I have imagined it in my head!
Dabs, you reminded me of something somehow.
Penny’s “I’m coming with you…” to Desmond when he said he had to go to LA. That was our foreshadowing that she’s going to the island with him, don’t you think?
I have no Idea what happened, But I am not going anywhere. And am very sad
OT, maybe just clarify what you are talking about and it might help?
Theory? Specific comments?
Obviously it can get confusing sometimes, so the clearer the better for everyone!
Addict!!haha!..Umh I miss DABS
I love how you told everyone not to read our comments, but i think its obvious they will join up look at what happened.
You wanna talk about foreshadowing Kim, Then think about this, Ben (Bad Guy) is on the phone with Widmore (signifying Ben vs Wid) i know they been at war but signifting captains of teams so to speak.
Now Ben SHOT Desmond like he was nothing almost lke he wasnt even important, maybe thats what the Writers want us to think(Its a conspiracy no no JK) anyway Ben shooting DeZ also made me think he WOULDNT be a factor in what was about to happen to Penny.
haha so Ben goes to Kill PENNY(Des & Wid’s connection & responsibility of safe keeping) but he DOESNT & Ben has shown that he is Ruthless about killing, And right when you think Ben is going to shoot Penny(Almost Signifying a battle loss in the war or Game) But nope Dez teams up for the first time with Widmore & saves the Battle, The Day, or W/E you wanna call it.
So by Dez coming out of nowhere shot, saving Penny Foreshadows Dez as the screwball in the Game or War thats about to happen between Ben & Widmore…Dez is very significant to this whole story.
I thought Ben looked like he was almost smiling when Dez through him in the water like he knew something about that Kid Charlie. Maybe he knows it would be very bad to his past or future to kill either of them.
I had theories (In my head) about that kid BiNG Charlie (rockstar??) or Charles Widmore because c’mon, 3 charlies or Charles that are “English” & Dez has so many ties to Charlie.
Like When he had to keep saving him & only Charlie a bunch of times like his “Daddy” & having Charlie See his “mother” first B4 he is born(if theory holds) actually im thinking about it & it wont hold being the Rocker Charlie dont waste ur time ripping it to shreds.
Please read my Oedipus theory…seriously, I know you guys were making the jokes yesterday when I asked you about it…please, after seeing your last comment, you will at least enjoy it, even if you dont agree…
?
hello…
meet me on my shoe post…”wait,,,was that..”…
kimberly, I am pretty sure that one line made by Penny was the ‘hint’ that she will be going to ‘the island’ with Desmond.
I can’t see her leaving little Charlie with anyone, so I am presuming he will be accompanying them!
This should not only make for an interesting story, but gives us an idea, what may occur, once they arrive there.
Perhaps, old Widmore, has been pulling some strings of his own, where they are concerned!
If you tie in your thoughts with AES post about Oedipus, it gives me an idea where things could be headed!
Hey AES – I am assuming that the earlier “meet me at my shoe post” wasn’t for me…
Thanks BTW.
Dabs, you sparked another thought here. If Penny brings little Charlie to the island, this will be the only child we’ve seen come in all of the post-815 births. This is interesting to think of in light of the various thoughts on situations with children on the island; the significance of Aaron and Ji-Yeon left behind; and then factoring these in to ‘what’ the island is and therefore adding more weight to the possibility of Charlie being Charles Widmore.
No, it was directed at “you know who”…he was in rare form last night, comments have most likely been deleted by admin, for good reason…
LOL, I just read that…it seems as if Im talking to myself now…thats good stuff…
Either way,,,back to Lost…
Yes, I very much like the I cannot stress the importance of the children returning…
I am seriously pulling for this idea now…
‘Twas a strange little ordeal…Emzi’s great as I now see what happened with the missing comments.
I’m tired, but will give some more thought to whatever this idea of the significance of if Charlie comes but not the other children.
Is it because of implications where if other children come (Aaron & Ji-Yeon specifically) and lets say 1) the Others get a hold of them 2) they get taken to Smokey=become an Other or even more, part of the island 3)whatever the island is, and whatever Smokey does, could disrupt a natural timeline or something so significant like creating a scenario where the child ceases to exist (and not from ‘death’ so to speak)
…
I am formulating it without enough brainpower. I think I’ll try again tomorrow, but hopefully what I am getting at makes a little sense.
It’s basically merging ideas to Smokey/the Island (purposes) + a natural timeline/course correction/time travels + who & what the Others are + the role of children on the show … need some sleep for this!
i get what your’re saying…makes sense…the island is not in real time persay…therefor people born there…dont technically exsist in real time…disrupting ‘natural order’…am I understanding correctly?
Yes it is along those lines, AES. Since Charlie was conceived and born off-island, he can come back – perhaps even to somewhere along in time where it wouldn’t create a paradox and he could become the Charles Widmore that we know.
I would wonder if Aaron and Ji-Yeon have different implications…
I’m still thinking about this, so if you continue to get my drift, “course correct” my thinking with your input!
Aw, Kim… I was agreeing with you all along… right up until the end there where you started talking about Penny being her fathers mother. The only way that’s going to work is if we also find out that Charles isn’t Penny’s father. Maybe her mom had other stuff going on while Chucky was back on the island. Penny is either Charles Widmore’s daughter or his mother. Not both.
Oh, and I think Kate could take Ilana.
Had to keep you on your toes, HB.
I agree with myself, up until that point, too. I think the Penny/Charles thing is beyond nuts, but like I pointed out over on the Oedipus post, strange things do happen on this show. So to throw it out because it’s absurd is like trying to argue that everything else we have seen up until this point is somehow NOT nuts.
So, I include it as a possibility as to not look TOO smart…there has to be something to debate, right?!? (I’m completely joking if you don’t know that by now.)
And yes, I think Kate could take Ilana too. At least you humor me with that.
(It’s kind of absurd around here lately, so glad you found my little comment to you.)
Yeah, well… I don’t come on here in the evening very often and almost never on the weekend… So every morning I spend time catching up, reading stuff… especially on Monday… When I’m done I don’t remember what post I read things on… makes it hard to respond.
I think Ilana is a bit chubby. The casting for that part is odd because I would have thought they would have been looking for someone more athletic. Like someone with massive shoulders. Or maybe just big arms or super toned abs.
Does Charles know that Desmond has been to the island? I think if he didn’t he was tipped off when Des showed up asking about Daniel and his mom… And I think he has an idea where they are now too thanks to Bens phone call. Desmond is probably headed to the hospital. Charles will probably show up before he’s discharged. Maybe he’ll be all “we need to stop Ben or he’s just going to try this again. And I know exactly how to find him”.
Okay, now that I think about one of your first comments some more…
Your idea that Charles isn’t Penny’s real father is nearly brilliant if you want to consider that could be part of how AES’ theory works. Then Charles and Ben would once more have something parallel, too.
Good call.
I do think that by this point Charles knows Des was on island. I wouldn’t be surprised if it is something that he figured out awhile ago, but even if it is JUST this last interaction with Ben and any of the proposed scenarios above…he now knows.
And I think the alliance is key to what happens next.
Yeah, so either Charles is Pennys dad or he’s her son but not both. The thing is it isn’t really crazy if it’s just one or the other. I think it might be a bit much to throw another relationship twist out there though… it would, however, give Ben and Charles something else in common… each raising a child that doesn’t belong to them…
Or maybe he’s neither.
Could be that he’s neither, he’s simply Desmond and Penny’s son, that I think most likely will go back to the island if Des returns.
And him being a child alone was enough to catch Ben’s attention, and it had nothing to do with the name.
Could be, but I do think that there is something more to it.
And AES’ scenario – along with this addition that perhaps Penny isn’t technically Charles’ child – could make for some very interesting next few events.
I still think that these scenarios will include Daniel and Hawking, though, too.
Now for another random complicated scenario: It could be really interesting to make Penny’s mother Hawking, but Widmore NOT her father.
These writer people like complicated, so I think anything’s fair game.
Maybe Charles isn’t Penny’s father and Charlie isn’t really Penny and Desmond’s kid either. Man, I’m kicking myself for suggesting that maybe Penny was taken from someone and isn’t biologically Widmore’s kid… As everyone knows it is my goal on this site to rain on all of AES’s theories.
I think Charlie is definitely Penny & Des’ kid. We purposely saw her birth for that, right?
Where is AES to hear you indirectly supporting his theory now??? 😉
Now it seems like everyone’s reaching now.
Start a theory on what your saying in these last couple comments cause we are straying away from your original theory kind of.
Maybe the kid fell overboard and they stole another one from someone else..
If Hawking is Penny’s mother, that would somewhat justify why she intercepted Desmond, knowing he was going to propose. She might be keeping tabs on her daughter…
And this also is backed up by some conversation on Dabs’ post where this whole thing about Widmore/Desmond started from….I asked why Hawking was off-island and Dabs suggested giving birth. It would be logical to think that it meant Daniel, but even more interesting to think it might have been Penny.
BiNG, “straying” is how many a good ideas seem to happen for a few of us! 😉
Especially if we start talking about what Kate might do next with her immense strength, right Highbrow? lol
Maybe Daniel and Penny are twins, separated at birth. Daniel went to live with his caregiver and Penny was sent to live with Charles. All to protect them from the evil of their mother, Darth Hawking.
Ok, that last part was a joke… but maybe, just maybe…
Right! As long as we’re talking about Lost I don’t see the problem…
You see, if Desmond continues to refuse to go back to the island they could send Kate to LA. She could pick their boat up and throw them to the island.
There are way too many things about this all adding up. Highbrow, you have distracted me from attempting to tie this all together with some other things about children, purposes and the island. 🙂
If you can just try to leave “Darth” Hawking out of it, I think you have a shot at reconciling some of AES’ theories with some of what we are talking about here…
Widmore + Desmond
The “war”
The incident
Smokey, Richard and the Island
Taking children – them losing their innocence, being changed to ‘Others’
The purpose of the island.
Wanna help me out here? 😉
lol HB, that was funny!
(I just pictured Charlize Theron from “Hancock” for that one…)
Ha, yeah…
There are definitely Star Wars ideas at work here. Twins, separated at birth… for the record, it is now my official belief that Penny and Daniel are twins. Somehow they both find their own way back into the thick of things. Daniel through physics (the force) and Penny by just rebelling against her father.
There’s more I’m sure but I need to go see a user about a problem with encrypted emails…
Kim, Im here…
highbrow…with umbrella in hand..glad I dont need it today though with you clear sky…
bing…I have unusually long typing fingers that help me to ‘reach’…
HAha ok A.E.S well keep ‘Reaching’ then.
But this Info would also make for a great theory & take on is own comment.
BiNG, I think it would make for a good theory, but I like to have a little discussion and work through some things before just posting it. (Especially because on this site only 4 theories are shown on the main page, so I want to be aware of other users space for ideas, too.)
Besides, I like talking it out with some of these characters around here, even if it never gets posted…
As I’ve told AES before, this is my environment for practicing not having to be right all the time in life.
I’ll bet you that there are tons of gems buried deep in the comments of some theories that are dead on accurate, and the few that take the time to have the discussion are the ones that know about them.
I’ve kind of lost my train of thought… it’s been a long day…
I’m going to look ultra-prescient when they reveal that Dan and Pen are twins… I bet the producers will read these comments and they’ll be all “damnit! How did he come up with that!?”…
Long day, huh?…And you didn’t even get to read all the comments that Emz had to delete! 😉 That really would have helped your thoughts! (Ooooh, I think I’m being mean. I’ll stop.)
Sounds like it’s time for a NW microbrew!
I’m telling you, we have some great micros here in the NE! Plus we don’t have to be so close to California… I hope they don’t drag you down with them when they fall into the ocean!
I might stop off on my way home for a drink but I’m planning on going to the gym later and those activities don’t seem to mix too well…
I’m a little pissed that I missed all the good comments… I just got to see AES talking to himself which explained a lot for me.
I have Widmer’s (yes, I’m talking beer, not misspelling Widmore) W’9 in my fridge, and I too have a class at the gym tonight which is the only reason it hasn’t been a self-declared happy hour here at home! It’s a New Belgium style and if you can find it, it’s great!
Yes, it does look like AES is talking to himself, and I haven’t seen what Dabs’ post turned into if the comments were deleted there, too. It was a weeeiiird day.
Hit the deltoid fly and do some overhead presses and your on your way…
I’ll never achieve Kate’s awesome shoulders! Maybe I should stay at home and go for Hurley’s girth instead!
Time to go home… laters!
lol I just had a chance to tune in to what I missed! haha
Thanks highbrow, AES and Kim for keeping me laughing!
It would appear that all comments everywhere have been deleted by the looks of things. Once again, nothing slips past emzi, thankfully. She’s ‘the bomb’.
And, so are all of you!
Its Ok, I talk to myself all the time even if comments are not erased…all good.
I really dont think Dan and Penny are twins, half bro/sis, ala Jack and Claire possibly, but for them to be twins is hard for me to believe…
His hair is too dark, and her goatee is lacking the poper thickness… ;]
On a somewhat unrelated note…I really think Penny is infact Charles daughter, but for some reason, I dont think Dan is actually Hawings son…at least by birth.
This may seem stupid, but I can never understand why all of the people taked about above have accents, and Dan seems as American as apple pie, sorry to get off subject, just wanted to throw that in…
No, not off subject. It’s Lost-related…
Today I was thinking that a “Fun” theory would be all of the “miscast” or misdirected character issues we are supposed to believe…
Daniel’s “American-ness” is one of them.
The fact that they have Michael Emerson playing himself from 20 years and older is another. Especially when they had a “young” Rousseau for “Dead is Dead” …
That would be ‘fun’ and not ‘theories’ though. 😉 Teasing you, AES, teasing…
If Dan were raised in the US then he’d have the appropriate accent, no matter where his parents are from…
I think the reason he always wears his tie is related to this… I bet he’s covering a tattoo… maybe both of the kids were marked before they were separated!
Btw Kim…Im not a character…I really am a giant eyeball with several names of very prominate world history figures rolled into one….and I’ll go out on a limb and say tha highbrow is actually a cartoon, but who knows…
Here is something kind of big….lets not forget, that through all this ‘daughter’ talk, and killing, between Widmore and Ben, neither actually says…”Thats not even your real daughter…”especially Charles.
Which, contradicting my previous statement, could actually mean that Penny is not Charles paternal child.
That little conversation still bothers me, I find it odd that the conversation that they had was almost fully explained without any showing of Widmore finding the island, while Ben tried to kill Penny. It was all explained in the same episode with the scene at the harbor, and the scene with Ben stealing Alex. Plus there is the conversation between Ben and Chuck about taking the baby and not killing Danielle….which leads me to ask…when does Charles’s comment/promise about the island come into play?
Does it have anything to do with the box or Ilana?
Or is it all part of the plan with Desmonds possible return?
Also, why did Ben tell Sun to apologize to Desmond Hume? Does he know she will be leaving the isalnd…or that Des is coming?
I really dont think we will see Sun off island again, at least without Jin, so that leads me to believe, that at some point Des will be returning to the isalnd and shortly after, coming into contact with Sun…maybe he has a long journey in front of him as well…
I think he said that to Sun because he knew that in five minutes he might be dead and he just wanted to tell someone… or maybe he was hoping the smoke monster would here it and he was kissing up…
What gets me is the a lot of people seem not to realize what he wants to say he’s sorry for…
nice call on the tie highbrow…and I stretch for ideas, lol
Kim…I swear, keep teasing, and I’ll summon the ‘smoke’ monster, and not the one that erases memories, but the one that causes things here to be erased…is that what you want?
;]
I meant on the tie thing, lol
I have a really hard time typing with these stubby little cartoon character fingers…
What is he sorry for?
Making Desmonds life miserable perhaps?
Yeah, the tie part was a joke… unless it turns out to be correct in which case, I meant it all along…
How about shooting him?
well aware highbrow, Seriously though, what is he sorry for?
simoposting…sorry….
Ahhhhh, thaht seems kind of…well, correct…and sensible….so probably not correct on this show…
honestly though, I do not practice what I used to preach, that on Lost, the easy answers are sometimes often the most obvious and correct ones…
You two…geez, I can’t get anything done today!
First: AES. You are a character, in one way or another, like it or not. 🙂 As for Highbrow, well, that’s just a given.
Second: I agree that Ben might have been almost sorry for a) shooting Desmond b) waving a gun at Penny c) especially in front of their child.
Third: AES, yes, it is almost maddening the way the writers word things and leave very important words out. The unexplained parts of the conversations between Widmore and Ben can (in my mind) be traced to this:
Because the Losties ended up in the past, which is a time frame that Charles Widmore would be familiar with, he has a foreknowledge of events, that although were in the past, they are still the future, so he has a sense of what is to come. And it is quite possible that Ben has some similar knowledge, albeit from very different sources.
Like if Ilana’s big box (not big chubby arms, Highbrow) does in fact come from Ben, then it makes me think that he knows there is something coming…
And…everyone is gone, now that I am back. Lovely, now I am the one talking to myself! 🙂
How does it feel Kim, how does it feel, lol?
Thats a good point by the way…
I assume that Ben has all this knowledge of the Losties, memory erased or not, but you are correct, Widmore was there for the whole thing…well most of it…
Makes me wonder if Chazz got the boot before the purge, and if so, who ordered it…lol…I have another very twisted theory on that coming…so please, if someone can stop the ball before it really gets rolling, please try, it may stop another rainstorm from highbrow on one of my posts.
I’m thinking it’s post-purge…
But I don’t keep track of dates very well on this show, except for this season when they have been telling us the years. 😉
Back tracking a bit, but Dan also went back to the states after leaving that “poor girl” in her time-traveling state in her bed back at Oxford Univ. Anyone have an idea why he’d go back there? Or was that a cover for a trip to the island?
He also had a lot of knowledge about American bombs … but I guess that could be because he’s a physics prof.
BTW, I love this theory … I’m with highbrow though, that Penny is either Chuck’s daughter or his mother, but not both. IMO. Would love the twist if she really isn’t his daughter at all … 🙂
He very well could have returned to see his ‘mother’ Eloise Hawking. She most likely was the only person able to help him find the island…and he was most likely manipulated into doing so by Widmore…hence the freighter crew and mercinaries.
aha … so maybe Eloise Hawking and Widmore are in leagues still? After all, they are both others off the island, and were both in high positions. It is interesting that Faraday works for Widmore twice in having his research funded by him, and also coming via the helicopter/freighter. And Eloise is his mother, so there must be more to the Chuck/Ellie/Faraday/Penny connection.
I’m pretty sure Charles was exiled after the purge based on the fact that he was shipped off on the DHARMA submarine… It’s possible though that the decision to exile him was made before the purge. Maybe they put him on the sub the next day…
What if Charles was secretly in league with the DHARMA Initiative and that was the real reason for his trips off island? Maybe the Others found out about that and that is the reason for the purge… to punish Widmore! I’m sure that would have been mentioned when Ben was talking to Charles on the dock before he was shipped off… what were you guys saying about the writers wording things funny and leaving things out?
When he gassed everyone, wasn’t Ben younger than the screen shot of him pushing Alex on the swing? That would mean Charles was exiled after the purge.
lets not forget desmond’s old mentor brother campell (who was responsible for desmond and penny’s first meeting)…who had a picture of himself and mrs. hawking on his desk.
this old old easter egg might have some vital importance, no?