The Elusive Ms. Hawking

We haven’t learned very much about the elusive Ms. Hawking, or, what her present day mission is, or whom she presently works for. We know that in her younger years on ‘the island’ she was known by the name Ellie, and was a gun-toting, no-nonsense woman, and a member of ‘the others’, and that she was somewhat of a force to be reckoned with.

We first see young Ellie when ‘the island’ flashes to 1954, and get a sense of her. We know that at some point, she and the young Charles Widmore eventually hook-up, not only as leaders of ‘the others’, but as a couple.

It is widely believed that the son she bore, (Daniel Faraday), was fathered by Charles Widmore. We know that Charles was eventually banished from ‘the island’ by Ben for fathering another child with a woman off-island.

Eloise Hawking eventually leaves ‘the island’, but we don’t know under what circumstances, or why. We also don’t know what relationship, if any, she has maintained with Charles Widmore. Given her strong character, she might be at odds with him. We also don’t know if Ms. Hawking remained a ‘true other’ on the outside world, or if, her alliance shifted elsewhere.

Charles Widmore was desperately attempting to find a way back to ‘the island’, but it would appear, that Ms. Hawking was unwilling or unable to assist him. The writers have referred to Ms. Hawking as some sort of ‘temporal policeman’ in place to make sure that everybody who is supposed to get to ‘the island’ does. They say, this is related to the grand scale of Fate versus Free will.

Ms. Hawking was present in Desmond’s ‘conscience flash’, and taught him about how the Universe self-corrects. We get a sense, that Ms. Hawking has some kind of unique power or spiritual wisdom.

The next time we see her it is in the basement of a church, where she is calculating how and when the ’06’ can best make their return to ‘the island’. We are not clear, what her present interest in ‘the island’ is, nor what her current motives are.

Perhaps, we can learn something from the two pieces of jewelry we have seen her wear. The first is the Ouroboros worn when she encounters Desmond in the Jewelry Store.

The Ouroboros often represents self-reflexivity or cyclicality, especially in the sense of something constantly recreating itself, the eternal return and other things perceived as cycles that begin anew as soon as they end.

The alchemists, who in their own way knew more about the nature of the individuation process than we moderns do, expressed this paradox through the symbol of the Ouroboros, the snake that eats its own tail. The Ouroboros has been said to have a meaning of infinity or wholeness. In the age-old image of the Ouroboros lies the thought of devouring oneself and turning oneself into a circulatory process, for it was clear to the more astute alchemists that the prima materia of the art was man himself.

The Ouroboros is a dramatic symbol for the integration and assimilation of the opposite, i.e. of the SHADOW. This ‘feed-back’ process is at the same time a symbol of immortality, since it is said of the Ouroboros that he slays himself and brings himself to life, fertilizes himself and gives birth to himself. He symbolizes ‘The One’, who proceeds from the clash of opposites, and he therefore constitutes the secret of the prima material, which unquestionably stems from man’s unconscious.

When we see Ms. Hawking again, she is wearing a pendant called a Vajra. The Vajra is believed to represent firmness of spirit and spiritual power. The Vajra destroys all kinds of ignorance, and it is indestructible. In tantric rituals the Vajra symbolizes the male principle, which represents method in the right hand, and the Bell symbolizes the female principle, which is held in the left. Their interaction leads to enlightenment. When worn as a pendant, it reminds the wearer, and the viewer, of the supreme indestructibility of knowledge.

Based upon the two pieces of jewelry, it appears that she is a woman with deep spiritual beliefs. It is hard to fathom, that she would represent anything but goodness, in this whole story. And, if I had to take a guess, I bet Ms. Hawking knows ‘what lies in the shadow of the statue’.

Share with fellow Losties

Written by


~ Contrary to popular misconception, karma has nothing to do with punishment and reward. It exists as part of our holographic universe’s binary or dualistic operating system only to teach us responsibility for our creations—and all things we experience are our creations. ~

182 thoughts on “The Elusive Ms. Hawking

  1. Hi Sinster, I would love for the writers to give a whole episode to Ms. Hawking, but that may not happen for awhile, or they will tell her story as they go along.

    I find her to be a very intriguing character!

    I think Charles Widmore will also get more ‘air time’ in future, as well.

    Thanks for your comment!

  2. I think she definitely knows what lies in the shadow of the statue. I agree with Eko, I’m sure all of the Others do. Eloise is definitely an interesting character.

    As for Charles and Ellie, it’s never really confirmed, only speculated, that he and Ellie were a thing. I know it’s not really central to your theory though…

  3. Hi emzi, I don’t think we have ever seen any conclusive evidence that there was a close relationship between Eloise and Charles.

    I think it has only been implied, because of Widmore funding Faraday’s work, and the approximate age of Daniel. He may have been conceived, and perhaps born on ‘the island’, but there has been no proof of this to date!

  4. highbrow, I think ‘the others’ may know what lies in ‘the shadow of the statue’, but wonder why there has been no mention of it, until now.

    It does make me wonder why nobody has previously come to ‘the island’ in all of these years, looking for it though, until now.

    How did this secret get out?

    I totally believe that Ms. Hawking knows ‘what lies in the shadow of the statue’, and may be an unseen force, behind the current events.

  5. ekolocation, although it is extremely possible that Charles Widmore is not Daniel’s father, he is at least Penny’s father.

    I am going out on a limb, and making a guess, that Penny is the child of the illicit affair Widmore had off-island, and that Faraday is his son with Ms. Hawking.

    I realize this may not be the case, though.

  6. Hi dabs great thoughts on this, did you no that the ouroboros pin hawking is wearing is not eating it’s own tale but just wrapping it’s self around it don’t no if this changes it’s meaning or not just thought I would point that out

  7. Hi Samson, I personally didn’t make that notation, when I viewed it.

    I am going by what the writers have said, according to Lostpedia about her wearing the Ouroborus.

  8. yeah im just trying to see why hawking is off island. maybe she decided to head up the off island others? i mean ben talks to that butcher and they def seem to have off island influences.

  9. ekolocation, it’s only speculation on my behalf, but there could be one or two reasons why she left.

    1. Ben got rid of Widmore, and I suspect, he was not fond of Ellie either. He may have made her life quite difficult, and she chose to leave.

    2. I suspect Daniel was born on ‘the island’, given he was already a Professor at Oxford in 1996. That would place his birth on ‘the island’, whether Widmore is his father or not.

    Ms. Hawking could have left either because of Ben, or, because she wanted to raise Daniel off of ‘the island’.

    She could have remained an ‘other’ working on the outside world, or, developed other alliances.

  10. Their is a episode of red dwarf that revolves around ouroboros in it lister is his own father, he and kochansci concieve a baby travel back in time and leave him under a pool table. This baby grows up into lister who conceives a baby with kochansci then they go back and leave him under a pool table continuing the infinite loop of this happening.

  11. I don’t no if it has any other meaning or if it significant I just thought I would put it out their for you to think about if I have time later I might do a bit of research on it and let you no

  12. Samson, that is a great story. I think we can make a lot about the symbolism of the jewelry Ms. Hawking wears.

    It definitely relates to her, and the elements in the story line.

    What I take from the Ouroboros is, that it represents the endless cycle of life! I guess in a sense, it could be viewed as a never-ending loop of sorts.

    How much of that carries directly over into the story, I am not sure.

  13. Thanks, Skil1

    I don’t think Ms. Hawking is a female version of Locke, but I think she has a certain mystique about her.

    She is playing a very important role, and whatever powers she may possess, is an integral part of the show!

    I really wanted to highlight who she is, although little is known about her.

  14. that’s some interesting thoughts. we know for sure that Eloise is Daniel’s mother, and that Penny is Widmore’s daughter. Since Widmore was accused of fathering a child off Island, I would suspect that would have to be Penny, but if that’s the case, who is the mom? I always thought it was Eloise, but I guess not based on what happened a few weeks ago and Widmore’s banishment as we know that Eloise was an other (maybe not at the point in time) but it would be hardly like he had a child with some stranger.

    What your suggesting in Eloise/Widmore being Daniel’s parents, makes him and Penny at least half brother/sister. Potentially real brother and sister. Interesting.

  15. Hi username, while nobody can say for certain that Widmore is Faraday’s father, given Daniel’s age he was likely born on ‘the island’.

    I don’t know of anyone else who would be a likely candidate on ‘the island’ as his father, other than Widmore.

    It is possible that it could be somebody else, but…..

    If this is the case, that would make Daniel and Penny half-siblings. We have never been told who Penny’s mother is, so it’s somewhat of a mystery.

  16. Daniel being born on the Island would explain why Eloise had to leave (if the whole baby thing applied to the others). I like the theory and I’ll buy into both Daniel and Penny being actual brother and sister which would create an interesting dynamic going forward with Desmond/Penny/Daniel. Desmond may no be inclined to go back to the Island to help his brother in law out if that’s where the show will take us.

  17. username, I think we are presented with a very strange set of circumstances, if this is correct.

    AES has speculated that it may in fact be Widmore who convinces Desmond to go back to ‘the island’. I think this may prove to be true.

    At least we know one thing about family, and that is, blood is thicker than water!

    I expect some definite drama surrounding Ms. Hawking, Charles Widmore, Penny and Desmond.

  18. Are we forgetting about a certain playboy who already has 2 children on the island and we no that he knows hawking because he told lock to find her, mr Christian sheperd and also people have speculated that he used to be am other

  19. Ahhh, a lovely, well written little piece here Dabs! I know you know I share your fascination with Hawking…as she’s the most underdeveloped yet integral player into the time “mover and shakers” — having been on island, been an Other, using an off-island DHARMA station, connected to Daniel and Desmond, Widmore and Ben…

    I really do hope we get to discover more of her time-policing abilities and that it’s not left short like Abaddon’s character was. (He was less interesting, but you know what I mean. Boom, gone all of a sudden thanks to Ben.) I mean, why does she (and Charles) still have her accent and Daniel has none?

    But seriously, great research here on her jewelry! Love that addition.

    I am still thinking that she has quite a web of alliances and connections that are critical to the reconciliation of the timelines since she helped perpetuate getting people to where and when the island is…

  20. Sinster, I think Christian got around enough without any encouragement. I doubt poor Jack could handle the thought of yet, another half-sibling. Especially, Daniel! lol

  21. Hey kimberly, I too think Ms. Hawking is an integral piece of the overall mystery.

    She is the ‘key’ to understanding Desmond, Daniel, the ’06’, and how it all works, time-wise.

    I would be personally disappointed if they were to let a ‘gem’ like her be killed off, with no insight into the part she plays.

    Aside of that, I think it would be such a disappointment to her name-sake. (After Stephan Hawking).

  22. The fact theres a time machine means anythings possible.Ellie could be claire from the distant future.Im not saying she is, but think about the future.Anybody that knows about the time machine could have travelled back.Maybe they got to a ripe old age then “bam”they realised they are someone they met on the island decades ago.

  23. hello! good of you to bring miss hawking up. personally i find her the most interesting charactor, ive seen so far, purely because she was ruling the roost when it cameto the pendulum and the knowledge behind it.

    although i have no knowledge or evidence to back this up, i think mrs hawking is a richard type charachtor, i think she is steeped in something quite religious, or historrical, she one of those people in lost that seems to “represent something” other than a normal human. such as you suggested with her jewlery and what that could mean to her a a person or a definition.

    i think she may be jacob? sounds silly but i did mention it before, or perhaps is an ageless person like richard, but that tiny bit older and she knows everything there is to know about the islan,and feels perhaps she needs to pass on her knowledge because shes benefited from it.

    or even, she is jacobs partner in crime, any way good post

    and ive written too much crap now so good night.


  24. losts-colombo, Great comment!

    I think the ‘spiritual mystique’ of Ms. Hawking is present. Like you, I also think she has an ‘ancient’ type quality to her character.

    This might be. because she has ‘old’ spirit-like qualities, or she is somebody very special, like Richard or perhaps Jacob as you say.

    I think whichever the case is, she stands apart from other characters, in that sense! I think she does represent something deeply spiritual and religious.

    I get DaVinci Code vibes from her. Like she is guarding ‘the secrets to life’, or something of that nature.

    I love how they have written her character. Ms. Hawking, Jacob and Richard are very mysterious characters. I hope we will learn more about her!

  25. Samson, I did a little more research on the Ouroboros. I found out that different cultures, depict the snake differently.

    Some have the snake grasping it’s tail in it’s mouth, as opposed to swallowing it.

    From the picture I viewed, the grasping is further down on the tail.

    Hope that is helpful.

  26. Dabs, I love this thread, because I have been out of the loop all day, but thinking of our lady Ellie.
    I don’t think she and Charles had a good feelings towards each other, at least not all the time. Sometimes a passionate dislike can be turned into a passionate like, aka Kate and Sawyer. In any case, here are some things I’ve noted:

    In Jughead, Charles and Ellie get into a bit of a tiff. Charles comes back from Juliet, Sawyer and Locke saying he ran because he was outnumbered. Ellie scoffs at him, saying “outnumbered, eh?” and he tells her to shut up.

    Off the island, when Des asks Widmore for Faraday’s mother’s location, Widmore has her address, and says he expects she won’t be happy to see him, b/c she’s a very private person. We see that Ellie doesn’t care when Des comes, so why would he say that? Because he’s tried to contact her and was denied help or alliance?

    I agree that Ellie is a deeply spiritual person, and given her (supposed) leadership and experience on the island, as well as her knowledge of course-correction and such, she must have some deep connections to the island. I thinks she may have hooked up with Richard, and Dan his Richard’s son.

  27. Hi mojo, well I certainly agree that during Jughead, there was a bit of, dare I say, ‘sexual tension’ between Ellie and Charles. lol

    Whether this developed into a full blown affair, that resulted in Daniel’s birth, I’m not certain. The writers may be steering us down the wrong path on that one.

    I have considered Richard Alpert and Jacob as potential candidates for Daniel’s father, but would favour Jacob, only because he was reputed to be a ‘great man’, according to Mikhail. It may account for why Daniel is so clever.

    You are definitely right about Widmore. Likely, Ms. Hawking has given him the ‘cold shoulder’ on more than one occasion, and is why he refers to her as being a ‘private person’.

    I do get the impression, she would not lift a finger to help Charles Widmore, unless it were a matter of life or death.

    I hope we get to see more of the relationship between Ms. Hawking and old Widmore play out, in future.

  28. Me too … more Charles and Ellie!

    The more I learn, the more points to Widmore just being a flat out bad guy, even though sometimes I am tempted to believe he might be good. Although I have to say, Ellie was creepy in that episode with Des and the dead red shoes guy. Ellie’s wearing of jewelry as well as her strong beliefs in course correction, definitely qualifies her as a person of deep faith in the powers of the universe, or should we say, island. How much of her jewelry do we take literally? Do you believe it indicates a time loop, indicating a chance to change things?

    I like that Jacob could be Dan’s father … I guess I never thought of him as an actual person, but more of a spirit, or smoke monster.

  29. mojo, I have been very tempted to believe there is inherent goodness in Charles Widmore. Because of his order to Ben to kill young Alex, changed my mind, forever, I think.

    He’d have to face down the smoke monster a million times IMO, to be redeemed for that!

    The interesting part about the jewellery that Ms. Hawking has adorned is, that it could point to a ‘time loop’, of sorts, although I can’t be certain of the writers intent.

    Having said that, my interpretation is, that it represents ‘the cycle of life’. That it is a never-ending cycle. I compare this with the Ankh, which represents ‘eternal life’.

    If you combine that with the meaning of the Vajra, which stands for knowledge and enlightenment, I am fairly certain it is pointing to the spiritual aspects, as opposed to anything else.

    Just my thought on it.

  30. Another thought I had is that Ellie is in charge of our 3rd party, that she organized and sent them to the island to reconnect with or reform the others. I have a suspicion that Ben was not in line with the will of the island, especially because he starts out by taking Alex, which we can assume wasn’t actually the island’s will because she does end up dead later, as Widmore predicted. Ben lead the others too far from the spiritual path. After all, during Ben’s reign, no one can have babies on the island. Maybe that was a curse because of his experiments, saving Alex against the island’s/Jacob’s wishes, and/or entrapment of Jacob. of course all this can be debated.

    Anyway, maybe our elusive Ellie is doing her own course correcting.

  31. mojo, I definitely think Ms. Hawking is spiriting the mission, although I am not sure if she is ‘flying solo’.

    Although Ben has veered from the track on many occasions, he has always managed to keep himself in ‘the loop’, so to speak.

    Ben had three years on the outside world, to set his ‘house’ in order. In addition, to the many trips he was making to the outside world.

    I have mentioned that I feel Ben sees himself as being betrayed by Richard, and it’s possible he may have had a change of heart, about what he feels is best for ‘the island’ and its leadership.

    Ben does what is best for Ben, but I do think, he will do what he feels is best for ‘the island’, no matter how skewed that thinking might be.

    We have to remember that Richard allowed all of the leaders to fully lead, without intervening on too many occasions.

    The only other thing I say with certainty about Ben is, that under no circumstances is he a man, who would ever give up control, without going straight to the mat for the kill.

    Given he was judged by the smoke monster, it appears he is still in good favour with ‘the island’.

  32. He was judged by the smoke monster, but maybe the island still has use for Ben, and that’s why he was not killed.

    I have a conflicting opinion about the roles of the different leaders of the island, but Ben is allowed to lead for a period of time. His time is up, though, as Locke is the leader now, so he is not completely in the island’s favor. He has some claim to it, though, which I cannot pinpoint other than your comment that he was special and saw his dead mother. So if he was ruling in err during his leadership, maybe he was given leeway.

    I think you’re right on about the interpretation of the two pieces of jewelry on Ellie.

  33. mojo, here is where I think that although John Locke is supposed to be leading ‘the others’, I think it is quite possible that John Locke is leading ‘the island’.

    I am not certain that John Locke and Ben are going to be aligned to the same degree.

    I think ‘the others’ might be surprised at who they get as a new leader in John Locke.

    If anyone, John would lead them, in the direction ‘the island’ wants them to go.

    At any rate, it will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

    I don’t think Ben is out, yet!

  34. hmm … good distinction. The others, especially if Ben has in fact led them astray, may not be acting on behalf of the island, although we are led to believe that’s the case. We know that the Others do Ben’s bidding, but some expressed question in his ability when Locke first showed up. Richard’s assistance in Locke’s journey to leading the Others signifies that he wasn’t happy with the leadership.

    In any case, there may be a civil war in the Others’ group. That would be delicious!

  35. I know that this is speculation territory, and a little digression from the current conversation…

    But the thing about Hawking that continues to confuse me is her knowledge of future events, as in a future that we all have yet to see. In this conversation about the symbolism of her jewelry, I think it’s interesting about ‘enlightenment’ and such. I have a few questions since we get to talk about her here…

    First, is it a stretch to hear the implications that she ‘knows’ what is ‘supposed’ to happen. So whether it is Desmond going to the island; the island not being ‘done’ with Desmond yet; Jack needing to believe what is going to happen will work or just flat out that something severe is coming and God Help Us All.

    So what knowledge does she have and how did she gain it?

    Is it a similar knowledge as Richard’s, as we have seen Richard tell John what he will need to do in order to make the island stop skipping? Yet, we know that some of the knowledge that Richard has comes directly from the displaced in time Losties.

    So then that takes me back to Ellie’s comment to Daniel: “you couldn’t stay away…” Was that Ellie with ‘foresight’ or was that Ellie having just encountered a traveling Daniel earlier?

    Do these questions make sense?

    BTW, I’m not alluding to her being a fortune teller — it;s too trite and irreverent in the the world of Lost…

    Ultimately one of my questions is, could she know things because, for example, Daniel (in his experiments) made it to the future past (beyond) 2007 and then communicated with her, off-island…or is there something more at play?

    Sorry for interrupting wherever this lands in the comment line…

  36. kimberly, now you know why I was posing this question about that 1954 conversation the other day. I was convinced she had some foresight in her statement.

    It seems to me, especially in consideration of the Vajra, indicating knowledge and enlightenment, that Ms. Hawking has some very special gifts herself.

    She may gain some of her insight via Daniel, but I tend to think, she is a deeply spiritual and enlightened individual. She is representative of ‘the oracle’ to me, in this sense.

    She has a sense and understanding of ‘all there is’, and I don’t know where she attained this from. But, IMO she does have it, and is using it.

  37. mojo, I don’t think Charles was doing ‘the island’s’ bidding either.

    I almost believe that it is ‘the island’ that is crying out, for John Locke to lead them. And, perhaps Jacob too.

  38. The Oracle…perfect, that was what was rattling in my head but could NOT for the life of me remember! 🙂

    Yes, we’re tracking on some of the same issues. (You just do much better research!)

    I think what I have been wondering about is whether she ‘received’ her ‘powers’ at a certain point, or if she always had them. That’s why I throw Daniel into the mix.

    What else really has been nagging at me is her possibility truly as the ‘third party’ for the war, sending Ilana & Bram to the island, getting herself back into the mix as much as Ben and Widmore have been trying to.

    “Why wouldn’t she” is the question I have been toying around with…especially if she does have foresight!

  39. kimberly, I think Ms. Hawking is very much central in the overall 3rd. party organization!

    Her role, may be off-island, but she is directing certain key events.

    Funny you should mention ‘her powers’ because I was pondering this same thing. I think as Ben stated to Locke, picture ‘the island’ as a magic box of sorts. Anything you wish, will come true, or something to this effect.

    Perhaps, she already had this gift, and finding out that she met Daniel in 1954, heightened her pursuit of it.

    She recognized him, in some fashion, and likely later found out from Daniel that it was him she met.

    Just a random thought, though. Nothing solid.

    Also, Walt had this gift, which became heightened on ‘the island’, and Hurley seemed to develop further skills. I often think that Hurley knew to pick the lottery numbers, from his sixth sense of things.

    We have seen Miles with similar gifts as well. It’s ‘the island’, they get heightened awareness from.

  40. And about the powers…you make a good list here…and a good case that she discovers them on island and then will obviously use them to her advantage from there on out.

    I have another thought since you bring up the box/island…but will take a minute trying to write it out well enough…

    It’s getting back to the “what is this place” aspect of all of these mysteries…

  41. I feel as if there is some HUGE glaring ‘truth’ of sorts right in front of our face, but I can’t quite step back enough to see it and comprehend it.

    I know that way back when, “purgatory” was the quick response to what the island is. Now as we usually reside deep in the debate of “whatever happened, happened” (or not), this question of what the island is becomes nearly impossible to theorize about because there are so many wonderful clues and connections all over the place to wrestle around with and discover.

    So it seems like the “what is the island” question needs to be asked again, in light of this season’s revelations. I know you, Dabs, have started to hint at it in the various discussions on Smokey, the ‘underworld’ waterways, etc. … but if there is a war coming…concerning the island…is it all about the island? It would be too strange (to me at least) if all of a sudden there was concern for the world outside of the island – so the war has to be over the island.

    And is it as simple as the island’s existence?

    Rambling on…and on…but I just needed to vent this…I have more but will submit this RIDICULOUSLY long comment now…

  42. Ultimately, I think there is another angle to be looking at these things and where we could be headed…

    I think the ‘imagine anything you want in this box of an island’ line from Ben is one of those gems of insight that is too broad to understand, yet could be nearly the answer…or close to it.

  43. kimberly, I absolutely get a sense of what you are saying. I also think it’s staring us smack in the face, but we’re not seeing it.

    I do think that ‘the island’ is the stage where this drama is to unfold, but it is far greater than that.

    I almost liken it to, the battle between good and evil on a world scale.

    Pure speculation on my part, but I often wonder if whatever occurred on ‘the island’, has already occurred, and that it has been held in limbo by the ‘time issues’, for some reason.

    And, this is the one and only chance to set things right, if that makes sense.

    Too many people seem to have advanced knowledge of what this ‘war’ is all about. That is why I believe it has already occurred in the past, and has been isolated until this time.

    It’s a thought I can’t rid myself of. What if all of the ‘time’ issues are directly related to this. that would provide a logical conclusion to it all.

    Anyway, it’s me rambling now. lol

  44. And, I do believe that I referred to ‘what lies in the shadow of the statue’ is, knowledge.

    Look above in the description in this theory, and see the word shadow. I wrote it in capital letters for a reason.

    Now, I am really missing AES. Where is that man? Sending a search party, sending a search party! lol

  45. YES! I have wondered the same thing! And that is ultimately what I am getting at with Hawking, is that she has some knowledge 50 years down the road from here (call it 2007, since that’s where the most current Losties are) the SAME way that Daniel had knowledge of 50 years prior.

    Shhhh…don’t start talking like, “whatever happened, happened” now! 😉 JK. No, but seriously, if Highbrow reads this, he’ll be way too gratified.

    I still think there are variables though to this, and that is what we are seeing unfold…

    I thought this same thought earlier during recap…because WHY in the world would Jack, Kate, Hurley go to 1977 and Sun stay in 2007? It’s nuts. The “setting things right” as in, on a particular trajectory is one part of it, and to me the other part has to do with what the island is…

  46. Ha kimberly, at least I am not alone in my madness then! lol

    I had to entertain this notion because it was staring me in the face. It is logical. What can I say. However, fate vs free will, is key!

    For whatever reason, ‘the losties’ were selected for their specific abilities. In other words, their behaviours were predictable! Therefore the outcome could be based upon those things, and the only rule would be that, they had to have the use of free will.

    Recall Ben’s words to Jack! “I want you, no I need you, to want to help me”.

    They have been groomed all the way!

  47. Great discussion kimberly, we must pick it up tomorrow though, because I have a killer of a headache that won’t go away, right now.

    I think I am going to have to call it a night!

    Ciao, girlfriend!

  48. I thought about Smokey, oddly enough…

    As well as premonitions, dark reflections (of a separate, yet connected object), a ‘presence’, ‘living in someone else’s shadow’ etc…

    I like how you have taken it to be much more than Jughead, because although it could be the simple/easy/obvious answer…I think there could be more.

    And yeah, there’s a lot more to it all…and AES should join in.

  49. dabotchery (haha),

    i think miss hawking is most certainly ancient, in more ways than one!

    your conversation with kimberley was interesting. especially “the oracle” part.

    and how she seems to know things

    isnt the simple answer, which ive thought with richard to, is that they have been to the future, because they know what lies in the shadow of the statue, this knowledge perhaps gains you access in to travelling further into the future with more control.

    widmore is a busineess man, hed do anything for that power, hes corrupt (but perhaps not)

    mrs hawking seems to be the one that stays off the island, she knows what her future holds, so why go back.

    maybe she knows something about jack and co, that is important for her life, perhaps she has some unfinished business but cant take care of it on the island. and needs jack and co to help her.

    its the whole cryptic thing again. she wouldnt tell them why she needs him as theyd tell the old bag to f off. but making it personal to them theyre drawn back theyre.

    basically everyones fighting against each other for the same reason.

    to gain control!

    anyway, off to work.


  50. losts-colombo, you make some very good points!

    Ms. Hawking would never tell the ’06’ what it was they were going to be facing back on ‘the island’. If they knew what that was, they would not agree to go back. So, you are right, she did make it ‘personal’ for them, to be drawn back in.

    It also makes perfect sense to me, that Widmore is as corrupt as they come. He’s only in the game for profit, and if ‘the island’ held any chance at extending his miserable life.

    I like the notion that Ms. Hawking at least knows the future, because I believe that she does. Where Richard falls into the ‘knowing’ is still a mystery, but he certainly acts as ‘cool as a cucumber’. That indicates to me, he has some foresight of things.

    I guess the obvious is, that they are all fighting for control, but it is yet to be defined, what the control would be used for. Controlling the future perhaps!

    There is still one ‘big’ mystery to be solved on that front.

    debotchery, indeed lol cute!

  51. kimberly, I think you nailed ‘the shadow’ reference down nicely.

    We all have a shadow side to ourselves. But, I think in this case, a presence living in someone else’s shadow, is befitting.

  52. how you doing dabs just read all the posts on this theory and you getting a good responce to it its been good reading i thought i would warn you my next post might be a bit long ive just finished my ouroboros research

  53. I missed a lot last night!

    I love the oracle analogy for Eloise, and the comments/questions from Kim about how the island works, and redefining it. I am going to spawn my thoughts into a theory, I think.

    Great discussion here, as always. Thanks Dabs!!

  54. Hi mojo, the conversation got very interesting, as we speculated with some of our thoughts! kimberly has some amazing insights!

    I think you should write a theory. Theorizing is only part of the game! If what you write can inspire other thoughts and ideas for people, and they in turn can turn them into a theory, its great!

  55. Dabs. I have two thoughts since our conversation last night. Maybe they are connections, maybe not.

    1. I think the idea that the ‘war’ or battle that ‘is coming’ could definitely have already happened. The reason? Because this season is like the foreshadowing to that event and ‘how’ it could work. Seasons 1-4 we saw 2004 and all the island post-DHARMA, post-purge, etc. And now we are going back seeing it happen ‘how it happened.’ (Not necessarily a season-long flashback, though. There is a distinct difference, because of the idea of the Losties being involved in ‘course correction’ even though it is their present.) So if the war has already happened, and whatever other events that Hawking knows of, we can buy into it because we are seeing the same type of thing happen in the 70s.

    2. This is about the “shadow” reference, especially about living in someone else’s shadow or expectations, etc. (A theme that we can quickly draw some parallels with our main characters.)

    The other day, I was reading a child’s story about the Biblical story of Jacob, and since it was the ‘easy’ version, something about the story struck me as interesting with Lost. I’m remembering it now as we talk about this ‘shadow’ theme for our conversation.

    (I’m somewhat tempted to stick this in theories, but I am almost tired of Jacob theories…besides, I don’t have a theory on who it is, as much as this could be a clue of ‘how’ Jacob came to be, why he needs ‘help’, etc.)

    Bottom line is that Jacob ‘came to power’ by pretending to be somebody else, his brother Esau, to fool his father. He was a scheming, stubborn, “I’ll take matters into my own hands” kind of guy who ended up costing himself years of ‘fleeing’ as he got himself stuck in a situation of indebtedness rather than just living normally as the ‘leader/patriarch’ that what had been promised him. Plus, later he ended up having to reconcile with Esau, since his actions created a major divide in the family and generations to come.

    If Jacob IS a person, the traits of his Biblical namesake sound like a LOT of the guys on Lost, which is interesting to me.

    Again, I’m not theorizing on who Jacob is, but… now it’s interesting to think if somehow Jacob does turn out to be someone who was living in someone else’s shadow, made some choices and has been ‘stuck’ without complete leadership as there are now ‘sides’ waging war against each other…

    Or something like that. 😉

  56. Hey kimberly, I definitely agree with many of your thoughts.

    1. I tend to agree with whatever occurred, happened already. One thought I have which may support my earlier thoughts on the time issues is, what if pressing the button every 108 minutes, was to contain ‘the island’ in some sort of time bubble? A case of resetting ‘the island’ in time, so it did not exceed past a specific time.

    We know #815 crashes in 2004, but, how do we know what time it actually was on ‘the island’? We know ‘the island’ moves differently in time, but did we ever know, how differently.

    2. I love the story of Jacob and Esau. I can definitely see the references, so maybe we can take it, that there is something to this story that relates to Lost, and the mysterious Jacob. I tend to think jacob was a living person, and there is much more to why he ends up being trapped.

    The ‘living in someone’s shadow’ brings new meaning to the story, and may directly reflect the statement, of ‘what lies in the shadow of the statue’. It’s definitely a worthy thought!

    It would also lend itself easily to Gary Troupe and ‘The Bad Twin’ reference.

  57. I like that idea…pushing the button stabilizes the island in time, but we don’t know necessarily “when” yet…

    Especially because if there is a sense of ‘course correcting’ and such that happens, and even MUST happen, then it could help explain why the island ‘can’t’ move past a specific time. And if it has to do with ‘purposes’ … one glaring example here: We have had the opportunity to see the outrigger scene where Juliet shoots at someone in 2007. Perhaps that was why the island sent them there in the first place. She was supposed to shoot that person, in that flash. Ahhh, yes, ‘destiny’ you fickle bitch…

    I know I am digressing away from Hawking here…sorry! As I said, I’m trying to step back and see some of the bigger picture…

  58. I know we’ve talked about this stuff before, but I am trying to think about it in light of it all being ‘foretold’…or something like that. Again, back to the basics of “what is this place?” for me! 🙂

  59. kimberly, I just think it’s worth considering that maybe we do not know everything about how time is moving on ‘the island’, and/or what the pushing of the button did/didn’t do.

    We have been led to believe that it was to release a build-up of electromagnetism, but what if it was actually preserving ‘the island’ in a specific time.

    Perhaps, that WAS the reason why the FDW had to be turned. To set ‘the island’ back to a specific time, in order to prevent and/or change this incident.

  60. The problem with the theory that the island is stabalized at a certain period in time is that the printout from the Pearl lines up with the date of the crash of flight 815. So if the Swan Station does keep the island stablized at one point in time it would be a heck of a coincidence that they crashed on that day!

  61. highbrow, I know I am not articulating the thought process I have pertaining to this.

    I am trying to work it out in my mind, logically, realizing that not all the answers may line up, with that line of thinking.

    It could be another similar variation of……not sure. But, will give it further thought, before I speculate any further.

  62. I know what you’re saying Dabs…it definitely takes some stepping back to try to put the pieces back together.

    Keep at it!

    HB – if there is a sense of the Losties needing to get there, perhaps the equation of 108 minutes is what ‘allows’ them to get there on that date. If somehow Daniel tells them on 9/22/2004 Flight 815 crashes here, and we need to keep this island stable to get to that point, maybe the 108 minutes is the time variable/exponent/constant whatever (can’t remember my math words!) that gets the plane there for the time to ‘align’ with what is supposed to happen/has happened.

    Does that make one iota of sense?

  63. No, I get it… you guys are kind of spit-balling here… I’m just trying to contribute.

    If the island has been stabalized at a certain time or even if it is being reset every 108 minutes making it kind of loop through the same 108 minute period then the printout from the Pearl Station that showed when Desmond failed to enter the numbers in a timely manner wouldn’t have lined up with the date and time of the crash of flight 815. Also, anyone who left the island by any means other than the FDW would have ended up at the same time (or within the same 108 minute period). So when Desmond and Sayid left the island with Frank they might have seen Micheal and Walt sailing away from the island when Ben let them go.

  64. I see what you’re saying Kim… I think. Dan knows when 815 crashes so he has them set the island to loop through that time? The problem is that time is passing on the island because there are different dates noted on that printout…

  65. But what if it’s not a loop so much as an ‘anchor’? 😉

    Then when Michael & Walt leave, they leave. The island isn’t necessarily stuck in the same period, the 108 minute ‘release’ keeps the island moving through a somewhat normal time period enough to get to the place where Desmond doesn’t push the button on 9/22/04.

    I know there is a better way to describe it or a word for this, I just can’t find it at the moment. …

    (Plus I’m working so my brain’s working too hard…)

  66. highbrow, I have full appreciation for what you said. I am attempting to say that I do think the button being pushed may have not been for the purpose that has been stated.

    Not having mathematically or intellectually worked through all of the ramifications, I threw it out there.

    With all of the great importance that has been stated by Ms. Hawking to Desmond, and how important it was that he pushed it, (he was saving the world), I think there is more to it all.

  67. Simoposting…

    I think maybe I’m thinking it’s more of a regulator or something. I keep my freezer set at 30 degrees so that I know that my food will stay frozen…right? Now, if I change my freezer setting 2 degrees more, it’s still frozen, but given the variable of how much I open or close my freezer, I want to keep it even cooler so my ice cubes don’t melt too quickly. But, if I set it 4 degrees higher, it would start to thaw out. So maybe that 108 minutes is the amount of time needing to pass, NOT as a loop, but it will be what allows the island to get to the various points in time it is supposed to get to…especially the crash of 815.

    Does that make more sense?

  68. lol kimberly, I do it all the time. It’s allowed. We got off topic, but highbrow came in to straighten us out! lol

    I am in the process of giving myself a 1,000 lashes!

  69. Kim, I’m at work to. The trick is to ignore work and focus on Lost. I’m sure it helps that it’s 5pm here so most of the office is cleared out.

    I think I’m getting a better idea of what you’re saying… sort of… if the island needs the Swan Station in order to move through time normally then how was Hawking able to predict the flight they needed to be on to get back to the island after the Swan Station was no more than a super dense ball of metal?

  70. Dabs, how fun that your theory on one of my favorite characters made for such good discussion trying to tie so many different elements together! Thanks for ‘hosting’ and joining in “off topic” and all!

  71. Her super duper computer pendulum! If the ‘equation’ was known back then, why couldn’t the various coordinates be outputted beyond one specific date into numerous dates?

  72. kimberly, Ms. Hawking did say that is how the Dharma initiative found ‘the island’ in the first place!

    Glad this theory sparked further debate!

  73. He really is quite annoying as a character. They sure do like to throw some doozies at us on this show. (*cough* Frogurt…)

    So yes, maybe it’s all for ‘course correcting’ Radzinsky right out of the picture.

  74. Check this Highbrow, but I seemed to notice that the island has a temperamental side to it. (I swear I just posted like 3 comments ago about destiny being a fickle bitch, so I think the island has that quality, too.)

    But seriously, the island has the ability to move, and there are factors, like Ben and John turning the FDW that can throw that whole ‘equation’ off, right? Richard did tell John that he needed to get the O6 to come back and die in order for it to stop flashing…so there’s obviously more to the equation than the DI and Radzinsky can factor in.

  75. Yeah, but there has to be something consistent about it otherwise the pendulum wouldn’t work after the island was moved. But it seems to have worked for the DI around 1960 and we’ve seen it work in 2007 and we know the island has moved in between those two times…

    It kind of bothers me, thinking about it now, that Hawking was in a DHARMA station.. knowing that she was an Other.

  76. debothchery dabs! ahah

    where do i start?

    i think on the subject of mrs hawking, she strikes me as a preacher to the soon to be converted, and with out much argument the trops move to the island. if she has an insite to the future, it could only mean she knows something must change, the war, incident whatever, i think is not going to happen. i think perhaps what she wants s for the past to be secured, what for i dont know. maybe she has the secrets to what lies in the shadow of the statue, and perhaps she knows widmore wants the secret. by bloking off the past and sending “the chosen ones” maybe blocking it off is for the greater good.

    i think she is the “head” of the others, and i think jacob was once the ring leader off the island. perhaps hes died, and just like jesus wanted his word spread about the greatness off the island, she was perhaps next in line to be the keeper of secrets.

    waffle waffle

    kimberley mentions the island being anchored, and the whole time travel thing.
    i keep banging on about this, but a film called “Primer”, i would say is exactly whats going on, and best way to describe the time traveling in lost. its very hard going and intellectual, but i watched it again last night, and its so poignant, and echoes losts time travel shenanigans.


  77. I’m sure the island had been moved at some point before the pendulum was built… so if they island hasn’t always been anchored the pendulum would not be possible.

  78. Highbrow, who made the pendulum?

    And where did that darn compass come from?

    So what’s the island, while we’re talking in riddles?

    Ha ha…

    I get what you’re saying, and I’m not holding too tightly to this, but I definitely like exploring these possibilities.

  79. lost-columbo, that is a good thought about Ms. Hawking being the one who is attempting with insight to guide what needs to be done, in this upcoming war.

    You are right, her insight may be limited to something needs to change, as opposed to what needs to be changed.

    I do think she is in line as ‘keeper of the secrets’, although I am not sure what her relationship is to the mysterious Jacob. I do think she has taken up his cause though. I like your idea of her wanting/needing to keep the secrets hidden. I would think that would be very important, as they could be abused by power.

    I did take the opportunity to read up on Primer. It looks like a good movie. I will try to see if I can catch it.

    I like kimberly’s idea about ‘the island’ being anchored. I think there is something to all of that.

  80. Random comment here, since I am so behind in the comments, but when Desmond turns the fail safe key, the sky turns purple, similar to the time traveling flashes. The DI had two options of releasing the charge, but chose to temporarily contain it vs getting rid of it completely. They must have either had use for the smaller release of the charge vs. dispelling of it all at once (which is my assumption of what the fail safe key did), or Pierre Chang knew that dispelling the charge all at once would create a time situation. I am focusing on the purple sky discharge for a while, because I still feel this incident is a major crux in the time periods of lost.

  81. Mojo, that’s kind of the idea of my Incident theory… That the incident wasn’t unintentional. They need the smaller 108 minute releases instead of just doing away with the problem entirely because it’s part of some experiment. They would have ended it eventually but the purge happened and they were all dead.

  82. Staying on topic in YOUR theory, Dabsi, I think Eloise knows that Desmond is crucial to whatever is up and coming, because he is the only one she intervenes with, and the only one that was not on the flight, and the only that has intrinsic connections to the island. Why would Eloise choose Des? I think you’re right, she has particular insight that something needs to change, and we all know from previous events that Des is the exception to the rule. If there is a chance at change, he is it.

  83. HB, I completely agree with you. They needed that charge for some reason, whether an experiment, or to prevent something. Maybe we have yet to see the full consequences of that fail safe key.

  84. i think her “role” as a charactor is to protect something and its obvious the secret of the statue, she is willing to let people know about it. so she must need to for a reason, lets ot forget she may already know what happens, but wants to change something.

    maybe she knows who is going to find the secrets, but something went wrong, such as the “incident” thats wh i nbelieve there will be no incident. 99% sure, and 1% off my brain is melting!


  85. mojo, Ms. Hawking tries to convince Desmond that, no matter what the Universe will self-correct.

    What Desmond finds out is, that he can manipulate these aspects. With Charlie, he starts out by preventing his death the first time around, and continues when he thinks Charlie might lead him to Penny, and it turns out to be Naomi instead. He was convinced that, for it to be Penny, Charlie must die, but then saves him.

    In other words, his visions were flawed. By the time, Desmond faces the reality that he is only prolonging the inevitable with Charlie, he chooses the manner in which Charlie should die. For the greater cause of saving the ‘losties’.

    Desmond figured out, that Ms. Hawking was right, but also learned how he might best effect the outcome for the greater good of all.

    I refer to Desmond as the Variable, because if anyone can create change, it is surely him!

  86. losts-colombo, I agree with you about Ms. Hawking. I think she is trying to ensure that the secrets are kept safe from the world, for the betterment of humanity.

    I have mentioned that I believe the ‘losties’ were selected because of research, on the predictability of their characters to succeed at a specific outcome.

    Whatever that criteria is, she knows it. Therefore, I think she is going to achieve a different outcome.

    I think originally things didn’t go as planned, and now is their second shot at it. That is why I say, that I am convinced, somehow they have been able to contain this incident, so it hasn’t yet impacted on the outside world.

    Hope that makes sense. lol

  87. i love the idea of hawking being in charge of a third party. More than likely, she is in charge of the new survivors with the crate; the “do you know what lies in the shadow of the statue” group. This makes more sense to have 3 factions warring, since the number three has such a religious and spiritual significance. The trinity, the three major monotheistic religions and on and on. Even the new uniformed people have a pyramid with three levels.

    In regards to the three major monotheistic religions, i could very easily see how widmore, hawking, and linus semi-symbolize judaism, christianity, and islam. Maybe not in practice or theology, but simply as symbols of three major religions which derived from the same source, the egyptians (richard alpert?). they all are disciples of one common being/deity (jacob/maybe abraham), but their practices differ substantially. I’m not quite sure which person represents which religion, and i’m not too sure if it’s entirely significant.

    You could go even further to play with this idea and suggest that desmond and faraday represent the prophets jesus and muhammed respectively. I know that is somewhat of a stretch, but it’s a possibility.

    Outside the island, the three major religions continue to fight one another even though they all worship the same deity. And let’s just be honest here, jews and christians have somewhat of a fragile alliance/relationship, which reminds me of widmore and hawking’s relationship.

    Good thoughts dabs

  88. dabothchery, perfect sense!

    i think containing the incident safeguards the island…that i think is a simple idea.

    its just getting your head around why, im sure all this is going to have some effect on the real world, surely, because why not just bugger the island, and live out your days on the main land.

    i think thats why widmore is corrupt he can se the island to is advantage on the main land, but im confused to his motives, as surely the “islands powers” wold just kill him! or hawking would have him killed, but she cant do that for some reason, i think she needs him alive and vica versa, they are all playing chess with the folks on the island, but who will make the check mate?

    find out next week on debothcerys theorum.


  89. Thanks kingmonte, I am glad you enjoyed it!

    I definitely subscribe to the number three as being important, and it could relate to the various religions. Christians, Jews and Muslims, are all at odds as far as religion goes.

    I tend to think that the writers are bringing in all elements of faith, as opposed to general religious groups, so as not to alienate. But, the references are there for the viewers to infer on their own, without any labels.

    I think this is why they drew upon the ancient connections, as all religions stem from them.

    I wrote a couple of theories on What lies in the Shadow of the Statue, Ben, Richard and the Temple, which depict the Holy Trinity amongst other groups such as the Illuminati, Freemasons, etc., that could represent elements of this third group.

  90. losts-columbo, lol you are too funny! I must say that is one of the better names I’ve been called!

    Getting around ‘the why’ is what is so difficult, but I tend to think that if anyone knew the great mysteries of the Universe, how they could pervert their power, and control and enslave people, to their own selfish ends.

    Especially, if those secrets contained information about how to extend life beyond the ‘norm’.

    I liken Widmore to many powerful and corrupt men in the world, who would do anything, not so much for the $$$ and not so much for the control, but for the power!

    He clearly believes that this power is worth everything!

    Stay tuned, to debotchery’s next theorum! lol

  91. Mojo I liked what you said about realeasing energy so do you think the two stations were connected and pressing the button released just enought energy to conduct minor time travel experiments in the orchid instead of turning the fdw and getting to much to handle that’s why when DES was late pressing the button the sky changed and if he didn’t press the button it mite of had the same effect as the fdw. Him using the failsafe key just stopped it from building up in somekind of battery the dharma made that could be what is buried under the concrete jughead acting like a supercharge duracel

  92. hahaa, well its good to have a laugh dabotchery.

    althogh i dont know much about widmore, i see what you mean about his power striving.
    if only he had hawking on his side, but she wouldnt like his modus operandai so to speak.

    so, he cuts corners all guns blazing, apparently, knowledge itself is power (hawking) but not in this case as she is having to use another branch (jack and co).

    i dont buy into the struggle and battle of religioun, but i do buy into the religious side of the knowing and striving for something that is beyond our know. Knowledge that hawking has of the island,stems from her religious beliefs, thoughts and aspirations, but i dont think religious beliefs created the islands powers. i think its morenatural than wed like to expect.

    im soooo tuned in by the way!


  93. losts-colombo, I love to laugh, including at myself.

    I like what you say, about the knowledge being what is key, and what is needed to be protected.

    What we don’t know is, what ‘the island’ actually is, or where it came from, and why it has powers, that exist nowhere else on earth.

    Those very secrets, may stand all religion, on its head! That alone would be reason enough to protect the secrets. Especially, if it veered away from traditional teachings and beliefs.

    All of the wars in the existence of the world, have basically stemmed from religion, if you tear it all down. If those ideals were shattered in any way, it could cause the war of all wars!

    If what created ‘the island’ is something that breaks from that tradition, it would be a secret worth many lives, IMO.

  94. Samson, see Highbrow’s theory on the Incident … he expounds on that very thing. Although I tend to think it was more to prevent something from happening vs. experiments … but maybe both. I like your idea of powering the Orchid. I do think the fail-safe key caused subtle consequences (read: butterly effect) that we haven’t been shown.

  95. So I see…and am very appreciative towards…(blush)…

    I’ve been lingering….waiting for a fresh idea and something that needs talked about other than the 3 topics of the last six pages of theories…not knocking anyone, but I can only read the same theories over and over leading to the same questions in the end…whats the incident, what causes the incident, who causes the incident….

    But Ol’ Elloise Hawking…she was due for a good discussion…I for one dont think we will see a straight Ellie episode, she will most likely be intertwined into a Dan or Widmore episode….

    Oh…Im slipping Dabsi, forgot to say, thank you….for this conversation starter. I love the different take on Hawking. Love your jewlery catches…have never heard them before, absolutley wonderful all around…
    Hello Dabsi, and hello Kim….wow, I see I am a little late, and as usual just got finished reading a Dabsi special, with well over a hundred comments…which I have read each and everyone and am crosseyed now…

    SO….help me out, what are the main questions being discussed right now. I already have a few ideas for contribution, but I am curious to what the REAL beef is with this crazy, costume jewlery clad, knowit all, (wo)man of faith, old lady…

    What can I try to answer that will most likely help you out a lot…or confuse absolutley everyone…lol………
    …….(deep inhale)….good to be home…

  96. Well, I knew something was up with you, but didn’t know what! I hear what you are saying, though……hmmm

    Okay, so Ms. Hawking I thought I’d cover because she’s had little coverage, so thought she was overdue. Her jewellery told me many things about her.

    But, it led to further conversation about the origins of ‘the island, etc., which I found extremely interesting, and her role in things. I doubt she will ever be exclusively covered, but feel we will get a better sense of her, as time goes on, via Daniel, Widmore, etc.

    I don’t expect you to catch up, nor do I want you to be where you don’t want to be. As a friend, I was concerned about your absence. We’ve been ‘rocking this place’ since the beginning, and it would hardly be the same without you, for me, anyway!

  97. No not just that, Ive been working on a theory, and had some “off island issues” to deal with myself…but I should be around more again….

  98. Dabsi, I truly appreciate your concern, from a friend perspective, not a theorists…thank you, really is appreciated.

    Oh…and I want to be here, it was seriously the “off island stuff”, if you get my drift that kept me away, I have been watching, and although late, would not miss one of your theories, especially this one…

  99. AES, well I understand those off-island issues all too well. lol

    Please work on your theory, take the time you need, and we’ll catch up later!

    We all need a ‘break’ sometimes.

  100. I just noticed a lot of different questions, and I am with you on the jewlery…
    I am kind of trying to figure out where to start with this…if Im not too late on it.

  101. AES, I know exactly what you are saying…..all too well. I just wanted to confirm that was what it was.

    I share your angst!

    And, yes we are friends!

  102. It’s never too late, but in all seriousness, please wait. I am a very patient person!

    Tomorrow is another day, after all. Sacrelett O’Hara! lol

  103. Oh…Im back, dont you worry, I have been doing some homework, a lot of reading, and my ideas are almost out of control…

    My theory is dragging along, but there is a lot if input and backtracking….but it will be here before next episode…

    What was highbrow jabbering about up there…?

    Ready to start

  104. AES, glad to know that! I think you know in your heart of hearts, that I have no idea when highbrow is being serious or when he’s just messing with me! lol

    I look forward to your theory, and glad you’re ready to rock!

    Have a good one!

    You’ll be hearing from me!

  105. dabssssssssssss

    strange thing happened today, i work in a bookmakers, with horse racing and betting.

    and today two horses one called, Dabothery, and the other was called The Oracle!strange it made me think of the conversations we have with sttrangers on the internet.

    anyway, mrs hawking ive decided is not part of a third party, there isnt one. i think she is her own person, a lone ranger, not in her beliefs of the powers of the island, but of her intentions with the island, people use it, abuse it, but she loves it, hence the spiritual religious thing.

    anyway im all out on mrs hawking.

    until next timeeeeeeeee


  106. losts-colombo, that is strange about the horses! I wonder if either of them won? lol

    You could be right about Ms. Hawking only representing the interests of ‘the island’. She may be very ‘neutral’ in the respect that she has ‘no team’, but has a ‘spiritual’ interest.

    Yep, I think your right, we did Ms. Hawking up proper!

  107. lol That is pretty amazing they both won! Wished I had a few bucks on that one!

    Poor Ms. Hawking, has been debased to bare bones! lol


  108. we dabased her!
    but there definently more to come.

    she kind of reminds me off miss money penny from Bond. always knowing everything, not actually doing anything about it!


  109. yeah,it will be goooooood.

    time for me to go to bed, but stay up thinking about lost.

    but since its a more suitable time for you, WATCH PRIMER!

  110. Ha! so funny you mention Primer. I searched all over for a link today and found one.

    I will try to see it over the weekend! I will definitely let you know what I think of it.

    Now get ur beauty sleep! lol

  111. ah! goood

    cant do beauty sleep anmore, i did, bbut i woke up one time from a beuty nightmare, and had beauty spots.

    sick for ages me! haha

    good night


  112. losts-columbo, I watched Primer last night, and definitely noted some of the similarities to Lost.

    The Time machine, (their doubles), Fail-safe Box, the ears bleeding as opposed to the nose bleeds, the references to causality, etc.

    It’s hard to believe that the writers didn’t take away some inferences of this movie, especially as it came out in 2004!

  113. yyyyyeeeeeeeees!

    such a good film isnt it!

    i really like when you realised the blonde guy, i forget his name, has been travelling about already, thats what i alighned to Lost, that you dont know whos been where and when…ie miss hawking!

    thans for watching it, as your the oracle on lost, im glad i could let you see something that alighned it to lost.

    dont you think that Primer was a great way to describe what the “time loop” arguement for lost is, as it wasnt so much a time loop in primer, even though they were travelling back and forth, but retracing steps to make sure nothing went wrong.

    such an interesting film!


  114. lol I am hardly the oracle on Lost, but thanks for that!

    I really did enjoy the movie. One of the things I liked most, was their discussion on how to avoid any paradoxes.

    I was surprised when I found out, he had been travelling around already, but I somewhat expected it.

    I completely understand what you’re saying and how that could pertain to Ms. Hawking. That is just it, you don’t know who has been travelling, and when!

    The only thing I found hard to follow in the movie at times, was trying to separate the ‘doubles’. I probably shouldn’t have watched it so late at night. lol

    Thanks for sharing the movie with me, losts-colombo! Considering the film came out in 2004, it was pretty innovative!

    I recommend watching it.

  115. If Penny’s who Widmore fathered off the island, why didn’t anyone know for a hundred years (or however old Penny is … )? If Faraday/Penny are 1/2 sibs it adds to ‘Desmond is my constant’. Maybe Smokie IS the what lies IN the ‘Shadow’ of the statue (his lair is where … )

    Eloise. I think she can’t stand Charles and may be central to the Others off-island network and funding (did Charles have to give her some $$$ … )

    Wonder if she’s got a ‘big book of hints’ ‘in the kitchen’. She sure can rock a pendelum.

  116. hahah, well your one of the oracles,one of….three oracles.

    thedoubes thing is hard,

    but what you have to do is watch it again, and the first time you see the guy looking off the building to his friend on the bench thats the point where you find out at the end hes travled already, so i guess thats when hes travled.

    ill nedd to watch it again though, cos its mental!

    it is amazing for 2004, and i think anyone who likes Lost should watch it, just for the whole time travel thing.

    thanks for watching it!


  117. waycurious, Ms. hawking may have a ‘big book of hints’ in the kitchen! lol And, I think she can’t stand Charles, IMO.

    It still hasn’t been confirmed that Widmore is Daniel’s father, so I am sure they’ll get to Penny in awhile.

  118. losts-colombo, I thought it was when he was watching his friend off of the balcony, but wasn’t sure.

    I agree, that anyone wanting to understand the time-travelling aspects, and CHANGE on Lost, should definitely tune into this movie!

    I will definitely give it a re-watch, and not so late at night!

    PS: One other cool note, was how they figured out how not to run into their doubles. I thought was ingenious. Especially, when the one guy wanted to get a good nights sleep, by going back and chasing the kids away.

    Thanks again!

  119. haha! that was goood, the best thing about the film i think, was its simple but intelligent, and plausable way to describe time travel. but also reminded you off the fact that it is dangerous (even though its not even possible) i was engrossed, when the shutter went up at the start, i think was just something captivating about it. loves it!

    (off the point, but the dude posting the spoiler, this is the first blog type thing ive ever been on, cos im not a technology person, but WHY? i dont get it? how does he know? the shows not out yet….shall we call the monster, you go pull the plug, and il tell the smoke monster to kiiillllll)


  120. Well they definitely made it easy to understand time travel, if it were real, and I agree it was plausible.

    If you’re referring to the big spoiler posted on the site today, I saw the title. The admin., and the members hate them! We all know where to find them, if we want to! Duh, it’s called DarkUfO!

    Unleashing the smoke monster, is the nicest thing I could think of! It’s a site for theories, questions and a little fun!

  121. yeah, i was refering to that, its just strange, i dont get how he knows whats going to happen….very odd.

    but yeah, i kinda merged watching Primerinto “what could possibly change” when you mentioned the doubles thing, it got me thinking, like the two rabbits, they could have been doubles..i dunno, i think having doubles on Lost would be taking it too far…but you never know!


  122. losts-colombo, I put that kind of stuff on ‘ignore’.

    Yeah, I think the rabbits were ‘key’ in understanding that it is entirely possible of ‘two’ of yourselves being in the same time line.

    I think this could be said about Miles, even though one version is a baby and the other is him, all grown up.

    It was illustrating the possibility of a paradox.

    I guess we don’t know if this will play out on Lost, but it is plausible.

  123. yeah, i see what you mean,alot of people were banging on about why didnt miles explode or what ever when he saw himself, and i think they have answered there own question, simply because its the island, i dont think the rules of something hypathetical as time travel work on the island.

    im still not convinced that was baby miles anyway, he might have had more than one baby. (only kidding)


  124. losts-columbo, so you are not of the mind, that Pierre Chang loses his arm, as a result of Miles coming into contact with him and ‘baby’ Miles?

    I had thought this might be possible, but am inclined to think now, losing his arm was a result of the effects of ‘the incident’. Similar to the guy whose tooth exploded into his brain!

  125. definently dont think thats why he lost his arm! it doesnt seem right, like i said rules dont conform the sameon the island. he might lose his arm in a car accident for example, trying to escape fo the incident.

    in addition, im stil convinced the incident is not going to happen and chang wont lose his arm…i think the whole point of lost is it building up to something, and by these things changing, it makes it more interesting.

    the rules of time travel could have been quite easily been rewritten by the writers, as whose to say whose right or wrong, because know ones done it yet.

    i just dont think the whole “coming into contact” thing conforms to the island…


  126. I definitely see what you’re saying. I am currently re-thinking some of my thoughts. You could be right about Chang, so I will keep an open mind.

    I have just finished doing a lot of research on ‘variables’, and other scientific terms that pertain, that might explain what is going on, much better than we have previously thought!

    It is all speculation, but it makes the most sense to me. If what I have discovered is true, it changes the whole concept of what is actually changing and ‘the course correction’ of events.

    I am waiting to see the next episode, before I write up a theory on it.

    I guess you see the episode on Sundays, unless you catch it on the net, so watch for it, when you’ve seen the episode.

  127. ooohhh…sounds interesting,i think i might know what your going to get at, although i have ot seen all the episodes of lost, ive seen all the first serioes and all the new series, but i obtained a lap top and am working through.

    in articular, i think yor course corrections refrence was that episode with the guy being killed by the scaffolding?….i like yor theory already…kudos!

    and yeah i live in scotland so ill be late watching the episode!

    (sumit it as a spoiler??ahha)


  128. lol We start submitting theories here on Wednesday evening after the episode airs in North America. So, avoid the site!

    It really helps when you watch the episodes so close together. it keeps it all fresh.

    You have a good ‘feel’ so far for what is happening on Lost, so I suspect you will be theorizing in the near future.

    What I am leaning towards is a ‘new way’ of viewing ‘course correction’, and what is occurring on our little ‘island’.

    So, I am looking forward to the next episode, to see if my thoughts can be applied.

  129. ill stay away!

    id be wary of course correction though, i rember when i did religious studies, and we learned of jeremiahs “course correction”, i forget the details, but it was hi looking for people who rembered gods will or some thing….

    but yeah, i think i might know where your going with it, and i think the answer lies with miss hawking, …


  130. losts-colombo, I am thinking in terms of the science side of course correction, and how it is applied when used as a foreseeable outcome.

    I can’t reveal too much! lol i think you may have a sense of where I am going with it, though.

    It definitely involves Ms. Hawking and some other key players.

  131. coool! its cool….ill let you have yourtheory time. isnt coure correction the literal meaning anyway, that is a space shuttle is sent of course, it goes into a new orbit, and they have to get it back to the original orbit?….ohh! i see where your going now!


    well, good chat tonight, and as we would say in scotland “tis braw bricht moon licht nicht the nicht,” which means, its a good night, and i must go to bed as i have smelly old druk men to serve tomorow in the betting shop.

    so goodnight.

    and god bless.


  132. Too funny! Smelly, old drunk men! What a visual!

    losts-colombo, I will have to try and remember that Scottish saying!

    I enjoyed the conversation! Have a good night and God bless!

  133. Hey Dabs…

    Just thought I would say that I can’t wait to discuss The Variable. Not tonight, but hopefully soon! I loved the screen time for Hawking and I loved her obviously mixed emotions…right up to her, “You know what I sent my son to do”-ish line…(which I finished, with “die” and my two friends in the room gasped, “WHAT? NO!”)…

    But I especially liked her response to Des’ gunshot wound. “Up until now, I’ve known what happens…” That wily old woman!

    Given that she killed her son, most likely one that was already alive but off-island (I’m really hoping we’re not being asked to believe that Daniel was 29) – I am especially curious how she knows everything up until 2007. (Which, I believe, in that statement is a clue about what the 06 end up doing from here on out…) But anyway. Yay for a Hawking-centric episode since this was one of the only highlights on here since the last episode!

    Can’t wait to hear your (and AES’ and reliable old anti-change Highbrow’s) thoughts!

  134. kimberly, I can’t wait to discuss Ms. Hawking and the role she is currently playing.

    She certainly ‘trumps’ old Widmore in terms of sacrifice, as I was under the distinct impression, that she dd ih fact sacrifice her only son.

    Sh is one tough lady!

  135. I wondered if anyone had any new thoughts about Ms. Hawkins since the season finale.

    Anyone have any ideas about why Ms. Hawking went from wanting to change what happened after she killed Daniel to ensuring that he repeated history and got shot again?

    She obviously does not believe in “Whatever happened happened” because she takes such an active role in ensuring that whatever happened happens again.

    As a mother it was hard just watching her insist that her son stop his music lessons. She was very cold and unmotherly towards him. I think she was afraid he would be a musician rather than a physicist if left to his own devices. And why wouldn’t she want him to make a different career choice than physics. Then he wouldn’t got to the island to die. Also, wee she worried about his dying she might have spent some time teaching him how to handle a gun and not wave it around like a crazy person until he gets himself shot.

    Now if she needed the island blown up in 1977 then I guess he might as well get shot
    a couple of hours before the bomb goes off.

    And if Daniel never went to the island, Jack and Juliet would not set off the H bomb-possibly causing the time loop.

    So why does she want the time loop? It’s not to save her son because she could have done that by keeping him from going back to the island.

  136. Ishkabible, poor Ms. Hawking is right! She had to groom Daniel from childhood, knowing that she must eventually kill him. She needed to be very strong!

    Perhaps, her coldness was due to this very fact. It would be so difficult to become emotionally attached to Daniel, given the circumstances.

    I don’t think Ms. Hawking is in the ‘camp’, of ‘whatever happened, happened’. She had no choice but to groom Daniel, as he had an integral part to play, in the grand scheme of things. Daniel may just be the person, whose role, may have changed things, significantly.

    I think this is what Ms. Hawking is hoping for! That her son Daniel, did not die in vain, but as the brilliant young man who may have set things in a different direction.

    That’s my take!

    PS: I suspect the words of Jacob’s Nemesis says it best, regarding the ‘loop’. He found a loophole to kill Jacob, which in effect, may change the dynamics of ‘the current situation’.

    Thanks for your comment!

  137. Thanks for your feedaback. Up to a point I agree with you. But I have a hard time imagining her to be so completely altruistic. It is possible but I just don’t see it. She doesn’t come across as all goodness to me.

    I think she must have some personal motivation in this. Either an extremely strong tie to Jacob religious or otherwise, or a significant stake in the altered outcome.

    I have nothing to go on but I am imagining her in the althered future happily married to Charles raising Daniel and maybe other kids.

  138. ishkabible, I think Ms. Hawking is somebody who is dedicated to a ’cause’ much greater than herself, and that of others. Even if that extends to her own family.

    I think the best way to view her is, by some of her own words to Ben. “If this doesn’t work, then God help us all”.

    Taken in the literal sense, that might be what motivates her!

Leave a Reply