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She said BACK to the island

So I rewatched last nights episode, and I noticed something.

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damuse09

88 thoughts on “She said BACK to the island

  1. Right. Widmore had mentioned that he had sacrificed his relationship with Penny for the island and she took offense to that. She feels like she made a bigger sacrifice because she knows from her past that Daniel was on the island and she knows that she killed him. So she knew when she sent him to the island she was sending him to die.

  2. I think she said back b/c obviously Daniel had to be born on the island. Both Eloise, and Charles were on the island during the 70’s which is when he had to be born.

    After last night’s episode, however, I do not think that Charles Widmore is the ‘bad’ guy. He certainly has sacrificed a lot for the island. I don’t exactly know what the deal w/ him is yet, but I can’t wait to find out.

  3. Faraday was born on the island, possibly sent off at an early age b/c of the incident. He lived off the island but went back to work for Dharma, reason unknown. He uses his notebook to take notes about his research on the island. Somethings must have happened, time travel related, and he was shipped off the island again or transported. He becomes sick and begins losing his memory. This is why he goes back to the island on the freighter. He has no memory of being on the island because something obviously happened to him but he has his journal remains.

    Does this make sense? I think Faraday was one of a select few who have already experienced time travel.

  4. I think the simple explanation is the right one in this- Faraday was born on the Island and sending him back meant, Eloise would kill her own son.

    A Mother so devoted to an idea she’s willing her actively raise her offspring for the sole purpose of killing him is crossing a line in story telling that is chilling to say the least. I’d rather be locked in a room with Ben Linus AND the Smoke Monster than Eloise Hawking at this point.

  5. damuse09, I am inclined to believe that sohrshah has got it right.

    Ms. Hawking obvious has personal disdain for Charles Widmore. She likely holds him responsible for Daniel’s failed experiments.

    It was easy to see how much she adored her son, to the point where she excluded his girlfriend Theresa from their luncheon. She was a very protective mother.

    Ms. Hawking felt like sacrificing Daniel was a far greater sacrifice than anything Widmore had ever sacrificed.

    It was Ms. Hawking who convinced Daniel after #815 crashed to accept Widmore’s offer to return to ‘the island’, via ‘the freighter’, leading me to believe he was born on ‘the islanbd’.

  6. IMO i don’t think Ellie knew Daniel was her son before she shot him. She was only protecting Richard. Sending her son into the past to die doesn’t make any sense.

  7. Dharma Jack, Ms. Hawking was speaking from a ‘future’ perspective, where hindsight motivated her words.

    I agree that Ellie did not know Daniel was her son at the time she shot him, judging by the look on her face.

  8. I agree – Eloise shot her son unknowingly. What she did do, however, is bring her child off island and raise him specifically to become the person she would later shoot. Her love of the Island was greater than her love for her own child. She loved him, but not enough to go against a place she has not seen in decades.

    This disturbs me to no end.

    The question to be answered now is, WHY?

  9. am i missing something or did i misunderstand what Widmore said on last nights episode??? did he not say, ” he’s my son too”??? i guess my question is, if daniel was alive after the plane crashed and went to the island on the freighter, then how could eloise have known that she was gonna kill her own son… because it had not happened yet. if he died in 1977, how was he still alive in 2007 or whenever it was that he went on the freighter? i mean he plainly told jack… any one of us “can” die. if all that had happened before then why didnt he have a scar on his neck from being shot like he said to jack???? he was obviously born on the island to eloise and charles and shipped off the island as a very young boy.

  10. Julietslover, Charles Widmore did say that Daniel was his son, too!

    The comments about ‘hindsight’ might be helpful.

    sohrshah, I am with you on that! Both Widmore and Ms. Hawking placed ‘the island’ ahead of and above all else! I guess the question is, did they know this at the time, and if so, what was/is their motivation?

    I think Widmore’s motivation is pure greed, but I do suspect that Ms. Hawking falls on the side of destiny and fate! In other words, Daniel’s death was a ‘sacrifice that the island demanded’, as John Locke would say!

  11. ok…. i think now maybe she did know she was gonna kill him. just think back to what she wrote in his journal. ” no matter what happens just remember that i love you”…. NO MATTER “WHAT” HAPPENS!!!!!

  12. Julietslover I’m a little confused by your question.

    Daniel was born on the Island and raised off island by his mother. She knew all along that she would one day kill him, and felt that it was the Island’s will that this be done, to save the Island from destruction – perhaps via H-bomb. Daniel was raised in linear time, graduated from school and became a professor. He did experiments in time travel, both on himself and on his girlfriend, resulting in temporal disease for them both- leading him to dismissal and her to be little more than a vegetable. A little later, Widmore sends him back to the island to finish his” destiny. both parents do love their son, and they both probably felt that Daniel would be cured by the Island, allowing him 3 years to study and understand what was happening before he died. Daniel with the tie in 2007 exists PREVIOUS to Daniel in the jumpsuit in 1977. He is 3 years older in 1977 than he is in 2007.

    Make more sense?

  13. I KIND OF UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. BUT WHAT EXPLAINS THE WHOLE GUNSHOT WOUND PREVIOUS TO HIM GETTING SHOT BY ELOISE… BY YOUR THEORY, EVERYTHING LEADING UP TO HIM GETTING KILLED HAD ALREADY HAPPENED…. SO WHY DIDNT HE HAVE A SCAR OF THE NECK WOUND? IF ONLY ONE PART OF THAT WHOLE EPISODE HAD ALREADY HAPPENED, ELOISE SHOOTING HIM, THEN HE OBVIOUSLY CHANGED SOME PART OF EVERYTHING THAT TOOK PLACE PRIOR TO THAT.

  14. Dabs, I entirely agree. I just don’t understand WHY. Most stories I’ve ever read are about parents protecting their children from all manners of hell, and very rarely about people willing to sacrifice their own children from a cause. not even the God of Abraham would allow him to sacrifice his son Isaac in a story that takes back 5000 years! What sort of monstrous being is the Island to make such demands- or instigate such devotion?

  15. Julietslover, I did understand your question, but was not certain what it was you were getting at.

    Having said that, ‘the others’ apparently are not affected by the time jumps of ‘the island’, but as we learned from Daniel himself, that this IS the present for ‘the losties’, and therefore they can be killed.

    That was why Faraday illustrated that point to Jack, when he was first grazed by the gunshot.

    That is my understanding of it, at any rate. Hope that is helpful.

  16. sohrshah, I completely agree with what your saying. The ‘stakes’ must be very high, in order for Ms. Hawking to sacrifice her own son!

    Widmore, is as cold as ice, so he doesn’t surprise me as much! I think he is capable of all kinds of monstrosities.

    I guess the real “why” will come at a much later date! But, the plot is certainly, thickening!

  17. sohrshah, I agree with your statements about ‘the island’. I am not entirely sure, that I even believe that ‘the island’ is GOOD!

    I also think, that remains to be seen, until we learn more about ‘the island’, itself.

    Those are great thoughts!

  18. Eloise ALWAYS shot Daniel. She knew she killed her own son the majority of his life. He didn’t have any scars in 2004, (because he never made it to 2007) because he wasn’t injured yet. His present self was killed and injured in the past, 1977, as he always was. That was the point which I thought was pretty clearly explained in the show. Whatever happened, happened means the losties always time traveled. What’s meant to happen will happen, that’s destiny.

  19. Sinster, in the discussion Daniel had with Jack, he tells Jack, that when he arrived aboard ‘the freighter’ he bore no scar, from the gunshot wound. This was Daniel’s proof to Jack, that it was their ‘present’ in 1977.

    If you think about it logically, this was not their ‘true past’, they lived that out elsewhere prior to getting caught up on ‘the island’.

    If what you say is true, he would have a scar when he returns to ‘the island’ aboard ‘the freighter’. This also aligns itself with Ms. Hawking’s statement to Widmore, about sending Daniel back to ‘the island’.

    I felt, the writers did a superb job, at dispelling the ‘Whatever Happened, happened’ theory, but I suppose there will be people who will cling on to this notion.

    I agree with your statement pertaining to destiny, but we also cannot discount the power and effect of a little thing, called Free Will.

  20. Agreed, Dabs! Perhaps this coming war involves those who believe in destiny – and the Island – versus those who believe in Free Will, and are willing to destroy the Island as an act of will.

    I do not believe that the Island is a force of benevolence. The Judgment of the Smoke Monster alone proves this concept to me. Ben can harm and main and steal, but only in Alexis did he run into trouble. Was he in trouble for her death- or for her life?

    In any case, It will be interesting to see who ends up where. there is a certain irony to the fact that as a scripted show, even if the “Free Will” contingency wins, its was all preordained destiny- on the part of the writers!

  21. agree with highbrow. even thought faraday was out to change the past, he still tells charlotte exactly the same thing and dies like his mom knew he would….

  22. First post here so please bear with me…

    The sequence of events is confusing in last nights episode but here is what I have to offer – Eloise DID NOT know that she was going to kill her son when she scolded him for playing the piano instead of concentrating on his mathematical gifts. Because Daniel had yet to appear in her past for him to kill her. She also did not know this information at his graduation when she gives him the book. She doesn’t even know – I believe – when she sees him at his apartment to convince him to take the freighter job. I believe that when she shoots Daniel on island it becomes a ‘memory’ to her future conscience in the same fashion Desmond ‘remembers’ Faraday telling him to go visit his mother. Perhaps that memory doesn’t ‘catch-up’ with her until Desmond is shot. She remembers shooting him in the days leading up to Desmond being shot and perhaps all her efforst to get Desmond back to the island and then the O6 were to save her son! My thoughts on Desmond are way off topic here so I’ll hold those for another thread.

  23. I agree with both highbrow and eko, BUT, just because WE see that whatever happened, happened doesn’t mean our Variables know it. They may take action with the hope or assumption that they CAN change the past. If they fail, they may end up in the future – 2007- and still manage to change the future. Or perhaps live out their destinies as part of whatever happens in the future, something Ben nor Eloise knows, but perhaps John or Richard does. Perhaps.

  24. I should have known, ‘the toxic twins’ would follow me over here! lol

    Shall I start referring to you both as Steven & Joe?

    sohrshah, the implications are wide open with the variables. One failed attempt, may provide from it another opportunity!

  25. Three failed attempts. Four if you count Daniel going back and warning Charlotte.

    Sayid failed to kill Ben.

    Jack failed to fail to save Ben.

    Dan failed to detonate the hydrogen bomb.

  26. The show last night just led evidence to both, in their appropriate settings. I liked sohrshah’s explanation. Of course by the end of the season we’ll find out if the incident happens or not, and if the pasties succeed in changing the incident.

    Eloise is behind the pasties getting where they are, and so has set up a situation where change can occur. There is a window, so to speak, where there are people who can change the current future, it being 1977, which is also their past, as they are from 2007. So whatever happened happened is the rule, but as Dan said, they are the variables that can create change.

  27. Oh, wait. Dan also failed to convince Chang that he was from the future. Dan failed to convince Chang that the Swan Site was going to have an accident. Dan failed to convince Chang to evacuate the island before the incident.

    So far absolutely nothing has changed.

  28. I also think there is a force that has to be overcome in order to create change. As highbrow said, there are four incidents where change was attempted and not achieved. SO other than the losties being the variables, there must be another element that is missing in order for that change to occur.

  29. Hmmm I have to think on this. There is one possible change- the presence of Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid in 1977. Ben could of course be lying, but he seemed not to have previously known that that group of people were ever in DHARMA.

    So maybe they yet have work to do in the past.

  30. Well, it is interesting how the word ‘change’ is being utilized.

    highbrow and mojo, what is being described has nothing to do with the overall objective of what is going to be attempted to change! As, in preventing ‘the incident’.

    Yes, if we want to get technical, and silly, we could consider your proposals.

    Nobody has put into proper context, the elements of the space/time elements, which need to be incorporated into any potential change.

  31. daniel did not fail at convincing chang that something is going to happen, nor did he fail at convincing chang to evacuate certain people from the island. if this whatever happened, happened theory you all speak of so strongly is true, then we already know that miles and his mother both get off the island, and charlotte and her mother as well. daniel clearly said after he talked to chang that he was just making sure that chang was gonna do what he was supposed to do. by that i believe that he did evacuate some people from the island because of what daniel said, or because he always did evacuate them. and then he told charlotte plainly, in a few hours dr chang will ask you and your mother to get on the sub and leave the island. he knows that chang evacuates them, because he always had evacuated them, and according to whatever happened, happened, daniel always convinced him he needed to.

  32. Highbrow, lol!
    well, i think you’re silly too, dabs. It’s okay for us to disagree – it’s what makes a discussion interesting!

    I think the other element is the ultimate power on the island, which we haven’t discovered yet.

  33. By that I mean that preventing the incident will prevent everything we’ve seen over almost five complete seasons. The Losties will land in LA safely and then… what? We watch Kate go to prison? We watch Jack to Surgery. Sawyer goes to community college and get’s a good job as an administrative assistant?

  34. Julietslover,
    I don’t see anything that’s going to make Chang believe other than the incident itself. Dan wanted the island evacuated before the incident! Now the incident will happen and Chang will know Dan was telling the truth. Then the island will be evacuated. And that’s exactly what we already knew would happen.

  35. mojo, what I am referring to as being silly and technical are, the comparisons of what ‘change’ represents!

    All, I am attempting to illustrate is, that the ONLY change that does matter is, they are attempting to change ‘the incident’.

    I’ve never been referred to as being silly before! There’s a new one!

  36. LOST has got my head so screwed up that now i feel like the show is going on in my head. one minute i think i know whats going on and the next minute i think that what i thought is completely reversed……… ahhhhhh. LOST has fried my brain, but I LOVE IT!!!!

  37. Lol highbrow. I think that the aims of the audience and the aims of the Losties are not one in the same right now. The Losties think that preventing either the incident or the completion of the Swan station – or both- is their ticket home. As the audience, we think they need to get back to 2007, regardless of the incident. They aren’t really thinking about 2007 right now.

  38. Don’t be surprised if the Pasties aren’t Pasties at the end of the season finale. I think they’ll be just plain old Losties again in 2007. If that turns out to be correct then there is nothing that they could change that would have any kind of real consequences for them other than the incident. And that would negate everything we’ve seen over five seasons!

  39. Think Matrix…

    Oracle and Neo –

    Oracle… “Don’t worry about that vase?”
    Neo… “What vase?”
    Neo turns and breaks vase…
    Neo… “sorry about the vase”
    Oracle… “Don’t worry about it – It would really fry your noodle if I hadn’t
    mentioned it.”

    Were Daniel’s comments to Chang failures at changing the future? How do we know?

  40. sohrshah, I agree that the Losties want only to prevent the incident so they can prevent the crash and all that… but I think they’re unlikely to succeed for the sake of the show.

    Julietslover, I think what you’re going through is the same thing that happened to Theresa!

  41. So one of the many questions about Dan is how does he know they are NOT supposed to be there? Has he gained further insight at AA that he didn’t have prior? And why would his mother make them go back saying they WERE supposed to be there?

  42. mojo, Change is a possibility according to the Variable.

    I just don’t understand why people take away certain meanings of the show as verbatim, and not others.

    Logically speaking! And, I do mean logically, what would be the entire purpose of Lost, if what you say is true?

    That would make for a horrible story, IMO, lack complete creativity and be utterly pointless.

    I work from the point of common sense and logic, and what you guys say, does not compute logically, in my brain.

    highbrow knows this, and is why he purposefully tries to ‘mess with me’. I allow him to do that, because I enjoy his ‘best half’, but at times, even that wears a little thin! lol

    Anyway, I’ll just go be silly somewhere else!

  43. Honestly, I don’t know that all the Losties are going to want to change the fact that they crashed. Kate and Jack, maybe, but Sawyer? Locke? I don’t think so.

  44. Dabs, no matter which side of the argument you stand on you’re taking some things we’ve learned on the show as truth and some things as lies (or just as incorrect). If you take all of it as truth then it doesn’t add up at all! But we’re all guilty of that… we have to. There’s no way to reconcile everything we’ve been told and we know characters lie on the show anyway and we know sometimes they’re wrong!

    You didn’t believe Dan when he said “whatever happened, happened”… you said he was unreliable and made mistakes often. Now he says “the people are variables” and you’re all about Dan Faraday!

  45. Dabs, I agree that change is a possibility. I just think it takes very precise circumstances and it won’t be easy for those to be aligned.
    I like your insight, btw. I’m not trying to be difficult. I like debating.

    I don’t think it is going to be cut and dry change or no change. That would demonstrate a lack of creativity for me, and not be a satisfying ending. There has to be a typical Lost twist to it.

  46. highbrow…

    But is it the same Daniel saying two different things? Not the same physical Daniel… yet possibly a more educated Daniel via a visit to AA?

  47. how exactly do you blow up electromagnetic “properties”. if there is one specific thing down there that is causing the magnetic force, then i guess you could concievably blow that up, but i dont understand the concept of blowing up “properties” per say.

  48. Julietslover…

    Remember there are two forces… The Island’s inherint dark matter and Jughead. The influence of a damaged H bomb may change the way the island’s dark matter operates… thus perhaps changing it’s properties.

  49. higbrow, I’m getting in the car, and yes, my head is starting to turn around like Linda Blair’s! lol

    The reason I never bought into Daniel’s story the first time around was, because my logic, reasoning abilities and common sense, told me it couldn’t possibly be true! It didn’t make sense to me at all.

    Then, when Dan finally does admit he was wrong, and tells the truth, it came as no great surprise to me, and the many people who subscribe to the same notion!

    mojo, I do have an open mind, and like to debate, but this is my least favourite topic to discuss. highbrow and his ‘best half’ take full advantage of yanking ‘the dabsi’s chains’. lol

  50. PS: mojo, your last comment does ring true, to me. My thoughts, exactly!

    If it were all cut and dry, there would be no drama, and I wouldn’t like that either.

  51. ok…. so lemme ask this question. are the pasties that are in 1977 considered a part of the whatever happened, happened school? by that i mean do we believe that they always were in 1977 on the island??? if so, then how could they be “variables”, if they are and have always been in 1977 on the island, then wouldnt that make them “constants”???

  52. Highbrow I agree completely, at some point the story have to be compelling, and stopping in Incident would not fit into that. I am reasonably certain that the Incident will occur and that it will affect our Losties. The fun part is seeing how.

    Julietslover, I see your point, and this latest episode is the first that identifies the swan as being a more powerful place than the orchid! That said, the Island isn’t very big, and I suspect that an H-bomb could very well destroy the ENTIRE ISLAND!

  53. I am excited to see how this all plays out! I am along the lines of thinking the incident will occur, but most likely not the way we think, and that all the consequences are not obvious quite yet.

  54. Well Dabs, we have different ideas and I guess both are based in common sense. I can’t imagine any way that WHH doesn’t fit with common sense! You can’t kill yourself yesterday! That’s common sense! Dan has returned to the island with this new “Variable” theory and he immediately set out to test it… and failed! More than once no less!

  55. Yeah, Mojo… the incident is already looking a lot different from what a lot of people were speculating… Miles/Miles touching, Jack doing a Jack Face at the Swan Site, Faraday doing some kind of… science or… something…

    Apparently it’s just that they drilled into something and stuff got all messed up because of it.

  56. I’m sorry, but I don’t get the same meaning out of what daniel said to jack as you do dabiatchishere. I believe that even though the losties are now in 1977, they are in their own physical present, and I think that is what Daniel meant. Even though the events already happened in 1977, the events didn’t physically happen to the losties until they traveled to the past, and that is why Daniel doesn’t have the scar.

  57. Just a dumb question, but wouldn’t DHARMA have known if there was an electromagnetic anamoly 30,000 times more powerful than the Orchid at the Swan site? Dr. Chang obviously knew that drilling too close would be a bad idea… so why less precaution with something so much more powerful?

  58. Okay, I just want to point out that all of the losties did not make it to 2007. Daniel, Sawyer, Julliette, and Jin have only made it to 2004. I’m getting confused by everyone saying Daniel came back from 2007. Daniel time traveled w/ the group, then went back to Ann Arbor on the sub in 1974, he then returned to the island in 1977 when he saw the pic of the recruits.

  59. Juliettelover, I have to agree with you. I also got the impression that chang will evacuate some people, and did believe Daniel. But, like you said I think that is what always also happened, because Charlotte basically already told us she left the island as a child…

  60. I really have a problem w/ Kate not wanting the plane crash to have happened. She gained a lot from crashing on the island. (Maybe she will be the one that foils the plan of setting off the hydrogen bomb.)

  61. Kate and Jack will never be able to figure out how to get that thing to detonate anyway. But I think you’re right. Jack is probably the only one who’s really on-board with plan to change the past.

  62. Jack and Sayid, you mean? If the plane never crashes, Sayid finds his woman and no one murders her. These two men lost the most from the plane crashing.

  63. I’m like the white rabbit…always late…here, too…

    Way back at the top of the comments…

    Eko & HB: I don’t think it is 100% confirmed that Daniel told Charlotte what she told him when she died. Yes, it is very possible he did, considering that he was doing everything up until that point as it was ‘supposed’ to happen. But his little speech to her ahead of time cut out at PRECISELY the moment he would have said “Don’t come back to this island or you will die.”

    I don’t think it’s a given or we would have for sure seen it. (Just playing devil’s advocate here on this.)

    And I also think that Jack and Sayid aren’t the only ones with a case for changing the plane crash. (Actually think this would be fun to write out in Fun section now that I think of it…)

  64. Let’s see… I just rewatched the scene w/ Charlotte, and Dan, and when it cut off it looks like the conversation was still going on. We didn’t see him walk away, so the conversation did continue. So hence, I think they did that for people like us to ponder on that exact point.

    And I’m seriously starting to think it could be possible that the kid charlie is Charles Widmore…. (I’m talking about Des and Penny’s son.) OMG imagine, now you father is your son.

  65. Sinster, exactly! It continued, but what did he say?!? 🙂

    BTW – You’ve made good comments around here lately. I find myself agreeing quite often!

  66. Shorshah:
    ‘Daniel with the tie in 2007 exists PREVIOUS to Daniel in the jumpsuit in 1977. He is 3 years older in 1977 than he is in 2007.’

    Not so. He is 3 years older than in 2004 when the island started skipping. The only two characters who skipped ahead and lost time were Ben and Locke when they turned the wheel. Everyone else have synched up nicely in relation to each other.

    If you think of it in terms of carbon dating… wait, I think i will write a seperate theory on this…

    Ekolocution:
    ‘…even thought faraday was out to change the past, he still tells charlotte exactly the same thing and dies like his mom knew he would

  67. I am sorry i didn’t read all comments before.i believe the second option about time loop and here is a second reason why…when Daniel was watching the planes crash he was crying maybe because he knew his connection with it subconsciously,but didn’t remember the facts because of his mind condition.

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