Bernard and Rose were soooooo sweet. It was good to see them. I think that their story is pretty much done. I think maybe the writers just put that scene in there for their fans.
Excelent episode. Another one that answers 10 questions and raises 100 new ones. I didn’t speak – I just walked out of room when it flashed to white. Do we really have to wait until 2010?
loved it! Possibly the best Lost ever! I’ll tell ya though, Im starting to feel sorry for Ben. The guy’s had an awful life, and I’ll bet be soo regreted coming back to the island. The swan reminded me of the smoke monster by it’s sounds, maybe that was how Smokey was created. And I still say this is a battle ground for good and evil. Jacob being God (or the equivelent. And his “island friend” being Satan (or the equivelent). Too bad about John Locke, poor guy managed to get possesed even though he is dead. Jacob seemed to me like a gardian angel throughout everybodys lives. K, gotta go. I’m writing this from my iPod so I will continue with this when I can use my computer. 🙂
I found it interesting the Hurley was the only one Jacob had a “real” conversation with. Meaning they talked about the island and Jacob went to great lengths to get him to come back.
Was the boat Jacob and the black shirt man were looking at while talking the Black Rock? If it is who in the heck is that black shirt guy? If it’s not the Black Rock, could that man in the black shirt be Magus Hanso?
i like what someone said about smoky being created by the swan incident. and maybe Juliet was turned into the smoke monster. probably pretty out there but hey this is Lost.
that season finale was amazing and i cried like a baby when i thought sawyer had lost juliet forever….but if the bomb detonated….did everyone on the island die??? i’m confused
I got the impressoin when Jacob and the man on the beach were talking is that they were talking about the End, with a capital E. The end of everything. I liked what Jacob said. Something like “Everything up to the end is just progress.”
the end of everyone and jacob wanted that to stop from happening..so hes been controlling everything and putting everyone in place trying to change it from happening
am i the only one not really that happy with the finisher tonight? it kinda felt like it was too much going on to really hit the deep levels that i expect. hoping next season keeps it a bit more simple and spends more time with the character stories.
it’s finally nice to meet jacob and the “other” guy. seems like they have some kind of game going on – horus vs anibus maybe?
Username…I feel the same way. TPTB have said that next season it will be back to the character moments. There were a few tonight but all in all, there weren’t a lot of them in season 5, imo.
Who thinks that the real john locke may have switched with another future version of himself to save himself,then went into the past to do whatever comes up.Maybe he aint dead at all.Maybe no one is….I think we’ll see more of john locke next season..
this was epic. epic. i believe the dude who is jacob’s associate from the beginning of the episode is the smoke monster, and is locke and christian reincarnate
that is why when Locke went into the cabin to ask “Jacob” what they should do the guy who wants to kill Jacob appeared as Christian and lied and said that he could speak on his behalf, but he was really only doing it to manipulate Locke and everyone else to get his way. he set the events in motion that would cause Locke to die so he could take his body. Beginning with Ben being sent off the island and instilling in him the want to kill Locke so he could return. All of season 4 and 5 was that dark guy’s manipulation to find that “loophole” so he could get Jacob killed.
not only Juliet surviving the fall henrygale108 but the bomb doesn’t detonate after falling all that distance and all she has to do is hit it with a rock a couple times to make it go off?! *BEEP* wrong, but hey i’ll roll with it.
henrygale108–i totally think that we are going to see the plane crash again….i have this inkling that we’re in some sort of a time loop…..i know a lot of people hate that idea, but a lot of people hated the idea of time travel too….
henrygale108–i completely agree! i don’t know how or who will break the loop, but this is really how it seems its going to end up. i personally like the idea of a loop, as long as it gets broken eventually. oh this show….i want the ending to be spectacular and i’m so nervous they may let us down
I think the biggest questions from this are:
What is the point Jacob is trying to prove to the Dark Man? and
Why does the dark man need to find a loop hole and just what is the loop hole?
henrygale….i read an interesting theory on another site….it goes like this. The pasties did change what happened so 815 never crashed but landed in L.A. as it should have. BUT, since it was the losties destiny to go to the island, course correction kicks in. We will find out that the losties wake up in the Hyrda station. They were the injured people from flight 316, but they will ahve the memories of what has happened to them so far. Don’t know if I explained this very well. Not my theory.
Ok. I agree that dude in the beginning was the smoke monster. I also now all the dead folk walking around are the smoke monster. The smoke monster & Jacob are obviously advesaries. I also believe the only person who has the power 2 kill Jacob is the leader of the others. Since Locke was dead ben was once again leader. So hence. I also believe they r in a time loop & Jacob needs the losties 2 change something. When Locke heard Jacob ask 4 help that was really Locke bc he was still alive. It was a wonderful finale.
No one is talking about that fact that Charles was not the leader & eloise was. Pretty interesting.
Ive been thinking that if someone were to go into the future and just went on a killing spree,killing people like jacob and ben and alike they could change the dynamics or behavior of these guys in the past,you know change their future means changing their take on things in real time.they don’t seem to be interested about anything off island.there could be a lot more going on whilst were watching all these guys doing what they think is important
BenLinus….maybe the loophole he found was the “time loop hole”. Something about the time loop “815 crashes, losties go back in time, change what happened” allowed him to be able to kill Jacob.
I don’t think it is clear they are in a loop. But from the opening scene we see that history sort of keeps repeating itself. The black rock was brought to the island. Then 815. Maybe Dharma was brought by Jacob as well. And possibly countless others.
the loophole is he cant kill him. they are both gods. and only a follower of the god can kill them. a high priest. ben does it. he is the loophole. jacob is condescending because he is a god.
no matter what they do they will end up on that beach with wreckage all around.probably be the final scene.great way to end because it’ll re-run forever and continue telling the story.
I would call what has happened a loop….it may have only happened once, but it is still a loop…2004 to 1974-77 to ? (2007?)…that to me is a loop, even if it only happened once.
We will have to get an episode that describes the Journey of the dark man. Since they make such a point of saying what he had to go through to get there.
remember jack saying to kate on the beach years ago “we all died and we have been given second chance”.how many times has he sat there and said that to her i wonder
Okay, semantics on a loop. To me a loop repeats. So when you time travel to the past and then back to the future it is a loop. So Marty Mcfly also was in a time loop in Back to the Future. I just never saw it that way. But you can call it a loop, no big.
thats it. Jack said to kate early in season one “three days ago we all died,we should be able to start over”im going to take this literally and guess these losties just got back to the beach in time to see the plane crash,where their other selves all died in it.
so all things considered they survived their crash originally but each and every time line after that they ALL die in that crash and so are able to replace their dead selves from the past.
are we all in agreement that the live John Locke since the second crash is not the real John Locke? Since his body is brought to the statue near the end?
i think the black shirt man who conversed with Jacob is using John Locke’s body. I also think he did the same thing with Christian Sheppard’s body previously. Both were in coffins on the planes.
This means Eloise is dealing with the black shirt man since she insisted on Locke’s body going back. thoughts?
oh now thats a good point…i love rose and bernie..and you know what .i think it will all come down to saving that girl in the end.she the only one that needs the island to stay alive
you know the more i watch the show from the beginning again the more im convinced their just going through the motions again.namely our favourites..jack ,claire,sawyer,bernie,rose,kate,sun jin etc
i jsut dont understand the whole locke thing….he was that other guy…but he didnt know where jacob was…knew everything that locke knows…didnt know ben talked to the smoke monster….
oh pat must be a real innovator cos i see his name on loads of stuff……..quite the enigma eh!……now there’s a man who keeps a low profile…he must be loaded!!
henrygale108-you said you’re rewatching the episode now. Could you take a look at the good shot they gave of the statue? i’m debating the identity of it. Someone mentioned Sobek because of the crocodile head, but i can’t remember how certainly the head looked like a crocodile, and i was previously pretty sure it was Tawaret
Crazy Episode tonight. Something I had been waiting to see more of was the Statue, so I composited this for everyone…it’s only from the regular resolution source, but it’s still sort of cool.
I just loved how the titles changed colours… the white LOST on the black background became the opposite. Isn’t this game that Jacob and Black-Shirt dude the same as Ben and Widmore? They are also in the same can’t kill each other loop game no?
mixen, there is too much left to answer and battle for that to happen. also i think miles was right in saying they caused the incident.
in other news, i agree this has the same parallels as the widmore linus relationship. i think we are seeing where people are lining up…but still dont know which side is which.
Locke has to be Sylar…. he is the only one who can shape-shift…. ha ha. but on a serious note, i believe that Rose and Bernards appearance last night was to basically, without actually coming out and saying, confirm that they are indeed Adam & Eve. Black and white man and woman(black and white stones on them when Jack found them)… Bernard saying it doesnt matter if they die… “We just wanna be together”. i think this is one of those questions that the writers are not necessarily gonna come out and answer, but i feel like they gave us enough last night to just go ahead and assume that Rose and Bernard are Adam & Eve.
I’m not too sure, I thought it was interesting to see Jacob dressed in white and his rival in black, I’m not too sure if they are humans because ze rival man was like when he said it was Jacob responsible for bringing the humans to the island he said, ‘they fight, they corrupt (something else) it always ends the same’ I think meaning they’ve seen it before, but then Jacob says it only ends once anything before that is just progress –
I def think there’s a good and evil theme going on.
If christian ,the christian we see walking around the isalnd ,is dead,that is to say,the guy we see is from the past ,because he used the time machine when he was on the island before,then where is the corpse that was on the plane?.I don’t believe people can be reanimated.the same goes for locke.i think the locke we have been seeing is from the past too.
I don’t think that the corpses in the cave are rose and bernie.I think that they are henry gail(black) and his wife(white).and my explanation for where christians corpse was found by the others,burned and buried at the site of the balloon.
the reason why i think rose and bernie don’t end up dead in the cave is because it would be too sad.there has been enough focus on the relationship that they have, for it not to turn out this way.
all i can say is….i cant beleive it jsut ended like that….wtf
Yeah, that was awesome! They definitely brought it to the next level. I yelled at the tv a couple of times, too.
Bernard and Rose were soooooo sweet. It was good to see them. I think that their story is pretty much done. I think maybe the writers just put that scene in there for their fans.
Come on people. I know you are logged in. What was the transaltion on what Ricardo said? Ben is a whiny little baby!!!!
Anyone know what Richard said in Latin in response to our lingering question?
Excelent episode. Another one that answers 10 questions and raises 100 new ones. I didn’t speak – I just walked out of room when it flashed to white. Do we really have to wait until 2010?
Who is Locke? Who was the dude with Jacob at the beginning?
smoke monster??
Poor John….kind of puts that whole “imagine a box” line in a whole new perspective.
ya def want to know what he said in latin, the answer to “the question” seemed longer then just saying JACOB
loved it! Possibly the best Lost ever! I’ll tell ya though, Im starting to feel sorry for Ben. The guy’s had an awful life, and I’ll bet be soo regreted coming back to the island. The swan reminded me of the smoke monster by it’s sounds, maybe that was how Smokey was created. And I still say this is a battle ground for good and evil. Jacob being God (or the equivelent. And his “island friend” being Satan (or the equivelent). Too bad about John Locke, poor guy managed to get possesed even though he is dead. Jacob seemed to me like a gardian angel throughout everybodys lives. K, gotta go. I’m writing this from my iPod so I will continue with this when I can use my computer. 🙂
John Locke totally was the victim of a Con once again, anyone catch that. His whole past was him being a Con victim and this time it meant his life. 🙁
John’s Dead… For real?
Looooooooooooots of questions answered, we laughed, cried boooood and threw popcorn. Can’t wait till it comes back in the fall. I LOVE LOST.
Also Jacob seems to be a total con artist, did anyone else get that feeling? He also seemed like the greatest guy in the world too, how fitting.
Locke was reincarnated as the guy from the beginning of the show with Jacob on the island. They are going to battle it out…Good vs. Evil.
I found it interesting the Hurley was the only one Jacob had a “real” conversation with. Meaning they talked about the island and Jacob went to great lengths to get him to come back.
Time loop! jacob meantioned something the bennining about how it ends…they are looping untill something is changed
to where jacob doesnt die bc he knew he would….or something in the future needs to be changed
Was the boat Jacob and the black shirt man were looking at while talking the Black Rock? If it is who in the heck is that black shirt guy? If it’s not the Black Rock, could that man in the black shirt be Magus Hanso?
i like what someone said about smoky being created by the swan incident. and maybe Juliet was turned into the smoke monster. probably pretty out there but hey this is Lost.
Dont know who the guy in the shirt was….but ya that was the black rock…and apparently he is using locke and found the loop hole
hernygale108 be more specific, I didn’t notice any more loop evidence. What did you notice?
that season finale was amazing and i cried like a baby when i thought sawyer had lost juliet forever….but if the bomb detonated….did everyone on the island die??? i’m confused
I got the impressoin when Jacob and the man on the beach were talking is that they were talking about the End, with a capital E. The end of everything. I liked what Jacob said. Something like “Everything up to the end is just progress.”
Dizzy.. It ‘aint comin’ back in the fall! Not til the spring of 2010. Bummer
the end of everyone and jacob wanted that to stop from happening..so hes been controlling everything and putting everyone in place trying to change it from happening
am i the only one not really that happy with the finisher tonight? it kinda felt like it was too much going on to really hit the deep levels that i expect. hoping next season keeps it a bit more simple and spends more time with the character stories.
it’s finally nice to meet jacob and the “other” guy. seems like they have some kind of game going on – horus vs anibus maybe?
Willis…thats crazy, I can’t wait that long. Say you’re kidding…please!
I’m glad I was wrong on Jacob being someone we already knew. The writers are definitely more imaginative than me.
Not kidding. I thought it started late fall and it just said on TV, ‘Premieres 2010.’
I called Juliet would die!
Username…I feel the same way. TPTB have said that next season it will be back to the character moments. There were a few tonight but all in all, there weren’t a lot of them in season 5, imo.
Loved the whoop ass scene of Jack/Sawyer.
Loved hearing Miles say “Dad”.
the statue is sobek…
Who thinks that the real john locke may have switched with another future version of himself to save himself,then went into the past to do whatever comes up.Maybe he aint dead at all.Maybe no one is….I think we’ll see more of john locke next season..
and ben is a nobody! ha
this was epic. epic. i believe the dude who is jacob’s associate from the beginning of the episode is the smoke monster, and is locke and christian reincarnate
Agreed Eko. Do you think that Locke heard Jacob say “help me” or was it the other guy the whole time. I’m thinking it was the “other guy”.
or maybe it was jacob. didnt he say something similar to ilana. but the other guy stepped in. he is good.
So I guess we are left to ponder what’s happened to our time jumping Losties.
Questions…anyone else think it was impossible for juliet to survive that fall? and all that stuff landing on her
also….anyone else think the plane crashes again next season?
that is why when Locke went into the cabin to ask “Jacob” what they should do the guy who wants to kill Jacob appeared as Christian and lied and said that he could speak on his behalf, but he was really only doing it to manipulate Locke and everyone else to get his way. he set the events in motion that would cause Locke to die so he could take his body. Beginning with Ben being sent off the island and instilling in him the want to kill Locke so he could return. All of season 4 and 5 was that dark guy’s manipulation to find that “loophole” so he could get Jacob killed.
not only Juliet surviving the fall henrygale108 but the bomb doesn’t detonate after falling all that distance and all she has to do is hit it with a rock a couple times to make it go off?! *BEEP* wrong, but hey i’ll roll with it.
Yeah the plane will crash just before the end of next season.Well,according to my own take on this whole thing anyway.
henrygale108–i totally think that we are going to see the plane crash again….i have this inkling that we’re in some sort of a time loop…..i know a lot of people hate that idea, but a lot of people hated the idea of time travel too….
That would be interesting if season six is a redue of season 1 forward. I just don’t know how they would do it logistically. All the actors and such.
i beleive they are in a continuous loops untill someone breaks the loop
All the actors are 6 six years older, including Malcolm David Kelley, who played Walt.
I thought this episode made it clear they’re in a loop
henrygale108–i completely agree! i don’t know how or who will break the loop, but this is really how it seems its going to end up. i personally like the idea of a loop, as long as it gets broken eventually. oh this show….i want the ending to be spectacular and i’m so nervous they may let us down
I think the biggest questions from this are:
What is the point Jacob is trying to prove to the Dark Man? and
Why does the dark man need to find a loop hole and just what is the loop hole?
henrygale….i read an interesting theory on another site….it goes like this. The pasties did change what happened so 815 never crashed but landed in L.A. as it should have. BUT, since it was the losties destiny to go to the island, course correction kicks in. We will find out that the losties wake up in the Hyrda station. They were the injured people from flight 316, but they will ahve the memories of what has happened to them so far. Don’t know if I explained this very well. Not my theory.
Ok. I agree that dude in the beginning was the smoke monster. I also now all the dead folk walking around are the smoke monster. The smoke monster & Jacob are obviously advesaries. I also believe the only person who has the power 2 kill Jacob is the leader of the others. Since Locke was dead ben was once again leader. So hence. I also believe they r in a time loop & Jacob needs the losties 2 change something. When Locke heard Jacob ask 4 help that was really Locke bc he was still alive. It was a wonderful finale.
No one is talking about that fact that Charles was not the leader & eloise was. Pretty interesting.
I’m on my iPhone so it must be brief. 🙂
Ive been thinking that if someone were to go into the future and just went on a killing spree,killing people like jacob and ben and alike they could change the dynamics or behavior of these guys in the past,you know change their future means changing their take on things in real time.they don’t seem to be interested about anything off island.there could be a lot more going on whilst were watching all these guys doing what they think is important
maybe its the guys that think their in charge that are being manipulated
it only ends once…everything else is just progress…..progress meaning jacob is waiting for someone to change something…change the ending…
Sobek was known as the ‘Repairer of Evil that had been done.’ Sounds like changing the past?
BenLinus….maybe the loophole he found was the “time loop hole”. Something about the time loop “815 crashes, losties go back in time, change what happened” allowed him to be able to kill Jacob.
yes willis…exactly what i read…among other things about him
I don’t think it is clear they are in a loop. But from the opening scene we see that history sort of keeps repeating itself. The black rock was brought to the island. Then 815. Maybe Dharma was brought by Jacob as well. And possibly countless others.
the loophole is he cant kill him. they are both gods. and only a follower of the god can kill them. a high priest. ben does it. he is the loophole. jacob is condescending because he is a god.
no matter what they do they will end up on that beach with wreckage all around.probably be the final scene.great way to end because it’ll re-run forever and continue telling the story.
When Jacob says they are coming, maybe he is referring to Desmond, Walt, Aaron, and Ji Yeon. And quite possibly Widmore and Hawking.
So whats to become of Ben? Will he be the right hand of the dark man?
I would call what has happened a loop….it may have only happened once, but it is still a loop…2004 to 1974-77 to ? (2007?)…that to me is a loop, even if it only happened once.
yes loop has a few meanings so you have to be specific when saying it. feelings could be hurt. lol
We will have to get an episode that describes the Journey of the dark man. Since they make such a point of saying what he had to go through to get there.
how does jacob know everything that happens in the future? and everyone who needs to be there?
remember jack saying to kate on the beach years ago “we all died and we have been given second chance”.how many times has he sat there and said that to her i wonder
maybe he is from the future…..
Okay, semantics on a loop. To me a loop repeats. So when you time travel to the past and then back to the future it is a loop. So Marty Mcfly also was in a time loop in Back to the Future. I just never saw it that way. But you can call it a loop, no big.
jacob is from the future.and he shouldnt be where he is.
I guess I have to agree with ekolocation. The two guys at the beginning must be the god of good and the god of evil. Until proven wrong.
marty mcfly changed the present
if ending up back on the beach when the plane crashes gets rid of a version of ben and jacob and co in some way, it would be worth it
I agree about ur loop hole theory Eko.
Did anyone catch the title of the book Jacob was reading?
its on lostpedia. as is supposedly the translation of what lies in the shadow of the statue Ille qui nos omnes servabit –
im re watching the ep right now
thats it. Jack said to kate early in season one “three days ago we all died,we should be able to start over”im going to take this literally and guess these losties just got back to the beach in time to see the plane crash,where their other selves all died in it.
i figured we’d at least get a claire sighting
so all things considered they survived their crash originally but each and every time line after that they ALL die in that crash and so are able to replace their dead selves from the past.
Found some great info…
http://books.google.com/books?id=o0aQMlFX8ugC&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115&dq=symbolism+of+the+weaver&source=bl&ots=iYUyZ6BqID&sig=7aiBqE1FSsrXwDpxmS8UoIb9DPY&hl=en&ei=zaULSuKvOMGMtge2hsyTCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4
I guess you’ll have to copy and past. Very interesting. Talks about the symbolism of the weaver.
HurleyBird-Jacob was reading “Everything That Rises Must Converge”- a short story by Flannery O’Connor.
where did sawyer get the snack he fed vincent on the beach? haha a mistake by the film crew?
i gave it to him
a submarine sandwich perhaps? ok that was a bad joke
are we all in agreement that the live John Locke since the second crash is not the real John Locke? Since his body is brought to the statue near the end?
didnt the cabin….look like rose and bernards cabin?
oh a sub!!!!!…….it took me about 2 or three minutes for that to sink in….ha haaa
i think the black shirt man who conversed with Jacob is using John Locke’s body. I also think he did the same thing with Christian Sheppard’s body previously. Both were in coffins on the planes.
This means Eloise is dealing with the black shirt man since she insisted on Locke’s body going back. thoughts?
jacob is reading Flannery O’Connor’s Everything That Rises Must Converge
HenryGale108-Rose and Bernard’s cabin is the same as Jacob’s cabin.
oh now thats a good point…i love rose and bernie..and you know what .i think it will all come down to saving that girl in the end.she the only one that needs the island to stay alive
jacob was reading…everything that rises must converge…by flannery oconner
you know the more i watch the show from the beginning again the more im convinced their just going through the motions again.namely our favourites..jack ,claire,sawyer,bernie,rose,kate,sun jin etc
i jsut dont understand the whole locke thing….he was that other guy…but he didnt know where jacob was…knew everything that locke knows…didnt know ben talked to the smoke monster….
who read any books by pat pending……i always see his name on the inside of quite a lot of books……anyone?
i agree henrygale it’s definitely confusing. but we wont know for about 240days ahhhhh
Good points henrygale
oh pat must be a real innovator cos i see his name on loads of stuff……..quite the enigma eh!……now there’s a man who keeps a low profile…he must be loaded!!
henrygale108-you said you’re rewatching the episode now. Could you take a look at the good shot they gave of the statue? i’m debating the identity of it. Someone mentioned Sobek because of the crocodile head, but i can’t remember how certainly the head looked like a crocodile, and i was previously pretty sure it was Tawaret
maybe its just a pen name.
Crazy Episode tonight. Something I had been waiting to see more of was the Statue, so I composited this for everyone…it’s only from the regular resolution source, but it’s still sort of cool.
http://rapidshare.com/files/232750216/Lost-Statue.jpg
I just loved how the titles changed colours… the white LOST on the black background became the opposite. Isn’t this game that Jacob and Black-Shirt dude the same as Ben and Widmore? They are also in the same can’t kill each other loop game no?
mixen, there is too much left to answer and battle for that to happen. also i think miles was right in saying they caused the incident.
in other news, i agree this has the same parallels as the widmore linus relationship. i think we are seeing where people are lining up…but still dont know which side is which.
Locke has to be Sylar…. he is the only one who can shape-shift…. ha ha. but on a serious note, i believe that Rose and Bernards appearance last night was to basically, without actually coming out and saying, confirm that they are indeed Adam & Eve. Black and white man and woman(black and white stones on them when Jack found them)… Bernard saying it doesnt matter if they die… “We just wanna be together”. i think this is one of those questions that the writers are not necessarily gonna come out and answer, but i feel like they gave us enough last night to just go ahead and assume that Rose and Bernard are Adam & Eve.
if they dont explicitly state it then i agree. it seems the most logical choice anyways.
I’m not too sure, I thought it was interesting to see Jacob dressed in white and his rival in black, I’m not too sure if they are humans because ze rival man was like when he said it was Jacob responsible for bringing the humans to the island he said, ‘they fight, they corrupt (something else) it always ends the same’ I think meaning they’ve seen it before, but then Jacob says it only ends once anything before that is just progress –
I def think there’s a good and evil theme going on.
I’m so confused its ridiculous.
If christian ,the christian we see walking around the isalnd ,is dead,that is to say,the guy we see is from the past ,because he used the time machine when he was on the island before,then where is the corpse that was on the plane?.I don’t believe people can be reanimated.the same goes for locke.i think the locke we have been seeing is from the past too.
I don’t think that the corpses in the cave are rose and bernie.I think that they are henry gail(black) and his wife(white).and my explanation for where christians corpse was found by the others,burned and buried at the site of the balloon.
the reason why i think rose and bernie don’t end up dead in the cave is because it would be too sad.there has been enough focus on the relationship that they have, for it not to turn out this way.