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Richard’s “state-ment”…Dabs?

I’ve looked through quite a few of the new postings, not all, and used the lovely “Richard” search feature, and have yet to see anyone bring this up yet.

Since we have a long time to unpack and dissect this past season and some of the new revelations or elements of what we are dealing with, I have one seemingly simple question.

Let me give the context first:

(This scene takes place about 11 minutes into the episode, “The Incident, Part 1”)

Locke =”You’ve been staring for the last 10 minutes, Richard, is there something you would like to ask me?”

Richard = “Ben told me that he strangled you.”

Locke =”That is my recollection, yes.”

Richard =”He said he was sure you were dead. He saw your coffin loaded onto that plane that you came back on. How are you alive?”

Locke =”Well, you’ve been on this island much longer than I have Richard, if anyone should have an explanation, I would think it would be you.”

Richard =”Yeah, I have been here a long time, John, and I’ve seen things on this island that I can barely describe, but I’ve never seen someone come back to life.”

Locke =”And I’ve never seen anyone who doesn’t age. It doesn’t mean it can’t happen.”

Richard =”I’m this way because of Jacob and if I had to guess, he’s the reason you’re not in that coffin anymore.”

This scene is pretty interesting to dissect, at this point, without knowing if the “not”-Locke character is actually “in the dark” about some island mysteries or is “playing” Richard, but regardless…Richard gives some pretty significant information, and he does so with a revealing tone, IMO.

When Richard delivers the line, “I’m this way because of Jacob…” did anyone else get the impression that Richard’s ‘state’ of being is not necessarily a positive thing?

If we are to assume that Richard has been ‘granted a gift’ of immortality, or anything like it that would account for not aging, I would put forth the idea that based on how he is talking to “Locke” at that point, that Richard’s ‘state’ could be something other than a ‘blessing’ or something positive to him.

Did anyone else hear his tone and think that he’s not exactly thrilled with whatever “this way” is?

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kimberly

I really am from Portland.

118 thoughts on “Richard’s “state-ment”…Dabs?

  1. Somebody did mention not long ago (can’t remember the post) that richard was granted this ‘gift’ for what Richard may have done on the Black Rock. If your train of thought is correct then maybe he’s got this ‘gift’ for something he didn’t do to help the slaves or he may have been one of the culprits?

    I did think about posting a similar question as to Richards lack of ageing after the finale but i didn’t pick up on the tone in which it was said, good spot.

    It could also be that maybe Richard is sick of life after living so long, maybe he wants that final release, i mean how much conversation can you have on an island with virtually no visitors, no news, entertainment etc

  2. Bigdaveg, I guess that whole dialogue between Richard and “Locke” really stood out to me as a key scene because of the multiple layers of interpretation possible to what was said…

    1 – It appears that the “Locke” character was without some pretty important information – knowing all about Richard’s ‘state’, where Jacob lived, even possibly what Smokey said to Ben in the underground temple. (Which, if it is true, is supporting evidence that they are very separate beings.)

    2 – That Richard has never seen a dead person come back to life. It doesn’t mean that dead people can’t be seen, I would assume, but they are still dead. So then the question at that moment became, “So what was the deal with all the visions and interactions with Christian?” – he’s obviously still dead, but interacting the same way that Locke was.

    3 – This point about if Richard is serving as Jacob’s ‘messenger’ and the Others ‘advisor’ and it’s not a ‘good’ thing. It’s potentially more of a ‘curse’ to not age…or something like that for lack of a better word.

    If it is “immortality” that Richard was granted, that makes Jacob’s ‘powers’ pretty interesting, too…considering that he seemed to have a purpose in what he was up to, for quite a long time at that. Why would immortality be important? And why would he grant Richard immortality if he himself didn’t have it?

    I’m just not buying into “Richard doesn’t age because Jacob ‘blessed’ him with the gift of immortality” thing at this point. So I want to hear other people’s perspectives on it!

    Thanks for the comment BigDave!

  3. Hey kimberly, great idea to post about Richard Alpert. We know so little about him!

    For starters, what I see is this. Perhaps Richard’s immortality was not a gift, but rather a punishment of sorts. Again, we are dealing with the ‘duality’ of the whole question. And, most importantly, perception!

    I think this notion, will become ‘key’ in the final season. We are being asked to view things, based upon our own perceptions, understandings and beliefs.

    The conversation between the Fake Locke and Richard was telling, in the sense that, Richard is suspect of the fake Locke from the get go. He said he’d never seen this happen before, and is suspicious.

    Richard as the great ‘Advisor’ to ‘the others’ is also something to be questioned, in terms of an advisor, IMO has greater knowledge and insight, than those who rule. This does not appear the case, with Richard for some unknown reason. He appears, not to really care that much! Like he is not invested, in the outcome.

    He basically does whatever Jacob tells him to do, without any vested interest. Perhaps, that is the curse of immortality! At what point do you stop caring?

    We all know that there are dead people on ‘the island’, and some have manifested through the smoke monster, while others have not.

    Richard’s last statement is telling! He says he is this way, because of Jacob. He stated nothing about it, being a gift, or a good thing.

    There are many layers to this story!

    Nice job uncovering some of the layers!

  4. I see what you mean about a curse, if i was immortal id be in Las Vegas blowing millions of £££’s or sunning it up somewhere not stuck on an island where it just rains all the time (actually i live in the UK haha)

    Point 2: maybe Richard has seen a dead person he just never knew they were dead, he looks pretty confused when Ilana shows him Lockes body.

    Could Richards none ageing be due to his purpose to the island/Jacob? Is he the gate keeper, firewall, guardian as such. He can lead people to Jacob as nobody knows how to get to him. He’s the first point of suspicion, if he thinks your Bob you won’t see him.

    Brace yourself this gets confusing.

    The reason he let Locke go and see Jacob is that he believes Locke is the leader as Christian (who i now believe was Bob) told Locke he was to be leader. When Locke started skipping through time he told Richard that Jacob told him he was to be leader, so Richard believes it’s come from the man himself.

    Later on in the final episode Richard even asks Locke if he’s the right guy.

  5. Dabs – Agreed…”Advisor” is a very interesting term for him, as we have seen him sit in the background on many ‘questionable’ acts – such as Widmore’s plan to kill baby Alex. I also thought it was very interesting that as an “advisor” we were simultaneously watching him being led around by Ellie (in 1977 w/Jack) and in 2007 by Locke.

    There are a few more layers to these things, I believe…

    First is the scene in ’77 where he asks Jack about Locke…Richard’s ‘instincts’ reveal he doesn’t see anything special about Locke. Jack, who is yet another ‘time traveler’ in Richard’s eyes, tells him not to give up on Locke.

    He also says his responsibility is to ‘protect’ the leader…which I think can have many meanings. For instance, he could use his own ‘free will’ to determine what “protection” of the leader looks like…so if it involves killing or lying or manipulating, then it doesn’t mean that is exactly what the “orders” were as much as how Richard is choosing to fulfill them.

    I do think he comes across as ‘disinterested’ and doesn’t have a vested interest so much in what the “leaders” do as much as them supposedly being the “right” people. I wonder if that reveals some of what Jacob has used him for…and I wonder if there is something that Richard has to accomplish in order to be ‘freed’ (again, for lack of a better term.)

    I also think that Richard’s knowledge is limited, which to me implies that there are potential ‘trust’ issues with Richard as well as other things. But I also don’t see Jacob just dispensing information rather freely at all, with anyone…because that goes into the ‘free will’ conversation with many implications, too!

  6. Here’s my comment from the other post that fits in better here… I see I have another long one to read through too…

    In hind sight we probably should have known that Locke wasn

  7. Richard does seem disinterested in some things (most things?) the leaders do but I think that’s because while Jacob sends orders to them through Richard, they’re also kind of free to do their own thing as well… Take the fertility research for example. That’s something Ben is doing, but not on orders from Jacob. Therefore, Richard is not interested… he says Ben is wasting his time with it.

  8. You know, Richard may not have free will… he may have the ability to make decisions on specific actions but those actions must be done in the act of fulfilling more general orders. Jacob tells him to do something and he does it. He decides how to do it but he must get it done. Not having free will kind of takes away his humanity and that could be the price he pays for immortality.

  9. I think we’re simoposting….

    But, first….

    I think Richard has been kept in the dark about how certain aspects of the island works. Otherwise, the ‘time travelers’ wouldn’t be so phenomenal to him, and he would have known that Locke was a self-appointed leader, in CERTAIN ways.

    But, here’s my own argument about that point…

    I think that Jacob knew what The Other Guy was doing through Locke. So that’s why even if Locke was ‘self-appointed’, Jacob let it play itself out. Hence why Richard was in the dark, yet suspicious about it. He knows just enough to be important to whatever Jacob needs him for.

  10. Well, not that Mr. Grey Hair is in the picture we know that Locke wasn’t really self-appointed. He is responsible for the compass and he is responsible for what Richard told him when he fixed his leg. Now there’s outside influence on the situation.

    I totally agree that Richard isn’t told everything. He’s not the keeper of all the island’s secrets like we were hoping he was. You’re right… if he were he would have been all “Oh, your from the future? Gnarly”. Instead he’s confused. I don’t think he even knows about Bocaj. If he did I think he would have figured out Fake Locke.

  11. Nice call there! It was the Imposter that told Locke that he needed to die…

    I guess one of the questions that opens up again is when did the Impostor start using Locke?

    Aren’t there suggestions that way back when Locke stared Smokey down (and it was beautiful) that this could be correlated to Locke’s eventual purpose of being used by the Impostor and/or Jacob?

  12. Back to Richard though, maybe we should call him a servant to Jacob instead of something with authority…

    Richard, Richard…it’s a good thing that “Cane” was cancelled…Otherwise, what would we do without him?

  13. Yeah, this is where I’m a bit unsure. On the one hand I think of the smoke monster as the one who’s keeping everyone in line… including the island oldest two inhabitants. “Locke” disappears when Ben goes into the hole to see the monster, “Locke” disappears when Ben says he’s going inside to call it then comes back out of the woods after it doesn’t show up. It seems like “Locke” doesn’t want the monster to see him and catch on to what he’s up to.

    The other explanation is that there is more than one smoke monster. I’m starting to lean this way. We’ve seen the smoke monster react so differently… Locke thought it was beautiful, Eko thought it hurt when his body hit the ground… I think there might be two monsters and I think there might be two temples. Remember that the wall isn’t really the temple, it just marks out the perimeter. Maybe there’s another temple in there.

    Then maybe Mr. Blackshirt there has a smoke monster he was using to collect information about the Losties, evaluating them to see which one he could use. Eko wasn’t working out so he killed him. Same with the pilot. Locke has had two (right, two?) run-ins with the monster and survived both.

    We could go on and on about the experiences of John Locke on the island… we don’t know who healed him… maybe it wasn’t Jacob. He sacrificed Boone! That could have been a test… once Locke showed that he was willing to do that just because the island wanted him to (actually Mr. Mysterio) he proved that he was the one who would blindly follow and do whatever he was told…

    I’m out… time to go home… Later!

  14. Wow. You are on a roll!

    When I’m a little more with it I will attempt to wrap my mind around the possibility of two Smokies. πŸ™‚

    I do think the idea of Impostor Locke keeping out of Smokey’s sight is another really good idea of what/why Locke was behaving the way he was. (It’s a nice counterpoint to the idea that Smokey was taking on Locke’s form so couldn’t appear as both.)

    Ben’s line when he was anticipating Smokey, “What is about to come out of the trees, I can’t control…” is one of the best….

  15. sorry kimberly, I had to duck out. I am nursing some kind of virus.

    Anyway, in terms of the conversation Richard has with Jack, says two things. First, that Richard seemed to doubt Locke as a Leader.

    It seems odd, that he wouldn’t question the ‘all knowing’ Jacob. And, was Jacob just on board with this?

    I mean, wouldn’t the ‘all knowing’ Jacob know that a time traveller from the future, was not the intended leader, back in 1954 when Locke & Richard first met?

    It would seem that Jacob isn’t too discerning with who leads ‘the others’. Just look at his past choices! hmmm

    Secondly, it poses whether or not Richard is allowed to give certain input, as opposed to taking a more passive approach, and allowing ‘the others’ own free will to reign supreme.

    I think it places the entire question of ‘free will’ at the forefront.Anyway, there are many layers with Richard, to peel away.

    On a side note, in terms of 2 smoke monsters. While an interesting idea, we have never seen any GOOD actions from the smoke monster. Yes, it spared certain people’s lives on occasion, but mostly we have seen it kill people.

    That aside, I think it would take away from the entire mystique of the smoke monster, if there were two. Just my take.

  16. Oh you and me both then, Dabs. That’s a bummer!

    I am wondering if there are two ways to perceive Jacob’s ‘knowledge’ and you bring up a great situation to play them both out.

    If Jacob is all knowing, then yes, it could be perceived as strange that Locke has a hand in determining his supposed leadership. So why he wouldn’t intervene at any point, whether it was 1954 or 2004? And yes, it could also be implied that the leaders that Jacob either chooses (or allows) are to be questioned on their own merits of ‘greatness’ or even just ‘goodness’ because they definitely have made some severely disturbing choices such as trying to kill a child or the Purge.

    On the other hand, if Jacob allows for free will, which includes the ‘authority’, ‘knowledge’ or simple purpose he has ‘bestowed’ upon Richard, then all of those things are done under Jacob’s watch but not necessarily at his direction. If everyone is functioning with free will, then no matter whose ‘watch’ it falls under, at some point, there is personal responsibility for your own ‘destiny.’

    I would say that Richard’s passivity, lack of ‘complete’ knowledge and investment make me think that it really is revealing to his role and as you said, the free will conversation as a whole, which has to include everyone.

    I just took Nyquil, so I hope I made some sort of sense. :p

    I think having two Smokeys would be even more complicated than having two Lockes is now turning out to be with only 17 episodes left to resolve the entire series. (Resolve being subjective, of course.) It’s kind of interesting to think about…like if the ‘bad’ Smokey has a ‘good’ side…but like you said, have we seen Smokey actually ever do any good? And if it was the sparing of lives, how do we not know that it had an intended purpose….as we have seen that it obviously does have a purpose (versus just being a killing machine) given it’s role as the ‘judge’ over Ben.

    BTW, did you read AC’s lost-place recaps yet? I am so curious what you think! πŸ™‚

  17. It sure is kimberly, and I am allergic to any kind of cold medicines, etc. Btw, you made perfect sense!

    I agree with everything you said about Jacob. Now here is something else to ponder! You hit on something very significant with ‘the others’. While Jacob may very well allow them to exercise their own free will, why does the smoke monster not judge any of their actions?

    If that just gave you a wtf moment, it should have! The only people that we are aware of that have been slaughtered by the smoke monster have been anyone else who has come to ‘the island’!

    So, if we are to believe that Jacob is all knowing and good, why are his people not killed for their choices and actions?

    And, if that then is true, it would indicate that ‘the others’ operate with impunity. Their only punishments, have been being exiled from ‘the island’.

    That brings us to Jacob’s Nemesis, who we know hated him, and despised what he was doing. If he is affiliated with the smoke monster, as some people think, why then, would the smoke monster never kill any of ‘the others’?

    I am presenting a scenario, that not only involves Richard and ‘the others’, but how we look at Dharma, and ‘the losties’. And, Jacob and his Nemesis.

    Ben was only judged for being responsible for Alex’ death. He didn’t kill her, but annihilated an entire group of people, The Dharma Initiative, and was NEVER judged for those deeds.

    What it comes down to is this, IMO. Not everything is as it seems. The lines are becoming almost invisible, they are so close together.

    This is why I am reserving judgement, until we can peel back the layers.

    Fortunately, we have quite some time to do this, until the next season begins.

    I also wanted to mention, that we still haven’t learned how Dharma came to ‘the island’, and were allowed almost full access to it, and it’s resources. This was done with the permission of ‘the others’ and likely were Jacob’s orders.

    So, what gives with Jacob? Do we really have a clear cut idea, of who he is, and what he represents? I would have to say, a resounding no!

    PS: I haven’t read anything since the finale. I will read AC’s blog when I am feeling better, which I hope is soon! lol

    Thanks for the great discussion, as always.

  18. Hi long time reader, first time poster πŸ™‚ after watching the finale I couldn’t help but come on and see what everyone’s opinions on it were, and I found the topic of Richard particularly interesting too, as there were definitely some developments in his character that were worth looking into.

    So, out of curiosity (and I know this probably won’t be the case since Richard has been with us for a long time now) but is there a possibility that Richard isn’t alive? Now I

  19. This might be the best Richard conversation and the best smoke monster conversation I’ve read yet all rolled into one.

    So, about Richard being dead… I think if he were like Fake Locke he’d probably know stuff that Jacob knows and he wouldn’t seem so confused all the time… just my two cents… I think he’s alive.

    About the two smoke monsters… I haven’t even nearly sold myself on that yet… Yes, it’s true that we’ve only seen the smoke monster do stuff like kill people or play basketball with them… but we’ve heard of the smoke monster once referred to as “beautiful”. If there are two smoke monsters then the explanation will be that one of them is taking the same position on events that Jacob has taken. He isn’t interfering.

    And about Jacob… I think he does know all about all the things that are going on. He knows about Fake Locke, he knows what’s going to happen, he knows what

  20. Excellent post and comments here.

    You’ve picked up on something with Richard and his statement to Locke and I feel you could be right. For whatever reason Richards immortality is punishment, or something along those lines… I feel it’s definately something Richard doesn’t want.

    When he says “I’m this way because of Jacob”, instead of it meaning “I’m this way because Jacob made me this way”, perhaps it means “I’m this way because Jacob exsists, if he didn’t exsist I’d be mortal”… if that makes any sense?

    Perhaps if Jacob dies, then Richard will too?

    I’d like to add to the point about there being two smoke monsters too.

    It’s a popular thought that Jacobs nemesis is the smoke monster masquerading as dead people. I want to be against this idea because I’d like Jacob and his nemesis to be similar and the smoke monster to be a separate entity entirely.

    However, if there are two smoke monsters, perhaps Jacob has control of one, and his nemesis the other. I’d warm more to the idea of his nemesis being “evil smokey” if there were two.

  21. Yeah, until we actually see it I’m going to resist the idea that the smoke monster(s) actually are either Jacob or his friend. I think there’s three to four seperate entities.

  22. There’s a lot to respond to here…I’ll do my best because there are a lot of things worth dialoguing about IMO!

    Dabs –

    Yes, GREAT catch on why the Others never have appeared to be judged by Smokey. Two thoughts…

    1) Has it ever been established if the sonic fence (or anything else for that matter) actually provides protection from Smokey? I know what Richard said about it keeping some things out…but I just wonder if that barrier helped them at all.

    2) More importantly and ‘philosophically’, both Jacob and his Nemesis have something to gain in ‘allowing’ the Others to live despite their actions. Jacob and his hope for ‘progress’; and Nemesis in making his point and even more, seeking a loophole.

    Perhaps that ties into why Smokey and The Others were able to co-exist? By no means is it an answer, because as you said, there are layers and there are very few simple answers about these entities at this point!

    Okay. I’ll be back for more in a bit.

  23. Vincentisthekey…glad you joined the conversation.

    Right up to the point of Richard saying he’s seen a lot of things, but never seen dead people come back to life I had highly considered that he was dead. I took that statement as something that ‘debunked’ that idea though…as I am now accounting for visions of dead people to not actually be the dead person but a manifestation of their appearance by one of the entities: Nemesis or Smokey.

    You bring up Abaddon though, which I think is really critical, because we know that he had a very similar ‘visitor’, ‘messenger’ type role. Now that he’s gone though, I have a feeling his mystery might remain a mystery until we get something really solid to tie him into.

  24. Yes, the fence does keep the smoke monster out. Remember when Kate and Juliet were handcuffed togehter… umm, handcuffed together… they were sweaty and handcuffed… where was I? Oh, right… the moster was chasing them and they ran through the fence and turned it on and it stopped the monster dead in its tracks. So that can account for why the monster hasn’t wiped out the DHARMA Initiative.

    The Others though I believe are Jacobs people and as such they are off limits per the rules. The same rules that keeps the black shirt from killing Jacob.

    This is interesting too… remember a while ago there was talk about there being two groups of Others? Those who were with Richard and those who were recruited. Those who were recruited may not qualify for this kind of protection which would account for the Others (at least one group of them) still using the sonic fence even while they were the only people on the island.

  25. Nice addition to the conversation, Highbrow.

    I am glad you aren’t completely sold on the two Smokeys…but then again, maybe you should be so that we don’t agree too much and we could argue and throw things at you.

    If Locke has been key to the intended ‘plan’ – whether it was as the ‘pawn’ of Nemesis or the future ‘leader’ of the Others – and whoever knew that he was part of the plan: Jacob or The Other Guy….

    Then I guess I look at that scene where Locke looked into the ‘eye of the island’ when he and Smokey stared each other down and saw that as part of the test – part of everyone getting to see how devoted to the island Locke was, and how that experience would give him the confidence and insight to be able to continue on the path he was headed down.

    Oh dear. I think that was bumbling and not clear. I hope it made sense.

  26. That is an interesting way to rectify that they haven’t been judged: the Rules. But I do think Dabs point about what Ben was judged for is really valid.

    (And I hope it has nothing to do with laziness on the writers part…since that whole episode was focused on the parent-child relationship and revealing Ben’s heart, Widmore’s actions toward baby Alex, why Ben didn’t follow through on shooting Penny, etc.)

    Waitasecond. A thought occurred. It is interesting that the scenes that Ben saw had to do with what appeared to be the only ‘good’ parts in there – his actions toward Alex. Rather than showing every bad thing he’s ever done, it showed the one area that was where HE actually suffered and potentially had remorse.

    Maybe Smokey doesn’t judge EVERYTHING, just certain things…

  27. Are you going to throw little pickles at me?

    I’m not sold on the two smokies idea but I’m going to be playing the part of a guy who is dead set on it in the interest of discussions since it definitely is a possibility worth exploring.

  28. Or maybe Ben was actually telling the truth when he said that the purge wasn’t his idea. Maybe he wasn’t responsible for it. I go back again to my theory on the purge and how it really happened and I think now that instead of Jacob being responsible for it it was that other guy…

  29. Hmmmm…Ben telling the truth? Nemesis interfering to prove his point? (Or to rid the island of people making progress?)

    It would be really interesting to go back and revisit occasions where Jacob was the one as the authority or cause to particular events.

  30. I think one of the mysteries that hasn’t been accounted for in all the lists of mysteries is “What are the rules and who do they apply to?” They have been hinted at before between Ben and Widmore, which left us wondering about them.

    But they have taken on a new level of importance given this season and the finale.

    If the rules have anything to do with Free Will, which it seems as if they do, based on the “I need you to want you to do _______” (as said by Ben to Jack and Fake Locke to Ben) then how much the major players can interfere seems like that is why the rules exist.

    The idea that someone “ordered” the purge and it being EITHER jacob OR The Other Guy bothers me for some reason. Maybe because it is the kind of act that seems the perfect scenario where it was Free Will at play.

    It actually ties into what I’ve said about Richard earlier…that because he’s not really invested, he doesn’t intervene with the “How” something gets done…he just lets the leaders do what they think is the right way to accomplish something.

  31. (Every time I go to type “Fake Locke” I type: Facke, which I delete and try again, but I just realized it kind of works as a combination of the names. So if you see it in use, that’s who I’m referring to. Such a dork.)

  32. Interesting point about the line ‘I need him to want to do it” or whatever it was Ben said. I hadn’t equated that with the rules. Maybe they go beyong just killing… maybe the rules also govern when you can save a life.

  33. Oh please do. It’s so close to “frak” and other fun words like that.

    I just had a serious thought.

    I am so on the fence about Smokey and The Other Guy….are they the same but different? Are they completely different with no relation other than being an island entity?

    Okay, here’s the situation.

    Remember when Locke fell down the well, and Christian appears to direct him. “I told YOU to turn the wheel, John.” “You’re going to need to die…” “Say hello to my son.”

    All of those proved to be very important points for this whole thing to get accomplished.

    What just jumped out at me was the statement when Locke says, “Can you help me up?” and Christian says, “I can’t do that, John.”

    Isn’t this revealing? We think it’s because a) Locke needs to man up and do things on his own and b) because maybe it has to do with Christian being dead. But what about c) because the manifestation of Smokey and/or The Other Guy literally can’t touch people without consequences. And that is in opposition to the fact that Jacob CAN touch people, and his touch has a purpose. Hmmm. Something to consider. (Keep it clean Highbrow, keep it clean.)

  34. Hmmm… obviously Kim, you’re already thinking all of the unclean things I could add to my comment here so I’m not sure I really need to actually type them out…

    So you’re saying that Jacobs better half is a homophobe? Couldn’t help it.

    I like what you’re saying though… about touching… ha ha! No, really… Jacob seems to like touching everyone and there’s something special about it. I bet when that other guy touches people it’s just creapy… like on the subway in Tokyo…

  35. When they touch someone that person becomes part of thier group and may be bound by the rules from that point on. Maybe touching is how Jacob stole Ben’s innocence (ha ha ha ha ha) and saved his life.

  36. You tried, but just couldn’t quite handle it could you? πŸ˜‰

    I almost wonder if when there is a manifestation, whether it is Smokey or The Other Guy, that if they do touch someone, they cease to appear as the manifestation and reveal who they really are.

    Or it is part of the rules. But that would make it interesting that Jacob can physically interact, but The Other Guy and/or Smokey has limitations.

    All these rules. And consequences. It’s becoming more linear and structured around something…

    I’m not a very good chess player because in that particular game, I can’t see three or four moves ahead on both sides. It’s feeling like those skills are needed for this whole thing.

    It would seem that Richard’s purpose, whenever Jacob made him the way he was (careful Highbrow, no “The Jerk” references intended) …whew, okay, however Jacob has needed to use Richard could be for this very scenario where Richard has now interacted with Facke, Locke, Jack, Ben, Ilana, Sun (who will help sway Jin for the right side) and the various leaders of the Others for the last century. Richard’s role seems like it becomes that much more important from here on.

    Babbling again. It’s the medication.

  37. Well, I think Flocke has been touching people… so I don’t think that touching reveals the truth about them…

    I think it’s more along the line of when Ben was healed. I think he was healed through Jacob’s touch. Meaning that Kate, Jack, Hurley, Sawyer, Locke and Sayid are Others, even though they don’t know it, because of their earlier interaction with Jacob. Maybe that’s the loophole. Jacob decides who he gives that gift to and only those people are able to kill him. So Flocke needed to trick one of them into doing it. Ben was touched by Jacob, even though we didn’t see it, when Richard brought him to be healed.

    So when they’re touched by Jacob they become his people and Jacob can only be killed by one of his own. Maybe the other guy avoids touching people in order to prevent himself from giving others that kind of power to use against him.

  38. Who has Facke touched? When Ben wanted help out of the underground temple, didn’t he hand him a rope? Or am I imagining that? I honestly don’t remember. And it doesn’t really matter yet. Minor detail, but interesting to think about.

    That is interesting if Jacob’s touch makes them Others. I wonder if it’s bigger than that though…more like his chosen people…or better yet, his tribe. πŸ™‚

    What I really like though is the idea if the other guy doesn’t touch as to not give power away. That would work overall into the theme of power struggles as it is.

  39. It also explains why he’s so bitter. He’s been on that island how long without touching anyone? I think someone just needs to get laid.

  40. Look at what you’ve done to my really genuine thoughts on some of the rules and clues and scenarios that distinguish what Jacob and The Other Guy can or can’t do. πŸ˜‰

    I know, if I just hadn’t brought up touching…we might have actually kept on track.

  41. Surely I’m not to blame for this. We’re still on track… you asked who Facke has touched and I gave a bunch of examples… Sun, Richard, Ilana, Japanese Schoolgirl, Ben, etc…

    I think you’re just getting frustrated because we accidently figured the whole thing out eight months early…

  42. We should move on from the touching conversation.

    Tonight is your night for ‘re-watch’, right?

    Now you’ll be paying attention to physical proximity.

    And if the knife that Facke gives Ben is similar to the knife that ticked Richard off a few seasons ago. That’s another question/discussion point. I wonder if Jacob instructed Richard what items to offer kid-Locke. (Yeah, that’s a shout out to one of your infamous celebs over there.)

  43. I always pay attention to physical proximity. I’m divorced, what else am I going to do?

    Excellent point about the knife! I wonder what that would mean if it was the same knife…

  44. So now are we getting to why you are cynical?

    Okay, but the knife thing first. On my personal list of mysteries that I hope to be resolved…or where we’re given just enough information to make a connection that feels like we’re resolving something…that scene with Kid Locke and Richard and the items is one of them…

    I have always thought that the knife is what ticked Richard off.

    If it is the same knife that is ultimately used to kill Jacob, I would think that it makes sense as to why that would bother Richard.

    But that was also, what, approximately 1966 or so, and if Richard only has limited information…would that mean that Jacob suggested the ‘good’ and ‘wrong’ items?

  45. Maybe that’s time traveling Richard from the Post-Dead-Jacob era. He would recognize the knife. Locke picking that knife could mean that the other guy has had some kind of influence on Locke all along…

  46. hi k-dawg!

    i was really interested at the part where illana and bhram turned up near the end.

    they asked richard the elusive question; “what lies in the shadow of the statue”
    to which he is quite happy to comply. he answers their question.

    as far as weve become aware, its quite a small amount of people knew the Aanswer, and we know by richard impressions that he doesnt know illana and bhram.

    this i found interesting becuase, he knows the answer to the question, and so do illana. they both have knowing jacob in common, yet they dont know each other.

    im not sure where richard lies in these terms.
    illana knew of richard as she was told, but didnt know who he was.

    could we deduce that illana and bhram area purely off island connection with jacob, or are they from adiffrent time and richard and them selves forgot who each other are?

    i dunno, just found it interesting!

    x

  47. Okay. Lets unpack this for second.

    Richard made the comment to Jack in 1977 that he’s been to visit Locke three times, and nothing has seemed special about him.

    We could assume that meant 1) at the hospital 2) in the house with the objects and 3) (speculation) in high school when the guidance counselor gives him the information about the science project and recruiting him to be a science geek.

    At first we were thrown off by Richard not aging and thought he was time traveling. Then it appears that Richard wasn’t time traveling and actually moving through time in a linear way and the non-aging thing is a ‘curse’ perhaps.

    So now you present that Richard could be time traveling (again) but that would imply that the three visits that he references to Jack in 1977, are not the three visits we’ve seen.

    Does it also imply somehow that time travels begin again now that Jacob has been stabbed and kicked into the fire pit? Or are they just from RIchard.

    (I’m just helping you develop this idea by asking a zillion questions. πŸ™‚ )

  48. I forgot that Richard had said that so strike my last comment.

    Richard may have been told the significance of each of those items and he freaked out because knife equals bad. But now I’m confused. Why would Richard ask Jack about Locke in 1977 if he already knew from that test that Locke was bad? Has Richard had a crisis of faith? Was he tricked into going against Jacob like Ben was?

  49. Hey L-C from across the pond!

    It does seem like Jacob bridges the connection point, but there is no recognition otherwise between the two groups.

    Are Ilana and Bram off-island Others? To suggest that opens up the possibility that Jacob had them off-island for his own purposes, similar to whatever he has made Richard to be. To think that they could be from a different time in general, is intriguing.

    Since both of you (L-C and Highbrow) are bringing this up in different scenarios…one question that has been nagging at me is this:

    Are we done with time traveling aspects of the show/the island? Did the O6 going to the past serve a purpose that will now be resolved if the Losties from ’77 make it into 2007?

    So far, we’ve only seen the Losties + Faraday, Juliet, Miles with the ability to time travel. And so far, their abilities were all seemingly very purposeful.

    Just another set of random questions…courtesy of my slightly medicated, stuck at home, brain.

  50. I think the scenes from 1977 were a prequel. We got answers about how certain things came to be the way they were and we saw exactly what the role of the Losties was on the island… I think the Pasties are coming to 2007 and after that I think we’re done with time travel.

  51. Well, as you will see when you re-watch…

    Richard was in a predicament. He had been visited by Locke in 1954…Locke told him stuff that made him appear to be very important. But based on that ‘object test’ Richard said that Locke wasn’t READY. Not necessarily bad, but not ready. So he kept trying to see when Locke would be ready, but it wasn’t working out. So I think he’s not necessarily having a crisis of faith as much as very confused how, based on his perception, Locke is supposed to become the leader.

  52. Well, it seems that if Jacob sent Richard to test Locke and he saw the warning signs (obviously, since he freaked out) then he must be going at least a little against what Jacob has told him by helping Facke.

  53. But I don’t think that Jacob ever intended on trying to stop Facke, so if anything Richard ‘helping’ him actually is probably more bothersome and confusing to Richard at that point. Jacob knows what’s coming and isn’t interfering.

  54. hi! sorry for the late reply! i had fags and brews to attend to.

    but ive been thinking. say for example illana and co are from a diffrent time to richard. but, they both have very close links to jacob. are we talking past or present.

    well, its speculated that richard came on the blackrock, so that was in the past.

    so if, illana and co were from the future, we would have to expect that they dont know each other.

    in the lates epsode, at the start, we see jacob with his ‘friend’, and they seem quite primitive. and we see what we think is the black rock. so if we presume that, this time, is richards era.

    now, illana and co we dont know their origins. and most of series five has been set in the past. and the latest episode is the most extreme part of the past.

    so i beg the question. why does jacob need people from the future, and why does he need people from the presant, and from the past.

    i think this is where locke comes in. the locke we see now, and ive been speculating this, has perhaps been somewhere we havent seen yet. this is why he is so forceful, and quite blase about finding jacob.

    inbtween all the flashing that went on, we see miles pointing at the statue, that was far in the relative past, and there was a quick flash. whats to say at this point, as locke flashed, he saw something, im not sure what, or gained knowledge, basically, the scene we havent seen yet.

    but above is pure speculation of course, and no fact to back it up.

    so yeah, perhaps the newer episodes will revolve aroud the distant past and far future.

    x

  55. L-C…good question…about why Jacob needs people from the past. I just don’t know if Ilana and Bram are from the future…mostly because we have seen Bram at least in the context of the ‘present’ and then there was a ‘flashback’ to the Jacob and Ilana scene in the hospital which didn’t necessarily look to be the ‘future.’

    But….why he needs people from the past (or we can at the very least say, ‘another time’) to serve some purposes seems like a valid question based on the observations of him intersecting with people throughout time!

    I’m still wondering when the Other Guy “became” Locke. That seems to be imminent to the storyline for Season 6.

  56. i see what you mean, but i dont think that ilana and co are not neccearily from the future, i think compared to richard they are. jacob perhaps needs a off island gorup, like a eligious sect. “what lies in the shadw of the statue?” it sounds like something youd learn from a preacher, jacob has maybe set up a sect in the past, and hes taught people about it in the future. im not sure.

    locke is still locke. although me and dabs, were theorising about him perhaps being on the island the whole time. the one that dies is for sure locke. the locke we see now is from a diffennt time. and i think this can be backed up perhaps if you follow the time line of the compass. if were talking time travel, then we musnt rule out doubles.

    but yeah, i neeed to think abou it more. i keep losing myself in my own thoughts!

    x

  57. Oh I see what you mean – they aren’t from the same time period as Richard. I agree with that. Gotcha.

    Yes, ‘ruling out doubles’ does seem to get quite a bit more important now that we have time travel compounded with an Impostor! We have now seen that there have been two bodies of Locke…so where and when this becomes ‘reality’ is where I have no answer.

    Keep thinking on it for sure! (I interrupt myself from what I was thinking about all the time.) πŸ™‚

  58. haha! me to, i open these doors in my head, and inside has a diffeent idea, leading me further away from the original idea! wowowowowow

    i genuinely dont think there is an imposter. my way of explaining that locke is not, is when he came back to the island with sun and himself and others ending up in a diffrent time to jack and co.

    i think there lies the answer. hes not been reborn as such. but its a diffent time! locke died in the past yes? but ends up in the future, becuase of the flash on the plane. i think this is why he is able to take ben and richard to see himmself under the plane and getting big ricky to go help him out!

    if that doesnt make sense im sorry, i need to make a better way of explaining it!

    x

  59. LC – I am having trouble understanding what you mean *sorry* πŸ™‚

    locke died in the past yes? but ends up in the future, becuase of the flash on the plane

    Are you saying that when 316 crashed they didn’t crash in 2007, but waaay in the future? But if this is the case, it still doesn’t explain how Locke is alive again.

    It is midnight here so maybe my tired eyes didn’t read your comments correctly… I may need to read through this again in the morning πŸ™‚

  60. Well i will agree that there definitely is two sides to the argument as to whether there is or isn’t an imposter.

    For the ‘no imposter’ side:
    Unless Nemesis and Jacob are omnipotent beings and know exactly what is going on, on the island at any given time, then there is no way for them to know the exact moment that Richard would need to come and take the bullet out of Lock’s leg. That is a place in time only the real Lock would be aware of right?

    And from what we have seen in the last episode, (and this has been pointed out before i think) if Lock were Nemesis, then why does he need Richard to take him to Jacob? I get that he needs Ben to be there, but is Richard necessary too? He could have just taken Ben and gone there on his own, unless of course he isn’t an impostor, and genuinely didn’t know where to go.

    On the ‘he is an impostor’ side:
    We have the all important conversation at the end between ‘Lock’ and Jacob, where Jacob refers to a loophole, something which only Nemesis could be aware of. The way in which they talk to each other also suggests that they are very familiar with one another.

    (and i realize we are way off the original topic, sorry kim :P)

  61. Ok, Kim. I just finished my re-watch of The Incident, Part I and I noticed a few things…

    1. I think Rose and Bernard are living in Jacob’s cabin. That might be something that everyone but me noticed the first time and I’m just an idiot.

    2. Facke does make physical contact with Ben in this episode. Twice, I think.

    3. Locke and Facke have big man-boob. If I were Facke I would have copied them a little smaller.

    4. Facke seems to have all of Lockes memories. It seemed before that he might not remember Locke stuff because Richard would say “Ben said he strangled you” and Facke’s reply is something like “that is what I recall”… like, uh, yeah… that’s totally what happened, sure… But when they’re sitting there when Ben was trying to have his alone time Facke says “did you see what’s behind you?”… it’s the hatch. Not just any hatch, he says, but the hatch to the station where they first met. He goes on to ask about the time when Ben took him to the cabin and asked him why he did what he did… so he has those memories. I don’t know if that was significan to anyone but me but I thought I’d throw it out there.

    Anyway, that’s what I got… I’m off to bed..

  62. right, sorry let me re-run mylast comment.

    simplistically, take the time locke is dead. jack puts his old mans shoes in the coffin etc.

    the coffin gets put back on the plane.on the plane there is a flash. and all of a sudden locke and sun and a few others are alive in what we believe is still the presant, following the same timeline as when the plane crashed.

    holy bulls excrament i need to go to work ill finish this up later!

    x

  63. L-C – I am curious where you are going with this. Especially the part that there is no Impostor…since that is the ultimate part of the “loophole” when it comes to the ‘battle’ between Jacob and The Other Guy.

    Vincentisthekey – No worries in going off topic. As you can see, it happens a lot and often times it’s actually pretty useful!

    So you said, “unless they are omnipotent beings, how would they know about Locke with the bullet in the leg?” But how in the world would Locke know the EXACT moment they are in and when that whole incident happened in the middle of all the flashing? I think that scenario actually gives more weight to the Impostor being someone who does have special knowledge of ‘when’ the island is. I won’t say “All-Knowing” though, because I do think The Other Guy is limited in his knowledge. I do think he needed Richard because he didn’t know where Jacob was.

    OR to tie this in to what Highbrow was mentioning, too…

    I think by taking over Locke’s identity, the Facke perhaps only had limited knowledge and memories…so he could remember some things that were significant to Locke, or significant in some other way, but he didn’t know everything…such as where Jacob resides and how to get to him. Perhaps that goes back to the rules.

    What I really like though is that the writers told us…and ultimately The Other Guy…in that opening scene. “I’ll be right here.” I think there are some answers that are going to have been that clearly right in front of us the whole time. πŸ™‚

  64. Highbrow…yes, I noticed how large Facke’s chest was. Maybe that was supposed to be one of our clues that it wasn’t really him. He needed a manziere.

    Tell me why you think R&B were using Jacob’s cabin. I noticed their ‘hut’ but maybe I was focusing too much on the love triangle to notice. And I was still laughing at Bernard’s “son of a bitch” line.

    I also was paying attention to the things that Facke knew and didn’t know (when I watched the second time) and the memories thing is pretty important, I believe.

    Perhaps part of the rules? To be limited in certain knowledge? He knew where the temple was, he knew “when” the flash would bring old Locke into the jungle with a bullet wound, he knew about the hatch, and he knew all the people. He didn’t know where Jacob was though and it made me wonder if The Other Guy EVER knew where Jacob lived.

  65. Well, Jacob said he’d be right there but obviously he left from time to time… he must have left in order to visit the Losties off island…

    The cabin. In the episode we see R&B and we get a pretty good shot of their digs… it looks exactly like the cabin only with a bunch of their crap all over the place… I watched the scene twice to see if we could get a shot of that distinctive tree but they didn’t show it from that angle… from this exchange in front of the House of R&B they go directly to Jacobs cabin. I think there’s supposed to be a connection made there between the two.

  66. Well of course he left, but come on…that was good writing! All along we’ve thought it was the cabin, but come the time for The Other Guy to kill Jacob, he really was right there. That was great!

    I’ll rewatch that scene again sometime. That would be really cool in a way if they were. Especially because of the allusion to the cabin being built by Horace.

  67. Maybe the cabin represents acceptance? Pacifism? R&B seem to be living the life on the island that Jacob says is the result of progress and his bud thinks is impossible for human beings to acheive.

  68. I agree that R&B are now characters that represent another perspective. Acceptance is the right word for them…

    It was exactly the episode to re-introduce them, based on the conversation at the beginning. And also based on the tension that was created between jack and everyone else…to change the past or not. If they were in the cabin, and the cabin has more meanings…then it’s interesting that it got (mis)used by someone else AND eventually torched.

  69. Yeah, R&B got a lot more interesting in the season finale (I still can’t stand the music though)… I wondered in a comment somewhere if they will flash with the rest of the Losties back to 2007… I’m a little torn on that one… on the one hand there’s “Adam and Eve” in the caves and if R&B is going to turn out to be A&E then they’re going to have to make their way to the caves pretty quick and not flash back to the future. On the other hand I just decided that I’m not torn on that one… Eventually they’re going to die and when that happens I see Jacob showing up to take them to the caves, placing the stones with their bodies. Therein lies the significance of the cabin. It represents proof of Jacobs theory that mankind can live peacefully…

  70. Sometimes I like it, sometimes I don’t. I go on random binges but otherwise it’s mostly Brit-rock or bands that have such influences.

    But about those two. I am really curious if they flash or not. If there are purposes in the flashes, it would seem that their story is ‘resolved’ – except for that part about if it’s them in the caves or not…and then how they got there. I was half expecting them to respond to the ‘bomb threat’ by moving to the cave, and then calling it a day.

    Considering that they were in ’77 at that point, I agree that it was probably later that the cabin was used by The Other Guy.

    I think the cabin has just become more interesting to me…to try to think about when it was built (if it was Horace), how it was used, when people started thinking that it was Jacob’s…etc. And how that little tapestry was stuck there on the wall.

    Interesting. I WILL need coffee for this.

  71. Yeah, I have to assume that Dr. Strange put it there.

    If R&B flash then I don’t see how they could be the ones in the cave. That’s why I don’t think they flash. It certainly does seem that their story is resolved.

    As for the bodies in the cave… they must have been placed that way…

    Bernard: Rose? I’m so bored. Why don’t we just lie down and die.

    Rose: My God, Bernard. You people, I swear!

    Bernard: You people? What the hell do you mean by that?

    Rose: You know what I mean… Come on, let’s just get to it.

    Bernard: Ok Rose. This could take a while.

    Bernard: Rose? How ya doing?

    Rose: Damnit, Bernard! I was just about dead then you have to go and ruin it!

    Bernard: Well, I’m sorry! Geez… I just get die… Maybe I should get up and get a snack…

    Rose: Bernard, that’s just going to make it harder for you to die…

    Bernard: Oh yeah… Wait, here it comes… ggggaaraggggrrrlrlrrgg….

    Rose: Bernard? Bernard? Oh, he’s dead. I’m going to get a sandwich.

  72. So about the cabin. I feel like I need to do some major reviewing of the show before I start talking about it, because it’s never been that intriguing to me.

    So the people we’ve seen connected (inside, outside) to the cabin: Locke, Christian, Claire, Ben, Hurley (and maybe R&B), Ilana

    The person who was implied to be connected to the cabin: Jacob, Horace.

    The things we’ve seen in the cabin: a rocking chair, table, a picture of a dog, a little tapestry with the statue image on it, a knife…? (what am I forgetting)

    The cabin has represented what we thought to be where Jacob dwells. The circle of ash has been a form of protection – keeping what is inside in and what is outside out, it would seem. Beyond that we don’t have any other explanation, right? s

    Have we ever seen or heard Richard mention the cabin?

    I’m wearing my Nancy Drew detective hat right now….can you tell?

  73. Hello, Nancy. I’ll be one of the Hardy Boys… I think we did a crossover at some point, right?

    The circle of ash… it was either to keep something in or to keep something out… I’m thinking it was keeping something out and that something was Captain Graybeard.

  74. Probably, anything goes here though, so we can say they did.

    Why couldn’t the ash work both ways? I swear Dabs wrote something great about the ash working both ways at one point, and it made sense to me.

    They made such a point of highlighting the ash in the finale that it seems to be pretty important.

    If it is to keep Greybeard out…that makes it even more interesting. Maybe Greybeard made the ash ring in the first place and it wasn’t Jacob. I dunno. I have no idea. I need to watch Scooby Doo and freshen up my detective skills.

    But seriously… has Richard ever made any kind of connection or statement about the cabin? Would that be worth figuring out as an indicator that the cabin was never Jacob’s?

  75. I do not recall Richard ever mentioning it. Why would he? So far he’s been asked to take someone to Jacob once and he went straight to the statue.

    The ash probably does work both ways actually… but it doesn’t work on everyone. People, no. Sean Connery, yes.

  76. I think I might have just responded to you via email instead. Maybe I stopped it in time.

    Here’s the thing that I said…The “cabin” references have obviously been a decoy for us viewers and a few of those Losties. Ilana even went straight there instead of to the statue. So she’s familiar enough with it…yet knew to go to the statue. Richard, who has been around for what, a century?, used the statue as Jacob’s dwelling. Does that mean give any more credence to the idea of ‘when’ Ilana is from and her connection to the island? Does that make any sense? There are some discrepancies in information that Jacob’s ‘helpers’ have. Unless Jacob sent Ilana there knowing that she needed to figure a few things out (like that Greybeard had been using it) and to torch it.

    There are way too many holes to make sense of it at this point, but now I am actually curious. Damn decoy.

  77. I don’t think it’s entirely a decoy. I think it was once Jacobs but later was taken over by Mr. Sinister who then used it to pose as Jacob for Ben and Locke.

  78. Maybe it wasn’t really Jacob’s… R&B lived in there and they reached the point Jacob was trying to convince Mr. Rope Belt (I’m running out of names) humans could get to. Maybe the gray ash was there to protect R&B from that other guy then when they died Jacob came and placed them in the cave. I wonder if Jacob might have come to visit them from time to time until they passed and that’s why Ilana and them went there first?

  79. BS just asked, “Does that guy have a name?”

    Gus, his friend he’s talking to said, “A lot of the internet people think he’s the Smoke.”

    Oh I’m just having way too much fun right now, all by myself. You have to listen to them. It really makes me feel like a dork.

  80. So in other words, no one has a name for him even though we all are apparently talking about it. (Which, I guess we have proved them right.)

  81. hi kimbo!

    your correct! i dont think there is an imposter, i really cant see that being the case. i think the locke we are seeing now, is a changed man. he was once a cripple. and then transported to a an island with happening from the weird to the wonderful.

    he seems cured of his neck break. then he starts flashing about time. this, if it were me would gradually frustrate me!

    i think locke, has becaome a new man. the locke we see is sick off whats going on. he has more purpose. and i think hes gained knowledge somehwere we havent seen yet, the missing scene i like to call it.

    and i also, think that locke has at some point seem himself. thats were the compass comes into play. and the fact locke was able to show richard and ben himself walking to the plane injured. i think at some point locke gave himself the compass, or even it might have been jacobs friend that we have seen. i need help with it, dabs seems to be at some sort of agreement with me, but it seems shes got the plague!

    the reason as i tried to mention above. for him being dead, and being alive also, is the loohole i think. the reason locked flashed onto the island with sun and o perhaps. its to do with the shoes! and him bein able to come back at a diffrent time. as pthers wnt to the past.

    its kind odd. i know, but i just really think that locke is locke,not fake, not the smoke monster. just a new locke!

    x

  82. Ok, Kim. I know you like to sleep until mid-day so I’ll just post this comment and wait patiently for you to show up πŸ˜‰

    I re-watched Part II last night… nothing really stuck out to me that I had overlooked the first time so I gots no new insights… I did get a screen capture of the knife and I went back and watched the scene with Richard and Young Locke in Cabin Fever… the two knives aren’t even close. The one Richard brings for his test looks like something he took from the galley on the Black Rock.

    It did kind of occur to me though, watching that scene and thinking about the origin of the compass thing, that Richard included the compass in the items, Locke selected it and Richard seems to think that it’s one of the correct choices. I don’t know what it means… maybe he just happened to pick it… or maybe he somehow knew that it was his.

    The combination to things that Young Locke picked seems to me to indicate to Richard that Locke is not chosen by Jacob to be the leader… and that he’s chosen by that other guy (assuming Richard even knows about him). So why does Richard go along with Locke? He sees Locke’s birth and notes the miraculous survival… then he visits the kid and gets this bad news but he visits again… Is Jacob telling him to do this?

  83. L-C…I know you and Dabs have talked about some of this before we even saw dead Locke in the box and the apparent “Impostor” Locke that many believe to be The Other Guy in the form of Locke. I kind of get what you are saying about it, but I kind of don’t. It doesn’t mean it’s not possible…but it will take a lot of explaining for my mind to wrap around the idea that the “Locke” who convinced Ben to kill Jacob is the same but different Locke, who just happens to be in the future alive because it’s a second version of him from another time on the island. It would make that introduction of The Other Guy seem almost pointless, right? Unless you are saying that he is responsible for creating the loophole that allows the existence of two beings despite if one them dies.

    I’ll stick with you though to hear it out and welcome all the ideas you bring to the table!

  84. Okay HB, so if I had to guess, that scene and backstory to Richard visiting Locke is pretty important. If we get a Richard-centric episode in Season 6, I truly hope that one is revisited.

    There are so many directions I could go in why I think it’s important, but one of the main things you bring up is basically “why would Richard keep pursuing Locke, or Jacob for that matter?”

    I think it’s partially accounted for in that Richard doesn’t have the full story, he never gets ALL the information from Jacob. In a way, it would seem that perhaps Jacob is letting Richard pursue Locke because it just plain needs to happen.

    So far, doesn’t it seem like Jacob lets things happen, even if they appear to be the ‘wrong’ thing?

  85. I meant to say, “Why would Richard keep pursuing Locke, or why would Jacob, for that matter?” — not to make it sound like Richard is pursuing Jacob. (NO…no no, not that kind of pursuing.)

  86. At first I thought you were saying that Richard was pursuing Jacob but then I figured you meant Jacob pursuing Locke. But maybe it’s Vincent pursuing the Smoke Monster.

    Jacob must be telling Richard something to keep him going… otherwise, based on what we’ve seen him discover about Locke he should have figured out that Locke isn’t anyone special. I wonder though if Locke would have made different choices on that test if Richard had tested him after his fall…

  87. But if you think about it…Jack actually kept Richard going. He said he visited him three times…so that ‘test’ encounter showed him not to be ready. The next encounter – the high school one, most likely – should have been right around the time of Jack saying that to Richard. But before Jack said that to Richard, three years to be exact, Richard had the encounter with Sawyer…that probably lent some credence to this unique group of people, which included Locke.

    So, in a way, Jacob helped orchestrate keeping Richard going, indirectly at the very least.

  88. I know that so many theories and question right now focus on who is good and who is bad.

    I think if we look into some of the past scenarios like this, in the light of knowing that we had these two entities ‘playing’ out their schemes…it makes it really interesting because it looks like in this situation we should know that Locke

    a) wasn’t a ‘real’ leader of the Others according to the standards set in place before him. So it was either ‘allowed’ to be the ‘wrong’ choice, or it was the ‘right’ choice because it ultimately created the ‘loophole’ that The Other Guy was seeking, or a mixture of both.

    b) there was interference that kept him on that path. The influence could be perceived to be Locke on his own, Locke as prompted by The Other Guy, or Locke indirectly prompted by Jacob since Jacob had a hand in bringing Locke and Jack together via 815 and this whole thing taking place. Or a mixture of all.

    Doesn’t it seem like everything is coming down to both ‘sides’ affecting everything?

    So then it goes back to Richard’s role. Is Richard only serving Jacob and only aware of Jacob? Because in a way, if Richard was only serving Jacob, then it would seem that The Other Guy should have a Richard-ish type counterpart.

    Wow. Look what a good night sleep can do. What a tangled mess of ideas.

  89. Jacob must have kept Richard going on purpose… Richard had all the reasons in the world to stop checking in with Locke BEFORE Jack told him not to give up on him… so he wouldn’t even have asked. I think that if Richard had gone back after Jacob had visited Locke and tested him then he would have gotten the results he was looking for.

  90. OHmygosh. Did you just try to talk about something as if “whatever happened” should have “happened” differently?

    I thought you didn’t speak destiny. πŸ˜‰

  91. no no no… I’m saying that Jacob has been keeping Richard going… but if he hadn’t been then Richard would have stopped a long time ago… before he even asked Jack about Locke…

  92. I know, I know. It just sounded like the closest thing you’ve said to “if it happened differently…” when usually you don’t even consider it because it’s not an option. We agree on this. And I see how you are using it as evidence that Jacob kept Richard going.

    But I wonder if Richard is sometimes left on his own. Especially if he is trapped in some service to Jacob…what else is he going to do?

  93. Yeah, that’s one debate we’re thankfully at the end of. All that’s left now is to see the season six premier and we’ll know if the past can or cannot be changed in Lost.

    Richard does seem to be on his own from time to time… or maybe most of the time… If he were in constant communication with Jacob on the issue of John Locke then I don’t think he’d have all those doubts he keeps showing us that he’s having…

  94. yoyo kimbo!

    i know that what you thinkim saying is a bit ‘diffrent’ shall we say.

    but i have to say that waht ive been saying doesnt render jacobs freind out at all. weather or not hes an accesory or not i think he is important.

    i know jacob mentioned the lophole to locke at the end and mentioned it to jacobs friend at the start. but i think if you lsten to jacobs tone of voice, he says it to locke as if, hes fascinated that locke found it, and he didnt let on as if he knew, if it is the imposter, that he knew it was him.

    locke says to ben, “why wouldnt you want to kill him”

    but why does locke want to kill jacob, whats his motive, and why ben? ben seemed easily manipulated becuase of his remorsefulness in the way hes led his life! locke i think.

    i can see why you and the brow think that locke is a fake and is perhaps the imposter, but i dont think that people from the past taking over other peoples bodies is likely? (and i mean that in the broadest sense of the word, considering all the hypathetical things that go on in lost)

    locke being from a diffrent time i dont think is too silly. i mean, locke out of everyone is the exception in the show. he was dead, and brought back tolife, due to the last plane journey.

    and i rember reading how interested you were in the whole, why the shoes thing? which leads me to think that there is definently loose ends here, ie, christian shephard, but thats something i need to think about.

    plus, when the last plane journey went ahead, we didnt see it crash, there was a flash, jack woke up in the jungle, with kate lyingon the rocks.
    locke ended up with sun and the rest. their is an exception here. im not sure what. but im sure the answer lies in “the missing locke scene” as i like to see. following his trip with te compass to seeing himself with richard and ben. and i think locke might ave something to do with clearing the ash ring round jacobs hut. perhaps a way of showing were he was at certian times.

    rambling now!

    also, great post, very intriguing!

    x

  95. I had to re-watch Cabin Fever because a few things were nagging at me in all this talk about Richard, the Cabin, and Smokey and ultimately, the battle between the two Guys and the apparent pawn, Locke.

    Cabin Fever is where Richard visits Locke off island while newborn Locke is still in the hospital and when Kid Locke is tested by Richard with the objects.

    But it’s also where we see ‘Horace’ direct Locke to find the cabin:

    Horace: “You’ve got to find me John. You’ve got to find me, and when you do, you’ll find him.”

    John: “Who?”

    Horace: “Jacob.”

    John: “He’s been waiting for a real long time, man.”

    Locke, Hurley and Ben were looking for the cabin, looking for Jacob to try to figure out what to do to save the island from the freighter people.

    Ben’s response to a newly inspired Locke after Locke returned from his ‘encounter’ with Horace: “I used to have dreams.”

    Doesn’t this conversation now seem like it was The Other Guy using Horace to direct Locke to find him in order to keep his plan in place of using Locke to ultimately get to Jacob, all the while, it first appears that it is for the benefit of Locke getting to Jacob?

    I wonder how many other scenes like this are out there.

  96. hi, sorry to put this in a comment space for your theory but you said you wanted to ask me some questions last night right after i logged off. sorry. what did you want to ask me?

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