Good & Evil/Black & White & Shades of Gray

What is our understanding of good and evil? What constitutes an individual being good or evil in our minds, and how do we make that determination? This is highly subjective, based upon our conditioning, moral, spiritual and social beliefs that have been instilled in us from early childhood. It is a matter of perception that is fraught with many gray areas that blur the lines of black and white.

We are a society that views things, in linear fashion. It is black or white, good or evil. However, the truth appears to exist, for the most part, in those areas, which are considered ‘gray’. Nothing epitomizes and highlights this more, than the characters in Lost. We have seen many different dimensions to them, and when we finally meet Jacob and his Nemesis, learn they are an extension of this duality of black and white.

The characters are rich in substance and have enormous depth. Throughout their journey we have seen some of them taking part in good and evil deeds alike. We have made judgements as to which we personally feel, represent good or evil, and who should be redeemed and forgiven, be it right or wrong. How do we really know for certain? How can we really make these assumptions, when we do not even know the criteria, with the exception of what our society and formalized religion has taught us. At the end of the day, are we judged by the sum toll of our actions, or, are we judged by one truly evil deed, or, one heroic act, or, weighed by a combination of both?

Many of us have already decided, that Jacob represents good and his Nemesis represents evil, black or white. Some of us are skeptical. That skepticism comes from the belief that the actions of Jacob or his Nemesis might actually represent the opposite of what we saw and heard, or, that there is some sort of subtleties hidden within the meaning, that could shake our belief system, in true ‘Lost’ style!

Not knowing what Jacob and his Nemesis are really attempting to accomplish, we are left to draw our own conclusions, which may or may not be accurate, based upon the limited information we have thus far, and our own ideals about good or evil, or black and white.

Throughout the seasons, we have been privy to evil acts perpetrated. Because we like ‘the losties’ it is difficult for us to accept that they may in fact be evil people. Having said that, we have seen these same people do things, which could be considered, good deeds, and see how they have merged their own dualistic natures towards a more acceptable, happy medium. We believe they have redeemed themselves.

We have also witnessed Benjamin Linus commit many acts that would have to fall on the side of evil, all the while stating that he was one of ‘the good guys’. The only good deed we ever saw Ben actually do was to save a young Alex from certain death and raise her as his own. However, was this more of what could be defined as a selfish and self-serving act on his part?

In the finale when Ben kills Jacob, was this an act of true evil, or, was it the act of a lonely, frightened, beaten and rejected man, who only saw himself in that moment, as the victim, and was being conned and manipulated by Jacob’s Nemesis?

This all leads us to Jacob and his Nemesis. Which one of them is right? Who is acting on behalf of the betterment of humanity, and who might be acting against it? In order to try and determine this, we must look at the duality of Jacob’s actions and words.

Jacob visited many of our ‘losties’ off of ‘the island’, and the very nature of his visits suggests a ‘duality’ in the meaning of his words/actions. We can surmise, that Jacob was nurturing his army of recruits for a very long time, to ensure they would eventually end up on #815, and that the ’06’ would eventually return to ‘the island’.

Jacob touches a young Kate, and suggests that she will never steal again. But, as we know, Kate did steal again throughout her life, and eventually steals Aaron to raise as her own child. Jacob presents a young Sawyer with a pen, which allows him to finish writing the letter to Anthony Cooper, which spawns his journey of revenge to find the man responsible for his misery, and eventually kill him. He tells Jin & Sun that their love is special and never to take it for granted, which we know they both did.

His visit to Jack, was to impart with him, the words, ‘I guess it just needed a little push’, which Jack takes quite literally. He became a man who pushed his will upon the people and situations surrounding him. It appeared that Jacob may have brought Locke back to life, and all he needed to tell a vulnerable Locke, was that he was sorry for what had happened to him. We know that Jacob knows Ilana, but we don’t know how he knows her, but she is willing to help him, without question.

We then have to consider the ‘later in life’ visits to Sayid and Hurley. Both of them were determined never to return to ‘the island’. Jacob’s visit to Sayid, either allowed for him to be saved from being struck by the same vehicle that hit Nadia, or to take Nadia away from him, so he would be more amenable for revenge, and secure his subsequent return to ‘the island’.

As for Hurley, he believed he must be crazy, and was somehow cursed and responsible for all that had happened, and he deeply missed his friends. Money didn’t make Hurley happy! Jacob was very persuasive in telling him that his supposed curse, and bad luck, and visions of the dead, were instead, a gift. He suggests, that if Hurley returns to ‘the island’, he would be happier amongst his living friends and the ‘dearly departed’.

This raises the question, was it their own ‘free will’ they were exercising, or, was their ‘free will’ being manipulated against them? There is a very fine line between the two. Free will, taken to the extreme, can be evil if it infringes/harms another to their detriment. The art of manipulation can be considered good, as long as it isn’t to selfish extreme or sole benefit.

Jacob was either grooming his army to fight the ‘good fight’ on his behalf, or, he was grooming a group of people, he could march into certain death for whatever desire. Jacob’s final words to his Nemesis were, ‘they are coming’. As Ilana, Bram and company are already present, was he referring to ‘the losties’?

As for Jacob’s Nemesis, was killing Jacob in the name of all that is ‘good’, or was it in the name of all that is ‘evil’? Or, was it a bit of both? I don’t think any of this will become clear until we examine the nature and meaning of duality, which exists in us all.

The translation of Richard’s words to Ilana, regarding ‘what lies in the shadow of the statue’ is, ‘he who shall save/protect us all’. A very dead John Locke currently ‘lies in the shadow of the statue’. Is he the one who will save/protect them all? If so, then from what or from whom, and to what end game?

Are you still certain that you know who or what represents good, evil, and black, white? Or, does the real truth and heart of the matter, actually lie in the areas that are ‘gray’?

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~ Contrary to popular misconception, karma has nothing to do with punishment and reward. It exists as part of our holographic universe’s binary or dualistic operating system only to teach us responsibility for our creations—and all things we experience are our creations. ~

124 thoughts on “Good & Evil/Black & White & Shades of Gray

  1. ah! with my glass of milk and cigarette in hand, i have thought about your wonderful piece.

    i agree with your sentiments about a linear view on black and white. its a very western thing. ive mentioned this before, but in many other countries, and in particular importance, egypt views black as a sacred colour of substance and mainly of good. and i guess thats more poignant due to the egyptian thing going on.

    i also dont know why jacobs friend has been branded “nemesis”, its completly unfounded, apart from the fact he said he wanted to kill jacob, but as you state in yuor post, what is that statement related to, perhaps jacobs done something terrible to him, but wont kill him for some other gain. or maybe they are as bad as each other?

    jacobs visits to the lost crew was very intersesting. the visits to the toddlers were in particular, i cant work out if they were spontaneous? but i dont think so, becsue he knew names. but if it wasnt spontaneous, then he must, as you mentioned, be grooming them, not unlike a paedophile, except with better intentions!
    but how can he just pick them out, or have known about them? think about that for a second, it wasnt spontaneous, yet he knew them, he must have known people around the young lost crew, to be able to pick the time to pick off his words of wisdom….

    on the same note, the part were you mention if jacob was trying to save sayid, or make him vengeful. the later is most certainly true, as you can tell by the guy driving away in the car, he sped off as if he meant to do it, so i dont see why if he wanted to save both he could have, which makes me believe he set the whole thing up for nadia to die.

    i think grooming is a great way to describe jacobs actions, but as i stated above id like to know for how long with the young ones? relations or families must know about jacobs plans, or was he just watching for a long time, observing?

    very interesting terresa. more to come!


  2. losts-columbo, it is a fact that many people view things in terms of black & white, and likely why the writers of Lost, have placed the emphasis on this very subject! There are too many references throughout the story line to ignore.

    While, the writers may have the viewers infer from the ‘parables’ that are drawn, I highly doubt we will be told that Jacob or his Nemesis are actually Cain & Abel or Jacob and Esau!

    I knew you would make the right connections with Jacob and ‘the losties’. There is a connection which we have been unable to make at present. I believe they were selected, but do not know the criteria for which they were.

    You definitely hit on a very important clue! That is observation! Herein, lies the other side of this great mystery!

    I think the instances with Sayid and Hurley are evident, in terms of the subtlety of the manipulation. The question is, does someone who represents goodness, actually kill an innocent woman, to further his plans?

    Also, does someone who represents good, manipulate a vulnerable Hurley into thinking he is better off on an ‘island’, that bore him no good fortune?

    These are the questions we should be asking ourselves, and we should be questioning our own beliefs about what is good and what is not.

    The automatic labeling of Jacob as good, and his Nemesis as evil, has caused me to question my own understanding of ‘duality’.

    I have many more thoughts on this subject!

  3. there has been loads of black and white refrences i agree, but whats not to say they just mean, not everything you are seeing here is black and white? the idea of white being good and black being bad, i feel is not perhaps the reason for things in the show, but perhaps it means not to judge things as black and white, good or evil, sometimes thinga arent what yo think until you look a bit closer.

    jacobs selection process must have been planned, as i said, it wasnt spontaneous, he almost knew too much, like john locke faling out his office, did jacob plan that?
    people have said maybe the lost crew were born on the island, so i guess that could work, but why take them off the island? so who knows.

    the thought of jacob being ‘good’ to me, personally, i wouldnt want to be his friend, i would give his fish hating friend on the beech a chance though, considering what i know what hes done, i would think jacob falls to the side of not being the ‘good’ one.

    i just dont yet, the ruling of his beeched friend being a nemisis is just unfounded in my eyes, no evidenc at all.

    more thoughts!


  4. losts-columbo, I agree that is precisely what the black and white references are.

    We should dispel any pre-conceived notions about black being bad, and white being good. Especially when it comes to Lost, we are not going to get an ‘easy’ answer.

    I think what is more important, which the writers are attempting to illustrate to us is, the ‘duality’ of the two. We all have dualistic sides to our own natures. We are a little bit good and a little bit bad. They key to which is ‘balance’ and harmony.

    I know what I saw in the finale, and I am skeptical. An actor with boyish good looks and affable charm was selected to play Jacob. We see the opposing views that exist between Jacob and his Nemesis (sorry, hate the term MIB), but do NOT know which side of the struggle they represent, whether it is good, bad, or otherwise.

    Jacob could very well be the one who is bad, and his Nemesis good! We only saw Jacob’s Nemesis manipulate Ben into killing him, which may have been a good thing, for all we know.

    I agree with your thoughts, and don’t expect Lost to give us any easy answers on this subject. They will keep us guessing, and pondering these aspects, until they are prepared to give us the answers.

    Jacob had intimate knowledge of ‘the losties’, and I would love to know why they were chosen by him.

  5. yor comments on jacobs aestetics are interesting to me, as i thought he was very type cast. maybe thats anohter way to further emphasise the whole following stereotypes and sayings and cliches? and not to judge things as you see them!

    i hate mib and nemesis, so i usually just say jacobs ffriend, or fish hater, or…emm…sheriff of notingham (fairly similiar)

    may i ask yo dabs, the duality part,whom do you think this is most important to? i see what yo mean by it, but do you think at some point we should see a perfect human being? not bad not good, just perfect? is that jacobs goal? after all he does suggest progress!

    what i mean is, what is the reason for the duality, or do you think that is what lost is trying to convey? no on the whole but in the charactors?

    sorry for the questions! ahah!


    ps, want a perfect human being, jump on the plane to scotland missy!

  6. Hmm, that is the question, isn’t it losts-columbo!

    Jacob was bringing people to ‘the island’ prior to ‘the losties’, and with the same results, as his friend pointed out. Perhaps, he was going for a different approach with ‘the losties’.

    Was he taking a group of people who were essentially leading non-productive lives, and who had bad tendencies, and bringing them to ‘the island’ and placing them under a set of extenuating circumstances, which in turn, would bring out their ‘other’ side to their nature?

    That could or might be considered, progress!

    I think they very nature of ‘perfect’, is somehow flawed, when it comes to humans. I think ‘duality’ is ever present in all human beings. And, balance is what is required. This is what I believe we are to infer from Lost.

    We have seen goodness from characters, and we have seen badness, and we have seen redemption, and change.

    Perhaps, what we are being told is, that nothing is as black and white, as we think it is. Therefore, it is only the shades of gray, and our interpretation that counts. If this is the case, perhaps, as viewers we will never reconcile these differences.

    PS: if you’re buying, I’m flying! lol

  7. well, it certainly is progress, but with the time loops, i thinkjacob perhaps finally couldnt control what he started, and ended up in his death! too much progress? or job done in jacobs eyes?

    nothing is balck and white with the charactors, and i got somebody to watch lost for the first time, and they said, they found it really interesting that the charactors where given cut away parts to their past, and i was thinking just like you, its not that black and white! but thats the beuty of hindsight isnt it? which jacob had!

    i finally wrote a serious theory/question, you insired me to do it, as id been thinking about it for a while!

    thanks big T


    ps id love to pay for the flight, but who would know if it would land…jacobs watching you…

  8. losts-columbo, I am convinced that Jacob knew right down to his death, what was going to happen. So, I would have to say, job well done!

    He was prepared, and was why he stated, “they’re coming”, and smiled! He totally anticipated all of the moves, like a master chess player!

    However, I wonder if he accounted for a ‘wild card’ in the mix?

    I commented on your theory! Well done, btw!

    PS: lol I’m surprised you didn’t suggest to place me on one of the wings! haha

  9. Superb stuff Dabs. Really interesting. In fact you have made me more sure than ever than Jacob is not what he seems, lol.

    I do agree with your comments on duality. It is very tempting to try and put our Losties and others in either the ‘good’ or ‘bad’ camp when in actual fact they should be in an as yet un-named camp 🙂

    Really though the more I think about Jacob, the more I think he is not a driver of free will necessarily, but he is a catalyst for some bad choices by the Losties.

    Great stuff as always from you.

  10. @ Losts-Columbo sorry if I am asking a really stupid question but I think I missed Jacob’s visits to the toddlers you mention. Could you point me in the right direction?

  11. Hey there Missus, thanks for your kind words!

    I am being most careful not to assign good or bad to anyone at present. Because of the nature of duality, I think we should be cautious.

    I wish I could say that I honestly felt that what I have witnessed from Jacob falls on the side of good, however I am questioning this, as you are!

    The sometimes subtle art of manipulation and free will can be a difficult call, based upon perception.

  12. Great post, dabiatch!

    You’ve put the whole black/white and gray shades issue into words perfectly! As always, by the way.

    In the bible, God chose Jacob as the father of his chosen people, the Israelites.
    However, Jacob needed to deceive his father to earn the firstborn right. The name Jacob even means deceiver! So, God didn’t just choose the best, most rightful men to lead his people. He chose men who committed great sins. But, those men belonged to the good side.

    That may sound a bit weird, but I hope you get my point. ‘Good’ (and ‘evil’) is indeed based on perception, but in the end, I think there is a clear line between good and evil, black and white.

    But that doesn’t make one man better than another. In essence, a ‘good’ man, isn’t any better than a ‘bad’ man. In essence, every man is inclined to do evil, at least, that’s what the bible says. And still, there’s the distinction between people who we find ‘good’ and who we find ‘evil’.

    Hope my thoughts are clear for you, cause I’m not that good at putting my thoughts into words.

    Well I’m off to bed, later 🙂

  13. stone, thanks so much for your comment! In addition to Jacob being known as ‘the deceiver’.

    You have completely grasped the meaning of this theory, and have made your words clear and concise! Contrary to your statement, your thoughts put into words, are perfect, IMO.

    I wanted people to take away from this theory, precisely what you have, and question their own meaning of the issues, placed in front of us!

  14. Dabs I love this theory It has complety changed my way of thinking about Jacob and MIB I first thought Jacob good MIB bad but now when I think everything jacob has done has been evil in a way like you stated. The only thing we have seem MIB do we can judge him on is get ben to kill jacob but if you think what if someone killed Hitler during the war ( I no I can’t beleve i’m compareing Jacob to Hitler either LOL ) would they be classed as a evil murderer or praised as a hero who rid the world of evil.

  15. Thanks Samson, I am glad this theory made you think! That is what it was designed to do.

    Without knowing the intent of the two men, we are left to examine what we saw and heard.

    Yes, I suppose if killing Jacob was a ‘good thing’, in the grand scheme of it all, we really don’t have a lot of insight into Jacob’s ‘frienemy’. And, it was Ben that did the actual killing, sans the kick into the fire pit! lol

    Glad this has made you think.

  16. Dabs, this is a gem of a theory. I had to print it out in order to give it the attention it deserves. I have actually read it several times and each time through it the last sentence of the first paragraph kept standing out at me. I understood what your point was but for some reason I kept thinking that there is another type of duality that actually encapsulates what you were driving at about perception having gray areas that blur the black/white duality. Then I had an A-HA moment when I spied something on my bookshelf. And here is what it is, another way to look at Lost is with the duality of Chaos/Order as presented in the ‘Principia Discordia,’ which was the book I spied on my shelf.

    There is a section of the Principia that discusses the different perceptions of Pure Chaos ( see pages 00049-00051 if you have a copy). Now when I talk about Chaos in this duality I don’t mean the kind of chaos we witnessed in the very first episode and every episode since; I mean Chaos in the form of unrelatedness. Reality is nothing but Pure Chaos (the gray areas in your theory). When we look at Pure Chaos we do so with concepts or ideas about Reality that we have picked up over time. The easiest way to look think of these concepts are as windows with grids on the glass. Everyone has their own grid that they observe the Pure Chaos through. People that have similar grids make up a culture. When we look through our grids, everyplace that the Pure Chaos lines up with the grid is seen as Order (White). What we see that doesn’t line up with our grid is disorder (black). Everybody views the Pure Chaos (gray) differently and sees a different arrangement of order/disorder. Conflict arises when one group of people tries to impose their grids on another group, but they all do not realize that they are viewing the same thing.

    On Lost the two grids that we are presented are Jacob’s view that Humanity can change its nature and the Adversary’s view that Humanity will not change. They are arguing about whose view of chaos is more valid when in fact both views are perfectly acceptable because they are looking at the same thing. Another good example of all of this is this site. Everyone theorizing on this site are watching the same show but end up with different views of the same thing (like the whole Smokey is/is not the MIB debate).

    Anyways, I’m sorry for the length of this comment but thought you would find it interesting. Thanks again for a great theory.

  17. Achalli, thanks so much for your insight! Don’t apologize for the length of your comment, as I quite enjoyed it!

    I am familiar with Chaos/Order theory, but not the book (Principia Discordia).

    How you explain ‘the grids’, is correct, in addition to Order/Disorder and Chaos. The Philosophers which have been mentioned on Lost, subscribed to many of these ideals, if not verbalized in these terms, the sentiments and ideals they share, certainly have been.

    Perceptions and views are subjective to each individual and are dependent upon a variety of criteria. There are no two people who will perceive a situation identically.

    Overall, on Lost I think we will be left to question in the end, who was responsible for trying to inflict their views over the other group.

    Lastly, I find this entire ‘experiment’, for lack of a better term, one that is being watched closely!

    Thanks again for such brilliant insight!

  18. mrssawyer, i cant see where i mentioned todlers, but what i meant was that the kids jacob visited, sawyer, kate…if i said toddler i do apologise.



  19. Very well written and very nice points on the duality, which I wont comment on as i think its been covered.

    as far as perfect human, we know there is no such thing, there was only one close to perfect man (as far as we know in this most recent epoch of history which we use to define our calender… Jesus, which coincidentally is the man who will save us all) and even he had some moments.

    As far as what makes a person good or evil, I believe it is one thing which was illustrated in ‘the cost of living’ and that is… Repenting for your sins and trying to not make the same mistakes or to become a better person. It seems When Eko is first visited by the smoke monster (and if you read the whisper transcripts on lostpedia) that maybe it is not sure… that Eko needs a little bit more time. Im basing this on the “he is trying here” line. probably not the case but who knows, what we do know is all Yemi(smokey) wants is for Eko to confess and repent to which Eko says he needs no forgiveness, he only did what he needed to survive and that he is in fact proud of killing the man to save his brother. Eko in his own words earlier told the story about the boy who beat the dog, and that the boy did not care about forgiveness only that he feared Hell, to which Eko said the Dog would be waiting for the boy (in hell)… so Eko should have known better.

    Lastly I believe there is no doing something bad to do something good… yes it is a gray area, however, evil is evil, whether or not you do something for the greater good has no impact, it is still a sin if it is a sin and you still need to repent. My feeling is that as long as you are truly sorry then it will be forgiven.

    I think you are right on about that god did not just always choose the most righteous… Saul who became the apostle Paul had a very bad past of persecuting Jews and later turned out to do much good. But… Saul saw the error of his ways and repented.

    As far as whether Jacob or Esau is the bad one… I think it is too early to tell.

  20. oh, Achalli… awesome point on the chaos/order thing.

    and losts-columbo… nice pic, skateboarding is not a crime!

    and nice theory D.

  21. Holdem Caulfield, thanks for your comment and kind words!

    I agree with your statements about repenting, and truly being sorry for ones transgressions.

    I think in terms of people agreeing on certain aspects of evil, where they can all agree, that it is unquestionably a case of pure, unadulterated evil, than you are correct.

    However, in most cases, pure evil is hard to define, especially if the acts, are isolated incidents.

    My religion tells me that many things are sins, so I cannot judge from that alone. I think most people would agree with that!

    I agree with you, that it is too early to discern who is good and who is not. And, we have to be prepared that it all may come down to our own perceptions of such.

  22. thanks, I also wanted to say that maybe Jesus is not the ‘only’ man but the most known, but don’t want to leave out mention of people like the Dali-Llama, Gandhi, or to imply Christianity is the only religion…
    muslim, budhism, or any others I have left out, i believe share most of the same messages and it is possible one savior is just the form ‘god’ sent that person in to appear to a certain group of people, even possibly at a certain time.

    i guess this is the ‘grey’ area of religion/spirituality lol.

  23. Holdem Caulfield, it’s nice of you to include all religions, and would agree with your sentiments.

    I think this is part of the reason, why the writers of Lost, may never get too close to religion, in the sense they do not wish to offend anyone.

    I did find it interesting though when the smoke monster judged Ben, that he only judged Ben on his willingness to repent for what happened to Alex.

    The smoke monster didn’t seem to care about all of the other people Ben had killed! That’s a hmm, kind of a moment! I guess that is another gray area! lol Anyway, I digress.

  24. Wow, Dabsi, great theory here!

    Ok, first off, I love the possibilities you bring about in questioning Jacob’s motives for his off island encounters.

    Every one has a possibility for speculation upon what he is truly trying to achieve in getting the Losties to the island.

    Ilana’s relation with Jacob baffles me, and actually makes me appreciate her character more.
    I always felt, and mentioned, that she very well could have been somehow from the ancient culture that is prominent with the islands past.
    The word “Ricardus” alone brings a question of her origins to a higher plane.

    You have taken my view of the grey area and made me think more about the possibility of Jacob not being the “good” one, if that is truly the correct term for what either of the two men (he and MIB) are.

    I have similar thoughts toward the situation previous to reading your theroy, and it now makes it even more difficult to label anyone truly good or evil, knowing the small amount of information that we have been given about them….
    Great job on making us think about that!

    OH, and you know how I feel about Locke!

    What a great idea presented in John Locke, the real one, being the answer to the question, “What lies in the shadow of the statue?”!!!

    All around great “thinking” theory.

    I love how we have to not just read and understand what you are giving us, but actually put it into a perspective so that everyone must compare their ideas, to another you have presented.
    It is easy to come out and hand us answers to questions, but to connect the dots all the while…phenomenal.

    I can tell you have big ideas on these subjects, and cannot wait for more input!

    Again, great job, and keep making us think, its the only way to understand someone elses perspective, and to understand the
    “true ‘Lost’ style” that constantly fools us all!!!

  25. Thanks for such a great comment, AES. This theory was burning in me since the finale, but I had to keep persisting and going through and examining the entire scenario, before I could commit it to paper.

    I posted what I think is going on pertaining to ‘duality’, but it just doesn’t end there. I think there is much more to those aspects as well, but need to think that out further too! That should give us some sort of frame work and reference to follow to prepare us for season 6.

    This theory, should help us to understand the motivation of the ‘two players’, and examine their roles in ‘the island’s’ activities.

    They were not present to our viewing eyes, and that may just change how we perceived certain information that we were once certain of.

    As John Locke is laying there dead, I am not expecting for him to remain there. Maybe, he’ll gets his resurrection this time around!

    I wanted this theory to make people think and to question what they saw. The information cuts so close, and makes it a difficult call.

    I trust Jacob’s frienemy more than Jacob at present, but don’t think I’d want to sit around the campfire toasting marshmallows an singing kumbaya with him, either! lol

    Lost is smart. They couldn’t possibly hand us such a juicy finale, and not throw in a great big monkey wrench into it!

    Again your comment is inspiring!

  26. Dabs, very well written and thorough theory. While I definitely see that nothing is purely black and white, I don’t quite agree with all of your thesis. I think that by eliminating the possibility of pure evil, we lower the standards of humanity a bit too much. I believe that all people have in them the capacity for good and evil, and whether they choose to do good or evil is ultimately their free will. It’s what makes us human to have the capacity to see all sides and make, if not the purely “good” choice, then the lesser of 2 evils. I think all of the Losties fall in that camp. They are all flawed characters who have committed many unsavory acts, but are being given the chance to change, and redeem themselves, to go over to the “good” side, if you will. And you are certainly correct in that we don’t know between Jacob and Black, which side they are on. We’ve seen since the beginning of Lost that our initial impressions are not what they seem to be on learning more.

    BUT, I also believe that there are people who are either born, or are made purely evil. For example, Hitler, Pol Pot, unrepentant murderers (think Jeffrey Dalmer or any of a number of pedophile/murderers), Kim Jung Il in Korea, and Achmadinajad (sp?) in Iran. These folk, whether by an accident of birth, or corruption in their childhood/youth, are essentialy “bad seeds” and have gone to the purely evil camp, and no amount of moral relativity can be accorded them. For you see others who have gone through the same or similar experiences and have not allowed those experiences to corrupt them. It’s all their choice. Which brings us to the free will/destiny theme of Lost–as others have posted, are these the two sides mentioned in the war that is coming???

    Anyway, great post and great comments, everyone!

  27. imisscharlie, I am in agreement with you regarding what defines pure evil.

    I am not attempting to eliminate it at all. I am not sure how I left that impression.

    I mentioned that we as people are attempting to apply what we have been traditionally taught through society, religion, and our own set of moral values to try and understand Lost.

    You are 100% correct, IMO about the people you mentioned above, are clear cut cases of what epitomizes inherent evil.

    I don’t think the same real-world philosophy applies, however to Lost. The writers are making it fairly difficult for the viewers in terms of ‘labeling’ the characters. It would appear that the duality of their natures, is what is being highlighted, along with redemption factor.

    I hope that clarifies it a bit better.

    Great comment!

  28. This is brilliant, Dabs! Very nice!

    It is extremely interesting what and who Jacob is relative to everybody else when you put it like this. I can see now that it is very possible that Jacob could have manipulated the whole thing, which starts to put MIB in a different light. I have to wonder now if one of the main ideas the writers had in mind when creating Lost was “Things aren’t always as they seem.” The writers have given us alot of info pointing to Jacob being good, however when you twist it around a bit as you have done, the opposite would make sense. And I think we all know how much the producers and writers love to lead us to believe something and then throw in a twist! 😉

    Again, very nice Dabs!

  29. Dharma Dancer, thanks so much for your comment and kind words. I am not sure which way this will all play out, but at least we are anticipating that things may not be what they seem!

    The point of writing this was, to shed light on this whole ‘duality’ situation!

    That, and I don’t want the writers to get ‘the jump’ on us, once again! lol But, I’m sure they have a few other tricks up their sleeves!

  30. Glad you liked it Dabs. the Principia Discordia is kind of hard to find in bookstores but you should be able to get it online. It’s a fun read. I first encountered it while reading the Illuminatus! trilogy and originally though it was something made up just for that book.

    As to the Freewill question I just want to share with you that I believe that even though as humans we have frewill most of us are very susceptiable to manipulation of it. That’s why advertising works so well. On Lost we have seen time and time again how easily people can be manipulated. We have also seen that some people are very good at manipulating others (Ben, Sawyer, Cooper, and even Hurley). Let’s be thankful Ben isn’t a politician, could you imagine?

    One comment on the duality debate. I’ve been thinking lately that Ben and Locke are essentially the same person (not in the way that the Adversary is). They are both men who as a child had no control of there situation at all. As adults Ben has found something that he took control of (the Others and the Island) and Locke is searching for control (and finds it on the Island). The only real difference is how they react once that control starts to slip away. Ben does anything to keep the control at the cost of everything else while Locke takes a more democratic, let’s include everybody approach (although he will go that extra mile when need be. I’m thinking Naomi here).

  31. Achalli, I really enjoyed your comment and the information you provided. Do I smell a theory here?

    Another fine member that I am aware of on this site has just finished the Illuminatus, which I understand is a wonderful read, albeit lengthy.

    I have been looking at the Chaos Theory and Determinism, and see some similarities which seem to fit in with the story line as well, in addition to the philosophers names Lost has given shout-outs to.

    I completely understand what you are saying about Locke & Ben. I have long noted a seemingly ‘running theme’, that some characters seem to off-set others. I feel there is some connection with all of the ‘duality’, but haven’t made it yet.

    The most interesting thing about free will is, that while we are granted this, we are given no guide lines to follow. It is completely left up to sole discretion. The line between free will and manipulation is, a very fine one, and sometimes so subtle it slips by us.

    You’re right about Ben! The makings of a true politician! lol

    You are right about how Ben & Locke differ in their approach to how they handle ‘loss of control’.

    When it comes right down to it, anything which strikes fear in an individual, makes them very unpredictable, and potentially dangerous.

    The unfortunate part about that is, like a self-fulfilling prophecy, ‘what you fear, you will draw near’. You experience even more of what the worst of your fears are.

    Part of what fascinates me about Lost is, it gives us the opportunity to delve into the human psyche, and society as a whole.

    I hope we will have the opportunity of reading some of your thoughts on these matters, in the very near future!

  32. Hey, anything else notwithstanding, you do bring a lot to this site as evidenced by the number of discussions your theories generate. Namaste.

  33. Hey Dabs, maybe you can answer a question I posted. No one could or would answer for me. Ben takes a box out of an air duct at 10:45 of The Lie. Did we ever find out what that was?

  34. Illuminatus is a lengthy read Dabs but well worth it. At times Lost seems a lot like that book in regards to the amount of information is thrown at us and with the way the story jumps (especially with the flash forwards and most recently the time jumps). Like I mentioned before that is the book where I first encountered the Principia Discordia, which is the ‘bible’ of Discordians. Your right on the assumption of an up coming theory. I’m kicking about a way to explain Lost, or at least parts of it, through the Law of Eristic Escalation found with in the Principia. This law basicaly states Imposition of Order = Escalation of Chaos. I think this would fit in with a lot of aspects of the show.

    As to fear, I feel that it is what drives us all. When you really boil everything down it is fear of the unknown that unnerves us. So we set out to understand what we are afraid of in order to better ourselves. Even though we don’t realize or aknowledge it, fear is what has always propelled the human race. We were afraid of the dark so we discover fire to dispel the darkness. We were afraid of being cold so we learned how to make clothes and repel the cold away. Unfortunately some people have learned to capitalize on other’s fear and use it to control them. This is the true power of the Smoke Monster, it utilizes a lot of scary animal like sounds and harsh mechanicle sounds to stunn it’s prey. It presents itself in a frightening way so that people are literally stoped in their tracks as they try to understand what they’re looking at. So I guess that you could say that another duality presented in Lost is that of fear/courage.

  35. Achalli, I have been told that the trilogy is 1100+ pages. The last book I read of that length was The Stand, (original version), and devoured it.

    I am also a ‘die-hard’ fan of The Illuminati, so no doubt I would enjoy it, especially if it pertains to Lost in any way. Thanks for the recommendations!

    I will certainly do some research on the law of Eristic Escalation, so I am prepped!

    Fear is the driving motivator in humans, unfortunately. Fear is darkness, that light has not shone into previously. When it is encountered, one should step back and examine what the fear is actually trying to tell them.

    Most of the time, we find out, that what we thought we were initially afraid of, is actually being masked by a much deeper fear.

    Seeing our fears for what they really are, and acknowledging and embracing them is a gift to ones self. And, by allowing light into the deepest corner of our fears, helps us to dispel them.

    It’s a great analogy, but much more difficult to achieve. lol

    I hope I didn’t bore you too much, with a little philosophical divergence. lol

  36. sorry for being nosey dabs, but i just had a thought, reading your a nd achalis comments, were you mentioned fear, and letting in light in the croners of fear.

    well, perhaps, there are no corners of fear in jacobs cranium. Perhaps he has no concept of fear and morals perhaps? such as the way he let nadia die, and not fearing ben killing him, and more so giving him a choice.

    i dont know why hed be this way but just a thought!


  37. losts-columbo, you are not being nosy, and are welcome to involve yourself in any conversation!

    You raise a very good point about Jacob! You are right, he appeared to be completely fearless.

    Perhaps, you are correct in saying that these things simply don’t apply to him!

    If, Jacob is a ‘deity’ of some kind, he would be resonating on a much higher plane, than human beings, and would not be confronted by ‘fears’ or the other things that apply to humans.

    It is a case of the old adage, ‘knowledge is power’. And, I think he has that power!

    Great thoughts as usual!

  38. Thats a great thought Columbo…outside the box as usual with you.

    I dont know though, if its Jacobs ignorance to the concept, or just his understanding of the true perception of life and death…

  39. haha! thanks teresa!

    i meant to say, rather than fearless, but almost emotionless, like he couldnt understand bens agony of life, when jacob said “what about you?”, sayd in a kind of dulsit manner, as if, i dont know what its like to practically kill my daugher for somereason!

    eather or not he is emotionless, or weather he just chooses or ahas grown to be like this threw his many years of living, is another question i guess!

    you must use the whole quote dabs, knowedge ITSELF is power! but i suppose the good life is ispired by love, and guided with knowledge! haha!


  40. Nosey skater boy, lol….

    Seriously though, I dont comment on your…well..comments much, because they speak for themselves…

    But this one for some reason is making me again rethink the idea of Jacob as good or evil.

    I like the idea that Jacob is oblivious (for whatever reason) to the pain and heartache that someone feels when witnessing such a scene.
    It can be looked at as “evil” by those terms, but can also be viewed as “good” with an understanding that there is more than just physical life as we know it…lol, well, I guess this goes right back to the original idea of duality posted by you Dabsi…

  41. losts-columbo, that raises another good question regarding Jacob’s emotions. In the case of Ben he appeared to be rather cold-hearted to Ben’s situation.

    This was another tell-tale sign for me, that he was uncaring. I suppose there is more than one reason for that, but I interpreted it, that he didn’t care. He almost appeared to be selfish in that instance.

    Anyone with any humanity, would have been able to show empathy for Ben, albeit small. God is supposed to be all-forgiving, so that tells me who he isn’t!

    You are right again, the good life is inspired by love!

    “love is all that matters”

    lol back atcha!

  42. haha! now your being nosey a.c.e! haha!

    just what io forgot to mention aes, it comes back round to duality!

    i dont think jacob is oblivious, but perhaps his doings, are unimportant to him, human life, perhaps holds no feeling to him, unless it involves progress of course!


  43. teresa, love is great i have to admit! but none more sincere than the love of lost and food!

    i think jacobs comment with ben, was precisely an answer to his progress theory. ben is no longer progress to jacob, therefore doesnt feel any sympothy for him, in fact, i bet sympothy never even crossed his mind!


  44. Well put…

    I like the idea that physical life means nothing to him.

    He helped John at his time of need, possibly even bringing him back to life after the fall…

    He obviously knew about 316 going to crash, and most likely 815, and had no problems sacrificing the lives of others on the plane to get what he wanted…

    And most importantly, he knew MIB had found the loophole, and didnt fear his own death.

    I think that the simple idea that Anti_Locke is MIB goes to show that a persons physical persona is nothing more than a device that can be used to achieve goals on a higher plane…

  45. losts-columbo, Jacob is one cold cookie IMO.

    In view of this conversation, I now have more reason to be skeptical about him! lol

    Who loves progress??

  46. AES, you also make very good points on this!

    What could be greater than the sacrifice of human lives?

    You may be right, that we are not seeing the goals on a ‘higher plane’.

    I think there are numerous ways we can look at the actions of these two!

    Great thoughts guys!

  47. i just think that jacob made it patently obvious that he didnt cafre what happend, as in peoplecome and go as his friend said, hes only bothered and interested in progress!

    im not sure about jacobs fiend being the new locke, it doesnt seem right, i dont see why jacob wouldnt have known, but, i suppose jacob might not have know that locke was deceiving richard and ben, why wouldnt jacob see this?
    thats why im not convinced that locke now is jacobs friend. i thinkwhen he aid he wanted to kill him, what he really meant was that he wanted to be in control, and do things his way; to have his time on the islands ‘thrown’ so to speak.

    and dabs, the person who loves progress is most certainly jacob!


  48. I have another thought about Jacob’s frienemy!

    He hated Jacob for his ideals about progress, and from what we have learned as humans, that progress is not a good thing, necessarily.

    If that extends to humanity and human nature, than it could be considered advancing the human race.

  49. losts-columbo & AES, I think we have solved that mystery!

    Jacob loves progress and doesn’t care about humanity as much!

    Jacob did know about his friends plan! he prepared for it, and saw it as all out war between them. I can’t see that he would sacrifice himself, unless he was 100% certain that this war could be won without him!

    I think he also has found a loophole!

    I’ve been saying 2 John Locke’s will ‘duke it out’. lol

    AES, brilliant observation! It could very well be to the decline of man. However, I do have faith in my ‘losties’, to rise above it!

  50. Whoa…whoa…whoa…

    lol, you are now diving into a territory that I cannot begin to discuss at this moment, lol…

    Actually Dabsi, you may have just with that line, helped me wrap up a theory I have put A LOT of time into…

  51. Glad to hear that AES!!!

    I have missed our conversations because so much comes from the discussions!

    I am also glad that a few other ‘fine minds’ have joined in, also!

    Thanks for your insights, losts-columbo!

  52. Honestly Dabs, you know what I am referring to, and I do have some “off island” chores to take care of…but I promise, I will be back for more on this later…great conversation, I hope I dont spoil by leaving, but I will return…

  53. i see what your saying, but we say for instance jacob had no care for huanity itself, and he wants progress, it must have to be all about the human race.

    what i mean is, for him to have progress, and for him to achieve what ever he wants to achieve, he will at some point have to care about humanity, otherwise hes never going to know when to stop is he? and its not as if theyre from another world is it?…

    i guess that adds to yuor question a.e.s, know matter what he does, when does he knwo its enough?

    and dabs, you know i with you on two john lockes, and that im still convinced locke gave himself the compass!


  54. losts-columbo, I know you are with me on Locke! Yes!

    I guess it might be easy for Jacob to place progress before humanity, especially if he’s been at it for a long time!

    Again, it comes back to power. And, maybe ‘power’ has run amuk!

  55. losts-columbo, one more thought on this whole Jacob thing! Recall Ben saying how Jacob was opposed to technology?

    Perhaps, we can then take from that, that it was not Jacob in the cabin, but his friend!

    That makes more sense to me!

  56. i hateto do this dabs, but my knowledge of the cabin is very thin, you know i havent seen all the episodes yet! but i promise to get back to yuo on this!

    the only thing i did wonder about the cabin is, why would anyone live i it let alone jacob! im not sure if this adds up yet, but for some reason i have a sneaking suspicion that the cabin is alot to do with locke, hence the hunting knife holding up the picture of the statue, becuase? becaue locke always has a plan, ecver sinse i watched this show, hes always been the man with the plan.

    sorry to jump out to dabs, but im going to have to spit on the clay, i mean hit the hay!

    its been amaxzing as usual!

    arevaderci bella!

    ps. slitly unrelated, but what where your thoughts of the first episode where jphn locke smiles with the orange peel in his mouth, that was so haunting and something so poignant about it, i cant quite put my finger on it!


  57. losts-columbo, always remind me when I’ve crossed into an area that you have not viewed yet!

    As for Locke and the orange! That creeped me out. It was supposed to be a shout-out to The Godfather, but I saw something sinister.

    I guess one could say that John Locke is The Godfather!

    Thanks for being always inspiring, thoughtful and insightful. You are a welcome addition to the site, and in my life!

    Get some sleep, my bella!


  58. Dabs–leave it to you to write a theory that produces 70 comments!! Very thought-provoking and insightful. The themes of duality, redemption, forgiveness, and the nature of evil are what make LOST a masterpiece of television.

    Dharma-Dancer, yes, I wanted to include Hannibal Lector, but I wasn’t sure he was a real person–I only saw the movie. Chilling, and all the more after reading that he was only too real….

  59. imisscharlie, thanks for the compliment, but with all due respect, I draw from all of the members on this site for my inspiration!

    Aside from the masterpiece of television, that is LOST, which has provided me with many hours of enjoyment.

    This is a great site, and the members are part of what makes it a pleasure to post here!

  60. Dabs I am not bored at all by the philosophicle divergance, it’s very enlightening. As to the Illuminatus trilogy I have no doubt that you would love it, it is full of philosophicle ideas for a person to wrap their mind around. Just to warn you though, the narrative jumps around and switches perspective alot (a lot of times mid sentence actually). Once you get use to the style it’s a riot to read. Can’t wait to hear you thoughts on the Law of Eristic Escalation and Discordianism and how it pertains to Lost.

  61. Achalli, this is what I have been told. I did read up on it on Wikipedia, and it sounds fascinating!

    I will also let you know what I find out about the Law of Eristic Escalation and Discordianism when you post your theory!

    Soon, please! lol

  62. It should be here soon Dabs. I’m juggling two other things at the moment. One of them being a response to my time travel post and the other is the paradox companion piece to it. You’ll probably see the Law of Eristic Escalation one first as it’s mainly a matter of me gathering together the examples from the show to support it.

  63. Achalli, thanks for the ‘heads up’. I better get cracking on my research then!

    The more I look at the Chaos Theory, I am seeing some similarities to Lost!

  64. oh, and one more thing…(about time i used this line…considering my name! haha!)

    i was thinking today, if jacob was say oblivious to the concept of the fear of death and the consequences of that on other peoples families, that would make him not evil parsay, would it?

    if he doesnt have a concept of a ‘moral’ then he can nor be good nor evil!

    a strange concept i know, and hes far from perfect, we know that. so what is he then? phsycotic? nope! because he is oblivious!

    my only solution to this, dabs, is , he could possibly have permission to do as he plaeses, like a spoilt kid, doesnt care how much he spends or takes. jacob is ‘allowed’ to just take lives and create lives, but! if he is allowed, whos giving him permission?



  65. losts-columbo, this is another great point that you raise!

    I recall a very old episode of an old Star Trek episode where there was this little boy named Trelane, from another galaxy, whose parents allowed him a planet and its people to ‘play’ with. As a child, he did very naughty things!

    I think it is possible that Jacob may be different, because he is ‘made’ different. So, if that is true, than somebody is granting him permission. But, no guesses as to who that might be!

    This aspect, has been bothering me, because I do not see Jacob and friend as being ‘all there is’ in the Universe.

  66. haha! that sounds a little like jacob! but i hate star trek unfortunatly so i wich i could have seen this! but yeah! ahaha!

    yeah i know what you mean, i dont want to get into ‘aliens’ territory here, but, as we know there is time travel (perhaps) so there is as you put it, a ‘not from theis world’ (or not in our recon) aspect to jacobs charator, but so has the whole show, surviving that plane crash, which would never happen!


  67. lol I couldn’t help recalling that episode when I first saw Jacob, because that is what it reminded me of.

    Also, the writers gave a shout-out to the ‘Little Prince’, which is similar to that episode in many ways.

    I don’t think it is along the lines of aliens, but more in the realms of other worldly.

    PS: I could not get Locke and the orange peel in his mouth out of my mind last night! lol

    It’s still bugging me! I think you struck gold with that comment!

  68. Dabiatchishere: Very good theory!

    Keeping with your theory and especially your comments with Achalli, I was wondering if anyone noticed the possible significance of Charlie’s DS ring?

    It’s a “Double Square.” Two superimposed squares, at 45-degree angles, forming an 8-pointed star. It is a symbol for the natural universe and the “Balance and Harmony” between “Order and Disorder/Chaos.” It is a “Dualism Symbol” much like the Yin-Yang. On a side note: it can also be viewed as a symbol of regeneration/rebirth and redemption.

    Strangely enough the letters “DS” total 23. D=4 + S=19 = 23. (And then 2+3=5)

    “The only number that was always sort of a key number was 23, and anybody who knows anything about Robert Anton Wilson or any of his writing can read into that what they will. That’s an important number in terms of the scheme of the show.” – Damon Lindelof – E-Online interview.

    Maybe Achalli can confirm, but I believe 23 and 5 are both key numbers in the Principia Discordia that he mentions above, as well as in Wilson’s writings.

    I don’t think it was a coincidence that the ring was found in this episode. Especially since it appears that Jacob and his Nemesis are fighting over exactly what Charlie’s ring represents. For “Balance and Harmony” between Order and Chaos, Fate and Free Will, and Good and Evil.

  69. ‘other worldly’ thats the ticket! i think its definently fiction, and hypathetical, so that would be a good point of refrence!

    i was thinking about that shot all day to!
    it was so out of the blue, id forgotten about it!
    its hard to get anything from it in hindsight, but it was just so poignant, and he was just starring at this peron, with his cut over his eye, and im sure it was orange peel! where did he get orange peel? do we have anything to do with oranges in lost? was it a dharma orange?…was he already there, was it the locke weve seen recently, then replaced by the first locke?

    also, dabs, i dont know if its been discussed, or you can cast your mind back? i was watching episode 18, or 19, the one about jin, and him working for suns dad. i spied, and its a very fleeting moment, when jin was su[pposed to tell the guy to open the factory, we see the man, taking the dog off his daughter, to give to jin, and for a fleeting moment, we see the televison the girl was watching, and it was hurley getting into a car!…..?


  70. losts-columbo, the orange peel as a reference to the movie The Godfather in hindsight tells me that the writers were making reference to John’s dual nature right from the beginning, I think.

    Whether this was the original Locke, or not, I am not certain. I am pretty certain we have missed something. I am going to go back and re-watch the series again! lol

    Jin got the dog from a man that owed Mr. Paik money and didn’t pay up, so he took the dog as payment.

    I can’t recall if what was on tv, if it was when Hurley won the lottery, or when Mr. Cluck’s got hit by the meteor. But, it was one of them.

    PS: Nice trenchcoat, was that a gift from Mrs. Columbo? haha lol I’ve been dying to ask that! lol

  71. haha! i see your godfather refrence, and your duality, i think it will just be another unaswered question, like a mini quiz with no actual answer!

    i thought it might be hurley winning the lottery, but i wasnt sure, it doesnt look like it, but it was odd!

    i actually got the trenchcoat when i was in san francisco in the 70’s and i went to a shop called ‘strawbery-fields’ high on cigar smoke, i waded through the timeless attire, and as if like a pork chop in a synagogue, there it was, stiking out looking as if time had past it by, and i fell in love with it, it cost nin dollers, and off i went into the sunset!


  72. losts-columbo, lol You do know how to tell a story!

    It was definitely Hurley on tv. you are likely right about the answer to the orange peel, but feel it fits into the overall picture!

    What episode are you currently on, and in what season?

  73. im on episode 19 now? i think, i fel asleep last night watching, so 19 it is!

    i will come up with an idea about the orange peel, ill have a proper ‘thunk’ anout it some other day and come up with something!

    i know charlie dies, i hope its soon, thats sounds horrible i know, but i cant stand his stupid fake manc accent!


  74. losts-columbo, regardless if you dislike Charlie, the events leading up to his death are sad!

    Glad you will give more thought to the orange peel, because I know it means something.

    You must have been up late!

  75. ahaha! yeah he is important and intriguing, just hate his accent!

    i was up till like half two or three, didnt feel much like 40 winks! but 40 minutes of lost was good!

    i wonder where john got the orange peel? strange…cant stop thinking about it now!


  76. Now you got me going on the orange peel. lol

    I want to re-watch this past season, and go back to the beginning and start from scratch again and go all the way through to see what I might have missed along the way.

    You are young, you don’t need much sleep! lol

  77. haah! i may be young dabs, but people who come to bookmakers arent, and theyre in there at the strike of nine in the morning!

    well, ill have a wee think aboot the orange peel hen, and al gee ye a wee answer as soon as a possibly can!

    good night bella regazza!


  78. Elsewhere you are correct about 23 and 5 being important to the Principia and Illuminatus trilogy. It appears throughout both works as asacred number. I didn’t catch the thing about the ring so nice catch.

  79. elsewhere, for some reason your comment has not posted, but it would appear that Achalli has viewed it.

    I will look at your comment in my e-mail box, and get back with a response.

  80. elsewhere, I am posting your comment, for my own benefit, so i can properly respond.

    **Dabiatchishere: Very good theory!

    Keeping with your theory and especially your comments with Achalli, I was wondering if anyone noticed the possible significance of Charlie’s DS ring? It’s a “Double Square.”

    Two superimposed squares, at 45-degree angles, forming an 8-pointed star. It is a symbol for the natural universe and the “Balance and Harmony” between “Order and Disorder/Chaos.” It is a “Dualism Symbol” much like the Yin-Yang.

    On a side note: it can also be viewed as a symbol of regeneration/rebirth and redemption. Strangely enough the letters “DS” total 23. D=4 + S=19 = 23. (And then 2+3=5) “The only number that was always sort of a key number was 23, and anybody who knows anything about Robert Anton Wilson or any of his writing can read into that what they will.

    That’s an important number in terms of the scheme of the show.” – Damon Lindelof – E-Online interview.

  81. lol elsewhere, now I can properly respond to you!

    I wasn’t aware of Charlie’s ring, or its significance! That is extremely interesting! A ‘Dualism Symbol’. So, this tells me, that I am on the right track, with this train of thought, and that what Achalli has been discussing about Order and Disroder/Chaos is indeed a worthy train of thought!

    Thanks so much for your comment and your input!

    I will definitely be reading up on these subjects, ASAP!

    PS: I did hear the interview regarding the importance of the number 23.

  82. Achalli: Thanks for the confirmation. I know we were first shown the ring way back in the Pilot episode, but I never really took notice to its possible meaning until the season 5 finale.

    Dabiatchishere: Since this was my first comment, I believe it was held back for moderation. It is showing up now, about a dozen or so comments above.

    I believe you are totally on the right track.

    It is my opinion that Order and Chaos, are just another way of saying Fate and Free Will. Order is Fate and Chaos is Free Will. But I think the key is balance. Can either exist without the other? I don’t believe they can.

    So, here’s the thing: What’s with all the talk in the show about Destiny? Where does Destiny fit into the scheme of things? Well, I don’t look at Destiny as being synonymous with Fate. I believe that in-order to reach your Destiny it requires Free Will. Choices we all make today effect your future. As per Ben; Destiny is a fickle b!tch, because it is guided by your own Free Will. So Destiny is, and will always be chaotic. But, sometimes Fate, an outside entity or force, will have to come along when you lose your way and give you “the needed push” back in the right direction, possibly by the touch of a seemingly random stranger.

  83. lol elsewhere, I never looked up that far, to last night’s comments! Your response was just before 8:00 am this morning! duh moment! lol It’s Friday, I’m allowed!

    I was convinced that I had ‘lost’ my mind! Please call me Dabs, btw.

    I completely agree with you regarding Destiny! I don’t know where people get the notion that ‘free will’ is non-existent, when our choices have a direct impact on our destiny. So, like you, I believe that both have to co-exist! And, like everything else in life, balance is the key!

    These are some examples of free will and how it applies.

    In the religious realm, free will may imply that an omnipotent divinity does not assert its power over individual will and choices.

    In ethics, it may imply that individuals can be held morally accountable for their actions.

    In the scientific realm, it may imply that the actions of the body, including the brain and the mind, are not wholly determined by physical causality.

    I agree that Fate acts, like a ‘detour sign’ in the road! When you are off course, you are re-directed via another route.

    It’s kind of like the old adage, “When a door closes to you, a window is left open for you”.

    I believe that Lost is coming down to this very debate about Fate vs. Free Will, Dualism, etc., in the final season.

    I have wondered if the writers will provide us with the answers, or allow the viewers to form their own decisions.

    I welcome you as a new member, and as another like-minded individual who has many things of value to contribute to the site!

    I look forward to hearing much more from you!

  84. orange!

    okay, i seem to remeber, and i rember this and got it from the cellar of my cranium, that in days of ship adventures etc, ship crews would plant orange and lime trees on islands and countries they found to prevent scurvy, as it was a good natural method to help some to cure it….i think. thats why they were called limeys.

    so, for starters, could john locke have an affinity to the black rock?

    probably not, but im trying to make a database of orange facts! haha!


  85. sorry to be nosey again! but i spyed your comments on ominpotent beings in the religious realms.

    i have been forever confused about this notion, simply because i think if your omnipotent, why and howwould you have any needs and wants?

    your omnipotent so i dont see why you could have or gain any thing else?


  86. Hi limey! lol Honestly, I never realized that is where that term came from! Very interesting!

    I am not ‘feeling’ the orange connection though. Locke could be a descendant of the Black Rock. I’ll give that some further thought.

    As for an ‘omnipotent’ divinity having any wants/needs, I am not really sure. Great question! I would think they must have them though! Especially, if ‘man’ is created in that ‘omnipotent’ individuals likeness!

  87. haha! yeah, the poor bastards on the lower deck scrubbing away were called limeys, as they were the ones that got scurvy, and limes and oranges were the only thing that had a good ‘sell by date’ to last the long journeys. i learned that from keith floyd (that might mean nothing to you!) of all people!

    im not feeling it either! im just trying to find anything, because i cant help thinking it is important!

    thats just the thing about god, if he is omnipotent, i dont understand why he needs anything, maybe he was bored?


    ps sorry for swearing, i am scottish after all! ahah!


  88. haha losts-columbo, no apology required!

    I do know that Keith Lloyd is a famous chef. I do watch ‘cooking’ shows here too. Jamie Oliver and Gordon Ramsey to name a few Brits.

    I do feel the scene with Locke is important, and we will figure it out!

    I also feel that an ‘omnipotent being’, might get bored!

  89. hahah! well, old keith is quite the charactor, he was famed for having to many chardonnays and cooking drunk, but he was sill great!

    i dont understand, if your omnipotent why would you get bored, you dont need or want anything, you alreadyare everyhting!


  90. losts-columbo, there was another fellow who did the same thing, ‘tipping the bottle’. I can’t recall his name off-hand at the moment.

    Well, I guess that is the all-important question, isn’t it. Does anyone, including an ‘omnipotent’ being have everything? hmm…..I don’t think that is quite realistic, especially if that ‘being’ has emotions! Just a thought!

  91. jacb seems fairly omnipotent but he doesnt have emotions! omnipotency is an illogical belief anyway, so…..yeah! in my opinion, haha!


  92. losts-ciolumbo, so, perhaps we can say that Jacob is the opposite, because he lacks emotions!

    Whether you believe in omnipotence isn’t relevant to ‘the emotions’, part of it.

    An entity of light would have compassion, and a dark entity would lack these qualities.

  93. hmm.. interesting dabs…as a charactor go i feel jacob is emotionless in terms of morals and his effect on other people, he doesnt do things becasue he knows it will work but might harm others, that doesnt compute with him, he just does whatever he does, purely for progress!

    are you suggesting hes an entity? or pehaps a man from the future….? were genetics went wrong!


  94. losts-columbo, I am not sure what Jacob really is, but I agree with the stance that he is only interested in one thing, and that is progress.

    You know I like your thinking though on Jacob. I really need to re-watch this season. I have been so swamped with other things, that I have barely had a chance to digest any Lost! boo-hoo!

    A week or two, my mind will be back on track! Look out! haha lol

  95. im glad you like my thinking! its good to hear that someone does! ahha!

    i hope you get back into it soon, im just about to go and watch the last episode of season one, i satyed up till 4 last night catching up!

    ………red eyes!


  96. one more orange fact,

    john locke was sucking on an orange, orange is a name of alot of protrestant over here, who march about with bands, protestant is a sect of christianity, christianity, christianity is a faith, locke believes in faith (rember what he said to jack.)

    theyre we go, a nice wee round about way to link oranges to john locke….

    piss poor atempt!


  97. lol haha losts-columbo, I appreciate the attempt anyway!

    I have reached the conclusion, that it may just mean, that the writers, were trying to bring it to our attention that Locke is ‘The Godfather’ of ‘the island’. I think after the finale, this is the impression I have about ‘old orange mouth’. lol

  98. hmm thoughts for season 6 here we go: Man in Black picks his OWN lineup. He is seen touching several character for his own dark side. I don’t really know who this would involve…I would guess Sayid but Jacob already got him. Maybe Ben…Juliette (she’s probably feeling bitter and ready to kick some freckled ass)…Desmond….basically the people who still have a job to do but didn’t get “picked”. Just a very rough thought.

  99. Here’s a thought I had, what do you think?

    Is there some connection or meaning behind the characters/figures used on the island by either Jacob/MIB/Smokey/The Island itself to influence the survivors/others etc and the color of the individual/objects skin, hair, fir, clothes?

    Dark: Walt, Lemy, Alex, the smoke monster
    Light: Christian, Claire, Ben’s mother, Vincent.

    Do you think that the light side could be used by Jacob, or the good side of humanity and the dark side used be MIB or the dark side of humanity?

    Which, or course, goes back to Locke’s lesson on Backgammon to Walt. And when thinking of season one, is there a meaning behind Jack, dark hair, dark suit and Locke, fair skinned, light clothes?

  100. Hi DEStination, that is a very good point, about Jacob and friend, (one I had not really thought about). I do happen to think it likely speaks more to their nature, but…suppose it’s possible.

    Thanks for bringing it up, as it is a valid point.

    I think some people tend to think there is something to what you say.

    Thanks for your comment!

  101. Wow, Ive been missing out on a lot as of late, no?

    Achalli…what is OJ and Possum Soufle?

    I wrote a pretty good theory once on the subject of repetative posts and derogatory remarks on others theories…as a simple theorist…not as an administrator, or anything to that nature.
    Im not an administrator, or anything to that nature…just a petty, respectful to others, theorist…now if I can only find the link…I’ll state the title and post the address!

    Seriously though, Achalli….Who or what is OJ and Possum Soulfe, you’re killing me…

  102. A.E.S., OJ is simply a reference to the orange juice used for the sub trips to and from the Island. Possum Soufle, along with the OJ is a reference to an exchange between Dabs and myself in my post ‘DHARMA Data: The DHARMA Initiative Newsletter.’ It was something I done along the same lines as the letter from DHARMA to the Others that I did. Dabs outdid herself again.

  103. losts-columbo, ahhh yes and I have also missed your very essence!

    I will happily accept your verbal incontinence any time, my rumpled little detective!

    My flair for the Italian language is no match for yours!

    Seriously though, I did miss you a lot!

  104. aww! well im glad you dont mind! someone else to put up with it i guess!

    ive missed you to my favourite canadian! and how i have longed to get my brain active with you! although, i think, ive slightly lost my train of thought but it shant take long for it to be back!

    but alas, doth have no fear, for hope springs eternal from the mans breast. (apparently they have them).

    but yes, on that note bed, and sorry again for the rubbish on your theories, but thought id say a formal hello to my best friend!

    ciao bella bella!


  105. losts-columbo, I don’t think of anything you have ever said as being rubbish! I value all of your words and thoughts. Keep em coming, and I look forward to many future conversations with my very intelligent lost friend.

    Did those electromagnetic waves I was sending to you get through?

    I was trying to contact you via my telepathic powers. lol But, had to use my tin foil hat to keep out the rest of the unwanted thoughts from permeating my brain!

    You’re still the best, and keep your eyes peeled for something good in near future.

    Ciao, my bella delicious

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