Jacob’s Game
My take on the concept of LOST is that everything we have seen happen, has already happened.
A simple answer could be that everytime it ends “it always ends the same,” Jacob could be going back to reset the clock and start from the beginning, “making progess.”
Think about it like a chess game, you are Jacob and MIB is the computer. Everytime you lose to the computer the game is over and being that it is a game, you can put all the pieces back in their original spots and start over. You can change your strategy, move different pieces to differet places, try and learn your opponent so that with each game you make “progress.”
The computer (MIB) will say “give up, stop trying to prove me wrong, you always lose, it always ends the same.” But you (Jacob) can say it ends when I say it ends “it only ends once” and everytime I lose a game I will conider it “progress.” Having the computer be a real person in this scenario, I can see why MIB may want to kill Jacob – He has this overbearing power, I would probably feel the same!
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What does this repeat of events and game between gods have to do with Sun? Keep reading!
LOST made it pretty clear that Desmond, after being exposed to enough electromagnetic radiation could infact see the future. He was right about everything except one thing, Claire and Aaron never did get on that helicopter.
Now I know what you’re thinking, it could still happen in s6. NO!
If they escape by helicopter again it will be lame, I am kinda sure Claire is dead or similar to Miles (more on that later) and even if she does get off the island on a helicopter and Aaron comes back so they are together, he would not be the baby Aaron that Desmond recognized in his vision.
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So what happened to Desmond’s vision, why didn’t it come true like everything else. Charlie hit the flashing button and drowned, but he changed something. NOT PENNYS BOAT – writing that on his hand started a whole chain of events that led Claire to leave the beach and go with Locke to live at the barracks.
I know there is a lot of speculation regarding what happened to Claire at the barracks during the attack of the mercenaries but the evidence is overwhelming.
Immediately after her house BLOWS UP and Sawyer carriers her back to Ben’s –
1. Miles, who has a spiritual connection with the dead -acts, looks and speaks to Claire very oddly.
2. She wakes up, can see her dead father and leaves her baby behind in the jungle that very night.
3. We see her in the cabin later on, acting very strange, unlike herself, showing no concern for her son.
[SPOILER]4. Watched a deleted scene on the season 4 dvd set of Claire waking up after the explosion in Ben’s house with Hurley standing over her. When she wakes up she tells Hurley that she can see her father. Hurley sees no one. WATCH IT! [/SPOILER]
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Oddly this is taking forever but back to Sun. Now why would she leave her child Ji Yeon to go back to the island? Only to save her husband Jin. But what if Jin doesn’t belong in ’77. What if Jin was on the helicopter in all of Jacob’s other games.
Maybe Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid flashed off an airplane to 1977 because in all of Jacob’s past games they are there. He needs them to be there in ’77 to cause the incident which inturn will cause 815 to crash. Just like 316 lands on a runway at Hydra Island, in season 3 Juliet says that the others are building a runway on Hydra Island!
Either Jacob wanted it there and ordered it to protect Ilana or MIB ordered it as Jacob to protect Locke’s body or maybe Ben knew about 316 and ordered it to protect himself when he got on that flight. Anyone ever think Ben knows more then we think he does?
Basically this all sums up to the fact that the Oceanic 6 are the wrong people, hence why they had to go back, and when they did, the ones that needed to be in ’77 went to ’77.
Just like pieces on a board, Jin and Sun have been seperated for a reason this time around, some sort of strategy. I think the cards will be in Sun’s hands, we will just have to wait and see the hand she is dealt.
*My only flaw is that if Jin doesn’t stay behind, would Rousseau have gone under the temple wall?
Thats not a spoiler, season 4 deleted scene!
my biggest problem with the claire is dead theory is that miles has a very specific way of talking to the dead (which he explains to hurley: it doesnt work like that). everyone else interacts with claire too.
ekolocation, believe me I have had the same issue and with what we know this is the best I could come up with.
In the episode “Some Like It Hoth,” Miles sortof explains his power to Hurley.
He says very clearly, he DOES NOT SPEAK TO THE DEAD. He has a spiritual connection with them, a power he does not even understand.
Something about Claire was odd to him. Maybe he saw her standing there looking ok but in her head what he heard, she was dead.
I was convinced once I saw the season4 deleted scene.
Miles has some other abilities, too. Like how he knew Michael was lying about his name when he boarded the freighter. I don’t think he even understands all he is capable of doing.
Thank you Roland,
Miles said in “Some Like It Hoth” that
1. He does NOT speak to the dead, spiritual connection.
2. Miles said to Hurley “that’s not how it works” meaning that your dead friends don’t come into your room at night and tell you stories. Miles says that once you die your brain is gone, all that remains is what happened before you died.
3. Miles is no even sure of how his power works, maybe he is seeing something in Claire that he never noticed before.
Hopefully, most of the paranormal will be explained somehow by one science fiction aspect of the show.
I hope these characters don’t have special abilities that do not relate to this science fiction aspect of the show.
Desmond’s time jumping, Miles, Hurley, Walt, the Whispers, seeing dead people, the smoke monster, etc. ,any one that has some ability, hopefully will be explained by an alternate timeline or something else.
I also hope that all the characters: Jacob, his buddy on the beach, Richard, John Locke, Christian, etc. will all turn out to be normal human beings without some special power. Just characters caught up in the extraordinary events on the island. I think the questions we should be asking are (1) How can Jacob be simply human? (2) How could what we see make sense if Richard Alpert DOES age normally? (3) How is it possible that the man who goads Ben into killing Jacob is simply John Locke?
Answering questions like this will get us closer to what is going on in Lost.
BanLinus, I agree. And according to Jacob, Hurley is not crazy. This should be interesting.
BanLinus
There was a time before season 5 when I believed that “everything on lost would have a proven scientific explanation”
But to be honest, they kind of went off the deep end with the whole time travel thing.
Not to say that I didn’t love it, season5 is my favorite of all (back stories on dharma, rousseu, ben and widmore) but I have started to explore more “supernatural” aspects because that is where it looks like the show is going.
I am sure they will answer the big questions, but stuff like why Miles has a connection with the dead and why Walt is special may be left out.
I agree with you about Claire being dead. I also noticed Miles acting very strange when she was around. Good catch.
Joshcgs, i agree about missing out the explanation of some abilities and events. Like you say, imagine how many hours would be needed to scientifically prove time travel.
the good thing about these concepts (time travel and talking to the dead etc) are things that are quite simply for everybody to understand but don’t really need explanations.
back to your original theory, i do like the ideas about everything just being a game because throughout the 5 seasons, little hints about a game and rules were being dropped all the time.
just a quick point on the time traveling business – the fact that due to the time travelling, characters from different time periods have interacted and us as viewers have seen the past, present and future actions. an example is when Locke is time skipping. to begin with, we watch his present and then a Richard from the future help him. Later we see Flockes present and then Lockes past. The outcome of this trio of time periods is that this overall event has happened, is happening and then will happen.
Basically, it’s hard to believe that if the bomb goes off it changes anything because the above event sort of proves that it doesn’t.
unless events goes all the way back to a unified beginning or start point many years ago the intergrity of thetime travelling aspects become a bit leaky.
(sorry to go off on a bit if a tangent!)
Fictional time travel can be defined by the writers. It doesn’t have to be scientific in nature, but the story is best when it sets the rules and then doesn’t break them. I don’t Lost has, or will regardless of season 6.
I just want a unifying event or theme to be the reason behind all the magic. Time travel, whatever.
I don’t think the show can or ever endeavored to be explained by science, but instead by science fiction.
I_Am_Jacob,
I think we are on the same page, I only say I think because what you wrote is a little confusing but its ok!
From my POV it is a game, we have –
TEAMS, PLAYERS, RULES, LOOPHOLES
and at the beginning of the seaso5 finale we see Jacob and his Opponent talking about the game. What I took from the conversation is that everytime “the game” ends, Jacob restarts so he can try again with a different plan.
If I was MIB or Jacob’s opponent, whatever you choose to call him, I would probably want to kill him also. MIB pretty much says;
“STILL TRYING TO PROVE ME WRONG” = STILL TRYING TO WIN
even though
“IT ALWAYS ENDS THE SAME” = I ALWAYS WIN
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Then we have Jacob on the other side saying hey;
“IT ONLY ENDS ONCE” = GAME IS OVER WHEN I DECIDE
and
“EVERYTHING BEFORE THAT IS JUST PROGRESS” = EVERY GAME WE PLAY IS ME TWEAKING MY STRATEGY MORE AND MORE TO PROVE YOU WRONG/MAKE YOU LOSE
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In my theory above I stated that I think last time Jacob and MIB played the game, Claire did get on the helicopter with Sun & Jin.
Sayid, Jack, Kate & Hurley were meant to be in ’77, “they were not supposed to leave”
The universe course corrected and put the O6 where they belong. Sun does not belong in ’77, atleast this time around, Jacob may have plans for her.
Maybe this is FLocke is so nice and warm to Sun because he knows she is out of place and Jacob may have a plan for her.
I think LOST is one big circle that Jacob keeps changing ever so slightly so that the end result is in his favor
also mentioned in my theory is the flaw
That if Jin never flashed to ’77, in a previos game, would Rousseu still be alive?
Jin was the only one who stopped her from going under the temple. Shit,,, Ben made it out of there like a bandit!
BanLinus i think you are looking at lost as somewhat of a straight line with just a basic scientific (fiction) explanation but over the last 2 seasons, the show has shown us its not straight foreward and basic due to the time-jumps, Desmond seeing into the future/past/the fate of charlie etc. I mean theres even a frozen donkey wheel (i dont think that can be scientifically explained)!
I think believing it will all turn out scientific in the end is a bit naive.
Joshcgs – I dont think Claire is dead.. ok i lie, i do i just dont want her to be *sad face*.. I also noticed Miles’ expression when he seen her, and the way she just wandered away into the night with Christian leaving her baby behind.. that was very un-claire like.. and the deleted scene just basically decided it for me.
However if what you mention above is true (in a sense of theory) “IT ALWAYS ENDS THE SAME” = I ALWAYS WIN” then the story of the losties is no different – ben/unlocke killed jacob = he loses again. Unless the hydrogen bomb incident is changing the rules – when jacob says ‘they’re coming’ unlocke looks quite worried..
aww i dont know, theres a lot of thinking required with this show lol!
I_Am_Jacob
I think I figured out what you were trying to say, correct me if I am wrong.
You said all of the island mysteries, things that seem impossible all have an explanation, its just point of view.
You used Locke time-traveling as an example, let me try to clean it up.
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Lets say we were watching LOST entirely from Charles Widmore’s point of view. We would see Locke in ’54 and off island looking exactly the same in ’07.
We would say holy shit, that guy doesnt age, just like Richard!
It may just all be a point of view!
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How funny would it be if at the end they show Ben controlling the smoke monster with a joystick! Not really funny no 🙁
SawyerGirl
Nice name 😉 – I think that the “progress” Jacob is speaking of is how he changes what happens each time.
Maybe MIB was never successfully able to kill Jacob in any of the other “games” they played.
We are watching this “game” as opposed to all the others because this time was different, MIB had a plan, “they’re coming” that was Jacobs secret plan! I think :/
Hmmm… I agree that it is likely that it’s all a game. I’m actually working on a theory about that right now… also that possibility that the “progress” that Jacob refers to is how he tweaks his strategy and that the game has been played over and over, i can agree with. However, I don’t think it’s been played with the same pieces. i think that maybe some ancient Egyptians were the first “game pieces”, then the crew of the blackrock, then, the DI, etc, etc… but Jacob has taken some of the pieces from each game and saved them/reused them in the next round, i.e. Richard.
and as far as Desmond seeing Claire and Aaron getting on a helicopter, we never actually saw this particular vision of his, all we have to go on is his word that that is what he saw. is it possible that he saw himself getting on a helicopter and being reunited with Penny, and so he lied to Charlie. Maybe he assumed that if HE got rescued, so would everyone else including Claire, and so the lie wasn’t that big of a deal…
LilBoyBlue,
C’mon, do you really think Desmond lied to Charlie and let him die for no good reason. He saved Charlie a few other times and one time he ALMOST didn’t because he thought it would change the future – which I think it did.
and BTW – Desmond’s vision did come true, he mentioned a flashing light going off and Charlie drowning, all before they found out about the looking glass. If Desmond had let the arrow kill Charlie, some1 else without a marker would have been locked in that room to drown!
Claire would not leave the beach to go with Locke if it were not for Charlie’s warning.
****I do like the idea of the game being played with different pieces. My only problem with that is all the hieroglyphics and shit are still around so I think the game is the islands entire history until,,,
IT ENDS.
Jacob and MIB have been manipulating this game over and over, Jacob can’t seem to make the right moves so he is making “progress”
MIB is like shit man I won a million times, “stop trying to prove me wrong”
And,,, sorry for rambling I just love Desmond.
Desmond felt so bad, even doubted his vision and said “maybe I keep seeing you die because I am supposed to take your place”
He was going to push the button for Charlie and even swam down after him not knowing that the looking glass was not flooded.
I agree that time on LOST is linear and Sun was never in 1977, therefore she did not flash off 316.
Jin’s character didn’t add anything to the 74-77 on island plot. He really was just a background character. Story wise his character value is his eventual reunion with Sun.
Making Sun not flash to 77 adds drama and anticipation of their reunion. How boring would it have been (and it would have been a distraction from the Sawyer/Kate reunion) if Sun would have been in 77? She would have just been another person getting a Dharma job, blah blah blah, and then hanging around the van while Jack and crew tried to blow the bomb.
Remember when Locke plays that computer in chess over and over until he eventually wins? It unlocks a secret passage if I remember correctly…
Foreshadowing
Hey, I understand the show has time travel. I love the concept of time travel. In fact, I think it’s become the tool of choice for sci-fi writers.
I think the time travel will be used to explain all the phenomena. An alternate time line from 1977-2007 will be part of that. I don’t think all our characters have just been pawns.
Oh I so like the first part of this theory.
Remember episode Enter 77 Season 3, Locke is playing chess on the computer and actually beats the computer. Mikhail then says something like “That’s impossible, you can’t beat that computer”.
Fits exactly to what you say about MIB being the “unbeatable” computer and Jacob being Locke, trying to beat the unbeatable..
Or something like that 😛
I feel that the idea that the whole of Lost being a repeating story over and over again pointless, why am I even watching if it just repeats slightly differently, what’s the point of the story? On Jacob and MIB playing the pieces, it’s really condescending to the characters and again what’s the point if it’s not about personal growth and individual character arcs? They are just being moved over and over again. But how are they being moved, just cos we saw Jacob touch some people doesn’t mean he is controlling or even influencing them- the only person we saw him directly lead back to the island was Hurley.
On Claire being dead, something is certainly not quite right there, but if she is dead how do Sawyer etc interact with her?
I do agree with Ban, it’s a sci-fi show, there will be a ‘sciency’ expalination that will encompass all the stuff we’ve been shown, they can’t call it sci-Di if they turn around and make it all magical or ‘just believe’ on us. I have complete faith that the writers have had that science theory behind everything they’ve done and it will all come together nicely for us in one whole, complete story (not just one go round a never ending cycle)
Hi Josh, sorry for the confusion but, i’m sure you’ll agree with me, as long as things are confusing, you know that they are definately Lost related. the more confusing the better because nobody can then prove you wrong!
i’ll have to write a theory about it because i haven’t written much for a while.
Good point on Desmond diving down after Charlie… I still think it’s possible that he lied to Charlie, but I’ll admit that it’s also possible that he didn’t. (also, Desmond is my favorite character too.)
Tas: as far as the idea of the characters being gamepieces being condescending, i’ve got to disagree. I think that if it turns out that they have been pawns in this huge game the whole time, then i think there would be a good chance that the writers will try to get across the message that a single gamepiece can change the outcome of everything and end the game by becoming “self-aware”. maybe our characters will find out what is happening and they will find a way to stop it by refusing to play/fight anymore… I think that would be the opposite of condescending, have our characters/the gamepieces end up teaching the players, MIB/Jacob a lesson of sorts…
Take Locke’s life for example.
con’d by his father, used by that cop (hate that actor), spending money on call girls for company..
He has been used like a pawn his whole life.
Even on the island – Ben wanted him to blow the sub, manipulated Locke into believing that he should turn the wheel (he did that for his own selfish reason, to go after widmore), and apparently MIB is using Locke’s body and mind like a puppet!
*As for their being an end to the “game”
I am going to suspect that means the end of the island.
Cant help but feel sorry for Locke right naw..
Agreed 100%, I could see myself as Boone following him lol!
*I also forgot to mention Ben tricking Locke into spilling what he knew about Eloise Hawking, then just killed him and disgracfully re-hung his body.
Sorry SawyerGirl 🙁
guy just cant catch a break can he haha!
Josh, I agree that Locke has been easily manipulated his whole life by many, but to a degree he has been a willing participant because he wanted something out of it. I’m just going to be disappointed if they make it a case of all the characters being mindless pawns. I don’t think the Losties have actively entered the game/war as yet but I see them more as random pieces moving themsleves without any understanding of the bigger picture and those who know whats going on are doing their best to work with them.
To LilBoy, you can’t suddenly make all the characters become self aware and reslove all character arcs like that, so what’s the point of knowing about them if their lives on the island were so out of their control. We’ve been shown into the lives of the Losties in particular to see their personal growth, their different levels and degrees of awareness and acceptance of themsleves as part of the world. I guess to use “The Stand” as an example of what I mean – the main protagonists weren’t fully aware of what they were dealing with through most of the story, by understanding Flagg and making the decision to act, and die in some cases they made the difference. They weren’t ‘played’, they made their own decisions and choices all the time – just sometimes without much knowledge of the big picture. I see this as being really similar to the way the writers have set up these characters in Lost.
Tas,
I do not think they are mindless pawns, just that they are apart of something bigger then themselves.
We talk about LOST being a possible game between Jacob & MIB, but what are they trying to prove to one another?
I think Jacob wants to show MIB that people can change, they can live together and share the island. That they do not need to fight, destroy and corrupt everything.
It seems as though the rules are to allow for free will, everyone is entitled to make their own decisions. The dreams/visions, trips to the cabin, visits from Jacob, all just influences, seeing if they will take the bait.
Jack could have said you know what im not hungry anymore you can keep that Apollo bar. What would Jacob do then? Same wayhe gave Hurley & Ben a choice, its freewill, only the guitar case & “what about you” was a little push.
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Have you ever read The Iliad?
A war between Troy & The Greeks
(war coming on LOST between opposing teams)
Achilles & Hector
(Locke & Jack)
Unlike the movie Troy, in the book the gods play a huge role intervening in the battle.
Because some gods favor the Greeks and some the Trojans, they take sides. Some gods are more fair then others, some aid the ones they support.
Achilles is only able to defeat Hector because Athena (who was in love with Achilles) brings his spear back to him without Hector noticing allowing Hector to be fooled.
I only think this relates by showing all of these characters being watched and influenced by a higher power.
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LOST has repeatedly played into the theme of being watched with knowing it.
Jeremy Bentham is famous for the Panopticon
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon
Desmond says “we are stuck in a bloody snow globe”
Walt’s comic shows a city in a bubble, the city is in small scale to the rest of the picture as though it is being watched.
There are probably more examples but I am tired.
if anyone is wondering why I am so active today on the site, home sick with a cold 🙁
I think we disagree on some of the big points, rather than the smaller details of your theory. I think that MIB and Jacob are just men and not godlike and that the argument is over how the island should be ‘used’. Yes I have read The Illiad and am not going anywhere near the movie – but that isn’t a sci-fi story so the underlying understanding of the world in which these two stories are being told is different. In The Illiad gods and their intervention was believed and accepted but it wasn’t described as science. I think that the basis for Lost will be scientific in nature, I just can’t go with super powers and gods and just believe because I haven’t bought into a fantasy story, I bought into a sci-fi show.
The panopticon was ultimately about the lack of observation – you can keep people under control with the impression of a watcher and therefore not need anyone there at all – no one is watching!
I guess we need to agree to disagree on the big picture stuff, the joy of Lost, who knows 😉
Seeing Jacob look exactly the same over the course of 200 years and his ability to
1. Leave the island (we are yet to know how)
2. Bring Locke back to life
3. Visit some losties as children
4. Taking responsibility for bringing people (the black rock) to the island.
5. Richard saying “Jacob made me this way”
How can you deny him of having some sort of power?
As for the Panopticon – not sure where you got your information, but it was used as a prison design system.
“The concept of the design is to allow an observer to observe (-opticon) all (pan-) prisoners without the prisoners being able to tell whether they are being watched, thereby conveying what one architect has called the “sentiment of an invisible omniscience.”
People ARE being watched and they don’t know it. Jeremy Bentham! c’mon they could have used any philosophers name.
What the hell is the point of a lack of observation, then you are not learning anything.
atleast observe people who don’t know they are being observed or can’t tell.
but the observation itself is the point, like a two way mirror.
Benthan has been quoted as saying “I will be the gaoler. You will see … that the gaoler will have no salary – will cost nothing to the nation.” As the watchmen cannot be seen, they need not be on duty at all times, effectively leaving the watching to the watched. Because the prisoners could never see who was watching or when or where, they felt watched all of the time, thus behaving even if no one was there.
I don’t think observation is the point, but then that comes down to a massive philosophical issue. I don’t ‘act’ because I think someone is watching. I don’t believe in the Christian god, someone who is ‘keeping score’ as such so I need to do the right thing to get into heaven. I act the way I do because I need to treat people and the world with the same respect I would like to be treated with, not so that I can go to heaven because a higher power is watching.
On Jacob’s powers: (Locke has also looked the same to Widmore over 50 years – it’s all about point of view)
1. Richard, Ben, Locke, Tom the O6, Michael, Walt, Eloise, Des, Widmore have all left the island using a variety of methods – they’ve used the scientific casimir effect to explain the FDW, so he doesn’t need to be special to have left.
2. We don’t know that Locke was dead, people have been known to survive unbelievable events.
3. There’s been lots of time travel so combined with a understanding of how the FDW works can easily explain the visits to the Lostie kids.
4. Maybe he spoke to the captian of the ship back on the mainland and told him about this wonderful, special island and how to find it. Instructions on how to get to the island seem to have been in the ledger (Widmore bought it then could find the island after years of exile?)
5. We don’t know how or what Richard actually is – that whole storyline has been purposefully ambiguous. he may just time travel, he may have been affected by the electromagnetic properties of the island (the island is special).
All can be reasonably explained without Jacob needing to be godlike. Again, your ideas may turn out to be correct, I’ll be really disappointed if so, not beacuse I want to be right but because I didn’t think I was watching a fantasy TV show, and that’s what it would have become.
I mentioned POV in a different theory/thread and know that it is possible someone appears not to be aging but it is really the result of them traveling through time. I just think it seems as though Richard and Jacob do it quite conveniently.
As for Jacob leaving the island – doubtful that he would just turn the wheel it has obvious consequences and I don’t see him getting on the sub.
You think he has a private boat or plane hidden somewhere in the shadow of the statue?
Believe me I don’t want to succumb to the idea of a fantasy show, but as I said earlier, thats what it appears to be.
You will find a way to negate anything I say and I you. This debate is really going no where we are going to have to let season 6 show us the way.
*Sidenote*
Let’s not get into our own personal religious beleifs, stick with fiction!
I agree that we are talking around each other. But personal beliefs play a huge part in how each of us ‘read’ Lost, your comments on the importance of observation shows that, we all bring ourselves to any text we read or view that’s what make great fiction great, our personal connection with the story no matter what our back story. That’s what makes Lost so interesting, we can have this really interesting discussion coming from different perpsectives which gets you thinking, maybe not change your mind, but it all definately gets you thinking.
Don’t give up on the sci-fi. Believe the writers will stay true to the intent of Lost as a sci-fi show. They’ll deilver without magic ;).
It’s been a good debate.
Agreed,
In my perfect world everything would be explained realistically, not some bs because i am magical, and we wouldnt have two time lines, just flash to the future and the war begins.
I know at some point in the season they will all come together on the island and I (hopefully we) will get to see what we have been waiting for.