the grandfather paradox?

I’m a big believer of whatever happened, happened so lets go by that theory for a minute.

Lets assume detonating the Jughead is the cause of the incident..

That means everything we’ve seen in the future is going to happen again – the losties will crash, they will travel back to the 70s, they will cause the incident, shoot back to normal time (2004 as they assumed) and it will happen all over again – this is also supporting the timeloop theory.

(even if they dont shoot through time, in 30 years they will be back on 815)

But lets say the detonation prevents the incident.. which i know many people believe..

There is no incident, they Swan site is used for research on electomagnetism as planned, Desmond doesnt come to the island and forget to press the button, the 815 crash doesnt happen, the losties dont travel back to 74/77, they dont prevent the incident.

If they prevent the incident, they cant go back in time to prevent it..

i know this seems a lot of head work but think about it, its the grandfather paradox – if you go back in time and kill your grandfather, you will never be born therefore not able to go back in time to kill your grandfather.

So back to the point – the incident has to happen for the losties to go back and try to prevent it.. but technically, they never can prevent it.

What are your thoughts?

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66 thoughts on “the grandfather paradox?

  1. i completely 100% agree with you and understand. This has been my thought for a while.

    the reason that what you are saying is true and correct is that we have seen events from 1977 and 2004.

    what happened in the past caused the events in the future and then what happened in the future caused the events in the past.

    As there has been a lot of talk about an alternate time line in season 6, i find this very unbelievable due to exactly the above reasons. The only way that things can change is if the timeline was taking many many years back to a point where somebody made the choice that set Lost’s chain of events in motion. if this choice is altered then future events can too.

    the only other events that can change are the ones that we haven’t seen yet ie. 2007 onwards.

    Just to finish on a bit of a rant, the thing that will really really REALLY piss me off is that if Season 6 is an alternate time line, why oh why oh why has it taken 5 seasons to get there? So far we have seen hours and hours worth of storyline which may get possibly be changed just like that. I’m really hoping that this doesn’t happen though.

  2. i also understand your point about the paradox and the only way to get around it is by an alt timeline. i’m with i_am_jacob on wondering why it took 5 seasons. it would make more sense if the series was split 3 main/3 alt.

    i guess alt thing must be different than what we are imagining.

  3. There’s something I’m struggling with. I posted a while ago about the points in time that Jacob visited out losties. Sayid in particular. He visited him after the losties had left the island as he was with his wife (whereas the others bar Hurley (not sure how he fits just yet, altho Jack seems fond of him and did plant the seed of going back to the Island in Jack) were visited before thier ‘first’ journey. The timing of his directions question to Sayid seemed odd too. It saved Sayid but not Nadia. This brought him into Ben’s ‘service’, and eventually back onto the Island. This is key for Jack, as I doubt he could have modified the bomb using Faraday’s instructions for detonation on impact or even removing the thermonuclear device.

    Remember in the pilot that Jack said he didn’t remember the crash that he just blacked out? And Kate said she remembered it all? Could be wrong but I’m leaning towards thinking that this was because it was Kate’s first visit but not Jack’s. On the ajira flight I think they all blacked out (well those who we know have been before).

    I’m wondering that maybe on a previous ‘game’ Sayid got hit by the car too, or for somehow saved Nadia, never worked for Ben and never came back to the Island, never helped Jack….
    Kate too (even though her Jacob visit was well before her ‘first visit) as her ‘support’ is very important to Jack. And Jack is on the Island as ‘he’s got work to do’ (according to his father).

    I’m probably just letting my mind wander a fair bit here, but the thought of Jacob repeating the ‘game’ seems good to me, and each time he’s finding out who the key players are, who the pawns are etc. etc.

    In Christianity there’s two extreme points of view. Calvanism (fate – no choice) and Arminianism (free will). I dislike either extreme and prefer to think that the ultimate end is decided but the journey from this A to B is variable. I think Jacob has been tweaking this journey each time and that there hasn’t been an ‘end’ yet.

    Thoughts please. And feel free to call me a dufus if you don’t like any of ramblings πŸ™‚

  4. I_Am_Jacob – i completely agree! if they introduce alternate timelines now i may actually cry! Everything that we have seen up until now may as well be erased..!

    stepstoenlightenment – I’ve always wondered why he went to Hurley and Sayid after the first crash.. My guess is that even though he touched all of them, he also gave them something – Sun and Jin = his blessing, Kate = lunch box, Sawyer = a pen, Jack = candy bar, Locke = life, Sayid = a second chance .. if he hadnt stopped Sayid, he would have been killed as well. But then again maybe it was some huge elaborate plan to get him back to the island the way you stated – through ben.. hopefull all this will be explained.

    I really like the rest of your thoughts.. quite hard to get my head around but what isnt in lost! haha! i dont quite understand the Jack having been on the island before though and Kate not?

    And i think your last paragraph says it all – The end is chosen but your life is what you do to get there.. and i think thats the whole point of Jacobs ‘game’, to make the end result his.

  5. I like your theory a lot I just wonder why Faraday didn’t consider this paradox when implementing his plan.

    I agree that Jughead does cause “The Incident” allowing the future to follow, but I am not sure where that leaves the ’77 losties.

    As for the ALT timeline, I can confidently say that it is going to happen, I just think it is going to represent a different version of “the game” and that at some point the two will converge.

  6. In regard to Jack being in the Island before:

    We’re obviously seeing the current game. In previous games I don’t think Kate or Sayid have been on the Island. But Jack has. In this game, Jacob’s recognised the need for both of them to be players in Jacks part – to ‘lead’ them to detonate the bomb. I just think it seems to be the way that if someone has previously visited the Island they blackout and ‘appear’ on the island whereas on your first visit you experience the crash. I could easily be proved here as there are no other accounts of expereiences that I’m aware of.

    I dunno… head hurts :-s

  7. stepstone,

    I like this idea. Maybe this is why Jack wakes up in the middle of the jungle and not on the beach, maybe this why he knows exactly where to run to find the wreckage.

    Only flaw is if that was the truth, Sun, Ben, Locke’s body, Lapidus, Ilana & Bram (probably) all would have flashed 2

  8. i see where your coming from now! good thought.. ive also read an opposite theory about kate – she was the only one who didnt black out because she’s been to the island before.. there are soooo many different ways people could go! But i do think maybe yours makes more sense as he was the one who convinced the whole team to detonate the bomb

  9. i think i love you guys. i was getting sick of all the reset and alt timeline theories. its like what miles says in the incident: do you guys realize that by trying to stop the incident, you are actually causing it? (no answer from anyone) Well… I’m glad you all thought this through.

    The past and future become dependent on each other once time travel occurs (to the past at least). It is simple, elegant, interconnected and beautiful. hope this comes to pass

  10. Joshchgs:
    Hmmm. Do we know that they didn’t? I don’t mean end up in the same year, I mean blackout? They found Ben to be injured but he did have injuries as he boarded the flight so it’s probable that these injuries have not been sustained by the crash.
    And I do like Sinsters idea of only the ones Locke actually asked ended up back in 1977. And I think that correlates with Sun, Ben and Lapidus.
    Can’t account for Ilana and her merry men though :-/

  11. Stepstone,

    I mean yeah we watched 316 go from night to day and successfully land on Hydra Island.

    Ceasar (god I hated that guy) was very concerned that people like “the fat guy with curly hair” disappeared off the plane.

    So it did not happen to Ben, Sun and Lapidus. It could just be the ones who Locke asked to go back who flashed but I think its really because Jack, Kate, Sayid & Hurley were not supposed to leave they were always meant to go back to ’77.

    Whether it was with Sawyer, Juliet, Miles & Faraday or on 316, but they were always in ’77 and the rest just landed on the island present day.

  12. I only like the Locke idea because it is true, in logic you would assume Sun was going to go with the rest of her 815 friends but she didnt.

    But the absence of Locke’s word doesn’t seem all that important.

    Now Jacob’s touch on the other hand does! And Sun was touched!

  13. Josh faraday did consider this paradox before his plan went into action and that’s why he said the past couldn’t be changed but then when he returned to the island from ann harbour he said he hadn’t considered the varibles which were the losties that flashed. He said that because it was their present they were in and not their past the rules didn’t apply and maybe they could change the future.
    On a side note I am also a firm belever in whatever happenend happenend and hope they don’t go to alt timelines.

  14. On the alt timeline idea – I was once very anti it, the grandfather paradox is a pretty huge thing to write around and Damon and Carlton have said that there are no paradoxes. I think it was Yojimbo who wrote an interesting theory on this (I’d try and find it it’s quite good). There is obvious evidence in season 5 that the 2007 that Sun and Frank are in is not quite the same as it should be if seasons 1-4 palyed out again, so how do the changes happen? The idea is, that at the moment the bomb goes off, time is split in 2 (has been used by other sci-fi writers). One timeline where everything happens as we’ve seen it – it has to for the Losties to go back to 1977 to detonate Jughead. And another where the bomb goes off, the Swan isn’t built, no button pushing, no 815 crash…
    The island has special properties where artefacts from both timelines exist, where people from both timelines exist – 2 Locke bodies. I think that they will spend the first 6 or so episodes resloving the new timeline, course correcting and killing off those who had already died in the original timeline. Then they re-merge and the war really begins. I think they’ll deal with the doubles by killing Kate etc.. in the bomb blast so when they merge, we’ll have the Losties who didn’t crash. I think we’ll see Sun die in the 2nd timeline so that the Sun on the island with Frank is the only version and I think they’ll show us Locke’s body from the original timeline and him being alive and on the island through the 2nd timeline. This covers the grandfather paradox, the title of the first episode (LAX), 2 Lockes and how if the bomb did go off they haven’t killed most of the main characters.

  15. Are you seriously kidding me. The alternate time line does not violate the grandfather paradox. It is a way around the paradox. Both time lines still exist and always will (at least from 1977-2007). Shannon still dies on the island, Desmond still pushes the button. Only those events occur in just one of the two time lines. It doesn’t erase everything that happened. Those worried about that are really going to hate the way Lost ends anyway. There will be no happy ending.
    Since both time lines exist, Jack and company will go back in time from one time line.
    This DOES NOT create a grandfather paradox.
    It is a way around the paradox.

  16. I think you guys are overreacting over this proposed alt. timeline route. Everything in the past 5 seasons will become worthless? Really?
    If an alt. timeline does end up happening, it doesn’t need 2-3 seasons for the full story of it to be told. An alt. timeline will only be a glimpse as to what happened if 815 never crashed and will show how the characters’ lives will inevitably interact with one another off-island. Sure, it may be a bit hard to swallow, but it gives us perspective as to what didn’t end up happening from the beginning of the series, which will only end up taking several episodes.
    I think we’ll be seeing the alt. timeline, the events in 2007 post-Jacob, and what happened to the losties after the bomb……so three different time periods. In the end, all of them will converge somehow.

  17. just trying to sort this alt thing out:

    if an alt is created in 1977 which is in fact the same incident that always happened then the alt also always happened.
    i am assuming that because the island and the real world are in line as far as year then the alt timeline in the real world also begins in 1977 and any event before that remains the same.
    so you have two timelines running parallel to each other from 1977 to 2007. anything beyond 2007 is the future and remains unknown even to someone like eloise to told penny that for the first time in a long time she didn’t know what would happen.
    so clearly there is a reason why in 2007 the future is unknown, therefore i will assume that the two timelines merge together at a particular point in 2007 and that merge always happened.
    after that exact point in time though, nobody knows what the heck is going on and the ‘game/war’ becomes equal.

  18. My thinking is the alternate time line starts in 1977 and is still running in 2007, which is as far in the future as we’ve seen.
    I don’t know if the two will merge, or if one time line just wins. Maybe the war is between the two time lines.
    Either way, I believe the existence of two time lines must be reconciled or course corrected back to one time line.

  19. To run…, sort of in the way the timelines will run and merge, yes I think that’s why Eloise doesn’t know what’s coming next, the merge is unpredicatble because it hasn’t happened that way. I don’t think the bomb is the incident we’ve been hearing about throughout Lost, the dates and info on the blast wall map don’t match up with what we saw happen. I think Daniel was right in that the people are the variables, if Juliet hadn’t changed her mind and decided to back Jack, the bomb wouldn’t have gone off. It wasn’t jack doing anything differently to what he would have done (he would have always tried to ‘fix’ it by blowing everyone up, that’s what Jack does) – it was Juliet having a brain snap over Kate that has lead to a change, the alt timeline is new and not WHH, that’s why the future is now ‘unseeable’ it’s a perfect storytelling device too – now the person who could predict the future can’t, how this ends is anyone’s guess.
    Thanks for the positive thoughts. Ban, I think we are quite on the same page with this stuff πŸ˜‰

  20. On evidence – when Ajira is coming into the island, the numbers are clearly heard over the radio and they don’t have anymore flashes so that is in 2007. In the timeline we have already seen the numbers recording hasn’t played since Rousseau changed in in the 80s. There has been a lot of talk about the Dharmaville that Sun and Frank visit. I don’t know if you’ve got access to look back at old episodes easily – I’ve got them on my computer so I can jump from one to another really easily and there are some huge clues there. The set dressing has been very purposeful in showing that the 2007 DV is the same as 1077 DV just abandoned – where have the others been- the evidence of their time in DV has been completely erased. I can go into more detail if you want, or I’ll try to find the theory I went through some of it more specifically.
    Parts of Daniel’s diary were also found on Hydra island when Ceasar was going through Ben’s desk.
    If something like an alt timeline doesn’t happen then we have had two of the Losties back in 1977 on the island since season 1, just 30 years older and that hasn’t been signposted anywhere.

  21. i have the dvds and ive gone over the sun/lapidus dharmaville scene and i noticed a lot of changes so i understand what youre talking about there. I just cant see how they can introduce an alt. timeline this late in the series while summing up and explaining (and merging as iv read thats what many people believe) in the matter of a couple of episodes. it seems to me that its a huge jump that would need time to be explained and explored.

  22. Lilboy, for evidence of an alt timeline perhaps you should consider why there were dirty clothed Others and clean clothed Others as was pointed out on a recent post? Just a lil food for thought.

  23. When Sun and Lapidus are in Dharmaville 2007, they go into Ben’s house.

    I can’t remember but are there still pictures of Alex on the wall and such?

    I know the risk board is still in place.

    The alt time line shit confuses me i will let you guys sort it out!

  24. hmmm… i do have all of the dvds so i’ll go back and try to find some of this… i don’t remember hearing the numbers as ajira was coming in.
    and as far as the dharma ville is concerned, are you talking about the building with the dharma initiative pictures, because that’s not in the actual town. it’s a separate building that is near the sub dock, which is not near the town but is in fact a short drive/walk away.
    but when ben and flocke show up in dharma ville and see sun and frank, they are in ben’s house. it has all of the same decorations, the same books on the shelf, the risk board is still sitting there, and i seem to remember there even being a picture of he and alex… so it doesn’t seem to me like the others were never there, it just seems to me like they never bothered with using the building by the dock for some reason or another.
    also, all of the evidence you’ve mentioned so far is just from the last few episodes, is there any evidence from earlier seasons perhaps?
    and lastly, who are you talking about in your last paragraph, because i can’t think of any of the losties that have been on the island for 30 years.

  25. am i lost: there were a group of others in dharma ville (where they have washers and dryers) and there were a group of others at the temple, where i’m guessing they didn’t have washers and dryers…

  26. There can’t be any evidence from before the Ajira crash because that’s when the events leading up to the alt timeline started (with the guys flashing back to 1977). On my last paragraph, exactly – if we don’t get an alt timeline or something then Jack, Kate, Sawyer etc.. are still in 1977 on the island so unless they kill all the main characters there will be a 30 yr older version of these guys on the island – BUT THERE ISN’T, that’s my point – something changes.
    The room with the DI photos is in the middle of the village, it is where Kate, Hurley and Jack go to get there jumpsuits, in that scene it is clearly where all the houses are. It is also the same room that Kate was locked up in in 2004, the doors, windows and lightswitches are in exactly the same spot – the others did use that building.
    There are DI logos all over the doors of most of the buildings – not there in 2004 with the others.
    The Risk board is set up differently. I’m a little obsessice and actually drew the layout of the board when they left it in 2004, and then what we see in 2007. It is really different and they pointedly show it clearly. The continuity guys are really good, if they needed it to be the same it would be but the plates, cups, dice and pieces are very differently placed.
    They also showed DV in 1977 and DV in 2007 in the same episode so that we could see the similarities, they didn’t need to tell those two parts of the story in the same episode for any other reason.
    What if in the new timeline Ben stays with Dharma and it’s still his house.

  27. well, i’ll watch a few episodes tonight to see these things…
    as for ben still living with dharma and it still being his house, how would he have gotten alex?

  28. ah good thought LilBoy about Ben getting Alex, maybe he didn’t in Alt timeline, and that’s how the rules really weren’t broken when she died.. of course the alt timeline didnt start yet, but this whole thing is crazy with alt timeline theory

  29. Rousseau is still stranded on the island, gives birth, but something happens to her – she doesn’t replace the numbers with her recording so isn’t it possible that with the DI still around Ben could have found an abandoned baby Alex after Rousseau dies? Remember if time changes it changed from 1977, think about all the possible consequences of a bomb going off and how it may have affected the others, Richard, Ben, DI, the frenchies, Juliet (pre 2004), Widmore, Eloise and then through connections Penny, Des, Daniel, Annie, the purge as well as any Losties who have connections to the island or people from the island we don’t know about yet. If talk of the Shephards being others, how does it affect Claire and Jack?

  30. ok, i’ll admit that it is a slight possibility, but i think the whole alt timeline theory is a huge stretch and that most likely we should just look to Occam’s Razor for an explanation…
    still, i’m sitting down with some food and i’m going to watch all of the scenes you mentioned and i’ll see if i can find evidence of an alt timeline…

    also, just to clear things up, i think there may have been a misunderstanding… i don’t think that the losties in ’77 have been on the island the whole time, you’re right that would be ridiculous. but who’s to say that setting off the bomb didn’t send them back to the present? afterall, Faraday says that the energy pocket at the swan is about 300 times larger than the energy pocket at the orchid, and if turning a donkey wheel in the energy at the orchid can dislodge them in time, who’s to say that a nuke going off at the swan wouldn’t do the same, or something similar?

  31. “What if in the new timeline Ben stays with Dharma and it’s still his house.”

    Tas, a minute ago I was going to support this view, but right now I realize that I have a serious problem to figure out the different timelines/realities (if there are different timelines/realities).

    First, we have a timeline/reality (#1) known from the first seasons, taking place in 2004, where Ben have joined the Others and seems to have participated in a purge in the 80s(?). Here, Ben certainly doesn’t seem innocent. He seems to have a lot of unexplained knowledge about the Losties, but I will disregard from that now.

    Then we have a timeline/reality (#2) taking place in 2007 where a lot of things seem a little different. For example, Richard claims to have seen Saywer et al die (in an incident, purge or something else?). And it somehow seems that possibly Ben (i.e. a not yet seen version of Ben) stayed with the Dharmas. To me it seems fairly likely that this timeline is just the continuation of the 70s reality (#3) with Sawyer et al, where Faraday’s plan to destroy the anomaly (or the entire Island) didn’t succeed. If so, #2 and #3 are the same timeline/reality (#2/#3).

    Finally, we might have a timeline/reality (#4) where Faraday’s plan succeeded and the Oceanic 814 never crashed on the Island and instead landed safely at LAX in 2004. In this timeline/reality, Sayid never shot little Ben, so perhaps little Ben was never brought to Richard, and perhaps he never lost his innocence, whatever consequence that might have.

    What I can’t figure out is what happened to Ben in each one of these different timelines/realities. We know that in #3, Saywer and Kate brought innocent little Ben to Richard, who told them that Ben would lose his innocence, whatever that meant. Many of us probably thought that it meant that Ben would start to sympathize with the Others (and/or Smokey or MIB?)) rather than the Dharmas. But somehow it seems that Ben did this in #1 rather than in #2/#3.

    Where (and what) the heck was Ben in #2 and what happened to him in the Temple in #3?

  32. There has to be some stuff left for them to show in season 6. I’m fascinated by the huge possibilities of what happens if the bomb went off but it wasn’t supposed to, the ramifications are huge. The other thing is, and I think it was bought up by Yojimbo in his theory, the island seems to be demonstrating both timelines at once. Dharmaville was different but the losties beach camp was still there with Charlie’s ring. There will need to b an explaination of how two timelines are happening in the same place simultaneously. But is that any more difficult to buy into than wormholes to Tunisia and doubling bunnies?

  33. ok, i watched all the scenes i could find that showed dharma-ville…

    i will admit that the plates and cups around the risk board are different, but the only real difference i can see is one plate is at a different spot on the table and the glass of orange juice is missing. my theory on this is that the last time we saw that table was in season 4, maybe when they got to the end of filming for season 5, the person in charge of set decoration decided that putting a thirty year old glass of orange juice was just too difficult, what does thirty year old oj look like anyway? and so they left it out, maybe an animal got in there and knocked it off the table and moved a plate…

    also, i did hear the numbers this time as 316 was landing… and i don’t have an explanation for that one, you got me.

    as for the rec room/check-in building, i still maintain that they are different buildings… watch “Namaste” again, the building where they are checked in is in a very small clearing. it is large (about twice the size of the rec room that we see in 2004), with a bit more white trim on it than any of the other buildings and there are only two other buildings next to it, also there is no sidewalk or lawn leading up to the front door. the walls inside are painted gray.
    later in that same episode, they take the picture that goes up on the wall that christian shows to sun. this picture is indeed taken outside of the rec room in main dharma-ville… there are houses everywhere, everyone had time to change into their dharma jumpsuits, and the banner hanging over them says “Namaste New Recruits” and is hanging between two trees, while the banner outside the place that they check in says “Welcome New Recruits” and is hanging between a tree and the building.
    thus it would seem that they got checked in in one place, then taken to main dharma-ville where they were shown their new houses (Phil says, “So, you guys have the rest of the day to get acquainted with your security protocol handbooks, waiting in your new digs…”, allowed to change clothes, and given punch
    Meanwhile, in 2004, with the rec room… it’s about half the size, it is right in the middle of the town, there is a big sidewalk leading right up the the front door and it’s all yellow with a bit of white trim. the inside has wooden paneling.
    yes, the light switches, and fire hydrants/axes, etc. are in the same places, but that’s just organization. and yes, all of the buildings are still the same basic designs. but that just means track housing which entails hiring an architect to design one house, and a few other buildings, then building as many as you want, thus why all of the houses are exactly the same.
    the building that Sun and Frank go into is that larger building in which kate, jack, and hurley are checked in, and it is not in main dharma-ville.

    all of that being said, im sure they will have an explanation for the numbers being heard on 316.

    i understand the alt timeline theory now, thank you for the clarification at least, and it certainly gave me some things to think about. I still don’t believe it though… it just seems to me that since all of the evidence in the last few episodes of season 5, it’s too much to introduce and wrap up in a few episodes in the beginning of season 6. and it seems unnecessary seeing as im sure they can find a way to get the ’77 crew back to the present without an alt timeline so that they can continue with the war that we all know is coming…

    as for richard seeing them all die, it would seem likely to me that he followed them to the swan so he could see what happened with this bomb he gave them. he saw the bomb go off, a big explosion, and all of the losties from ’77 were gone… thus he assumed them dead, when in reality they went through time, again.

    and i think they will have PLENTY of things to show in season six without having to throw in 6-7 whole episodes devoted to an alt timeline, or more excessive time traveling, or anything else…

  34. They are different rooms in the same building. In Namaste the building that they park in front of has a huge stone chimmney, we see the same chimmney in the buidling that Sun and frank go into, therefore the building that has the inoculations sign is in the building with the chimmney – but that room has no fireplace and a wall with no windows, but 2 entrances (on either side). Kate is taken to the same room that Sawyer is taken in 1974 after saving Amy, that room as a huge stone fireplace which can be seen in LaFleur and The man from Tallahasse when Kate is in the room (at the end of the scene with Jack telling her he’s leaving) and the opposite wall with no windows. The two rooms are next to each other in the building with the stone chimmney. In Left behind we see that Kate’s building is in the main DV when she looks out the window. Because that room has a stone fireplace, the building with the stone chimmney must also be in the main DV.
    Also, why would they need to combie van recruits from the dock to an area at the dock?? (People were combied to the reception in Namaste) and why would you have a room with games tables and a fireplace down at the docks when everyone lives further off the beach?
    There is one Dharmaville and we’ve seen it in a number of different timelines. In 2007 it is like the others never lived there.
    On the point of spending time on an alt timeline I’m working on a theory which puts together my thoughts on that a bit more ordered.

  35. Comicon videos? Casting news? It would be great if they are fooling us. I don’t think they are. They released this stuff in order to soften the blow it will be for some of you. Now even all of you who are against it or don’t want to believe it will know it’s possible. And maybe you won’t be so pissed when it comes to pass.
    If they really wanted to shock us, they would just spring the alternate time line on us with no off season clues.
    I make this statement with no actual idea of scripts or filming. Only comicon videos and casting news.

  36. back to a MUCH earlier point (lol) about there being no paradoxes, there clearly is..

    #1 say the bomb isnt the incident, it just kills them all – Bomb explodes, no hatch gets built, theres no Desmond or buttons to be pushed, this means there is no crash and everyone safely arrives in LAX.

    bomb, no hatch, No Desmond to fail and push the button, no crash, no losties land on the island, no going to 1977 to detonate the bomb, therefore the hatch gets built, Desmond fails to push the button, theres a crash.

    #2 the compass.
    Richard gave Locke the compass in a time jump, telling him to give it back next time they meet because he wont recognise him. Then when Locke jumped back to the 50’s he gave the compass back to Richard.
    So where does the compass originate from?

    Everything on lost is in a timeloop.

    The compass is stuck in a timeloop because Richard has it in the 50’s then gives it to Locke in the 80’s, in 2007 Locke then jumps back to the 50’s and gives it to Richard and the same loop will carry on.

    If Jughead detonates, it will prevent the building of the hatch, if the hatch is not built 815 won’t crash and therefore Jughead wont explode. If Jughead doesnt explode, the hatch will get built.

    Hatch is built, Desmond doesnt press the numbers, 815 does crash. 815 Crashing results in Jughead detonation. If Jughead detonates, it will prevent the building of the hatch..

    Its all just one constant loop.

  37. yes, loop not as in everything resets but that future events through time travel cause past events to occur, and like normal time flow past events cause future events to occur.

  38. alright tas. i sitll think they are two seperate buildings, there’s no reason that they couldn’t build two buildings with chimmneys… and maybe they had to be transported from the dock because they were drugged after coming off the sub…

    still, i’m just going to agree to disagree with you on this. we’ll see in a few weeks whether there is an alt timeline or not.

  39. The whole reason that alternate time lines were invented as a possible consequence of time travel is in or to AVOID paradox.
    The second time line does not erase the first time line. Desmond still pushes the button and causes 815 to crash and on and on. But it only happens in one time line. In the other time line it doesn’t happen.
    You see, the past does not require both versions of 815 to crash, only one version.
    Ta Da, no paradox. Surely you can understand this.

  40. A second time line combined with the islands specialness can then be used to explain the whispers. They are simply the other time line bleeding into the first one. Maybe some of the apparitions are also because of this, although obviously some are not.
    Maybe the reason some people flashed and others didn’t was due to some being of another time line.

  41. OK, I just read this whole thing during my lunch break, and it provided much entertainment. However, now my brain hurts.

    Ban, all the points you’re making about plot up to this point have me convinced…but what comicon news and casting news are you referring to that supports your theory?

  42. I think this whole discussion is rehashing one that we had a while ago. Damon and Carlton have commented in the podcasts how it gave them big headaches trying to avoid paradoxes in Season 5. If you’re into this thread, please do read my theory called “Alt Timeline Started with Ajira”. It’s incredibly relevant and clears up a lot of this discussion.

    I also thought that it would be lame if S6 reset things and erased five seasons of the show. But there were numerous other things in the show that didn’t make sense that needed resolving. Like what’s the deal with 2 Lockes, what are the deal with these Dharmaville changes, why is Sun in the present, and so on.

    Importantly, one thing that many non-writers don’t think to deconstruct, is that the story arcs need to make sense. Certain things are set up to have significance. Bad writing = “and then this happened, and then this happened, and so on….” So when you start to rule out things the writers SIMPLY WOULDN’T DO, you start to see where they could be creating something that ties things together in a cool way.

    If you read my theory you’ll see that Whatever Happened Happened, but so did a bunch of other stuff. IT HAS TO. Otherwise other things don’t make sense.

    What Tas is on about with Dharmaville is dead on. Talk about Occam’s Razor! We’ve never had it inferred that there is a “Dharmaville East” or whatever. It’s just one “town”. Between Tas and myself and BanLinus, we’ve given evidence from the show of many things in order to create theories that explain what we’ve seen. What of all the Dharma signage that we have never seen outide of the 70s before and is really prominent on the very first visit in 2007? The show has created an inferred space one town, and provides no other inference of a second one.

    The reason I haven’t posted much since I wrote the Ajira thread is that I have yet to read anything that explains it in a way that makes for a solid argument. And at the same time, the only way for that argument to be disproven is for the set dressers to have been very sloppy plus for the writers to have purposely put the wrong audio track in there that Frank and his co-pilot hear.

  43. BanLinus, what you are saying may in fact be true and quite plausible. I think the major gripe people, including myself, have with this is why has it taken 6 seasons to show an alternate time line? One time line takes 5 seasons to show but the alternate one takes only one season? Poor planning on the writers part maybe?

    Surely the writers didn’t have to drag us through 5 seasons of Lost to then say ‘you know what, all that you’ve seen is gonna change with an alternate time line’. Lost could have been condensed to just a few seasons if this was the case instead of tagging an alternate time line series right on at the end.

    I’m just praying to god that series 6 does tie in with events we have already seen and follows on instead of going back to the beginning or everything changing. However, after reading some of the spoilers (which i know may not be true), the omens don’t look too promising. The only way this discussion will end is when February comes round to probably prove every single one of us wrong anyway!

  44. I_Am_Jacob, who knows, perhaps the timelines in season 6 will play nicely (and hopefully mindblowingly) together with what we have seen in earlier seasons.

    For example, I think I read a theory somewhere where someone pointed out that Kate on the Island initially didn’t know how to unload a gun, whereas in her flashbacks she seemed to know how to handle a gun. The theory was that the flashback wasn’t actually a flashback but a flashforward, where Kate is robbing a bank in order to try to get back to the Island. That could be an event in the new timeline. According to the same theory, “the only man she ever loved” (who she claims to have killed) would be Aaron.

  45. Nah she was talking about Tommy Brennan.

    Thats the little boy she gets caught stealing the lunchbox with. They use the lunchbox as a time capsule and he puts the toy plane inside.

    When Kate is on the run she goes to him for help and he schedules a fake MRI so Kate can see her Mother.

    They dig up the time capsule which has the toy plane inside. Tommy tries to help her escape, but he catches one of the bullets meant for her.

    Sorry, dead.

  46. why would you put the whispers to an alternate timeline when they are significant to certain people for exmaple when Sawyer could hear ‘It’ll come back around’. I dont think that would have anything to do with an alt. timeline.
    Also when Ben takes Alex he tells Rousseau whenever she hears whispers to run the other way – again what has that got to do with alt. timelines..

    i can understand this alt. timeline stuff but I’ve chosen not to lean that way .. not because im closed minded but because its my own opinion. If the alt. timeline does happen (which many of you seem positive it will) then i wont be disappointed, I’d just prefer it to not as its introducing something huge and new so late in. But what happens, happens.

  47. Yojimbo.
    Just read your Ajira thread and I’m lovin it. Question:

    Do you think the bomb going off could explain the two skeletons found seasons ago? Maybe even the pile of sleketons that Ben took Locke to? Albeit an alternate one perhaps as Horace was in there (was it Horace? not done a re-watch). But I’m not too convinced with this part.

    I personally think that up until Jack has Kate and Sayid on board (maybe other ppl too) the Island was trapped in a loop as the bomb could not be detonated. Jacobs been working to break this loop by trying to guide/influence Jack and co to the place where they can detonate the bomb and therefore creating an alt timeline, a different scenario. Therefore in the 2007 we’ve just seen, the island will contain things from this scenario (dead bodies, skeletons, empty Dharmaville houses with no sign of the Others) and also contain things from another scenario – no bomb but an unsafe nuclear device and heaps of elecrromagnetism. Swan gets built yada yada yada.
    Makes sense to me. But that might not be saying much πŸ˜€

  48. Joshcgs, right, I forgot all that. So perhaps Kate was just faking not being used to guns.

    Nevertheless, the main point was that perhaps many of the things we’ve seen in earlier seasons will play nicely into the timelines of season 6.

    There are still many question marks from earlier seasons that time travelling and new timelines could possibly explain. What man was Sarah seeing? Another version of Jack? There are endless possibilities!

  49. I do not personally like the idea of an alternate time line. Even though I”m sure the writers will make it compelling if that’s the way they go.
    I also agree that some of the whispers seem to be very personal to those that hear them. But some of them seem as though it is real conversation between characters, some unfamiliar characters.
    Interviews with Cuse and Lindeloff have them referring to a new storytelling device that will be used for about 1/3 of the season. I think that device will be an alternate time line.
    I think somehow by about half way through the season we will be back to our same old characters.
    There may actually be very little action after Jacob is killed. We may not get Jacob and MIB again till the season finale.

  50. 1) Ban: you are right, i think that even if the writers do the alt timeline, i won’t necessarily be happy, but i’m sure they’ll do it well. as for the MIB and jacob thing, i just realized something and came up with a theory that i’ll post in the next few days that you may find interesting, it’s about Charlotte’s body.

    2) ilieinthesahdow: we see the man that Sarah has been seeing. he is a co-corker of hers, jack spies on them at the school that they work at, and in jack’s flashforward Sarah’s new man drives her to the hospital to see Jack.

    3) SawyerGirl45: everything you have posted on this thread… i couldn’t agree more.

    4) Yojimbo: I simply think that the alt timeline is unnecessary for the writers to explain all of the evidence that you have brought forth. I still have evidence against everything you said, but I don’t want to continue this debate.

  51. If the show does use an alternative timeline the seeds were planted in season five with the differences we see in the Dharma village and such, so we can say we already have had one season of alt time. But, the writers already changed how we view everything and write our theories in less than five minutes of film with the conversation between Jacob and MIB on the beach. There is no reason the show can’t take another radical shift.

  52. @Stepstoenlightenment – I think the skeletons are simply Rose and Bernard.

    @BanLinus – I agree. I think the first 6 or so eps will have the losties in a “Desmond-state” of alternate reality. They are able to see “options”

    @LilBoyBlue – It was just a statement that most people that don’t think from a writer’s perspective because, well, why would they? But too often I see arguments without basis but plenty of forthrightness, which I have a problem with.

    It’s ok for people to disagree. If you do have evidence against what I’m saying, then that’s a shame that you won’t post it and stand up for what you have to say.

    But to respond to your point, there is a big difference between the writers “having to explain” these little things and them being indicative of a causality going on.

  53. @ Roland – Absolutely. Based on their normal pattern, it wouldn’t surprise me if they don’t directly “answer” the end of S5 at all until at least an ep or 2 into S6.

    Instead, we’ll get another WTF? moment, followed by a different perspective being introduced.

  54. LilBoyBlue42, ok, perhaps there are no unanswered questions that can be answered by time traveling and new timelines then. πŸ˜‰

    But, damn it, I want to know what that orange in Locke’s mouth was all about.

  55. hey guys, i’m back… sorry about that outburst yesterday, i had the king of jackasses as a client, but i couldn’t take it out on him without losign his business, so i released my stress here…
    my bad…
    nonetheless, i’m not going to continue the debate here, because i figure i’ll end up typing my whole theory here, and it will be disjointed and such… so i’d rather wait until this weekend and type my whole theory on this matter and post it in a nice, organized manner.
    again, sorry for the outburst thingy, i was having a REALLY bad day. still, no excuse.
    I’ll talk to you all about the alt timeline theory on my next theory.

  56. Hey everyone. First of all i wanted to thank all of you to give me a nice read every day on my way to work. I just wanted to give a small comment on the alt. Timelines.

    I really hope they don’t do it. Somehow it seems a bit too cheap… eventhough as some of you said, that tgey would reset the last 5 seasons with introducing alternative timelines is not necessarily true. The whole show until now could have shown us alt. Timelines… and only at the end of season 6 we figure that out, what makes us rewatch the whole thingy again to find out which timeline is shown inwhich episode or flashback.

    This, i think, is something the producers will go for… but please dont let it be different timelines… 26 days to go

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