Why Ben can’t kill Widmore
I have been troubled by the conversation between Ben and Widmore ever since watching the episode ‘The Economist’.
Widmore asks Ben if Ben is there to kill him. Ben’s response is, ‘we both know I can’t do that’, leading the viewers to believe the reason has to do with ‘the rules’ they are playing by.
I suggest there is another reason why Ben can’t kill Widmore. We see Michael in New York, make several attempts to take his own life, unsuccessfully. We later learned from the conversation between Tom and Michael, why Michael was unable to succeed. Tom tells Michael that ‘The island won’t let you die, until its ready to’.
One other example of this, is when Jack is on the bridge, contemplating jumping off of it. At the precise moment he decides he is going to jump, an accident occurs, rendering him unable to continue as planned, and provide rescue to the injured inhabitants of the vehicle.
In my opinion, Widmore was far too cavalier when he made this comment to Ben. For a man who thought Ben was there to kill him, he showed absolutely no concern. Considering Widmore’s vast wealth, and his total dedication to finding ‘the island’, his reaction was completely contradictory. This leads me to believe Widmore’s remark was tongue-in-cheek. He knew Ben couldn’t kill him and why. The same analogy would apply to Ben.
It is clear both men are tied to ‘the island’, and ‘the island’ won’t allow either of them to die, until its ready to.
Tell me what ya think.
i agree…with a but. Just the simple concept that he asked ben if he was there to kill him threw me off a little. There was no concern after ben responded. But do you think that part of the ‘game’ being played may involve a winning scenario in which if one of them does something to allow the possibility that the other could be killed?
also biatch, i found it very odd that there was no explanation needed as to what happened to bens daughter. Widmore just already knows. My only idea is due to the fact it is the ‘future’ and widmore found out sometime in between.
Oh, AES I do like your thoughts about the ‘game’ and the possibility of a winning scenario allowing one to kill the other. That makes sense.
Also, Widmore did know about Alex being killed. Considering, everyone with the exception of Lapidus, Dan, Miles and Charlotte being killed from the ‘freighter’, how in the world does he know about it??
Was it part of his plan all along, or did somebody tell him? hmmm
dabs!!! Nice theory! I’m really intrigued by the fact that Whidmore knew about Alex’s death when earlier in the season we saw Abaddon ask Hurley “Are they still alive?” which I assume is a reference to his people who landed on the island. So if Abaddon (who hired all of them on behalf of Whidmore) doesn’t know what happened on the island, how does Whidmore?
I went back and checked the transcripts of “The Shape of Things to Come” just to make sure he did in fact know and it does sound as if he knew. Here’s the complete dialog between Ben and Charles.
BEN: Wake up, Charles.
(Charles Widmore pulls on a bedside lamp.)
WIDMORE: I wondered when you were gonna show up. I see you’ve been getting more sun.
BEN: Iraq is lovely this time of year. When did you start sleeping with a bottle of scotch by the bed?
WIDMORE: When the nightmares started.
(Widmore pulls back the covers and pours himself a glass of MacCutcheon.)
WIDMORE: Have you come here to kill me, Benjamin?
(Widmore sips the whisky.)
BEN: We both know I can’t do that.
WIDMORE: Then why are you here?
BEN: I’m here, Charles, because you murdered my daughter.
WIDMORE: Don’t stand there, looking at me with those horrible eyes of yours and lay the blame for the death of that poor girl on me, when we both know very well I didn’t murder her at all, Benjamin. You did.
BEN: No, that’s not true.
WIDOMRE. Yes, Benjamin, it is. You creep into my bedroom in the dead of night–like a rat–and have the audacity to pretend that you’re the victim?
(Widmore leans forward.)
WIDMORE: I know who you are, boy. What you are. I know that everything you have you took from me. So… Once again I ask you: Why are you here?
BEN: I’m here, Charles, to tell you that I’m going to kill your daughter. Penelope, is it? And once she’s gone… once she’s dead… then you’ll understand how I feel. And you’ll wish you hadn’t changed the rules.
(Widmore shifts in his bed.)
WIDMORE: You’ll never find her.
(Ben turns to leave.)
WIDMORE: That island’s mine, Benjamin. It always was. It will be again.
BEN: (Turning) But you’ll never find it.
WIDMORE: Then I suppose the hunt is on for both of us.
BEN: I suppose it is. Sleep tight, Charles.
(Ben leaves, pulling the door shut behind him.)
Sounds good dabiatchishere. No point in trying to kill eachother when the island won’t let it happen.
Good catch in Widmores sarcasm!
Anxious for when the island is ready to see one of them to their end.
Jukin, thanks for your input on Abbadon, which raises more questions. I initially interpreted Abbadon’s remarks to Hurley as an inquiry into the remaining ‘losties’ still being alive. I never considered he could be referring to any of the ‘freighter’ people. Nice catch!
Chillax, I have bought into Ben’s story that he is one of ‘the good guys’, but now I’m not so sure again. Makes me wonder if Widmore was prepared for Keamy and crew to kill all of the islands inhabitants, just to capture Ben, if Ben is in fact a ‘good guy’. Time will tell. And, yes one of them is going to die at the hands of the other, eventually.
Wait a minute – something isn’t making sense here. Keamy was going to kill all of the islanders in order to capture Ben right? But the island won’t let anyone die until they’re finished their work (hope my boss never learns to do this!!).
If Locke, Hurley etc. can’t die until the island lets them why would Charles plan to try to murder the remaining castaways? Do the rules change for them when the island’s keepers change? And if Ben can’t die and I planned on capturing him and murdering everyone else, I think I’d make it simple and take out everyone via the purge. When Ben regained consciousness he’d be tied up and on the freighter along with anyone else the island resurrected. Sort of like the old line, “Kill everyone and let God sort them out” but with the island playing God. If Whidmore knows some of the people there can’t be killed, why would he set Keamey off on a mission he can’t complete?
LOL Jukin, remind me never to get on your bad side!
I think Keamy’s mission was only to capture Ben and take him from ‘the island’, back to Widmore, as opposed to killing him. If Widmore already had the location of ‘the island’, why did he want Ben off that island?
Had to be to thwart Ben’s ‘master plan’.
Ben’s own words indicate this to be the case, as Ben tells Sawyer and Hurley specifically the ‘freighter folks’ were there to capture him. I noted Ben never once says they are there to KILL him.
I am unclear on Keamy killing all of ‘the islands’ inhabitants, as it didn’t play out that way.
I do know, ‘the island’ made Jack ill with an appendicitis attack, because he wasn’t supposed to leave.
I guess we know very little about ‘the rules’ of the game these 2 men are engaged in, and what constitutes when your ‘time’ on ‘the island’ is effectively up.
How could YOU ever get on my bad side?
I have one thing to add. Everyone seems to just assume that Ben and Widmore can’t kill each other. However, it has only been explicitly stated in the show that Ben can’t kill Widmore. Who’s to say that the rule applies both ways?
thank you coolbeans, thank you very much, and i swear if i hear one person say ” maybe they are each others constants” im going to join hurley in the mental hospital
Jukin, just c.m.a. with you!
Cool Beans, you make a very good point. We don’t have any verification of Widmore not being able to kill Ben. Widmore may have wanted Ben taken alive from ‘the island’, for the sole purpose of extracting information from him, before he killed him.
AES, lol!! I promise you will not hear that statement from me!
biatch,may i call u biatch? I even though have onlly read a few of your posts do not expect that from you. But, unfortunatly i do expect it from someone, and…i just dont know how people can say that, it is absolutly (emzi, dont get mad, not trying to be derogatory) the stupidest theory ever. And that coming from a guy who on another site did a benjamin linus anagram and misspelled it.
Just to clarify, personally I do think that Widmore can’t kill Ben either. However, being a man of science, I’m uncomfortable with the fact that we haven’t seen any clarification of that yet.
Oh, and A.E.S., “dab” is the usual shortened form.
AES, any variation of my name is cool. Most people call me dab as CoolBeans states.
CoolBeans, I’m hoping Season 5 clarifies it for us.
Hey dabaroo good to see you (or at least read you posting again).
I think that the scenario you describe is possible.
If the island would not let michael go until Christian called time and deemed michael had served his purpose, any guesses as to what purpose widmore might serve?
Hey retro, good to be posting again, and what an excellent question!
I am currently formulating a theory about Widmore/Ben and their connection to ‘the island’ and Jacob.
Without speculating too much, I can guess Widmore and Ben are the two sides which are battling for control over ‘the island’. And the ‘world’ for that matter.
They are locked in direct opposition of one another. Who is on the side of ‘good’ or ‘bad’ is once again being tossed around in my mind and which side Widmore/Ben are truly representing. I believe ‘the island’ is being used for the ‘ultimate showdown’. “Armegeddon”, if you like.
I think a theory might get a ‘group’ of creative juices flowing on the topic.
I will try to get my thoughts together on something.
I’m feeling you. THAT is the theory i want to read!
retro, the theory will be based on what facts we do know, however little.
The remainder will be based upon conjecture and speculation, by applying logic and reason.
Hopefully, I can do it justice.
dabs, im calling you dabs now, and your gonna like it. Dabs, i truly cannot wait for your theory. I enjoy jabbin with you and you are a very logical theorist. Dont worry about doing justice, even if its not perfect, the key to a good theory is sparking interest and creating more with the help of others. I am excited for that theory. :]
Personally, I’ve put all theories on hold now, as chances are the start of Season Five will blow them out of the water.
Damn that Darlton – they’re always one step ahead..
I’m watching “The Lie” right now…I dont think I’ll write another theory every again 🙂
AES, thank-you for your kind words, and the vote of support. I think you just secured your spot in ‘sweetheart’ heaven!
Cool Beans, I knew Darlton would come up with many, many surprises. I’ve been waiting for this night. They never fail to disappoint!
Retro, I know once you’ve had time to digest what was viewed tonight, your mind will start racing! I expect you will have some theories to dazzle us with!
Ben can’t kill Widmore because they meet in a point in time in the future, quite possibly on the Island.
username, the only problem with that, is Widmore speaks to Ben about what Ben has already taken from him. Past-tense. And, he intends to take back all Ben has stolen from him.
“The rules” were not made by either man. They were established by ‘the island’,itself.
PS: Meaning, ‘the island’ determines when they die!
What do we know about “the rules”
Hi cappayne, we know very little about them. All we know is Ben tells Widmore he changed the rules by killing Alex.
We also know Ben can’t kill Widmore, and presumably it’s the same that Widmore can’t kill Ben.
We know ‘the island’ won’t let you die until it’s ready to.
We know if you turn the frozen donkey wheel, you are not allowed to return to ‘the island’. Albeit, we know that both Widmore and Ben are trying to.
We don’t know who made the rules, or if the rules are ‘the island’s’ rules. Or, what other rules there are at present.
I think they cant die because of the whole time thing. They have been there before, thats the only rationale explanation. I think the anti-time loop people just dont like the sci-fi route the show is taking. No offence to these people, but if you watch any film or TV show that has a theme of time travel, things like this are very frequent; being unable to change things, kill yourself etc.
They know they cant die up to a certain point, that is why Ben is so cocksure because he knows he doesn’t die then…that is what the finale will be I expect, whether they go back to a certain point or if time continues (at least on the Island)
Hi Thomas5, This is a very good explanation that I wouldn’t discount.
I’m sure it does play a part in ‘the rules’.
Hi all i am new to the site so please bear with me. or if you’ve heard it before then just ignore me!
Would the rules Ben and Widmore were talking about not be the rules of time and space? The Island is after all a time machine, and Ben is now in the future is he not? Meaning that he is the only person not on the island who is displaced in time and can’t directly interfere?
Hi jonaldo, during the conversation between these two men, the nature of the rules was not discussed or disclosed.
I think, in part some of the rules apply to ‘time’ issues, and the other rules, are rules, they simply must adhere to. This also depends on whose rules they are playing by. We don’t have that information, yet.
I like your idea regarding Ben, and the rules. It likely is a factor.
The rules regarding interference apply to both on-island and off-island, interaction.