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Follow The Leader

May 7, 2009 by highbrow

What exactly did we learn last night? Were any questions answered for us or did we just get a bunch of new questions?

Richard is seeming less like the magical, know-it-all drag queen and more like he’s kind of faking it’ maybe not entirely but he’s definitely not been completely honest. We already saw him lie to Charles Widmore about what Jacob wants so it’s not really out of the question to think that maybe he’s lied about other stuff as well. Ben, it seems, was faking quite a bit as well and I think Richard might have been on to him’ Ben could have been onto Richard’s game as well and I think they may have been letting each other get away with it (instead of ruining it for both of them). Richard definitely has a problem taking orders from John.

Ben and Richard may be fakers but John Locke is starting to look like he doesn’t have leader and hero aspirations. I don’t think he’s at all interested in being a hero’ at least not to his FORMER people’ his people are the Others now and he doesn’t seem to care much about the Losties. He’s supposedly on his way to kill Jacob too! TWIST! Maybe Christian and Jacob are not on the same side because it seems that Locke has been receiving orders from Christian and all of a sudden he’s off to kill Jacob!?! Or maybe he’s just effing with Ben’ Or maybe, just maybe, this is exactly the help Jacob was asking for. Ben is a fake. He was never supposed to be the leader. Charles and Ellie may have been fakes as well… tricked by Richard perhaps. Jacob has been trapped by someone but he’s the true leader of the island. John is truely his replacement and to finish the hand over he needs to kill Jacob (thereby freeing him… helping him).

Then there’s Ben. To Richard ‘You have pretty eyes’ then to Locke ‘Have you noticed Richard’s eyes? Too much mascara’. Well, that’s not exactly how it went down but you get the point. He’s talking to Richard behind John’s back then he’s talking to John behind Richard’s back’ fortunately for John he doesn’t seem to be trusting Ben too much.

Jack is still off on his fool’s errand. ‘Oh, I’ll just figure out how to detonate the nuclear bomb. How hard can it be? Oh, and I think a 40,000lb bomb is about a four man lift, yeah, it’ll be fine” Seriously Jack? Not to mention that I think even past changers would agree that the change he’s trying to make would cause a paradox! This isn’t a small change! This is a complete undoing of absolutely everything we’ve seen! And he’s losing support too. Kate asks him why he wants to undo their relationship’ Jack doesn’t understand women apparently. Come on, Jack! Why can’t the show be about acceptance? Why does it have to be about changing the past? This is going to be a problem, you know’ here we are watching events in two different time frames (1977 and 2007) and Jack wants to undo not just last season but half of the current episode!?!

Phil confirmed for all of us that he’s a major douche when he hit Juliet. Horace proved that he’s an ineffectual, hippy, loser. Radzinsky continued his outstandingly annoying, paranoid behavior. Ummm, what else? Sawyer, Juliet and Kate are on the sub’ raise your hand if you think they’re actually going to leave the island. Yeah, that’s what I thought. They’re not going anywhere. Oh, by the way, I guess if you have a PC at home you can get a job doing special effects for Lost’ How about that scene with the sub pulling out from the dock! I can do better that that. I’m six and I’m a PC.

Jack, Sayid, Richard and Ellie will fail to change anything. Ellie, as we can see, is not making any new friends with her group. Two of her people have been killed and she doesn’t seem to care. She’s going to be exiled for this which is why we see her off the island later when she’s older. This is a prediction I guess and not really a part of the synopsis.

Did I miss anything? What else happened?

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highbrow

249 thoughts on “Follow The Leader”

  1. Did anyone else catch Ellie rifling through Daniel’s pockets when she took his book, looking for some ‘change’? I bet she did that to the Dharma people as she tossed them in that pit. (Daniels’ probably at the bottom.)

  2. john is crazy crazy now. he knows the exact timing of his own time skips. that was ultra surprising. i sense a power struggle coming soon, and i wonder where the other’s true allegiance lies (in the shadow of the statue? haha just kidding). so whats in the box??

    also…isn’t sayid consistently the man?? he is freakin awesome. everything he does is gold.

  3. John is crazy. Sayid is crazy too. I’m not a fan. Oh well.

    What I thought was interesting was that when they were flashing they actually flashed into the future and not just around in the past…

  5. well the others did move the bomb to where it is. perhaps they have primitive moving apparatus like the egyptians had (lots of circular wooden logs on which you roll the bomb)

  9. ALso, Richard claimed he “watched them all die”…although since he’s said that we’ve discovered he’s not above lieing to people on the island, so i’m not sure what i take that sentance to mean.

    Elloise was letting people die because she truly believes she can change the past and none of it would have happened. but if she does get exiled from the island because of this, that would indeed imply that trying to change things never worked.

  10. Yeah, and I don’t think it will work.

    I think Richard is just saying that he watched the DHARMA Initiative die… I don’t think he’s referring to Huley, Kate and Jack specifically… it’s still enough to freak out Sun but she’s ok for now because she still believes that Locke is trying to help her…

  11. what i can’t understand is how Richard, if he is not really working for the island, but is working for himself, and is not on the same side as the island, how does he remain ageless, and earn the role of “advisor”?? One would think that the island grants these types of powers, but apparently not??

  14. 5 seasons later and i know as much about Richard as i did the first time we saw him. Sometimes i have a love/hate relationship with this show….

  15. Yeah, I know what you mean! “Oh, tonight we’re gonna learn about this and that…” All we really learn is that there’s a bunch of stuff we didn’t even realize we don’t know!

  18. Yeah, relative to other Lost Season Five episodes it wasn’t great. There was lots of build up that just kind of ended right at the end…

  19. whenit first ended, i was all excited and thought the episode was kickass, but as soon as i sat back and really thought about it, we learned dick all. and i had about 96 new questions that i didnt’ have an answer for. bringing the grand total to 546,948,654

  20. You hear that Darlton!?! I hate you! I flippin’ hate you! Just go! Get the hell out of my life, I don’t need you!

    Wait, don’t go. I didn’t mean it.. I just get up set and I get all emotional, you know? It’s just because I care so much, really. Please, come back. Let’s just talk. I won’t blow up again, I mean it…

  21. bailey, I am totally with you on the love hate relationship. and ekolocation, I also thought that the episode was somewhat dissapointing. the only thing I learned is that Richard likes model ships.

    I have a question about the episode…f Jack did detonate the bomb and negated the energy or whatever, I can see how it makes sense that then the swan would not be built and their plane would not crash.

    but why would Jack tell Ellie that Daniel didn’t have to die? how would setting off an a-bomb change things that have already happened in 1977? I AM COMPLETELY CONFUSED! is the purpose of the a-bomb to completely reset time? or just to negate the energy? does jack think that one he sets this bomb off he’s going to be able to look at the past and pick and choose all the things he didn’t want to happen?

    or is Jack, as I suspect, just talking out his ass? any answers would be greatly appreciated.

  23. I am a newbie here and this may have been addressed before. I sort of like the theory that someone posted about the Charlotte/Carthage/Tunisia possibility. I am sure someone has thrown in an Atlantis theory here at some point. Does that tie in at all with a possible Tunisia/Phoenician connection? I do not have a DVR or Tivo so I was not able to rewatch the scene when they were time jumping. Was that statue of the era? Could Richard be an “advisor” from that ancient culture? To me the way they set him up as “advisor” implies that though he is there, he is not actually part of the Others and he sort of just hangs around throughout time.

  24. Unibrow, old buddy. You can’t keep me away for long. 🙂

    How about the opening scene with Richard putting together an old ship in the bottle? I think that is a major clue as to who Richard is. I am more and more leaning to the guy being dead.

    I think we already knew that the flashes sent the Losties into the future because of the shootout on the outriggers. (Will we see that soon?)

    I think crazy Locke is really going to help things happen the way they are ‘supposed’ to happen – as we saw with the flash. I loved him directing Richard, and YES, KNOWING that the flash was about to occur. How he knew that is a great mystery for now.

    It helps to counteract some of the ridiculous writing and computer effects.

    As I said last night, Jack flip flops worse than Brett Favre. Upon hearing from Daniel that they aren’t supposed to be in 1977, that Ellie isn’t to be trusted, and that Daniel’s mission is to detonate the H-bomb, Jack chooses option C, “Lets detonate the H-bomb!” So trust that bit of insight, BUT throw out everything else that Daniel said.

    Jack is EXTREMELY short-sighted for being a surgeon.

    Even his own appeal to Ellie, that she could undo shooting her son doesn’t make any sense. She has to send Daniel on the freighter in order to figure out how to undo the past. It’s like the compass. And it’s like John Locke becoming the leader of the Others. At some point, the beginning or the ’cause’ has to be made clear. I think that was one of the main points last night.

    As we saw Richard unsure about Locke’s leadership, the irony is that he was the one who told Locke that Locke was the leader…but it is because Locke told Richard.

    The compass was given some screen time, switching hands between Richard and Locke, and we see that it is once again at the direction of someone only because they know it will happen.

    As Jack attempts to change the past, the question is, “at what point in time does ‘change’ occur?” since in essence now, all the timelines overlap. So if he detonated the H-bomb, and the plane doesn’t crash, then Locke never flashes to 1954, and Daniel doesn’t ever get there to tell them to bury the bomb, which is the ‘key’ to undoing all of the past/future?

    Good luck Jack. Have fun when you realize that you got yourself into this mess, and in the meantime, alienated the one woman who stood by you through it all.

  25. Oh and yes, I will agree that overall it was disappointing…borderline insulting.

    To put the Sawyer-Juliet-Kate triangle on the sub (in the hopes of building some character drama) and then 5 minutes later show the preview-clip of all of them back on island was poor.

  27. Kim! Hurray! I saw you signed in but hadn’t seen a comment from you and I was beginning to get a bit dispondent. I even considered travelling to the past to do something that would make you leave a comment but then I realized that if I did that and it worked and you made a comment then I wouldn’t have any reason to go back in time to do that so you wouldn’t leave a comment and I’d have to go back in time and OH MY GOD I’VE BECOME JACK SHEPHARD!

    Jack. Is. Dumb. He hasn’t done anything that made sense in over a season! So far not even returning to the island has made sense (though I’m sure some good will eventually come of that). So thanks for nothing Jack. You too, Brett Favre. I’m a Lions fan and I don’t want you back in the NFC North! So quit talking with the Vikings!

    I had to go back in and change my theory about John killing Jacob. I think this is exactly what Jacob was asking him to do when he asked for help… so maybe John isn’t so crazy afterall. I think Richard and Ben might be in for some trouble if they end up coming face to face with Jacob.

  28. highbrow, I see you have attached some of your biting sarcasm and humour in this post! Well done!

    Although there wasn’t a lot of action in the episode, I think it has laid the groundwork for what is to follow next!

    I wasn’t at all disappointed to learn that Richard Alpert knows less than he does. If he were a knowledgeable advisor, he wouldn’t have made some of his past choices in leaders!

    John Locke may prove to be the only ‘real deal’, in the end!

  30. Dabs, agreed about Locke. He’s the first real deal since Jacob. His pilgrimage to see Jacob and kill him is the final step in the transfer of power from one leader to the next.

  31. at the beginning of the episode, I had a lot of hope for Jack. I’ve always wanted to like him as a character, and usually am able to tolerate him at the very least. I was starting to think that, in terms of the Ajira flight with all of its proxies, Jack was Locke– stuck in an endless cycle of wanting to help and feeling too sorry for himself to be effective. He obviously has changed a lot, and even Kate mentioned that Jack sounded just like him (meaning Locke)

    now I’m just praying that Claire doesn’t come back next season, because the Jack/Claire brother sister combo is going to put Shannon and Boone to shame, annoyingwise (though perhaps not incestually creepywise)

  32. HB- I left you a comment last night on my “Daniel’s body” post. Oh yes, I am back.

    Your comment reminded me how wonderfully inept Ben was last night. The guy has been shut DOWN by this new Locke. His attempts at manipulating are him grasping…grasping…It’s wonderful.

    I liked Hurley’s subtle “Sawyer always has a plan” reference – um, nope that was Ben, Hurley, but that Ben seems to be taken out of the game right now. So right now, there is absolutely NO PLAN.

    The only plan is from Locke to kill Jacob. All the other plans are non-plans. They’re just stupid. All the main characters have been reduced to ‘reactionary’, stunted, stuck people. The women especially have seemed mighty pathetic…Sun’s: “Where’s my husband?” whine is about done. Please, someone give the woman a NEW line to repeat!

  34. Absolutely a Joey hater! I have hopes for Stafford but the memory of Joey is giving me doubts… I’m excited about them picking up Larry Foote though! I liked watching him when he played for U of M…

    I wonder if Sawyer does have a plan. It’s obvious they don’t leave the island… even if they didn’t show that in the previews for next week. I doubt his whole plan is to to bet on the Steelers!

    Well, I’m off to a meeting.. back in a bit.

  35. This is just a general comment, but I really feel that very little has changed with Jack.

    His desire to ‘fix things’ is as prominent as it ever was! It will likely have the same results, it always did, as well.

    I know everyone is becoming increasingly annoyed with some of the characters, but I really feel, the episode is laying the ground for each of them to decide where they really stand.

    Once they have done this, and the divide is over, I believe you will see a re-grouping of sorts, amongst them.

    It is reminiscent of the old “divide and conquer”, saying!

    When things amp up, I am certain that we will not be disappointed!

  36. Something tells me that in the end LOST will suck. They are taking to long to give real answers to things which probably is a indication that they don’t have enough to back it up.

    Kate and Jack are two of the mos annoying characters on TV today. I wouldn’t miss them a single bit if the authors decided to kill both.

    Lock once again is proving to be just a sick paranoid man. Every time in the past that he had a “propose” he end up being deceived by something. And something tells me that this time it won’t be different.

    Richard and Ben are probably starting to realize that.

  37. nice post highbrow, disagree as it thought it was a good episode. any episode with john and ben is a good one in my opinion.

    here’s my take,

    richard’s making boats was a huge giveaway about his origin as kim noted. definitely a black rock guy if you ask me. i used to lean more towards the Egyptian origin, but not any more.

    john killing or help kill jacob is a dead give away towards a theory that is probably spot on. i don’t want to suggest which one, but it’s pretty famous. killing jacob is extremely important and a way out of something that may be happening.

  38. I’m with you, username!

    I don’t see why all the negativity for the episode!

    I think it was the perfect set-up episode actually!

    Or, maybe I’m just being ‘Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farms’ again! lol

  39. Glad someone brought up Black Rock. I was thinking the other day that there are an awful lot of things that get introduced only to sort of be forgotten (or explanation ignored completely) after a few episodes. Black Rock (has not been mentioned in a while, but seemed pretty significant at one time), the towering statue (shown but no explanation yet not to mention a group who seem intent on knowing what lies in the shadow of it), the temple when Richard takes young Ben (Who built it and for who? Temple clearly it is older than the 1950 military group with young Whidmore.) Polar bear experiments (Dropped in there several times, but for what? Just so we know there are cages that the Losties get held in?) A neighboring island (What reason for that?) Skeletons in a cave. (Who and why?) Etc. etc.

    I think I am giving up on theorizing and will just let the creators drag me along on this ride. Though I will still entertain theories I am fast coming to the conclusion that I don’t know given each new twist.

    I also hope the show is not a let down when it ends. Does anyone remember Twin Peaks and what a let down that was?

  40. I, for one, don’t need a whole hour of Lost dedicated solely to building me up for the season finale. This episode had questions but no answers.

    I’ll definitely buy that Richard came to the island on the Black Rock… It fits in my opinion. I think Richard came to the island on the Black Rock with his crew and he somehow trapped Jacob who was the islands leader at the time. I’m not sure why he’s taken the role of advisor and I’m not sure why he isn’t aging but I’m sure that will be addresses eventually.

  41. the producers have indicated recently that not all questions will be answered, they did promise a show on the numbers

    i do think we’ll see the back story with respect to the black rock, maybe we just missed it during one of the flashes and it will circle back somehow

    forgot to mention, loved the hurley / dr. chang scene. totally way cool.

    what else, also agree no way in fudge that sawyer is getting off that island so easily.

  42. highbrow,
    interesting thoughts on richard trapping jacob. i think jacob got “trapped” some other way. and i use the word trapped loosely.

    richard has time travelled or is dead – resurrected by the island, no other explanation can explain why he does not age.

  45. FYI: I did not see the offending post today, however the ‘admin’ has been removing posts that are spoilers, and unmarked.

    I have seen them disappear from the system on several occasions, after they have been posted. Especially, recently!

    Pointing the finger at a member is uncalled for IMO! Particularly, if you posted an unmarked spoiler!

    There is no big mystery on this site! The admin has stated from the beginning, her dislike of spoilers being posted. These sentiments have been echoed by other members!

    That is the risk you take, should anyone choose to post them!

    Thank-you for your understanding!

  46. Thomas, I don’t see anything or anyone being antagonistic…I truly think that Admin has made it clear about spoilers…so no one had to go to her. It’s just one of those things around here.

    You usually do add great posts around here, and that just happened to be one that got deleted. She’s deleted other things too, to protect the integrity of the site. Don’t take it personal. 🙂

    Now, back to the discussion…

    I think the ship was indeed the clue back to Black Rock, which is what leads me to believe that Richard is dead, the way that Christian is dead…and Jacob has manipulated/used/needed them both. (And now Locke, too.)

    I think Richard being dead or stuck in a ‘purgatory’ like state is interesting though, given that when Daniel had a gun pointed at him a) he looked concerned and b) Ellie felt the need to defend him. I don’t know if everyone (Ellie, Ben, etc) knows Richard’s origins…or it makes it possible that he’s not dead and I’m just speculating on the wrong clues.

  47. Kim, I agree. He’s dead and he’s from the Black Rock. Early on we got the impression that he was this superbeing who never aged and more importantly, knew everything there was to know about the island. I think we’re kind of stuck on that even though lately it hasn’t really seemed to be the case. I think that whatever power he has he took. If he’s been around from the beginning and if he’s been involved in time travelling before then he really shouldn’t be surprised when people he doesn’t recognize show up and say they know him!

    I think that Jacob was the leader of the island… or maybe the keeper of the island? the protector? Anyway, he was that when the Black Rock landed and Richard and his crew overthrew him. They imprisoned him somehow and took over. I can’t explain why Richard can’t be leader himself because we really don’t much information (still!). At some point Charles and Ellie show up and they take this “leader” position but I think they were just tricked into it… tricked into thinking they had power. Then Ben comes along and he catches on to the whole thing and starts invoking Jacob in front of the others who begin thinking that he can talk to him and eventually he takes over.

    Richard and Ben know that they’re just faking it. They let each other get away with it. Along comes John Locke who is the true replacement for Jacob. In order to take his place he must kill him. Enter in the “killing your father”. I don’t think its much of a stretch at all to say that Anthony Cooper isn’t Johns real father and even that Jacob could be someone we haven’t met yet who IS John’s real father.

    So Richard does this test and finds out that John is the real heir to Jacob and he gets pissed like we saw. He can’t kill John, possibly for the same reason he couldn’t kill Jacob and the same reason Ben and Charles can’t kill each other…

    I’m babbling.

  48. OK OK! Point taken, it wasn’t unmarked though, I said it was an Exclusive Jacob Casting post. but, yeh it wont happen again! much love! x

  49. No, not babbling. Speculating like me. 😉

    Perhaps the reason Richard couldn’t be leader is because he’s dead and he isn’t completely sure about what happens being in the dead state of existence. Maybe it’s one of the ‘rules’…because people will catch on in some way that you’re dead…like the not-aging thing. Heck, Richard could have created his “advisory” role the same way that Ben and Locke took on leadership.

    I think Richard’s surprise at Locke last night could have to do with Locke’s resurrected state. Locke is now an equivalent to Richard, in a way. Yet, Locke is acting with much more authority.

    Although, I do think one of the other undertones of last night was that for an ‘advisor’, Richard sure got dragged around a lot by the leaders off on crazy missions…like detonating the bomb, meeting Locke in a flash, going to take everyone to Jacob.

    It gave that much more meaning to the episode title.

    Oh, and I like the thought about who Jacob is and Anthony Cooper not being Locke’s dad. Nice line of thinking.

    I think there’s something else…but I’m forgetting at the moment. Blood sugar is low…

  50. I really like the idea of Richard and the Black Rock. Especially when you address that ship in a bottle thing.
    Another question is why he was dressed differently and with more hair when he met little ben in Season 3? However, im going to say that I doubt Locke’s Dad is Jacob, Im still more inclined to say Jacob is nobody’s relative or maybe Jack’s Grandfather, therefore Christian’s father.
    God, I can’t wait until next epsiode, partly because of the information I have which I put in my ‘spoiler’ post! 😉

  51. I’m having some fruit punch. I gave up pop because I’m fat but I need to get sugar into my system some how…

    Locke is dead too though. There is something though that Locke would have that Richard doesn’t (if this like of speculation is true) and that is a father/son relationship with Jacob.

  52. Why couldn’t Locke and Christian be brothers? Half-brothers at least? Why can’t Ray really be Jacob and be both Christian and Johns father?

  53. Yeah, thats a good point. I wonder how Richard could sense Locke was “different”? I wonder how they will end the finale? It will be a huge thing but I cant wait until next year to find out how this whole thing will end. The Monster, The Numbers, The Whispers, Time Travel, Jacob and the Cabin…..ARRRGHHH! It has been magical for us all watching this amazing, thought provoking show and I wonder what we will do when its gone???!

  54. good point highbrow. there are a lot of inter-connections with family ties. Look at Jack, Claire, Christian and Aaron. Another thing I want to understand is all the circumstances pre-815 in their everyday lives, is that just a fun part of the show or does it mean anything?

  55. Because that would also bring significance to Jack and lately that character is really starting to make some of us question why he’s around in the first place. He’s a blood relative. It does seem though that at least at some point the island was led by two people, not just one… and I think that the two together would represent science and faith which is exactly what Jack and John have been representing to us all along. It’s not the first time I’ve said it and I’m sure I’m not the first but maybe Jack and John were meant to lead together.

  56. They are almost the odd couple I guess. They needed each other for equilibrium. YEAH, you’ve won me over, I am definitley going to expect a reveal where we find out they are related somehow.

  57. So I’ll just keep piling on.

    Jack has switched himself over to the faith side, mostly at the urging of John Locke. Jack has seemed really out of place and confused ever since. I don’t think John understands the role Jack is supposed to fill. Jack is the man of science and he was doing a really great job of being just that… then John comes along and puts all this faith stuff into his head and suddenly Jack is a basketcase.

  59. what beautiful end to our row. maybe you are the jack to my john locke (or vice versa, i dont think anyone would elect themselves to be jack!)

  65. They both were California though…so relation is possible.

    It would be awesome if the “man” that Locke’s young mother Emily was dating was Ray.

  68. It’s interesting too how different the lives of John and Christian have been… John grew up in foster care then bounced from one disappointment to another. Christian apparently has a bit of a better life, gets well educated and becomes a world renown surgeon…

  69. That is also a very good point. one brother has this very acclaimed life as a surgeon, has a family etc. The other brother lives a rubbish life as a basic loner…only to come into his own on the island.

  71. I agree highbrow! AES had mentioned this aspect before as well, and we discussed it!

    I miss his ‘pointy little head’. lol Hope he returns soon!

    Thomas5, I think these comparisons liken a book about 2 brothers! I need AES to remind me of what it is unfortunately.

    I’m on brain overload right now!

  72. This is actually quite good.

    Things this post accomplished:

    – Locke and Jack are related.
    – RIchard came from the Black Rock ship and is dead.
    – Highbrow missed the Waycurious comment about Kate lifting Jughead, but this is indeed why Jack is screwed now. (Or not, depending on how you want to interpret that, I guess.)

    One question:

    How will all the ‘undead’ finally die? (Is it if Jacob is gone, they just disappear, kind of like the Orcs and Sauron?) Or do they get to continue to exist?

  73. Where’s the huge eye?

    I didn’t miss the shoulders joke…

    I should cancel beer and wings to continue this discussion… nah, that’s crazy! I hope when I check in on this post tomorrow I see like 400 comments and they’d all better say “wow, great job figuring out the entire show!”…

  74. That is crazy talk, don’t cancel. Have a Widmer Hefe. Just the thought of it makes me smile.

    I think what might really blow your mind tomorrow is if I figure out the delicate balance of agreeing somewhat with “Whatever Happened, Happened.” I have been anti-theory-posting lately, as they seem a dime a dozen, so I almost want to just write it out in your theory for people who actually take the time to read through all the nonsense about Paula Abdul to find the real gems. We’ll see.

    I have work to do and need to install MS Office for Mac on my computer. And still transfer my files. So, maybe I’ll get to it…

  75. Oh, and don’t think that I’ve forgotten about you being a Joey hater.

    Joey was my celebrity boyfriend for awhile. Yes, he sucked at Detroit. The whole situation sucked. But don’t hate on Joey. I know, you’re stubborn and will come up with all the reasons why he was terrible…but give the guy a break and you can’t change my mind.

  76. Oh, I know it was the Lions who ruined Joey Harrington. Still, I hate Joey. I’m sure he’s well liked over there though.

    But that’s in the past. This year we’re working on ruining Matthew Stafford.

    I’m out. Talk to you guys tomorrow.

  78. Yeah, enjoy your wings and beer.

    “This year we’re working on ruining Stafford…” — that’s funny.

    So is calling you Buddha belly.

    Ii have hit my unproductive wall apparently. Thanks guys!

  79. for some reason I have always thought that ben and locke were brothers….they both have a mom named emily, they were both premature, and even their rapport seems slightly brotherly (albeit in a twisted fratricidal way). but christian and locke makes sense too. either way, I have no doubt that we’re going to get at least one more big sibling reveal.

    On another note, Locke’s whole “I don’t care about the losties and I’m going to kill Jacob” thing kind of reminded me of a biblical quote…

    “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man

  80. Wow tha’s alot of reading to catch up! Maybe Richard was first mate to Captain Jacob that is why he is always just an advisor.

    I still think Locke is setting himself up. He will get to the cabin to find out Christian has already killed Jacob and taken that position! Christian is a man of science, too and would be better able to stand up to Locke than Jack ever could. It would kinda of be cool if they were somehow related. Both Christian and Locke are privy to info no one else seems to have. I always thought there were 2 factions on the island.

    But I still wouldn’t count on Richard being even older the Phoenicians were bigtime sailors, too.

  82. Angus, I wrote a theory awhile back about ‘the island, Tunisia, and the Phoenicians. I can’t recall the exact title, but you’ll likely find it.

    I believe it was around the end of February or beginning of March.

  83. Blasphemy…to say that last nights episode was rubbish, to take it as insulting. There wasnt enough answers, enough action? Must the entire show consist of answering questions and blowing things up to be exciting?
    Most of the greatest pieces of literature known to us, and many on the show are slow moving and boring, unless you really care about whats happeninng.
    Bottom line…choices were made last night, by many people.

    Kates abandonment of Jack…

    Juliet and Sawyer “having each others backs”, and ATTEMPTING an island leave.

    Jacks full blown belief of John. To not accept that, is to not accept John as being special…he knows what is going on, and seems to think for better or worse, that he may be able to stop something terrible by killing Jacob.

    Ben and Richard showed signs of a set up, possibly for Locke. They spoke alone, and quietly.

    Richard made a very good comment on the difference in John now, than three years ago.

    John sent Richard to fix his leg, and give him the compass…He is actually taking care of himself to make sure he gets “where he is supposed to be”.

    Dr Chang met with Miles, the decided that he is his son, and realized, and more importantly accepted the truth.

    Richards words of seeing the losties die could mean in the purge, or it could mean that they die someother way…regardless, I find it hard to believe that this will be the actual end for the losties, at least in the 70s….
    Elle Hawking realizing that Dan is her son, whom she is pregnant with at the moment of realization, means the world! She is genunly saddened by this, and seems as if she regrets it, even though it hasnt even occured in her timeline yet. I think Hawkings directions to Desmond in regards to changing the past, meant the exact opposite…I think she herself, is trying to fix something that she did a long time ago.

    I believe that Richard is not the puppetmaster of the others, but a puppet himself. He has been following Locke for almost the entire time. Locke sent him to his birth, Locke sent him to himself while injured to aquire the compass, in which he returned to Richard twenty someodd years ago…John is literally taking control of his destiny. He has found a way to beat the machine that is fate, by making things happen to himself, as Ben said, in a “out of body experience”. He is making sure that things go the way they did. How much more will we learn that John has had a hand in while timetravelling, nothing…everything?!?

    To say the other characters are put in the background is ludicrus. They are ALL, BEN, RICHARD, the Losties, everyone, at the mercy of John. He is the only one that knows what is happening, by ‘magic’, as some put it, or timetravel…hmmm…could they be the same based on the perspective of the audience?

    No, we didnt find out who Jacob is, or what the smoke monster is, or where Richard came from…there is sooooo much time for that. The entire season has been more or less dedicated to the notion of ‘change’, and change the past will. But to think that Jack, is crazy for believing a reincarnated, resurected, John Locke, who at this point has been spot on, with everything that he has said or done, with the exception of the idea to not press the button along time ago. Crazy for believing a man who was willing to die for others, whether the losties, the ‘others’, the planet, or everyone, is to call almost every religion in history crazy…which dont get me wrong, I do on a fairly normal basis…but this isnt some story of a resurected man in a book from years ago. This is a story of a man who did these things in front of our eyes, and stole some of our breaths while doing so. He predicts evrything from his own death, to finding answers in areas of the island unknown to almost everyone…from knowing complexities as where he would be in a particular timeperiod as another form of himself, to the simplicity of the exact moment it is going to rain….
    Jack is as crazy as evry person who believes in a religion in the world, and John is his ‘savior’.

    I must say, to find many disliked this episode is disheartening…it was possibly my favorite of the season, if not the show…but I say that too much.

    You dont have to like John or Jack, but just know, they are the ones who the ‘goodness’ of the show revolves around…they are the ones almost everyone turns to for leadership and advice, and they are the ones who are trying to save the lives of people who they feel died for nothing.

    Read every book on the lost booklist, or whatever they call it these days, and you will see the good vs evil moral, twisted in in some way….to believe they are crazy, or that we will find the Losties deaths a mere event that occures with no possible reason other than thats the way it happened sends chills down my spine.

    A magnificent episode that left me drooling for more, just as they have the entire show. Dont let fears of a hurried story or sudden useless characters fool you. The show is moving slower on purpose. Many great stories do before climax, a calm before the storm.

    And by the way, I am back, and fully ready to disagree almost entirely with most comments on this episode being poorly done, the characters being put on the back burner, and on the idea that change will not occure.

    Oh, and on the idea that spoilers are a good idea…might as well just skip next season, wait for the show to end, and watch the last episode….

    Btw, Dabsi, I am brain-racking, and am having trouble on your “brothers” book, although I have a few ideas, “Bad Twin”, “The island of Yesterday”…no, no, I know theyre not correct….help me out…

  84. I don’t have a lot to say about the episode (except that I didn’t hate it) but I do have to say to Highbrow that although I am not a Lions fan, I hope for both our sakes that the Lions do not ruin Stafford. You see, I am a University of Georgia fan (and alumnus) and our loss had better be SOMEBODY’s gain…..sigh…

  85. AES, so glad to have you back on board again! I was beginning to feel a little lost myself.

    I also couldn’t believe that people didn’t like the episode, and was disappointed that the observations I made about it, were not shared!

    That is not to detract from highbrow’s post, because he called it, the way he saw it. I would like to believe that other people took away something positive from this episode. I learned a lot.

    I also felt that John Locke proved he was in control and that Ben at least for once, is in John’s shadow, and that Richard is no match for him!

    Richard proved to me, at least, that he really never had much control to begin with. It was all smoke and mirrors with him.

    I totally agree with your comment about the episode, and all of your sentiments as well.

    I wish I could recall the book we were discussing way back when, but it has escaped my mind today. It has been a busy few days for me.

    I will definitely search my mind on that one! I can almost see our conversation so clearly, and yet cannot recall the book!

    Hopefully, it will come back to me soon!

    PS: Killer comment!

  86. Wow A.E.S. that is a heck of a post. I was thinking to myself that I might stop reading, or trying to come up with, theories and just enjoy the story like I do when I read a book. But I do enjoy everything I learn on here.

    Thanks for pointing out your other post Dabs. I had to do alot of searching to find a web page that explained zero point energy so that I could understand it! Are you saying that when they turn the donkey wheel the Island moves thru a wormhole or into another dimension or both?

    I’ve been thinking of a theory that I haven’t thought out completely, I keep coming up with reasons why it doesn’t work, that our world ended when Desmond failed to push the button. Flight 815 and the Island were transported into an other dimension.

  87. Oh yeah! I’m from Detroit, too. I have come to the conclusion that the Lions are cursed! We need someone to go back in time and stop the Ford family from buying them.

  88. So should I say welcome back AES, guns a blazin’ and all? 😉

    Seriously, it’s great to have you back around!!! Just don’t think that I won’t respond to some of the generalizations pointed my way. 😉 I love a good little row.

    Yes, I was borderline insulted at the way Jack was written for this episode. I WANT to like him, I have been bugged by him for a couple seasons now, so I WANT him to make sense. I don’t like how he chose random parts of what Daniel said to believe. It makes him seem shallow and short-sighted to me. (But like Dabs said, I believe, that nothing was out of character for him, which is why I was probably still bugged.) I know that he wants to make all the people that died come back, and for that I should think better of him, but I don’t like what the writers did with him for this episode. Have him weigh out the options a little more or something…

    One thing about Jack that you mentioned though, is that Jack is following crazy resurrected Locke. At this point, to Jack, Locke is dead and the last interaction he had with him alive was “Your father says hello…” and then the suicide note. I HOPE that Jack’s journey toward believing Locke about the island will have a great scene much like the foreshadowed Thomas & Jesus story.

    I’m going to assume that some of your generalizations were at other comments, so I’m not going to respond to all of it…

    The thing that bothers me – which is probably VERY much what the writers want – is that the Losties are all stuck…as I said, they don’t have a plan, they are reacting, they are not showing a lot of ‘strength’ in pulling it together. But that’s the thing, they are spread out in 2007 and 1977. Of course that tension HAS to exist. If they were all fine, as Sawyer & Juliet & Miles have been, playing house and all…then we wouldn’t have any need to move forward. From a literary standpoint I get that. It’s not that I personally need a lot of action, but I do need Sun to say something else. She had her moment of brilliance knocking Ben out…so that’s what I’m hoping for more of soon. I believe it is a ‘calm before the storm’ and the ‘waiting’ tension being passed on to us viewers. I just want to BELIEVE that Jack can do and be more than how they have portrayed him so far, since he is so integral.

    Anyone can disagree, because we can all hope for certain things when we pay as much attention as we do. It’s like me and coffee…when I pay my $3.50 for a drink, I want it the way I want it… 😉 So you can love it, I can be bugged at Jack and Sun, someone else can hate on Locke, but if we can’t live together we’re gonna die alone…. Sorry, I couldn’t resist… what I meant to say was, glad you’re back AES. 🙂

  90. I use “crazy” affectionately now if I talk about Locke. And I really like this new Locke much better than season past. I like how he disarmed (mentally) Ben…I like his confidence, his “all I wanted was an I’m sorry for killing you” line…

  91. Locke’s ability to know that he was flashing into the scene last night was a good mind bender… the whole “the island told me” made me excited because I’ve been trying to think about what the island is more lately than what Richard is or any of the Egyptian stuff that I know so little about. I want to think about “where are we?” again. Locke’s line was good for that.

  92. If you could see me drumming my fingers on this brand new keyboard of mine…waiting, waiting…building the tension… asking a question and then disappearing. A little too much like the show…

    And now, I will stop talking to myself. 🙂

  94. I remember that one time Christian said to Jack when he was a kid: “Don’t make decisions…you don’t have the stomach for it”-that is if he fails, maybe that comment was foreshadowing for the events now and not for him becoming a doctor?

  95. Is it just me or is “buried and encased in concrete” and “sitting on a cart in the middle of a very DAMP temple/cave” not at all in any way the same thing?

  96. Took me a half hour to read through all that. 🙂

    In my opinion, the episode was decent. As few of us keep refering to it, “the calm before the storm.” The season finale is two hours long, so it should be better as far as action goes.

    I have been waiting five seasons for Locke to come into his own. And while he is a little crazy (okay, more then a little), what HASN’T been crazy and strange on the island from day one? Locke has a right to be crazy :). And as far as I’m concerned, Jack is the craziest bird with all his, “I’m a doctor and I have no clue how to detonate a bomb but I’ll try it anyway to save the world and erase all of the ‘enough of it was pain’, even though I will fail.” Leave it to Jack, he only hears what he wants to hear. He hears the words ‘normal’ and ‘home’ in the same sentance and he’s like a golden retriever after a duck. Kate, at least, has now joined the circle of Jack-haters but still manages to create awkward situations (with James and Juliet) and annoy everybody else. I’m not really sure what purpose James and Juliet are in the show right now. At least we learned a bit more about Ben and Richard as they are together, and apparently setting Locke up. Plus we learned Locke wants to kill Jacob. I hope Jacob can shoot a gun better then Dan (“Do you have anything for a beginner?”), if he does it should be an exciting season finale.

    All in all, a good episode and lots of laughs (the sub scene, lol), and a good set up episode for the season finale.

  97. the more I think about it, the more I’m thinking that that suicide note– “I wish you had believed me”– is of vital importance. it’s the last known quote we have from “normal” (not resurrected) Locke, and could provide some background as to why Jack is so hell-bent on following Locke’s ideas now.

    magic box anyone?

  98. Welcome back, AES.

    You missed something about Jack when you were listing reasons that we should expect him to believe John. He doesn’t know about most of that stuff! All he knows is that John wanted to stay on the island then later he left the island then he committed suicide. Jack has no idea that John is resurrected or that he travelled in time or that he’s making his own destiny. He’s only gone over to Johns side out of desperation (and maybe a facsination with John’s huge man-boobs). If he did I’m sure he would have loads of well justified faith in John. The problem is though, as I touched on above, that having faith in John Locke is not, in my opinion, what Jack is supposed to do. That’s not the role he’s supposed to play. He is the man of science and John is the main of faith. They’re both needed to maintain balance.

    I think this episode, which I rated as good in a poll (where I rate most episodes as great) could be cut down to about 20 minutes without cutting anything important. Yes, there was action and drama and whatnot… and I don’t mind not gettting answers and I don’t mind getting more questions but it was slow and unproductive relative to other Lost episodes. To say that it’s ok because some literature that people generally enjoy is slow… I make my own opinions about literature and if I think it’s slow and I don’t like it then it really doesn’t matter what other people have thought about it.

  100. hahahahaaa…good point highbrow. I neglected to mention the asphyxiation splutters. i think there could be some VITAL clues contained there….;-)

  101. I’m sure there are. I could have sworn I heard him trying to tell us all of the secrets of the show… too bad all that came out was a gurgling sound…

  102. Highbrow, good point about Jack not knowing about Johns resurection…And when Kate said about him sounding like someone else…Im pretty sure that she was talking about Locke pre-resurection as well….thing is…John was ‘crazy’ talking upon first arrival to the island via 815…before resurection, before he knew everything he knows now, and before Jack was on his side. To say that Jack and John are crazy, is almost addmitting that Johns resurection is crazy…which as it is a little, it still occured. John told Jack his father said hello…this was after Jack saw Christian, dead I might add, on the island way back in season 1…and after he saw his dead father off island not so lond ago in season 4. Now, with that, and Johns message from Daddy, Jack who is and was always a man of faith seemingly turned into a man of science by his father, feels that Johns message of to not leave the isalnd begins to hold little more weight.
    To call Jack a man of science in my opinion is flat out wrong. Why…because he was a doctor and thought before he acted?
    He save Sarah through having faith. He saved Charlie after Ethan hung him to die, by not giving up in his belief that he could save him, even if it wasnt the most ‘scientific’ way, by beating on his chest. Jack performs his own miracles of sort through a different kind of faith…not religion, but faith. He believes he can save people, and it seems if people dont break his spirit, it is possible. He thrives on possitivity, and fails in negativity. He, himself must believe, regardless of who is telling him he is wrong, that he is capable of miracles of sort in order for them to be achieved. His short sightedness comes from believing a (unknowing to him) resurected man, whom knows more about the island than ANYONE we have seen so far. He is beginning to act on his faith, and not on everyone elses thought, much as John did in the past, and I believe that it is necessary for him to get passed listening to others to achieve the miraculous goals that are embedded in his mind by Locke.
    As a manipulative man once said…
    “Give the guy a break…he’s been through a lot.”

  103. Right, well… when I say Jack is supposed to be the man of science I’m not saying that he should become a strict atheist and worship Einstein by the light of a Bunsen burner. It is exceedingly obvious that Jack is out of his element. He’s out of place and he’s not comfortable being in the situation he’s in, trying to be the man he’s trying to be. He seemed much more comfortable before when he was the island leader and was basing his decisions on reason. That eventually didn’t work out well and in my opinion that was due to a lack of balance. John is eventually going to run into a similar problem because he’s basing his decisions on faith alone… and while that’s totally awesome for him eventually it’s not going to be totally awesome for all of his people.

    They need each other. They need to lead together. John the man of faith and his nephew Jack, the man of reason (I think “man of science” is a bit of a misnomer).

  108. It is vital that they are together, but reasoning and science are two very different things. From a religious standpoint reasoning is as simple as “a god wants something, therefor we do it”…

    Their standing together will have nothing to do with science. Science is the very evil that caused these problems…had the DI never infiltrated the island, there would be no time machine, swan, orchid station, Hbombs, or would 815 ever have crashed.
    Of course they have to stand together, but I dont believe that ‘science’ is the answer to any of their problems at this point.

    The balance lies in the differences, in the opposition, not in the same side. To have John and Jack together to achieve balance, is unbalancing the other side…which in my opinion is the wrong side, the DI. Jack must “believe” John, and come to help in his battle against the scientific/reasoning/logical side. John believes the unreasonable and illogical, the faith/miraculous side if you will, and these beliefs are part of why he is walking around on the island today.
    I think Jack must fully commit, if he hasnt already, to following John, and possibly even playing the role himself of island prodigy at some point.

  109. I think Richards time in service to the island is coming to a close soon. I think Locke will see to that… unless something changes with his attitude. He’s doing what he’s told, sure, but I have a feeling he doesn’t like it and he’s only doing it because he may have been put through somethink like Ben was when he was judged by smokie.

    And yes, I think that leadership was supposed to be help by two people like Charles and Ellie. Ellie represents faith and Charles reason. That’s based on their interaction in the Follow the Leader. Ellie is willing to go along even though the whole plan seems crazy while Charles seems to want to take a step back, think it over and see how crazy it all is before they procede.

    Of course, Ellie went ahead with helping Jack anyway… in doing that she ignored reason and went on faith alone I think helping Jack is what’s going to get her exiled from the island. She’s making a mistake that could possibly be avoided if her and Charles had worked together to make decisions.

  111. There’s no evidence that science caused any of the problems. And I understand what you’re saying about reason from a religious stand point but I’m throwing religion out of it as well. No religion, no science. Just faith and reason.

  112. …and wants to live herself of course. She very well could have read the Journal that Dan carried, and it could have explained the pregnancy issues of the future. I really dont think she was exiled, I think she left by choice.

  113. If she’s only pregnant with Dan in 1977 then Dan is a professer at Oxford before age 20. Dan’s accomplishments are hardly done any justice by his “youngest doctor ever at Oxford” comment. He was born before 1977. Besides, as far as we know there weren’t pregnancy issues on the island yet in 1977.

  114. I have spoke nothing of religion other than showing examples of how reasoning means nothing other than doing something for a reason that could be anything. Johns reasoning is known only to him at this point, as we have seen with him giving Richard the compass to give to his past self. I agree with your standpoint of religion and faith, no agruments from me there.
    The evidence of science causing these problems comes from the fact that the plane wouldnt have crashed it not for the ‘scientific’ swan not having its button pushed properly, hence, 815 crashes and the losties begin the journey to cause all the maylay we see this season.

  116. While I was reading A.E.S.’s last comment, a thought struck me (and somebody might’ve said something like this before), but what if the island is a place where whatever you believe will come true, sort of like a dream. I’m not saying it is a dream, just saying the whole island is a combination of everybody’s imagination. Like John believes in Jacob and miracles, and so they happen. Remember the black horse Kate say after she killed her father, maybe she was thinking about seeing that horse just before she say it on the island. Jack thought about his father and saw him walking around. Now let’s say the island has a lasting effect. Jack saw his dead father after he left the island. This whole show could be based on paranoia.

    I should have put this in theories.

  118. Dans a Quack in my opinion, intelligent, but I believe HE is the actual scientist who causes the problems…well, he and the DeGroots way back when…speaking of, where are they, or where have they gone.

    From my view, the isalnd did just fine until science reared its ugly head and started drilling, playing with the islands natural properties, and time and Hbombs, etc…

  119. I’m talking about reason, not reasoning.

    From wikipedia: Reason… refers, collectively, to mental faculties that generate or affirm propositions, by activities of the mind such as judging, predicting, inferring, generalizing, and comparing.

    I know that people with faith have a reason for doing what they do. They do it because they have faith. That’s their reason. It’s not really what I meant when I used the word.

  120. We have no idea how the island was doing before the DHARMA Initiative showed up. Say I’m correct here and Richard unseated Jacob in a coup. That would have happened long before the DI showed up and could be the actual cause of all of the problems.

    Now say John Locke really is the legitimate replacement for Jacob and by killing him he’s releasing him and completing the transfer of power. He would be setting things right on the island. That would not have happened if the DHARMA Initiative had not shown up and drilled into the ground exposing the source of electromagnetic energy causing the incident which necessitated the establishment of the numbers protocol, the neglect of which by Desmond caused the plane to crash bringing John Locke and friends to the island.

    Everything happened for a reason. We don’t know who’s to blame for what.

  121. highbrow, I would like to add that every well advanced, ancient civilization faded into obscurity because of the use of technology, in some form.

    It is said to be the weapon against man!

    Man, has the ability through the use of science to kill man! That is a fact!

    Many cultures still believe that ‘scientific’ progress is the enemy!

    Faith is, something which has withstood the test of time. While it is ‘blind’, it is a powerful thing. Miracles do happen, and cannot be explained by science!

    Lost is ‘pushing the envelope’ on these two very significant belief systems, and asking people to go outside of their comfort zones, and embrace the notion, of faith, prevailing in the end.

    Or, at least a ‘marriage’ of the two, to find common ground for the existence of both!

  122. Reason and logic lead to science and technology which develops, among other things, weapons. Faith leads into religion which has killed at least as many people.

  124. highbrow, while your statements are true, and quite literal, you are missing the ‘philosophical’ context and meaning of what fate and destiny is.

    One has to understand faith on a spiritual level, in order to grasp its full meaning.

    I will not make this the next ‘bone of contention’ between us, though!

  125. Dabs, without bones our debates wouldn’t stand… I just made that up. Feel free to quote me later.

    I don’t think I’m really missing anything. I understand fate and destiny. I’m not even really approaching them here.

    Fate and destiny, if you believe in them, apply to all. Those who follow more along the lines of faith and those who follow closer to reason. Maybe it’s Jack’s fate to be the man of reason.

  126. Speaking of fate… this is interesting Dabs…

    I’m reading “A Wrinkle in Time” off the Lost Booklist… I just go to this point where they’re talking about the battle fought throughout the universe against evil and how the combatants in the war on the side of good are religious figures like Jesus as well as artists and scientists. All on the same team fighting against something else.

  129. So what on the island is pure evil that could relate to the book?

    I know I sound stupid saying that, but I couldn’t come up with a better way to say it. 🙂

  130. I was wondering..maybe it’s not Jack but someone else’s destiny to be the “man of science”..I mean, I know he’s confused and all, but he’s acting strange lately.. 😛

  132. I think Widmore’s time is done. They’ve focused on Jack and John so much already I can’t really imagine it being someone else… Maybe Jack will get back to 2007 and kill Christian like John is going to kill Jacob. Maybe Christian is the current man of reason and Jacob the man of faith and they need to kill them in order to really take thier places. But since at least one of them is already dead the killing may be mostly symbolic.

  133. …for that he was a spirit too delicate
    to act their earthly and abhorr’d commands,
    rufusing their grand hests they did confine him
    by help of their most potent ministers,
    and in thier most unmitigable rage,
    into a cloven pine; within which rift
    imprisoned he didst painfully remain…

    Also from the book. Sound line anyone we know (or at least heard about)?

  135. oooooohhh….definitely. good quote! Jacob as Ariel, I like it…and Prospero and Miranda were stranded too….

    very good catch.

  136. Thanks… it’s a really easy catch to make since I’m sitting here reading this book for the first time right now and just coming to this part just as our conversation was turning that direction…

  137. highbrow, I am just going to throw out this one tiny discrepancy I have with your phrasing of terms.

    ‘Reason’, has no place in the terminology or understanding of Lost. It’s meaning is ‘vague’, to say the least!

    Faith & Destiny while available to all, does not necessarily apply to all. Only if you subscribe to them, which I do, amongst other beliefs.

    The scientific community is desperately looking to prove the existence of such things.

    Little is known about our Universe, but one thing is synonymous, and that is the existence of good and evil, regardless of your interpretation and/or ‘spin’ on it.

    As I mentioned above, what is so fantastic about Lost is, they are attempting to find a common ground, between faith and science through their illustration of the story.

    Like it, or not, we must embrace the two!

  138. the more I think about it, the more it rings true….I think that that is exactly the “nature” of jacob. imprisoned in his cabin forever by people who were afraid of him…and the only way to free him is to kill him.

    and was it just me, or did I detect some guilt on Richard’s face when Jacob was mentioned? could he have played some role in trapping him there? and if he didn’t, who did?

  139. Well, I said fate and destiny, not faith. And the term reason is no more vague than the term faith.

    Science doesn’t compare to faith, reason does. Science I think compares more accurately with religion. Religion and science have nothing to do with it in my opinion.

  140. I think Richard was mainly behind it. He knows some day he’s going to have to own up to that and he probably knows that that day is coming soon now that John Locke has arrived.

  141. ok, actually, I was thinking that instead of Jack and Locke, it could be Locke and Juliet…think about it..a man and a woman..the balance between faith/reason and also men/women..
    Juliet has always been very close to the men “in charge”: Ben, Jack, and then Sawyer…
    We know that Charles and Ellie were the leaders in the past; then came Ben (only Ben). What if he brought juliet to the island so that she would lead at his side, knowing some profecy that the woman who solve the pregnancy problem would also be a leader?
    Ben once told her “you’re mine”..and yeah, we know that he had a thing for her, but perhaps that’s not as simple as it appears to be.
    One thing is certain..she knows a lot!

  142. highbrow, faith is hardly a ‘vague’ terminology.

    Faith is the confident belief in the truth of or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.

    It is also used for a belief, without proof.Informal usage of the word ‘faith’ can be quite broad, and may be used standardly in place of ‘trust’, ‘belief’, or ‘hope’.

    For example, the word ‘faith’ can refer to a religion itself or to religion in general. As with ‘trust’, faith involves a concept of future events or outcomes.

    Reason, refers, collectively, to mental faculties that generate or affirm propositions, by activities of the mind such as judging, predicting, inferring, generalizing, and comparing.

    Which sounds like it is more vague?

    This is the point, I am attempting to make.

  143. I find it funny that the ‘Others’ worship Jacob, and Ben refers to him as but a man. He is a god to many, and a mere human to few. They fear something they have not seen, heard, or actually been in contact with in any way.
    Btw, why use words as theories or disriptions if they are obviously too vague to hold weight?

  144. This is fun. Can I play? Let’s talk about the meaning of “semantics”.

    Disclaimer: Anyone without a sense of humor, please disregard this post.

  146. Reason and faith both have general and specifice definitions. I tried to explain above which definition I was using. AES refered to it as reasoning which I agree is vague but it’s also a different definition of the word. Reason is the opposite of faith. Don’t blame me, please, for using the term to describe that.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reason#Reason_and_faith.2C_especially_in_the_.22West.E2.80.9D

    Maybe intellect would be better? Intellect vs. faith? I don’t know… think Emmanuel Kant…

  147. Right, well… I think we all realize what I’m talking about when I use the word reason. Faith and reason are both vague terms… until you put them in the context of our discussion.

  148. years ago before technology, intellect and ‘good’ was believing in a god…today, the intellect of the world tries unbashfully to terminate the very possibility, and prove that the ancient human existance of the past was incorrect in believing such a thing. That there is an answer that can be determined through their intelligence.
    Unfortunatly, these people were unable to be swayed, and continued throughout history having faith in such things.
    The ironic religious scientists of the world must head spin over such thoughts…

  149. Alright, AES. That was nice but we’re not really talking about cultural shifts when it comes to the application or definition of intellect. If you prefer it we can just go back to using science and faith… Like I said, I’m sure you get what I mean when I use the word “reason” just like I understand what is meant in the context of this discussion when I read the word “faith”.

  150. So out of curiosity, what is your depiction of what is going on on Lost…seriously, whether a theory or a statement…What is your answer to the riddle that is John Locke, and the enigma of the island?

    You dont buy religion, in the same way I dont…
    …I guess a more simple question would be are you a man of science…or a man of faith…?

    The show speaks nothing of reasoning/intellect vs faith,

    I guess the big question is really… who would you follow/believe…John…Jack, Richard and Ben…who would be your best bet on the island at this exact moment?

  151. highbrow, reason and intellect are synonymous. You have a varying ability to reason, depending upon your intellect!

    Reason, by the very definition of the term is subjective to the individual, based upon certain criteria, whereas faith does not require a specific criteria, in order to subscribe to its belief.

    While faith is individual in its meaning to the individual, the entire notion upon which it is founded, is a shared belief.

  152. And we dont have to talk about those things, but that doesnt mean that the indigenous ‘others’ and/or Richard are not some sort of ancients as described previously on the show and the site.

    My point is, that Jacob is worshipped as more than a man, or at least a man better than the others, feared and unknown seemingly to almost all…but in reality…he could be a guy from the future harnassing the islands capabilities mind humping everyone for sheer pleasure…

    The idea that a godlike/great man is listened to by ignorant people who know nothing other than what they have been conditioned to know is no different than people of today worshipping their own religions, beliefs, and/or faiths…And it seems John is going to show everyone that he is not the great man that they invision…thus, it is coming down to what people from one culture believe as opposed to what the truth really is…

  153. AES, Science did not resurrect John Locke!

    I am fairly certain about that!

    No disrespect to you, highbrow, but I feel, we are going down the same road as ‘the whatever happened, happened’, line of thinking.

    I hope you will keep an open mind on this one!

  156. See Dabs, that’s not the definition I’m going for here. I’m positive that you’ve heard the term “reason” used in opposition to faith.

    AES, we’ve been answering that question all along in all of our discussions about Lost. Who would I follow? Me, personally? None of them, at least not individually. My view is, as I’ve described in this post already, is that John and Jack are meant to be the leaders and that neither will lead properly without the other.

  157. That’s exactly right AES. We don’t know what resurrected him. It does not matter what resurrected him. If they never approach that subject on the show it will not add or detract anything.

    Dabs, my mind is open. It always is. In fact I’m the one here saying that faith and reason (yes, I’m sticking with the word) are both at play on Lost. If you’re going to say that it’s all faith and there’s no room for anything else then I’ll ask you to keep your mind open.

  158. AES, your point about Jacob (missed your comment) is agreed on. There may very well be nothing special at all about him and it’s more the story that people worship and follow.

  159. I agree that there is room for the science, I just view it as the evil on the show…and will forever…
    Btw, We use science and faith because that is what the creators of the show use…I could break out a wiki thesaurus and come up with several words to cover each, but for the sake of not causing more confusion than already at hand…(I mean the last episode did that already, right?), Im going to use the words of the writers and producers…man of reason/intellect doesnt quite ring the same bell, no?

  160. Feel free to use whatever words you like… I think the writers use them to avoid the confussion for the casual viewer but they aren’t really acurrately discriptive if you ask me. Apples and oranges.

    I’m leaving it open about science and faith (that is, I’m keeping an open mind). I see faith and religion, in the real world, leading to every bit as much pain and suffering (and good) as science and technology.

  161. Science is a less precise device than religion any day of the week. On an almost annual basis, everything that science tells us is corrected by another scientist or even themselves, making many of what we are taught our entire lives in school on the subject more pointless than any religion in the world today (even though I dont agree with ‘religion’).
    Most scientists themselves, regardless of their field will studiously tell you that it is not percise, and for the most part are fighting with themselves to find some alternate answer, jumping from stone to stone, until one of them slips and falls in….
    I can at least say that right or wrong, at least the religious fanatics of our world stand by their beliefs…at least until mans law steps in and says one thing is alright today, that wasnt yesterday in a particular religion…

    To stand on the fence is to avoid a side, and it doesnt seem fair to say that change/no change, loop/no loop, or science vs faith is the correct or incorrect in either way…
    You have pointed out many of your disagreements in my thoughts, respectfully I will add, and I am simply asking for what you think, if I am wrong in my beliefs…

  162. What I think about what? My views on change and loops are pretty well known to you (and everyone on this site). You want to know what I think about science and faith? I’m “on the fence” here as you say, because I think they’re both equally flawed and equally valuable. Together they form a much more complete view.

    Religion is consistent because it concedes to an inability to increase understanding and then obstinately says “this is it. This is the way it is” without attempting to understand God better than they already do. Scientific explanation evolves and changes… corrects itself because it admits that we don’t understand everything, but in the process constantly proves itself wrong.

  163. So up here on the fence is the only place to be.

    Is science less precise than religion? Not at all. If religious people made an attempt at furthering their understanding of God they might too find that they’ve been wrong about things.

  164. They did…that is what science in the long run truly is…the most intrical, expensive, worldwide scientific experiment in the history of mankind as we know it is conducting experiments as we speak trying to recreate the universe’s beginning, the big bang, to find a particle to explain the unexplainable which they call the ‘god particle’, or the Higgs Boson.
    These people originate fromm the same as you and I that long ago believed the sun was the savior and god…and many of their collegues believe that if successful, could destroy the earth.
    People are only different when labled…stripped down and lined up, they are all of the same decsent.
    To say one is right or wrong, is apparently to some…the beginning of the end…
    and before you ask, my point is that what these scientists or Dharma Initiative is doing, is not unlike what we are witnessing in our world today. Tampering with things that they are too ignorant to leave alone, even if it means their demise…even Dr Chang must have run through the possibilities of destruction when beginning his journey on the island. And as far back as the DeGroots or Hanso even knew the same.
    What one thinks they are discovering, could be demise.

  166. Lol, gods gifts?
    HA, god wants us to destroy ourselves…wants demise and destruction?
    Intelligence is a gift, as much as ignorance is.
    Dont get me wrong, I want to see what happens on the show, for better or worse, to my being correct or not, but I am fairly sure that “God” had no intention of us tampering with the space time continuom, and recreating what he started…hmmmis that last comment by you a leap of faith…or simple sarcasm?

  167. I believe in God. I don’t subscribe to a religion.

    It’s interesting. The book I’m reading goes right along with this conversation.

    Right now they’re on some other planet trying to defeat this thing called IT which is basically the collective consciousness of all the inhabitants of the planet. Basically they’ve given in to ignorance and formed into one mind in order to find safety and peace. Unfortunately, they cannot find happiness without their individuality.

    Most religions believe that God is infallible. Omnipotent, omniscient. How could his intentions possibly be violated?

  168. AES, well put! And, a very big hello!

    The very nature of the creation of the Universe is still in its infancy. Those elements are still being hotly debated and pursued, along with the existence of God, and/or the Creator, what came first, etc., etc.

    highbrow, my theories are proof of my ability to keep an open mind, and apply a logical and common sense approach to Lost.

    I will allow their accuracy to speak for themselves!

    I have never been known, nor will I ever be known as a closed-minded person.

    As a reasonably intelligent individual, I have a ‘thirst’ for knowledge. One, needs to be open-minded, in order to do that with any level of success in life, be that on a professional or personal level, IMO.

  170. I dont expect complete ignorance, just limitations and common sense on such scientific things…to discover what created the universe, or how to travel back in time would be to go where one should not go.
    Apoctolyptic paradox would more than likely destroy everything in the end, before nature/god really had a chance to do so…Good book by the way.

  171. Yes, it is.

    The problem is they’ve already gone back in time. Apocolyptic paradox did not happen.

    My point on my previous post is that, in the case of an all powerful god/creator, there wouldn’t be a place we should not go. We simply wouldn’t be able to go there.

  172. Paradox didnt occure?
    You still dont believe that that ‘memory’ Des had about Dan telling him to find his mother was just suppressed until the proper time do you?
    Or that the hit on the noggin he experienced was a coincidental memory relapse of the truth coming back to him, that he somehow for somereason covered into believing that it was the bartender that got hit long ago?
    Paradox is paradox, no matter how small the scale shows.

  174. Well, no… there is no rhyme or reason to that memory being supressed. And you said apocolyptic paradox. Since we’ve been promised a whole season left to go…

  176. I don’t see how my religious views are really pertinent. Do I believe in a garden of eden? No, I don’t. Do you? Because your views are very religious for someone who has as many problems with religion as you say you have.

    Limitations? That’s the same thing as halting scientific progress. What do we do when we reach those limits? Declare science as complete like religion? Unchangeable and never wrong?

  177. What have I said that has led you to presume I am religious, as you say?

    Right…so keep the scientific process alive, then say that this is how it is, because a microscope or telescope says so…until of course we reach a point where there is nowhere to go but to challenge the very thing that began our existance…or attempt to go back in time and see the past.
    What would be a reason why a timemachine is created…why would one want to see into the past or future?

    Seriously though, what is it that makes my statements anymore religious than yours?

  178. highbrow, please re-read what I posted! I said nothing about you being close-minded, nor did I insult you in any way!

    I only reminded you of the steadfast logic, you applied to the whole ‘whatever happened, happened’ thing, and suggested you keep an open mind on the ‘faith’ issues.

    I apologize if that offends you.

  179. Your statement about limitations.

    Science does what science does. Religion does what religion does. They’re the same thing, really. Religion tells us what to believe and so does science. Faith and reason are different. They are two different approaches to coming to the same end. Understanding.

    So you’re saying that the danger of science is that we’ll some day try to use it to kill God? I guess the only danger of religion is that we use it as an excuse to kill each other.

  181. And btw…you are the one theories ago who brought up your religious beliefs…I didnt ask, and if someone else did you shouldnt have answered if you didnt want them discussed in an open theory page about a TV show that at least partially revolves around religion…I am truly trying to not be disrespectful, just see where you are coming from.
    You are vague for the most part in many of your answers, and I am trying to find clarity in what you believe on the show.
    You seldom agree with me, pointing out my flaws in theories of mine, but never give your own true opinions on the same subjects with the exception of looping and change.

    How am I as a theorist and out in the open person supposed to discuss something as meaningful as a show about faith, when you slay my ideas, and then stand on the fence on the very same subjects?

    Its easy to do I understand, and you set yourself up for an inability to succeed because you dont let go and choose…Its a theory page on a show about faith and science, and much, much more, and I simply address your theories, or lack thereof in order to find out what makes your mind go in the direction that it does.
    I state my beliefs, because they are vital to my beliefs in the show, something that means more to me than the average television show. And I ask you to further your beliefs, that you have previously stated, in order to find the correct way to go about defending my own.

    In all honesty, if you dont want the heat in your kitchen, just say so, and I will stay off your posts, no harm, no foul.

    I was just hoping to get more definitive answers and theories from a person who seems intelligent and open enough to choose a side being the time you spend here…

    My apologies to you, and let me know if I should just ignore posts with your name attatched…

  182. All this fun on a Friday, and where I am at it is sunny and people are mowing their lawns…So this is some serious stuff guys and gals.

    So I’m just poking in to say hi.

    AES, I am curious if you have some other questions that you are trying to get at …perhaps your thoughts on where the show is headed or certain characters…?

    Or is this just an intellectually stimulating conversation that will really have no end? 😉

    Sorry for the interruption.

  186. AES, I don’t have the slightest idea what you’re talking about. You want to know how I feel about a topic on the show, read the theories and the comments. When did I not have an opinion? Change? We know my opinion on that. Time loops? We’re clear on that too. Name any topic and I’ll tell you my opinion.

    You say science and faith and you want me to pick one? Is that what you’re getting at?

  187. Hello Kim, sorry about last night, serious internet problems as of late…

    Although I could discuss things of this nature forever, I do have a direction…Im just not ready to use my compass just yet….

  188. You have a problem with religion and so do I. You have a problem with science and so do I. I’m not going to do anything to stop either of them and I’m not going to pick the lesser of the two evils and say well, religion seems a little safer… I’m not a preacher and I’m not a scientist. I’ll leave all that up to them and make up my own mind on the results that they come up with. I picked a side and it’s my side. There are more than two options.

  189. Sort of…but I understand you view on it, in a way…

    I am much more interested on who you think is the person on the show that we should label the ‘good guys’, and who shall be the ‘bad’.

    I know your dislike for Jack, and you really dont seem to be a Locke fan….I asked you the same questions a little earlier, and you stood on the fence on the subjects…I value you opinion, and am quite curious on who who believe is doing the right thing on the show…

  190. Ok, AES. If you have a question… something you want to know, just come out with it. If you thought I was a kid you were trying to impart some wisdom to then fine, go about all this trying to prepare me so I’m ready to get whatever it is you’re trying to have me believe. That is not the relationship we have. If you want to know sommething either ask or keep it to yourself.

  191. I thought so AES… you have that way about you… as I have experienced. (Although, on much less ‘touchy’ subjects, I must say!)

    So holding out for now…okay….But I will keep my eyes open to see where you go with this. I’m a simpleton at times, so hopefully I don’t miss it.

  192. I didn’t stand on the fence. I’ll go ahead and restate my answer for you though. Locke, individually, spells disaster as leader. Jack, individually, spells disaster as leader. They need each other. That is not me on the fence. There are more than two options.

  193. I know your opinions on those, which is why I said…
    “with the exception of looping and change.”

    ..in a previous comment…it was more the faith/science aspect that caused my curiousity, along with who you believe is the one to be the leader to follow on Lost…

    Relax, its not meant to be an attack, just to find out the beliefs of my stickler, lol

  194. Fine AES. But unlike Kimberly I do not have an appreciation for this long, drawn out way of asking a simple question.

    As I stated above I have never sat on the fence on any issue. I have been plain with my opinion on all of them. If we discussed something and you don’t remember what I said about it just ask me and I’ll tell you.

  195. Why do you say you were not on the fence?

    “So up here on the fence is the only place to be.”

    …your words, following other on the fence comments…not mine…I was just asking…

  196. I’ve got to throw in with Highbrow. If we had to come up with a list of pros and cons on Jack and Locke we would have a long list for both. Which is what I think the writers want; it keeps the show interesting. I wouldn’t follow Jack or Locke at this point.

  197. So then who would you follow…would you stand on the beach and wait, would you go to the DI camp, take control and be a leader yourself…and if so, what direction would you go at this point?

  198. Exaclty HurleyBird…I refreshed the page and read your post which is what I was about to write.

    This is the tension that they want us to have…on so many different fronts…Jack and Locke are the embodiment of some of the major issues. And as we’ve seen with some of the reveals about Widmore and Ben…the lines are awfully blurred sometimes, on purpose, by them.

  199. I’d be hanging out on the sub planning to buy microsoft or on Hyrdra island trying to figure out what the hell Iliana is talking about.

  200. That might make me a sheep but at this point both of our “shepards” give me the definite “it’s time for a barbeque” vibe.

  201. Ok, so it’s unfortunate that I used that phrase. It obviously wasn’t used the same way you mean it. I just meant that between your option A and option B I choose neither. A mix of two which isn’t a refusal to choose but how I feel the show will play out.

    Who would I follow? Well, if I were in the situation I’m sure I’d just go whichever way felt the most right. It doesn’t mean I have to just go along and not have an opinion on things. Of course things are different on an island… survival is a concern so you have to follow someone.

    At this point if I were in 2007 I would have only the choice of Locke. If I were in 1977 I’d probably go to DHARMA like Kate did because signing on with Jack at this point is a death sentence.

  202. highbrow, with all due respect, because you know how fond I am of you, let me say that nobody waved the banner higher, longer and louder than you did, on the whole ‘change’, whatever happened, happened, time loops, etc., etc., than you.

    You would never commit to why you were so intent that others were wrong whenever you were queried, and remained steadfast in those beliefs.

    You continually argued against them, with fervor! lol

    It is not a contest to see who is right and who is wrong. It is about exchanging thoughts and ideas about a show we all love watching, so hopefully at the end, we can all feel like we played some part in solving the mystery!

  203. And hold on…I might not necessarily ‘appreciate’ it, but I think I can see what AES does to really dig into things…I might just have more patience for it than you, Highbrow. 😉

    I get the communication tactic of “make them think it was their idea” as well as knowing the value of “if you have enough information to ask a question, then make a statement.”

    So I would like AES to say who he would follow, too!!! 🙂

  205. Hi Kim. I get what you’re saying. The problem with that is that I’ve already formed my opinion. Making it seem like it was my idea all along might work well when someone is trying to make up their mind but he’s trying to change mine so it doesn’t really come off right.

  207. And HurleyBird, I too, was going to offer up the suggestion of everyone grabbing some chicken wings and beer. 🙂

    A few comments ago, I would have added this to go along with Highbrow’s argument of “If I were in the situation…”

    It’s impossible for me to take a non-nebulous stance because I have the luxury of perspectives not afforded to the characters. Like how Jack doesn’t know that Locke is resurrected. I do.

    Or Kate didn’t know that Sawyer and Juliet were in the middle of a lovey moment on the sub…running away from the whole thing. I did.

    So, choosing who to follow is pretty hard because my mind is tainted with knowledge that the characters don’t have at this point.

  210. And AES, I’m not trying to scold you or anything or start some war but come on man, just be direct. You know, just ask a question or make a statement and assume that I know as much about stuff as you do. Because I do.

  211. Well, I guess that is that for now.

    While at the gym this morning, I did ‘mac raises’ and was cursing Kate’s shoulders under my breath. It’s ridiculous…I think they are implants.

    Off to shower and pay bills and enjoy my sunny Friday. 🙂

    Whatever shall we do after next week?

  212. Im trying to do nothing of the sort….please, hold the self flattery for someone else….

    If it comes off condesending, I apologize…to an extent…but as stated by Kim, I am digging, and trying to get a truth from someone who speaks in a vague manner…

    I asked you who you would follow on a fictional television show site and your reply consisted of running around a bush, beating it like a drum…

    And who would I follow, for better or worse, Locke…without a doubt. I would ask him for a mango and a fresh pair of shoes…possibly the secret of life, and walk with him off the highest cliff on the island….why…because he died and is now the most omnipotent person on the island.

    I accept science, and love every new idea that exists. I collect countless scientific magazines, as I have done much before Lost existed, and have studied sevral religions, my family consisting of several at this very moment, while I continually claim none as my own.

    I revel in fear and awe of the LHC experiments going on, and read every new article I can find on the slow moving (at the time) “experiment” with an unusual excitement when they speak of it up and running again.

    I dig into you because you are on here a lot, have disagreed with more of my ideas than anyone else on this site, and have virtually opposite beliefs in the show, although our real life science and religious beliefs seem to be in some sort of sync…

    I really dont know why you get bent out of shape with me questioning…not even really disagreeing with your thoughts, for the simple reason to learn why you think the way you do.
    Its not what you, or me, or Dabsi, or Kim or Locke, or Jack, or Richard, or Jacob, etc, believe, but why…why,, why, why…

    You give an answer to a math problem sometimes without the work to how you came to it, preaching your word, which I gave up on changing long ago, and all I do is question the why part and you find me condesending…well, allow me to step away from your post, because as I said, I dont mean disrespect, even though you for some reason find it in my questioning…

    As a great woman of our present says on a fairly frequent basis these days…Ciao

  213. If you want to know something just ask. Don’t analyze the question and ask me for every little bit so you can say “ok, this is how you feel”.

    As to your question of who I would follow I said nothing about a bush or a drum. I’ll go ahead and copy and paste my answer from above.

    “Who would I follow? Well, if I were in the situation I

  214. I’m probably speaking out of turn at this point, but WTH…

    “Why” is always a good question to ask. It’s probably the hardest question to ask without sounding condescending, and to answer it sufficiently depends on the people in the conversation…

    Again, tricky and challenging format for such dialogue at times.

    I have a love/hate relationship with “why” questions myself – whether about Lost, my faith, my reasons, etc.

    I hope everyone keeps coming to play and engage here. Get fired up, yes, but it seems that both AES and HB have the ability at the end of the day to keep it real. The debate, different tactics in communication are needed.

    Is it just me or was it ironic that the talk about how the show needs Jack and Locke and this is where the conversation then headed…ha!

  218. Huh? Evidence? It’s a matter of opinion really so evidice isn’t really going to come.

    The problem I’m having is that I’m asked a question, I answer and I’m told I’m being vague. I don’t see how I was being vague. I don’t like being asked the same question more than once from the same person like he’s waiting for a different answer.

  219. Nice with the copy and paste. The rebuttal from me that you copied there was not vague. It was an answer. Who would I follow, idealy? John and Jack, working together which is where I believe the show will go.

  221. Regardless, it got me the answer on the subject I was looking for, lol, sorry to piss you off in the process, but I am fairly good at unintentionally doing that by asking the truly hard questions…I hope in the end we can just shake cartoon hand and eye, and get along…

    Do you see what Kim said? I swear she reads my mind sometimes, lol…
    My intention is in no way to change anything that you believe, simply to let our beliefs somehow develope into the greater good of a theory…
    If I dont understand you, how can I discuss such things with you?

  222. AES – I get where you are coming from on asking about who to follow, given the name of the episode and all. I can also see why you especially want HB to answer, since you guys usually do have such different approaches to theories and reasons.

    I can argue with myself on this because we have the characters perspective, so that can be analyzed to no end, and then we have our perspective as the viewer, where we have a whole different/same set of issues influencing the ‘choice’.

    Doesn’t that seem to be where part of the problem is in this whole conversation?

  223. evidence of your specificity rather than vagueness? hmmm i go away for a day or two and shit hits the fan. will locke replace alpert and jack replace ben? this is what i think.

  225. Eko, now you see what you mean to this site?

    I don’t know, I’m not going to go back through anything and point out my particular level of specificity on any subject.

    I’m not angry. I’m frustrated. If you want to know something just ask. I’ll answer. If you want to know why then ask why, I’ll answer. Be direct. Don’t try to make me wonder WTF you’re getting at.

    And I’m going to leave it at that. You guys can bad mouth me or whatever… I’ll be in the car on my way home. Laters!

  228. highbrow, that is so unfair of you to say. I have been on the receiving end, of some the same, and know how frustrating it can be.

    It is difficult to put your theories out there, and have somebody who is so vocal and opinionated, continue to ‘beat the drum’ on an issue and not give way to their claims.

    Perhaps, this has caused some hurt feelings. And, perhaps this is an opportunity to learn and grow from that.

    The ‘glass is half ‘full’, not half ’empty’.

    We all like one another, so let’s be sensitive to everyone’s feelings.

    AES, is one of the most generous, kind and fair people I know. His actions have proved that to me, many times over!

    Thanks, and have a Happy Friday!

  229. I know Highbrow, but the thing is, my question of “at this exact moment” I guess carried the flame of vaugness itself.

    I really meant that if you could be with anyone, right now, for the good of the island, the world, or just yourself, who would you like to lead you?

    you answer of John and Jack was vague for me because, not only are they not in the same place…but they arent even in the same time at the moment…

    I again apologise for my laziness(?) of the wording of the question…but I was really just curious to see who you felt was the one that had the best idea to what is going on.

    I think Jack is no more short sighted than Locke in season one, and to say he is crazy and you would leave him, would be to claim the same for John-boy. They are the closest thing to being alike in comparison to anyone else on the show…

  230. I seriously tried to give a “Kates shoulders Joke” as a peace offering, and I will say, you are the best there is at that, regardless, as the ladies say, Im not in any way trying to put your ideas down anymore than you tried to put mine down on change.
    we debated through countless theories of mine and dabsi’s, on whether it was the direction it was going….and what happened…they put out an episode that had an almost identical debate between Miles and Hurley…

    People on the site here even commented on it, and a theory was even posted afterwards with our gravatars as a joke on the subject…

    I need you to understand…I am doing this for a reason, I just cannot let it out yet…

    I’ll leave you with possibly the most intelligent words I have heard on the site as of late, and allow you to think about these last two comments of mine…and seriously think about it, I urge you to…

    “without bones our debates wouldn

  232. No, no, I would never post a spoiler here…

    See, people think sometimes not just on the site, but in my life that I ask too many questions and dont give enough answers…I dont intend harm or foul. As I stated above, highbrow and I had the conversation of ‘change’ long before the conversation on the show reared its funny head, and I saw that as a sort of victory for us theorists.
    Many of the people here come up with good ideas, but present them without the proper reasoning or more importantly, seeing all angles of the subject.
    Who am I to post a theory on something that someone I respect disagrees with, without the proper research/digging into why that person feels that way?
    Instead, regardless of how it comes about, and although I do ‘dance’ a little in my questioning, I need to know not only if someone is going to disagree with my point of view, but why?
    And with that disagreement from that person, and others, and agreement from allies, I can put something together that not only makes sense, but is very hard to argue…not that I really care who disagrees in the longrun (no offense to anyone), but to make sure that I dont back myself into a corner that I cannot escape from.
    The funny part is, unlike our ‘change’ debates, I wasnt even really debating…I mean if anything, I agreed with his outside views on two of the most important things in life…science and religion.

    I know he is not, and thats why I can push his limits, but some are afraid to flat out answer a direct question on a very touchy and specific subject, it just take coaxing sometimes. And even then, if one disagrees, then it is necessary, on a site devoted to these thoughts and ideas on such a wide show, that if one aspect of why is not understood by me, I must continue to ask.
    And the same way he couldnt understand why I wasnt just straight out asking (which I was to me), I couldnt understand why he wasnt flat out answering (which he was to himself).

    The perspective of the questionee must be understood by the questionaire, in order to fully understand his own answer on the question itself.
    And although highbrow and I rarely see eye to eye on more of the ‘important’ subjects of Lost, I cannot fully complete/comprehend a theory without knowing in advance, how he is going to react or why he thinks this to begin with. Because in the long run, science-vs-faith, loop-vs-no loop, change-vs-no change isnt a gray area, at least to this point on Lost, its all there, as a great man once said, in “black and white”.

    The title of the episode and theory is “Follow the Leader”…and I think the most important question that had to be asked first was …”Who is the Leader”?

  234. I’m just a little confused if that was your reason. Not everyone on this site is going to agree with every theory someone comes up with. No matter what. Just ain’t going to happen. If you are trying to cover every base before posting a theory, that too, just ain’t going to happen.

  235. Based on what the writers have shown/told us I would say that there really isn’t any such thing as a theory, just speculation. They just haven’t told us enough.

  236. Because it is part of a theory that is not ready to be released, why so curious HurleyBird?

    Dont worry, no spoiler info, no intricate plot knowledge, nothing to that nature…

  238. Why so curious? Because I would like to hear what you think.

    Which is also pretty much the answer to your second question. I’m here to find out what people think and join in the theorizing/speculation.

    If you have some ideas that could fuel other peoples mind (mine included), I for one would love to hear them.

    I for one know that when the finale comes, I will probably have been totally wrong on everything that I posted but I put it out there for people to mull over. I find it gratifying on those rare occasions when I am right because at least it was out there. I got brutalized on a theory I post a long time ago on another site that turned out to be spot on.

  239. And that my friend, is why you should never be afraid to post what you believe…Im not sure which you are referring to, but nice job regardless…
    ;]

  240. hello highbrows!

    i get the impression from yor other posts that you didnt really enjoy this episode, from an information point…i think.

    i thought the episode was really good, so just a few things i picked up on.

    i guess it was really obvious, but when chang woke up to feed his seed (oh no the rymes have started flowing!) the time was 8:15, but that only seems significant for obvious reasons, or is it just ironic, or…a coincidence? perhaps the island is running on certain numbers its been programmed by. (i wonder if the island learned to count of the Count seaseme street, one smoke monster, ah ah ah! two smoke moneter…ah ah ah!) yes anyway, the numbers, quite interesting. the choice of film work also, we never saw his face, it was very impersonal, almost as if we were supposed to pick upon soemthing els other than changs himself.

    the part were locke takes ben and richy up to the plane and sees himself! that was great you have to admit! and very clever on johns part! i think at some point he must have given the compass to himself? i think the compass will become important later on.
    some people question why the others didnt flash when injured locke was being tended by richard. i think this has two possiilities, one there is a perimator, like faraday said “we must have been inside the perimator”. second reason is its only a flash for that period of time not the period the onlooking john and bens time. or whatever other time there was.

    i would like to mention, about the two john lockes, is that i implore you to watch a film called Primer, i got dabs to watch it, and it really helped her in the hypathetical knowledge of time travel.

    anyway, too tired to type on, sorry for writing to much poop.

    x

  241. so… did you hear that the boat captain who got saved from those somali pirates was being celebrated in new york, and they wanted to give him free new york mets tickets, but they were playing the pittsburgh pirates……

    akkkkkwwaaard

  242. i tried to lighten the mood, and misspelled awkward. everyones yelling at each other for doing the same thing they have done in the past on this site at one time or another. including me. we arent going to agree and that shouldnt spoil our relations. even after the “truth” comes out those who want to stick to their guns will find a way to interpret what they saw to fit their theories/views. so lets all shake hands and promise to not hit each other.

  244. Kinda leary to voice an opinion…but Locke was cured…no longer paralized as soon as they crashed. He felt his destinty was on island, he believes. He left to save island,guided by Shepperd, was murdered, returned to island in casket and is resurected. Same as Christion. So “Island” has helped both. They have to be on same team for coming war. They most likely are brothers. Christian says he can speak for Jocob. Now Claire’s there, hanging in Jacobs cabin…resuerected…yep, think so. Locke IS screwing with Ben. He’s not gonna kill Jacob, he’s gonna prove to everyone that Ben’s a big fat liar, an free “Jacob” who is resurected people who have been chosen by the island to fight the coming war. Bet we will see Charlie in there too. He seems to have been resurected too, to help get Hurley back. Anna Lucia had a connection to Christion,before he died, and she too seems to have been resurected, to help Hurly and Syid. She said “Libby,says hi!” implying she’s been hanging with Libby. Probably in the cabin. Right before the frieghter blew, Christian appears and says “You can go now Micheal” Boom…no way Micheal had time to get off alive. He’s hanging out in the cabin now too. Getting ready for the coming war that Widmore is gonna wage. That cabin is probably crammed to the rafters with past leaders and believers that the “Island” has chosen. Widmore ran the show for thirty years, then Ben took it from him. Now John has taken it from Ben. So Widmore probably did take it from Jacks grandad, way back when. As soon as Jack comes to believe in the island and its powers and his destiny to be there…the plane had to crash to bring them all there…can’t be changed and shouldn’t be changed…he’s gonna step up and be the man. He and locke will lead war against widmore, and win darnit. I’ll shut up now.

  245. I am curious…where did all the Christian and Locke are brothers talk suddenly arise from?
    Nothing has changed in the past episode that would lead me to believe that it is true….not that its not, but why now…An entire season and now after last episode this builds momentum…

    And damn it Diz, be confident…some of your thoughts have pretty good reasoning behind them, even if they end up wrong, dont keep doubting yourself. I like your logic behind things, even if it turns out incorrect, I think you shouldnt doubt yourself so much.

  246. Just some of the discussion here that reminded me of something I’ve speculated before… that Christian and John are half-brothers with a father named Jacob in common. I think that either the “you must kill your father” thing is either complete crap or this is the case because, as we all know, John cheated. He did not kill his father he had Sawyer do it for him. What reminds me of that line of speculation is that now we see Locke on a mission and this time I think he’s actually going to kill someone. Makes sense to me that the person is his father. You’re right, there really isn’t any new information given to support the brothers claim.

    Dabs, sorry about snapping. Lost in the moment, all that. I think we really do all like each other (well, I like all of you at any rate)… This is fun.

    Eko, nice attempt at the levity. The Pirates! HA! Even if they weren’t playing the Pirates I think I’d pass on the Mets tickets… better to be back at sea with the Somalis!

    So just to go back and actually answer the question that was asked… at this point I would follow John Locke. The only reasons I have for that is that nobody seems to be trying to kill his group and he’s able to provide food. I know those aren’t the kind of reasons you were looking for but that’s what I got.

  247. Gracious for your answer…

    As you can hopefully tell from my last few comments, I am really NOT trying to get under skin, as much as push the envelope to the point of where at least one of us has to be correct, and reasoning behind the answer is more important to me than the answer in most cases, and COULD, but does NOT have to be what would be the factors to change ones mind to see the other persons side…whether an agreement is formed or not.

    On a lighter side, I do like and respect you and the others that I debate with on a consistent basis, otherwise a debate really wouldnt be worthwhile.

    To be honest, as much as I would like to be correct on the things that I say here, it is MUCH more fun to have my mind blown, and get something that NOBODY sees coming…lol, but if someone has to call it, I would prefer, as anyone here, that its myself, and am more than willing to answer questions and reasoning behind anything that I theorize.

    Like I said, lets shake cartoon hands and eye and be friends….but the debates will not end until the final episode I am sure…

  248. browman, thanks for the apology. I guess I was a casualty of war! lol Caught in the middle again! “A rose between two thorns”. lol

    I have told you before, that I love you more than my luggage! lol

    I do like people to debate also, and we do that to hopefully clarify the issues we are presented with, so we can move on to other issues in the show.

    AES is correct, when two viewpoints that are opposing are presented, the evidence and debate provided should resolve the differing opinions to some degree.

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