Alpert’s Suicide
A few months ago before the site went down I posted an item entitled “Schrodinger’s Island” in which I used the concept of Quantum Suicide. In that original posting I used it as a way around the Grandfather Paradox that seems to be set up if Jack and company are successful in preventing the Swan from ever being built, therefore causing Flight 815 not to crash, leading to Jack and company not ever being there to stop the construction of the Swan, which leads to 815 crashing after all…and on and on in a circle. Since that time I have hit upon several other ways to apply the Quantum Suicide concept to Lost.
But what is Quantum Suicide? The site How Stuff Works (here is the link http://science.howstuffworks.com/quantum-suicide.htm ) has a ral good, easy to follow article about it. Quantum Suicide is basically the Schrodinger’s Cat thought experiment from the POV of the cat. In the Schrodinger’s Cat thought experiment (this is covered in the Quantum Suicide article in the section about the Copenhagen Interpretation) a cat is placed in a box. This box is built in such a way that the only way to check on the condition of the cat is to actually open the box and observe the cat. In this box there is also a phial of poison hooked up to a Geiger counter. There is also some radio active material in the box. If the Geiger counter detects any decay from the radioactive material then the phial is broken, releasing the poison which kills the cat. If no decay is detected the cat lives. An observer on the out side has no way of knowing if the cat is dead or alive without opening the box. As long as no one opens the box, the cat is both dead and alive. when some one opens the box it forces one of the two outcomes to become a reality. Until someone looks in on the cat, the cat is in a state of superposition.
Quantum Suicide carries out a similar experiment but from the point of view of a man who is locked inside a box. The man can not see, hear, or get any information from the outside of the box and no one can get any information from the inside of the box. There is a gun in the box aimed at the man’s head. there is also a quark particle in the box. The gun is hooked to a detector and is rigged in such a way that if the detector finds the quark spinning to the right, the gun is fired and the man is killed by a bullet. But if the detector finds the quark spinning to the left then the trigger is again pulled but a bullet does not fire. At the point that the gun’s trigger is pulled the universe splits in two where in one universe the man is killed, and in the other the man lives. As long as no information escapes the box as to the condition of the inside, the man exists as both a breathing person and a very dead corpse, but the version of the man that is alive does not realize that there is a version of him dead in the box also. He only percieves the universe he is in where he is very much alive. As long as no outside observer opens the box, the man can live forever. But if someone does open the box then that observation forces either one or the other scenario into existence while the other is destroyed.
For the last 5 seasons we have been watching the exploits of a group of people on an Island that the rest of the world, and not even God, according to Ben, can see. And on this Island there is a man named Richard Alpert who it seems never ages. I belive that the Quantum Suicide concept may be the explaination for Alpert not aging. The Island is like the box in the experiment and Jacob has some how altered Alpert in such away that Alpert will never age or die as long as the Island is not observed by the outside world. But there is also a version of Alpert on the Island that is very old. It can not be percieved however because that Alpert exists in another universe. As long as the outside world doesn’t observe The Island, Alpert will continue to not age. I believe that we will see that Alpert has lost his anti-aging aspect already, and the reason is the same as the reason that Nemesis escaped from the cabin.
Until recently there has been a version of the Island where Nemesis remained inprisoned in the cabin and a version where he escaped the cabin. However something has happened that forced the Nemesis escaping scenario into being. And the same event triggers Alpert to lose his anti-aging ability. That event was the destruction of the Swan in season 2. When the Swan imploded it caused the Island to be briefly detected by the outside world. This caused the end of the superposition of universes on the Island and forced only one to exist. And the universe that came to exist was the one where Nemesis escapes from the cabin. And since one universe was forced into existence Alpert loses his anti-aging ability and becomes subject to aging and death like the rest of us mortals.
Hi Achalli, this is an outstanding theory! I love your thoughts and how you tied Richard Alpert into it. He is one person who is surrounded by mystery so far.
Fortunately, our conversations on Flashforward have given me understanding of the Quantum Suicide Theory. There are many parallels between Lost and FF that are derived from the same aspects.
Having said that, I feel you have presented a logical conclusion to what may be occurring with Richard Alpert. I can’t recall the theory offhand, but it was mentioned that Locke might be the replacement for Richard.
Whether or not that is true, your theory still leads me to believe that Richard could have fallen victim to the effects of Quantum Suicide, when Nemesis found his ‘loophole’ and everything on ‘the island’ went awry.
The other aspect of this that rings true for me is, that Richard may in fact have started the ‘aging’ process, and why ‘the rush is on’ to play out certain aspects of his role, before it is too late for his participation in present.
The Incident created a few unanticipated events that were not calculated into the equations. These aspects will be revealed to us in Season 6.
Love the theory! It is extremely well written, thought out and presented beautifully.
I think that ABC is linking both Lost and Flashforward. There are a lot of things popping up on Flashforward that are Lost related. More than just haveing someone who acted in both shows. If anyone else hasn’t seen it yet, you should watch Flashforward. It contains just as much to theorize on as Lost does.
Flashforward just mentioned quantum suicide in it’s latest episode and I just about fell out of my chair because I’ve been on the quantum suicide kick for a few monthes now.
Achalli, I am wondering if you have any speculations, as to how this will effect what we may see of Richard and this potential situation in Season 6.
What do you see as being the repercussions and fall-out from ‘his’ Quantum suicide?
Dabs, I haven’t thought about that yet. That is a real good question. I’ll have to swell on that for a while. One possible repercusion is that he loses his position on the Island.
Achalli, I will also place some thought into those aspects as well.
I think you are correct in saying, that one of the repercussions might be that Richard will lose his position and statues on ‘the island’.
This leads me to the question of, who will be in line to take on the role he has been playing.
Achalli, I have a further thought on Richard and the role he’s been playing.
That is, Richard for lack of a better term, seems to be the ‘gatekeeper’ of ‘the island’, aside of being Jacob’s right hand man.
Presuming that ‘the island’ will continue past the time-line of Lost, I think we can reasonably conclude that ‘another’ will resume his post. I think this could also be said about somebody else assuming Jacob’s role too.
I guess we should be looking amongst the main characters on Lost, for potential candidates to be their successors.
Just to throw a spanner in the works, the theoretical nature of quantum suicide means that as soon as it is observed, the subject is no longer immortal. I’m not sure then how it can explain Richard’s agelessness as he has been seen by heaps of people, even if you say the people on the island as contained in the box, but people from off the island have interacted with him. Juilet, Locke, Locke’s foster mum. He has travelled off island so I don’t get how the experiment has remained closed up until the 815 crash.
On Flashforward – I haven’t watched it as I’m waiting till lost finishes, then it can replae it for me BUT if they have outwardly mentioned quantum suicide then I think that makes it even less likely to be the case on Lost. Imaging JJ, Carlton and Damon have put all this time and effort into Lost, to create a show with such mystery, knowing how it will reslove and taking huge care to reveal pieces at a time. then ABC come along and say ‘Hey we’ve got this new show to fill the Lost gap and we’re going to overlap them by a season, use some of your actors… to get interest and there’s going to be stuff on quantum suicide in the first season.’ I’d think the the Lost guys would go ‘Hold up, that’s going to blow our 5 season lead up.’
I may well be shown to be wrong, but I just can’t reconcile how this could work or be explained in the final season.
Please forgive my awful spelling in that comment – must be too early in the morning 😉
Tas, you are correct that Richard leaving the Island does put a wrinkle into this. However, maybe whatever Jacob did to Alpert is suspended when he leaves the Island. Perhaps he does start aging again and as long as he doenLt spend a significant time off Island, then the aging doesn’t show. When he returns to the Island his aging is frozen again.
Ok, but how can that fit with the theory of quantum suicide. A fountian of youth would fit that idea better, if he doesn’t keep drinking he gets old. I’m just not sure how those ideas could be used to explain this stuff in Lost, mostly because it’s all theoretical – you can’t actually do it.
There are too many long shots in this theory. It will simply not happen. Throughout Lost, there has been numerous physical and un-physical (impossible) events, but none of them ever suggested that they would go into the whole observer causing events idea. The schrodinger experiment does not apply to cats in boxes, it is a way of illustrating what happens to very small particules in physics, and nothing suggests in Lost that there is such a thing as an observer changing the events simply from the act of observing.
A much more parsimonious solution to Richard’s role is the theory that he got killed by Jacob and his image is now used by MIB. So Richard is not at the service of Jacob. It would sound very weird to me if Richard would actually be on Jacob’s side : he always did everything he could to keep Ben from seeing Jacob. When asked by John Locke how is it possible that a man doesn’t age, he says : ‘I’m this way because of Jacob.’ That means Jacob killed him. And now that he’s dead, his body somehow can be used just like John Locke. Now John Locke replies : ‘And that is why I’m going to do this, to thank him for what he’s done for us’. That’s sarcasm between 2 dead people who have been given a second chance by MIB.
I just would like to add some general comments to this theory and some of the comments made.
Firstly, in regards to the ‘observatory’ aspects of the show. Given that there has been an effort on behalf of the writers to provide John Locke with the alias of Jeremy Bentham, who designed The Panopticon, I would have to say that these ARE in fact aspects written into the show, and therefore a logical conclusion to draw. the writers are not known for throwing things out there for no good reason!
I think that it is unlikely that Jacob and Nemesis are the only ‘powers that be’ on ‘the island’. Somebody else may very well be watching!
There is no evidence at present to insinuate that Richard is under the control of Nemesis. I do however appreciate the fact how Jj23 is arriving at the conclusion that Jacob killed Richard though. But, we still do not have enough background to draw any conclusive evidence to infer any kind of relationship between Richard and Nemesis.
As for the Lost writers, they hardly cornered the market on writing science fiction, albeit they do it masterfully, but they will hardly be the last to ever write science fiction using similar theories.
In the first episode of Flashforward, they showed an Oceanic #815 Billboard stating that they had a perfect flying safety record for over 30 years. As the show is in present time, I think this IS a fairly good indicator that the two shows are in fact linked, and the writers of that show are using some of the same scientific theories we see in Lost.
If anyone is interested flashforward the tv show was based on a book by Robert J. Sawyer. I haven’t read it in case there were spoilers for Lost in it so I have no idea if it is any good or not.
I’m not saying they have the corner on all sci-fi ideas, just that I would be surprised for ABC to put on a show linked in concepts and then talk about the big surprise reveal in Lost, before it is aired, knowing how us theorists would grab onto it.
Taking that out of the picture I’m just really unclear as to how a purely theoretical notion such as quantum suicide can be used to explain Richard. I haven’t read anything on the topic that fits.
I’ve considered the point of origin for change to be when Desmond forgot to push the button the first time causing the crash of 815. But either way would work.
Roland, Acahlli has read the book and was kind enough to provide me with full overview. So far that show has covered many of the scientific elements we have seen in Lost. Fate, destiny and change are also main themes.
ABC announced some time ago, that they were actively pursuing a show that could fulfill Lost viewers needs once the show ended. This is why Flashforward was adapted for television.
Considering that ABC is interested in the bottom line (cash) and holding viewers interest, it is naive to think they wouldn’t use all of the brilliant marketing skills available to them to keep viewers watching their network on both shows.
We may be getting closer to what is going on inside the Temple. Maybe some remote viewing so every one on the island can be under observation.
Sorry to disappear for a bit everyone, I had technical problems on my end.
First off Dabs and I have discussed Flashforward on another site and from what we have seen it would appear that the two shows are being linked. Besides the billboard that Dabs mentioned the numbers are popping up in the background. The second episode zoomed in on a parking lot and featured a prominently placed spot #23. Also the Bedfords live on Sawyer Lane.
Now to the question of my using a purley theoretical concept like Quantum Suicide to try to explain Alpert. Although there is a flaw with the example I don’t think it means that the theory is wrong. The producers have stated before that they have scientific explainations for Losts many mysteries. Where Alpert is concerned Quantum Suicide is the closest thing in science that can explain him. Just because this concept is purely theoretical does not mean that it can’t be used to explain things on Lost. Time travel is a purely theoretical concept at this point and yet it has played a major role in Lost already. We’ve have also been asked to accept an Island that jumps about the globe and yet doesn’t cause any geological disturbances when it does. And then there’s Desmond’s time leaping conciousness. Quantum Suicide is a scientific concept that fits Alpert’s situatuion better than other ideas that have been proposed for him IMO.
poor cat…..
Achalli, what I mean by purely theoretical is not that they haven’t managed to do it yet, but that with quantum suicide the very process of observing the experiment renders it finished. As soon as someone outside observes it, it doesn’t exist as a closed system and the immortality ceases. From what I understand on FF, there was a complete mass unconsciousness where NO ONE was observing. One of the major themes throughtout Lost has been observation, from Benthem’s panopticon to the security cameras, to the surveillance, to the Pearl station and ideas of who is watching, is anyone actually watching, who’s watching the watchers? I don’t see how they could turn around and base a major premise of the show on an idea which requires absolutely NO observation. As soon as you open the box, it’s all over – the island as a box has never been closed.
Anyone who has actually watched Flashforward, knows that there were people awake during the blackouts and observing what was occurring.
Sorry, I haven’t seen Flashforward as I said earlier but know a bit about the book, which is where I ‘knew’ about the unconsciousness. My point would then stand to FF as well. From everything I’ve read, the idea of quantum suicide needs there to be no observation for the experiment / immortality to continue. If you guys have extra info that says something different I’d love to read it to see how it could work – just haven’t found anything that fits that
Tas, I believe Achalli has provided a link to Quantum suicide in his theory, and is applying this to Richard Alpert, for anyone wishing to further investigate or to agree/disagree based upon its merits.
Your understanding of Quantum suicide and how it relates to Lost & FF are obviously quite different. You are entitled to view it any way you wish.
You have repeatedly disagreed without offering up another plausible explanation and/or theory to explain Richard, which is the entire point of theorizing. Nothing is learned or gained from it.
Losts-Columbo it’s nice to hear from you. Old Erwin would be the last person to ask to look in on Tabby while away on vacation.
Ifoundmyloophole, I like your thoughts on Richard. I can totally accept that he has been working for Nemesis unknowingly. It just shows that Nemesis is an even more masterful manipulator then Ben is. Maybe some of that has rubbed off on Richard.
Now as for FF. In the most recent episode, Simon and Lloyed are playing poker to determine if they will step forward and reveal to the world that their experiment was responsible for the flashforward. Lloyd wants to reveal to the world what their experiment did and Simon doesn’t want to reveal what happened. Simon mentions to Lloyd that he can’t lose and that every hand they play he will always beat Lloyd and when Lloyd asks Simon why, Simon replies that it is due to Quantum Suicide and that they’ve already played their hands over and over and that Simon has always and will always win. I am proposing something similar with regards to Richard Alpert. Of all the things I’ve seen on this site that explain Richard’s condition this is the one that comes closest to having a scientific basis. Some have proposed that he has been killed and brought back to life similar to Christian. Others have proposed that his agelessness is due to the Island’s temporal movements and that when the Island catches up with the present he will start aging again. These theories are based even less in science then what I’m proposing. What I’ve laid out is based on a scientific concept that comes very close to explaining Richard’s condition.
I have read Achalli’s link and the big thing that stood out for me was “This thought experiment is called quantum suicide. It was first posed by then-Princeton University theorist Max Tegmark in 1997 (now on faculty at MIT). A thought experiment is an experiment that takes place only in the mind. ”
The other scientific ideas on Lost have been quantifiable – casimir effect. How do you begin to explain the unquantifiable, a branch of science that even scientists go OMG! at to the everyday viewer of Lost? How do you show that on TV in a way that people can accept and understand? The producers have said that the show can stand on it’s own as a text. Yes there are those of us who love to discuss and research all of this stuff, but not everyone does that, so the show needs to be understandable just as a TV show.
On the just disagreeing and not offering any other options, I had posted something before the crash, but it isn’t up anymore, I hadn’t reposted it as it had already been discussed but when I get home I’ll repost for you guys to have a look at. It isn’t my intention to be all negative – just didn’t want to warp the comments into my own theory on Richard, so sorry if it came across like that and I’m not saying it won’t be quantum suicide, I’m just stuggling to see how at the moment with what I know about it – really just questioning.
On the FF, wouldn’t quantum theory also say that Lloyd has also won every hand?
The Lost writers have always claimed that Lost is a show about science fiction. That may or may not be something that is comfortable for you and/or others to accept.
In five seasons of Lost, the writers have provided us with scenarios which are based in the realms of science and/or science fiction. Some theorists like to explore those avenues in their theories.
The site has been and will remain a ‘diverse’ one with full appreciation to all theories and theorists who post on the site. Everyone is unique, and has something unique to bring to the table for discussion.
If a theory or the subject matter is not to your liking, you are not obligated to post comment, agree or disagree. Especially, if the premise you are disagreeing upon is based upon the way you feel the show should play out in a manner you deem appropriate.
I think ‘tolerance’ is the word I am searching for here. We all post on this site, in hopes of learning from one another about a show we all love and a mystery we we would all like to help solve.
Positive exchange is how we all learn.
Hi dabs, I really think you’ve misunderstood my intentions. I’m not sure how this theory would work and I’m asking questions to try and get a better perspective of how. I throw in my reasons as to why I’m having trouble with it to contextualise my issues/questions. I come from an education background and so this is how I am everyday, I ask questions I keep asking why? how? please explain more? not to be negative, that’s just how I get things clearer in my own head. If I thought it was a completely baseless idea, yes I wouldn’t comment, I guess I’m asking you guys to see my questions as a way for me to get more insight into an idea to have a diverse discussion. I haven’t just said it’s stupid, I’m asking questions, to find out more. These posts always give me something to think about and take away. I’ve always found that Achalli in particular often sees things differently to me, I enjoy getting into a back and forth discussion where I don’t expect either of us to change our minds, I just like to push for extra clarification for myself. I do apologise if that seems to be negative and intolerant, it is my intention to have positive exchange and I really hope I haven’t offended anyone as that is certainly not what I meant.
To be honest guys, I don’t get how the old Schrodingers Cat theory could apply to Lost.
It’s clearly intended as metaphor – like “If a tree falls in a forest…”
Hi Achalli, I definitely think the analogy you have taken from the conversation between Lloyd and Simon explains your theory.
I also feel there is a further connection with what was stated about ‘the future’ being predicted mathematically. This is reminiscent of the Valenzetti Equation. I think this may also illustrate to us that ‘the observer’ does exist. And, that someone is attempting to manipulate the future, scientifically/mathematically. Is this what is creating the ‘dilemma’ being played out on ‘the island’? Is this where the opposition comes into play, and what the war is all about?
Your theory opens many more doors for consideration.
Tas, even though Quantum Suicide is a thought experiment I don’t believe that that disqualifies it to be used as the basis for theories on this site. Writers for shows do not always use a concept as it is originally intended or propsed. On Lost it has been said that the Island exhibits a Casimer Effect and yet in actuallity it is an experiment that is done and exhibited on a small scale. According to Lostpedia:
The Casimir effect is the attractive force between two uncharged metal plates that are placed very near to each other in a vacuum. The attraction arises due to a reduction in the energy of the ground state of the electromagnetic field between the two plates. Because fluctuations in the field between the plates can only have wavelengths equal to or smaller than the distance between the plates, the vacuum electromagnetic field has less energy between the plates than outside of them.
It has been suggested that the Casimir forces have application in nanotechnology, in particular silicon integrated circuit technology based micro- and nanoelectromechanical systems, and so-called Casimir oscillators.
In Lost The effect is referenced in the Orchid Video as a way to explain the mysterious properties of the Vault. It is unknown exactly in what way the Casimir effect affects the island, to date.
I don’t see what would stop the writers from adapting other scientific concepts to suit their needs for the story.
Dabs, it didn’t occur to me to make a connection to the Valenzetti Equation. I think that if there is another observer that we haven’t been introduced to yet then they would have to be on the Island.
Tas, what I think we are disagreeing on is how strict of an interpretaion we are taking with the Quantum Suicide concept. As I stated, the writers of any given show do not necessarily adhere strictly to what they base things on.
I feel that all of the explanations on how QS could be used to explain Richard’s agelessness have been to say it just does or they said it on Flashforward, or they use other scientific ideas. As a teacher I don’t accept ‘just cos’ as an answer, so that’s why I’m asking questions. Telling me about the casimir effect doesn’t describe HOW quantum suicide can be used. The casimir effect is quantifiable, has been done and measured – Lost uses the theory on a larger scale, but it hasn’t been twisted. Quantum suicide specifically talks about a guy being repeatedly shot at as a way to explain many worlds (wherever there is two or more options, both happen, spliting the universe over and over again). I just want to know how you think the writers can use and explain how this idea goes to Richard’s agelessness, becauses it is a TV show with limited boundaries in which to show a story. I just want you tell me about quantum suicide, not FF or other scientific premises, that’s all.
I don’t want to sound like I’m dumping on your theory Achalli. I’m intrigued and I want to know more about why you came to this idea yet I’m finding the discussion frustrating to give an eg of this. It’s kind of like you asked me how the sky is blue? and I told you it was because God made it like that, the grass is green so he used colour a bit and the sky on Venus is blue. Great, but I haven’t answered your question. That’s a bit how I feel, just want ot know where you are coming from with just quantum suicide.
This is how I applied Quantum Suicide in this theory. In quantum suicide the universe keeps splitting into different versions. The occupants of each version are unaware of the other versions. On Lost we are seeing the version wherein Richard has been made ageless by Jacob, but,as I propose it, only as long as the Island (not Richard)remains cloaked from the rest of the world. When the Swan implodes, it results in the world momentarily being observed by the outside world ( via the two guys at the listening post who detect the E/M anomally) and Richard loses his anti-aging property. A lot of fuss has been made by Ben, Locke, and the Others about not revealing the Island to the rest of the world. I feel that the concept of Quantum Suicide is a good explaination because it’s description suggests that it is closely in line with what we have seen, particulary with the Island not being detected by the rest of the world except whith the destruction of the Swan. As I see it Richard’s condition closely resembles Quantum Suicide. Take it or leave it, I consider this closed.
Achalli, I love it! This could explain alot, and could basically be applied to anybody on the island. Also, Ben mentions to Locke a “magic box” in an episode. I wonder what would happen if somebody left the box…
Great theory!
Dharma Dancer, I’m sorry I didn’t respond sooner. I’m glad you enjoyed it. The Quantum Suicide concept can be applied to a lot of things, not just people. In regards to the box, I think it was opened already with the destruction of the Swan in season 2. For a brief moment the Island was revealed to the rest of the world.
talking about ben’s “magic box” (and the Quantum Suicide)…reminds me of Pandora’s box – could you handle the consequences if you opened it?
Sorry it took me awhile to respond to you Helentink. I think anyone who is willing to accept the consequences for anything they do is a truly powerful person.